Why can't religious people lighten up a bit? A polite rant

[sethsez]

Well, of course. When we talk about freedom, it's freedom from the government's punishment, not from anything else. I might be legally free to say the most vile things I can think of, but I'm not free from all consequences. That's why I don't just go around shooting my mouth off at everyone and generally acting like an asshole (except here ). They respect my boundaries volentarily, I do the same.

I also feel the same way when it comes to religion, in theory. In reality religion is so omnipresent and influencial that it's more than "just a personal belief." Keep your beliefs out of my business, I'll keep mine out of yours. Try to force them into my life and govern me with them and you'd better have an explanation for those actions that goes beyond "faith."

[Michaelm]

Who cares if someone makes a cartoon that pokes fun at your religion?

I am in no way religious, but if you think it's reasonable to draw pictures of a religious figure whose religion states that it is strictly prohibited to do so, the you are sorely mistaken.

So if you make fun of our queen, which stated in our law is strictly prohibited,
and I'll burn down your flag,cars,houses,people you'll agree you had it comming ?

[ST Dragon]

Who cares if people of the same sex get married? Aren't there more important things to worry about???

Going to war & killing people might have some valid arguments to back it up, but homosexuality & marriage of the same sex is not a matter of religious beliefs, but an anomaly and travesty against nature it self.

And don’t forget people, I repeat the same and old lazy sentence… If you’re attracted to the same sex or practice gay sex, your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

[Michaelm]

Going to war & killing people might have some valid arguments to back it up, but homosexuality & marriage of the same sex is not a matter of religious beliefs, but an anomaly and travesty against nature it self.

And don’t forget people, I repeat the same and old lazy sentence… If you’re attracted to the same sex or practice gay sex, your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

I feel the urge to french kiss you for that

[it290]

For me it is, if you're only capable of understanding things which can be scientifically proven, then you're not believing anything, you're simply accepting information.

So if I tell someone that I have the ability, when divinely inspired, to fire invisible ICBMs out of my ass, and they believe me, they're a better/wiser/stronger person for it?

That's the paradox in 'freedom', isn't it? All facets of our freedom that in any way do or could enter the sphere of another individual are really given to us as an extension of that person's tolerance. And vice versa. The picture isn't complete when you define anyone's freedom in terms of their isolated rights. After all, where does our freedom stop and theirs begin? When we defend our freedom of expression to piss on our neighbours sentiments, we also diminish our freedom by lowering their tolerance. Like any bargain, of course, this can be one-sided, and passivity isn't the way to alert either side to their role either. Most religious people hold their beliefs so close to their hearts that to not respect them is such a violent intrusion upon their personal freedom it always spells conflict. We may have the right to do it, but I believe it isn't in the best interest of our freedom to exercise it blindly. Diplomacy exists for a reason.

Very well said.

homosexuality & marriage of the same sex is not a matter of religious beliefs, but an anomaly and travesty against nature it self.

I'm quite convinced that the positive reading on my sarcasm detector is not in error, but you do hear this argument once in a while. I've always found it quite amusing considering all the homosexual animals I've seen in the past.

[ill6]

This is a pointless argument, I have seen it all over the internet and it never gets anywhere which is the same reason why religious problems never go away; people will not change their fundamental beliefs and by definition are happy to tell you all about them/argue/bomb stuff.

I find myself as anti-religion (and I am a confirmed Chrisitian and went to a church school etc) but usually religious arguments are unbalanced as many non-religious people don't care enough to argue (as an aside I think lots of people carry on with faith as they don't care enough to not do what they have always done, like a drug addiction).

That said, and for my 2 cents I think the world would be a much better place without public religion. That is to say that anyone should be able to believe anything they want but should not have the right to tell anyone else about it. Clearly public religion is not working folks so we should just ban it. Do want you want in your own homes but keep it to yourselves.

I think that this idea ought to be something that all parties should agree on.

Whoever said that eastern religions were the problem is wrong; the US/UK is seemingly on a holy war now, half of western Europe did the same thing in the crusades etc. The catholic church have often censored reality to suit the propegation of their bullshit even today, look at the last popes actions in disuading the use of condoms (even inventing pseudo scientific proof) causing the death of millions in Africa due to AIDS. Curiously the pope presumably went to his "heaven" despite this?

All religious groups are wrong. In my opinion there is no god, only religion...

