Is pirating really that bad ?!?

[Zweihander]

Honestly, I'm all for non-profit piracy. It's how I'm able to play any Dreamcast shmup made from launch to 2005. Here's the thing: I love (well, hate, but you know what I mean) Ikaruga. I loved my CDR of it so much, I eventually bought it, for $60, as well as a used copy of the NGC version for $25. That brings me to another importaint point here: out-of-print games. I have a CDR of Bangaioh. The only market I'm harming is the viciously-priced after-market on Ebay. If I was one of the 0.02% of the human population with a heavily-modded Saturn which could play CDR's, you could bet your ass I'd pirate Radiant Silvergun, seeing as:
1. $160+ is ridiculous. I've played the game. It is amazing, but it's not the best shmup ever.
2. Treasure is being obnoxious by re-releasing games like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, and Dynamite Headdy, without re-releasing RSG. Assholes.
Getting back on track: ESPGaluda is my favorite game of all time. It got me hooked on the shmup genre, it was my introduction to manic shmups, and impressed me enough to buy a legitimate copy of it, about a year later. Without non-profit, friend-to-friend piracy, I wouldn't be the gamer I am today. Hell, I wouldn't be making this post, because piracy got me into the genre.

[Shatterhand]

I can't understand the "gaming is expensive" argument. I keep hearing people complaining how games are expensive and bla bla bla.

Cars are expensive too. That's why I don't collect them.

Piracy is theft. You don't see people saying "Ohh, this car are too expensive, so I stole it" or "T-shirts are too expensive, How can I know every T-Shirt if I don't have money to buy them all? I have to steal them"


Not that I condone piracy, but THIS specfic argument makes no sense to me.

Zweihander arguments are better in my point of view

[Zweihander]

I can't understand the "gaming is expensive" argument. I keep hearing people complaining how games are expensive and bla bla bla.

Cars are expensive too. That's why I don't collect them.

Piracy is theft. You don't see people saying "Ohh, this car are too expensive, so I stole it" or "T-shirts are too expensive, How can I know every T-Shirt if I don't have money to buy them all? I have to steal them"


Not that I condone piracy, but THIS specfic argument makes no sense to me.

Zweihander arguments are better in my point of view

Sup, Shatterhand. I should have also mentioned, I don't really play most of my pirated DC games anymore. Zero Gunner 2, Gunbird 2, Giga Wing 2, (lotta 2's there..) as well as some of the PS2 Psikyo collections, are never played anymore... I basically keep them around in case anyone else wants to have a go at 'em. Again, games like Ikaruga, Rez, and ESPGaluda, which I truly love, I eventually buy.

Diving into buying games without knowing them well enough, more often than not, leads to heavy regret. I pre-ordered Devil May Cry 2, and shelled out $50 for it, brand-new. I have games like that to thank for my "pirate" habits. (on that note, I completely lost faith in Capcom until Chaos Legion came along. ) For me, buying a game-- unless it's by companies that haven't let me down, like Cave-- is like ordering a T-shirt without knowing its size, and no refund if it doesn't fit.

Pirating licensed material is morally wrong, but then again, so is charging $50+ for a piece of garbage. Piracy increases the price of goods, and the increasing price of goods promotes piracy. It's an argument of the chicken or the egg, when it comes down to it. It's unwise to get into piracy unless:
1. It's an out-of-print game, which the developers gain no profit from no matter where you get it from;
2. If it's a new release, only do so if it's an evaluation copy. i.e., if you enjoy it, feel obligated to buy it, and if you don't like it, then you just made yourself a shiny new drink coaster, haven't you?

[SteevTee]

Back in the days when I played on my ST, I used to buy most of my games full price (~£15 - £25), and then about 10% of my game collection consisted of pirated games, some of which I probably would never have had the opportunitiy to play, as I never saw them in the shops.

Now a mate of mine would borrow any of the new games I had recently bought, in exchange for lending me one of his copies. Perhaps I was a little naive, but it took me a long time before I realised he was copying them. I was peeved when I realised, cos I spent all that money on games, which he could get for the price of a few floppy disks.

Just made me think how game companies feel knowing this goes on all the time.


Another view on game prices is that today, the video game business is much larger than in the 80's and 90's, there are more staff to pay, production costs etc: games today are created by teams of dozens of people, unlike a far smaller group in the 80's.

To me game prices have not risen to stupid prices, maybe just above inflation. They are cheaper today than they have been in the past, I remember when Virtua Racing came out on the Mega Drive and it cost something like £70.

[system11]

Ok, in essence this is true but it simply doesn't work this way just because there are not enough jobs for the youngsters.
When I was like 14 I could get a job bringing around adpapers.
I had to walk around for over 4 hours 1 day, sometimes 2 days a week.
If I did that I would get like 15 Dutch Guilders for the whole month.
That's like $7.50.

I was still at school. I bought a bucket, a sponge, and some car wax. I worked both days each weekend, washing cars with a friend. After two months, I had enough money to buy my first Amiga. This was back when they cost a LOT of money. Over 250ukp I think. He bought a new BMX bike.

[doctorx0079]

Saved lawn-mowing money and money from doing chores, for ~18 mos., to buy a SNES with Super Mario World.

I want to point out here to the whiners that Taito Legends is inexpensive and 100% legal. If we keep buying it here in the States maybe they will give us Taito Legends 2 (which yes, has more shmups in it).

[Valgar]

2. Treasure is being obnoxious by re-releasing games like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, and Dynamite Headdy, without re-releasing RSG. Assholes.

Don't fucking knock Treasure. Re-releasing a game isn't just a walk in the park. Sega published all 3 of the games above and they were for Megadrive.

[Alpolio]

I didn't have any money either, so I put my first Genesis and 3 games on a credit card.

[jiji]

2. Treasure is being obnoxious by re-releasing games like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, and Dynamite Headdy, without re-releasing RSG. Assholes.

Obnoxious? What the hell? JP Alien Soldier alone goes for $150 easily, and more on the US market. The conversion is sterling, aside from some minor sound issues. Sega and Treasure give you a way to play the game as it was intended for $25, and you complain?

[zaphod]

he's not complaining about the games that are being re-released. he's complaining that Radiant Silvergun is NOT, when the demand is CLEARLY there fo rit.

[jiji]

he's not complaining about the games that are being re-released. he's complaining that Radiant Silvergun is NOT, when the demand is CLEARLY there fo rit.

Apples and oranges. He should be grateful for what they've rereleased so far (which were their only rereleases to date, and a precedent for future ports).

[zaphod]

I had a c=64.

Like most c-64 owners, 95% of my collection was pirated.

However, unlike many of those c64 owners. I lived in the USA.

The vast amjority of these games were NEVER SOLD IN THE US IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM.

How does pirating games which are not on the market here hurt anyone?!?!?! Were we supposed to fly to europe to buy games we don't even know exist yet?!?! And when we do know they exist, where do we get them? There was no e-bay. no import computer game shops, no internet for the masses. we'd have to book an international FLIGHT just to get the games, if we even knew they existed! And if we buy them, the bought versions, which aren't NTSC-FIXED sometimes won't run on our computers anyway! But the pirated versions work. Howzat? in fact there was NO WAY for us US gamers to play many of those c64 classics without pirating them at all!

Hw would you feel flyng out to Europe to buy a game and finding ou that it's a turd? Pretty darn lousy I'd say. But a pirated copy provides an hour of cheap amusement. And some of those games may be well worth flying out to buy that non workning version to support the developers. But i suspect that no one would do this. And why should they? Your piracy didn't cost them a sale because they were not selling to your area.

And then there are the "pirate originals". Boulder Dash is the prime example of this. Pirates made their own versions with their own levels, and traded them. they were never sold, and were never intended t compete with the brilliant original. They were challenges for those who had played the originals to death, and beaten them. They also did not hurt the company in any way. oeel still bought the original, and played it. They bough tthe construction kit as well, and the sequel. And in one case, a pirated set called "Professional BOulder Dash" got turned into an official sequel, Boulder Dash 3! Oh, and lets not forget lode runner. peole made full 150 level games of that one too. course they didn't need to hack the game to do it. It came with the editor.

Oh, and lets take the case of Summer Games. US developed game. Works fine on all US cpus. fails to work on PAL ones. Jedi (cracking group) fixes the game to work as intended on PAL CPUs. Epyx gives them some money, and sells this crack as the official version!

Back then, piracy was an ART.

[Zweihander]

he's not complaining about the games that are being re-released. he's complaining that Radiant Silvergun is NOT, when the demand is CLEARLY there fo rit.

Apples and oranges. He should be grateful for what they've rereleased so far (which were their only rereleases to date, and a precedent for future ports).

So I should be greatful they're taking a few games I can get for $2 at a local pawn shop, porting them to PS2, and re-releasing them for $30 altogether? Seriously, this is nice for people who don't own the original and don't live anywhere near a pawn shop, but damn, Treasure... at least the recent Capcom classic arcade collection gave us an extensive variety.