[Super Laydock]

your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

I hope the same for anyone trying to ban hot lesbian sex videos!

[sffan]

Whoever said that eastern religions were the problem is wrong; the US/UK is seemingly on a holy war now, half of western Europe did the same thing in the crusades etc.

The US/UK is on a holy war? I don't think so. The only people claiming to be in a holy war are the muslim extremists.

The whole idea of "holy war" seems pretty silly to westerners I think. It's so medieval-sounding and stupid, as if god wants us to kill each other. Bush's war is political, not holy. The islamists' war against the west is an insane suicidal religion-driven war which they see as holy. Two separate wars going on -- Both are stupid I believe.

[judesalmon]

Who cares if someone makes a cartoon that pokes fun at your religion?

I am in no way religious, but if you think it's reasonable to draw pictures of a religious figure whose religion states that it is strictly prohibited to do so, the you are sorely mistaken.

So if you make fun of our queen, which stated in our law is strictly prohibited,
and I'll burn down your flag,cars,houses,people you'll agree you had it comming ?

The examples are very different - one is a law passed down by God, one is a law passed down by humans.

[professor ganson]

If you’re attracted to the same sex or practice gay sex, your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

Of course, even if this is right, it wouldn't show that homosexual desires/actions are morally wrong. It would show only that an evil demon who enjoys torturing people for no good reason is in charge of our destiny.

[Acid King]

I don't think you understand the carelessness of a statement like "everyone should live how they want". Even the statement you just made is self-defeating because if everyone lived how they wanted, why would people feel obligated to respect your differences and choices?

The key word you missed being "tolerance". I said people should learn to tolerate other peoples personal choices. That's the whole point of the thread, religious INTOLERANCE. My specific gripe is that people seemingly can't not interfere with other peoples lives for reasons that amount to "I know what's best for you and everyone else", hence the one-size-fits-all comment...

[Neon]

homosexuality & marriage of the same sex is not a matter of religious beliefs...

If you’re attracted to the same sex or practice gay sex, your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

K.

I've always found it quite amusing considering all the homosexual animals I've seen in the past. Wink

Yeah, no shit. Guess all those whales/horses/dogs/cats/etc. etc. are gonna burn in hell too. Law of nature my ass, John Paul II.

The funny thing about fundies is that they don't just want their kids to not have sex or to not believe in evolution...they want to censor this information from schools entirely and replace it with Bible Study or prayer time. Really fucking scary.

[judesalmon]

If you’re attracted to the same sex or practice gay sex, your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

As Jesus said, thinking of committing a sin is as bad as actually committing it, but isn't that a bit unfair?

If you're gay, you can't help but be attracted to people of the same sex - it's not a choice, and you can't force yourself to be heterosexual.

[it290]

Yeah, no shit. Guess all those whales/horses/dogs/cats/etc. etc. are gonna burn in hell too. Law of nature my ass, John Paul II.

Actually not -- they don't have an IMMORTAL SOUL.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, no shit. Guess all those whales/horses/dogs/cats/etc. etc. are gonna burn in hell too. Law of nature my ass, John Paul II.

Actually not -- they don't have an IMMORTAL SOUL.

And we do???

[it290]

Better get that sarcasm detector checked, prof.

[professor ganson]

Better get that sarcasm detector checked, prof.

OK, thanks. This discussion is rather timely for me, as I have to discuss at great length tomorrow Descartes' principal argument for the distinctness of mind and body. Brilliant, but ultimately flawed, piece of reasoning.
EDIT: Part of the relevance is that Descartes thinks of animals as soulless machines, mere automata, just as your earlier comment suggested.

[howmuchkeefe]

If I'm going to listen to any religious nutbag, I'll listen to the one who doesn't make god out to be an egotistical, petty, irrational and fundamentally unjust asshole... which pretty much puts the big three right out.

Religions based on peace love and harmony so often either fail, or become perverted beyond recognition. It's as if no one will take you seriously as a spiritual leader unless you tell them that god thinks they're worthless scum who deserve deprivation and torment. How fucked up is that?

It absolutely appals me to know that every day, people suffer and die over some unfathomably stupid and insane superstition. The more I think of the pain, how gratuitous it is, the more outraged I get.

...and they have the gall to be offended by cartoons! CARTOONS! ...or any number of other things that are none of their fucking business, from sex to abortion to what clothes other people wear to what they watch on TV. No, I declare that I will be damned if I sacrifice my rights to satisfy their anile fantasies or their fragile, oh-so-precious egos.