2. Treasure is being obnoxious by re-releasing games like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, and Dynamite Headdy, without re-releasing RSG. Assholes.

Don't fucking knock Treasure. Re-releasing a game isn't just a walk in the park. Sega published all 3 of the games above and they were for Megadrive.

Oh, but I am knocking Treasure. Developing an anime-based fighting game (and not keeping to the high standards they've set for themselves) was a bitch move, and until I see some RSG3 screenshots, I'm pretty fed up with the motherfuckers.

Saved lawn-mowing money and money from doing chores, for ~18 mos., to buy a SNES with Super Mario World.

I want to point out here to the whiners that Taito Legends is inexpensive and 100% legal. If we keep buying it here in the States maybe they will give us Taito Legends 2 (which yes, has more shmups in it).

Fuck Taito Legends. We want Taito Memories, goddammit!

[Neon]

So I should be greatful they're taking a few games I can get for $2 at a local pawn shop, porting them to PS2, and re-releasing them for $30 altogether? Seriously, this is nice for people who don't own the original and don't live anywhere near a pawn shop, but damn, Treasure... at least the recent Capcom classic arcade collection gave us an extensive variety.

You're just putting your fingers in your ears and screaming la la la as usual. You didn't get it the first time so read this:

Alien Soldier usually costs at least $150 on Genesis.

If you're just going to keep being stupid after people have already proved you're being stupid, a ban is indeed in order.

[PaCrappa]

That's what he does. He has no idea what he's talking about (Bangaioh is somehow outta control on ePay yet Alien Soldier is a $2 pawn shop cart?) but he sure does have alot to say. He's clearly never heard of Taito Legends 2 but he'll tell it to fuck off. Classic.

I should go bump the Insult Dreamcast thread and see what we can get out of him today.

Pa

[BulletMagnet]

Fuck Taito Legends. We want Taito Memories, goddammit!

You might want to check Turrican's lengthy post on the second page of this topic...if the lists posted there are accurate, Legends actually has more stuff on it (including, IIRC, at least as many shmups) than Memories.

[PaCrappa]

You sure are nice BulletMagent That is commendable. I should learn from your patience.

Pa

[BulletMagnet]

Thanks. Careful though, learning too much from the likes of me can never end well.

[Zweihander]

So I should be greatful they're taking a few games I can get for $2 at a local pawn shop, porting them to PS2, and re-releasing them for $30 altogether? Seriously, this is nice for people who don't own the original and don't live anywhere near a pawn shop, but damn, Treasure... at least the recent Capcom classic arcade collection gave us an extensive variety.

You're just putting your fingers in your ears and screaming la la la as usual. You didn't get it the first time so read this:

Alien Soldier usually costs at least $150 on Genesis.

If you're just going to keep being stupid after people have already proved you're being stupid, a ban is indeed in order.

If these auctions reach $150 by their ends, I'll take you seriously. All I know is, I saw it-- cartridge only-- for $2. If you really want to shell out another $148 for the box and manual, by all means, GO FOR IT!!!

Fuck Taito Legends. We want Taito Memories, goddammit!

You might want to check Turrican's lengthy post on the second page of this topic...if the lists posted there are accurate, Legends actually has more stuff on it (including, IIRC, at least as many shmups) than Memories.

I do know that the US-released travesty known as Taito Legends doesn't have Darius-anything. Re-releases of Darius Gaiden and G-Darius on the same disc would have sold me. Also, I refuse to buy into Taito's marketting scheme here, seeing as you'd have to buy TWO VERSIONS OF THE SAME GAME TO GET EVERYTHING ON IT. Is Taito just downright lazy? Or greedy? Or both...?

btw, this thread has gone way off-topic. I simply stated that they should re-release the legendary RSG, and you Alien Soldier fanboys throw a shitfit. Jesus.

[jiji]

Oh, but I am knocking Treasure. Developing an anime-based fighting game (and not keeping to the high standards they've set for themselves) was a bitch move, and until I see some RSG3 screenshots, I'm pretty fed up with the motherfuckers.

So you've been fed up with them since 1994? That's when their Yu Yu Hakusho fighter came out. Or since '02, when they released Hajime no Ippo: The Fighting? And by all accounts, the Bleach fighter is pretty great stuff.

Treasure make licensed games. They always have. It pays the bills.

If these auctions reach $150 by their ends, I'll take you seriously.

The PAL version has always sold for less than the JP version, because of rarity and video standards compatibility. It does seem to be going for much less now that the compilation is out, though.

JP Alien Soldier goes for just as much as ever.

[Zweihander]

So you've been fed up with them since 1994? That's when their Yu Yu Hakusho fighter came out. Or since '02, when they released Hajime no Ippo: The Fighting? And by all accounts, the Bleach fighter is pretty great stuff.

I'm talking about the Bleach fighting game. Lack of animation really makes it hard for me to appreciate art in a 2-D fighting game. At least Guilty Gear DS looks promising...

</off-topic>

[Valgar]

So you've been fed up with them since 1994? That's when their Yu Yu Hakusho fighter came out. Or since '02, when they released Hajime no Ippo: The Fighting? And by all accounts, the Bleach fighter is pretty great stuff.

I'm talking about the Bleach fighting game. Lack of animation really makes it hard for me to appreciate art in a 2-D fighting game. At least Guilty Gear DS looks promising...

</off-topic>

Have you even played the damn game? Yea the animation may not be 3S quality, but it also supports 4P online battles. Even the guys at shoryuken are having a blast with this game.

Calling Treasure a bunch of "motherfuckers" should have you banned.

[KBZ]

such a classic topic. Though it seems that some fail to see things from more than one moral perspective

The outcome based morality majors seem to go for the old "No on is hurt, so what's the problem"

Yet I think it's important to consider Principle based morality as well, and thankfully it's been mentioned.

We created a little No piracy faq at dcs not too long ago, the basis was that Games are not a right no matter who you are, or where you're from.

Not being able to play a game may be unfortunate, but it isn't something that threatens you in any way, or puts you in a difficult situation in your life. No one deserves games, so there's no reason to resort to pirating at all. It isn't justified as far as principles go.

It reminds me in some ways of a child telling his/her parents that they should have something because everyone else has one, as if it was their right not to be left out of something such as a game or candy.

http://www.dreamcast-scene.com/index.php/Main/Piracy

$0.02

[Dave_K.]

Not being able to play a game may be unfortunate, but it isn't something that threatens you in any way, or puts you in a difficult situation in your life. No one deserves games, so there's no reason to resort to pirating at all. It isn't justified as far as principles go.

It reminds me in some ways of a child telling his/her parents that they should have something because everyone else has one, as if it was their right not to be left out of something such as a game or candy.

My thoughts exactly. Excellent post Kingbuzzo!

[Ramus]

Not being able to play a game may be unfortunate, but it isn't something that threatens you in any way, or puts you in a difficult situation in your life. No one deserves games, so there's no reason to resort to pirating at all. It isn't justified as far as principles go.

It reminds me in some ways of a child telling his/her parents that they should have something because everyone else has one, as if it was their right not to be left out of something such as a game or candy.

My thoughts exactly. Excellent post Kingbuzzo!

Ditto.

[Herr Schatten]

Thanks. Careful though, learning too much from the likes of me can never end well.

Indeed. You will end up as a passionate rank hater and inevitably get hit on the head by angry SMURFs.

[Zweihander]

Not being able to play a game may be unfortunate, but it isn't something that threatens you in any way, or puts you in a difficult situation in your life. No one deserves games, so there's no reason to resort to pirating at all. It isn't justified as far as principles go.

It reminds me in some ways of a child telling his/her parents that they should have something because everyone else has one, as if it was their right not to be left out of something such as a game or candy.

My thoughts exactly. Excellent post Kingbuzzo!

As someone who's usually left-out of things, I really can't empathize.

EDIT: I just remembered, I already finished justifying my actions. Piracy got me into the genre. </any need to reply further>

[mice]

But honestly, why haven't there been a re-release of RSG?
I'm sure that would have payed a lot of bills for them.

[visuatrox]

My pre-order copy of Homura got lost in the mail, and since then I have been playing a "backup copy" does that make me a pirate? That is the only backup I play that I don't have the original discs for (yet.. I guess I have to buy another copy ).

[BulletMagnet]

Indeed. You will end up as a passionate rank hater and inevitably get hit on the head by angry SMURFs.

You just earned yourself a spot on my dreaded "use lots of ':P' icons when addressing from now on" list, right next to cap'n ahar. You will forever be tormented by sleepless nights, as the irreverent tongues dance within your mind, refusing to allow you even a moment's respite! The only thought running through your head at any given moment will be "BM e-razzed me!" Suffer! SUFFER!

Let this be a warning to all who would invoke my terrible wrath!