*sigh*

I'm a bit upset, today. It seems that the Patriot Act is never going to go away; that the War on Terror has been renamed The Long War, and also is never going to go away; I've learned about the Blackwater mercenaries, and how the current administration is slowly chipping away at Posse Comitatus; ...and the mind turns to such things as the perversely named "Free Speech Zones", and the deteriorating condition of the Middle East situation.

[shiftace]

Personally, I'm $30 short of an Ordained SubGenius Minister. IOW, doomed.

[kccttzj]

I don't care what other people believe as long as it's not hurting anyone. But of course that statement can be twisted all around and questioned. There is no winning. One thing almost everyone of any belief seems to agree on is that they like to argue/discuss it. I've never come across anyone who hasn't had something to say about religious beliefs.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

It'd be interesting to see a study of just how religious people are these days. My folks attend church once a week, but it seems like they're just going through the motions, really.

People's intolerance can work to your benefit, though...if you ever get drafted and the war is unjust, just tell them you're gay

(response to first paragraph)
Yes, those people are often refered to as "HypoChristians".

[Neon]

It'd be interesting to see a study of just how religious people are these days. My folks attend church once a week, but it seems like they're just going through the motions, really.

People's intolerance can work to your benefit, though...if you ever get drafted and the war is unjust, just tell them you're gay

(response to first paragraph)
Yes, those people are often refered to as "HypoChristians".

Had a harsh response to this written out before I realized I was being fucking stupid. Seriously though Twitch, lay off the whole moral superiority theme (a good chunk of your posts). You don't even know my Dad.

Getting near time to lock this methinks.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

No offense to you or your family, but there are "Christians" who go to church on Sunday, only to forget, or ignore everything else during the week.
To some, "Sunday" is a habit, and thats sad. Is it in you? Or are you simply going through the "motions"?

I'm not religious..."religion" isn't in me...Jesus is.

Thanks for judging my posts by the way...as I haven't even been an active member for quite some time!

[Michaelm]

I am in no way religious...<cut>

The examples are very different - one is a law passed down by God, one is a law passed down by humans.

You seem to be contradicting yourselves as I find it strange that someone who states that he is in now way religious then continues to tell there's a difference in the example.
If you were really in no way religious you would clearly see that it's quite the same as both laws are passed down by humans. The only difference is that the humans on god's side think their words will weigh more if they throw in a meaningfull name like 'god'.

But anyway the point I was trying to make is that the way those muslims reacted to the cartoons clearly states they are not grown up.
They are a bunch of schoolkids who like to settle arguments with violence.
Do you really think that if it was the other way around we westerners would act the same as them. Burning flags,cars,houses,people... ?

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

^
"Gods" law VS. "Mans" law...

I'll give you one perfect example, and only one! (maybe some)

Murder is a sin...speeding isn't!!! Where does the Bible speak of seatbelts...but yet we are treated as criminals for not wearing a strap while driving. Lets not discuss riding a two wheeler!!!

"Thou shall not build a Chevelle faster than any speed limit"....is not in there. (Commandments)

PS: I don't speed, or race in traffic...only the back roads, or where its safe.

I'm too tired, as well as stressed out to continue this conversation, until otherwise...take care.

Also, I'm out of this conversation, because its becoming like a cheap whore...
East to find...but twice as hard to forget.

Ok, I'll go away once again into obscurity...only a select few will understand where I'm coming from anyway. Most will think I'm having a "superiority complex", or something else retarded, but life goes on...

[CMoon]

And don’t forget people, I repeat the same and old lazy sentence… If you’re attracted to the same sex or practice gay sex, your souls are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell and be tormented for all of eternity!

Nothin's worse than God whoopin' your ass!

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

...

[Michaelm]

^^Ah man, wherever you go, god will be with you

[DEL]

TWITCH wrote:

"I'm out! Might not even return...who knows?"

Speaking of which, fundamentalists tried to take me "out" last year on my way to work.

All in the name of somebody else's religion!

NICE!

If I had been 10 mins earlier on my way to work by tube that morning..........

[Diabollokus]

Buddhists seem to be okay, never hear to many bad things about their religion anyone else ever notice that?

If I had to pick a religion to follow, say for a month to get some sort of cash price, buddism would be it.