Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Vanguard
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Vanguard »

Squire Grooktook wrote:^^^ Have you tried Specter Knight yet? Using his Mega Man X-style movement mechanics (especially the optional enhancement you can get to "grind" on any surface") and souped up offensive roster makes blazing through stages feel incredibly sexy.

His hard mode / ng+ also turns the game into something akin to PS2 Shinobi: your life is merged with sub weapon meter, and constantly ticks down. Murdering everything as fast as possible while scrambling through stages becomes the only way to survive. Very intense.
Yes, he's mechanically my favorite of the three playable characters. His tower climbing segment in particular might be my favorite part of the game. I've actually only played his campaign once though, my recent playtime has been working towards no-missing as Shovel Knight. Anyway, I love how mobile, aggressive, and dangerous Spectre Knight feels. In comparison, Shovel Knight feels like a capable but ordinary protagonist who only really becomes overwhelming through his relics and Plague Knight feels like he's more of a threat to himself than any of his enemies are.

Spectre NG+ sounds really interesting. That might become my go-to mode, especially since with NG+ you can start with everything unlocked. I like Shovel Knight's RPG elements where you just buy everything, but with the other characters you gotta do the lame collectathon. How does the healing skull work when health and subweapons use the same resource? Is it just disabled or does it get a new functionality or what?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BrianC »

yeah. I beat the specter knight regular game recently and enjoyed it. I played on 3DS, but I may restart on WiiU. Was originally going to play on WiiU, but decided to do it on 3DS instead. I did accidentally delete my save data when I decided to use my PS4 drive with the system (wanted the bigger drive on PS4 now that it has external drive support), but I wasn't far in the Specter Knight game when it got deleted, so that wasn't the real reason for playing on 3DS.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Vanguard wrote:How does the healing skull work when health and subweapons use the same resource? Is it just disabled or does it get a new functionality or what?
It's simply disabled.

Now that you mention the tower climbing sequence, I have to wonder if Specters wallclimb/jump was influenced by Nes Batman as well. The limited but subtle control over you have over its timing and reach reminds me of that game.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

Edit: turns out I was wrong, and what I posted wasn't the original source :( post baleeeted
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Sumez wrote:Air man's, really? I don't recall any larger enemies on that at all. That said, the platform cycles is a bit of a showstopper. I generally feel that Rockman 2 is a very overrated game, but I already touched on that. The wolves on wood man's stage is IMO one of the low points of the game. Kitamura even admits that section wasn't implemented very well.
Meant to say at the time, that's a meaty interview! Been a bit busy the last fortnight, finally got around to reading it. blackoak's work demands to be savoured. :smile:

Gave Rockman 2 another look after finding Kitamura's commentary on its boss behaviours interesting; specifically how some of their AI is tied to player input and elemental weakness. I'd never thought about it before, but yeah, makes sense. Crashman hops whenever you fire, setting him up for the Airman instakill. A bit vague but it's the sort of craftsmanship on AK's part that impressed me throughout the interview, especially given RM2's harsh dev cycle.

This really stood out, regarding one of my big Capcom FC favourites:
Shmuplations (emphases mine) wrote:Kitamura: If we’re going to talk about that aspect of Mega Man, then I have to talk about the programmer, Nobuyuki Matsushima (H.M.D. in the credits). Before working on Mega Man, he had done programming for a number of different companies, mostly industrial manfacturing companies. He programmed the systems that controlled industrial machinery. He’s the man that really brought Mega Man to life.

Ariga: Really? That’s cool…!

Kitamura: His programming skills were flawless. Probably because he had worked in an environment where a mistake could cost someone’s life, he would never allow there to be any bugs in his work. Now there’s definitely some bugs in Mega Man and Mega Man 2 where you can warp or pass through walls, but those were all my misses.

There was one difficulty with Matsushita’s programming, though: his code was slow. Being so perfectly wrought, with lots of internal safety checks and the like, meant that it took a lot of processing power and ran slowly. His routines for hit detection, for example, were very slow.
i) holy fuck that's intense :o ii) HMD is credited for 2010 Street Fighter as well... makes sense. :lol: That game undergoes immense slowdown at times, though with its idiosyncratic "outflank and destroy" style I don't think it suffers much. Generally, slowdown hits once you've outmaneuvered a target and loosed a Space Kenshiro barrage on them. And maybe alluding to HMD's background, it absolutely never drops inputs.
Sumez wrote:Two recent purchases that fit this thread's theme but which I ended up kinda regretting.

1. Karnov. Now, I'm actually a big fan of Karnov, some people might even remember that he used to be my avatar picture right here on this forum years ago. But the Famicom port is beyond awful, it really surprised me just how badly they got this wrong while at the same time barely managing to stay on the right side of making something playable - to the point where I think I could actually get something good out of this if I sat down and really got to know the game and avoid its quirks.
But considering how poorly programmed you see a lot of old games being, it's surprisingly rare that you find obvious glitches without really looking for them. In this game they are just all over the place whether you want to find them or not, and the controls are about as broken as you can get on this platform. Apparently it was ported by the same people who made that horrible Donald Duck game for SFC, that explains a lot.
SAS, I think? Apparently they worked on FC Robocop too, which would indeed explain something! Rickety-ass sub-Spartan walk/punch that's vexingly juuust about playable, and laden with DECO's loveably hideous Reagantastic imagery. Unlike Master Verhoeven, I don't think they were being tongue-in-cheek! If I wasn't so tuckered out atm, I'd make some GIFs. Image So instead, I'll be a lazy cunt and wheel out an auld classic: PATRIOTIC WEREWOLF BALLSACK

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2. Krion Conquest (Magical Doropie). Really difficult to explain what it does wrong, but if you've played it you will recognise it immediately.
Incidentally demoing Vic Tokai's Battle Mania (MD) at the moment, the piles of boxes sitting in the street marked "DOROP" caught my eye. I wonder! (the sequel certainly references Time Dominator, at least)
Edit: turns out I was wrong, and what I posted wasn't the original source :( post baleeeted
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by M.Knight »

BIL wrote:I gave Madoola a very brief spin some months back - came away liking the simple, sharp combat and fast semi-linear stages, but found some of the enemy patterns a bit cheap. Was ultimately neither offended nor compelled... planning to revisit for the next time I go FC browsing. Most memorable thing was the nice sunny colours and rustic air - I liked that lakeshore view! Then I got mugged by an infinite swarm of flying blueberries.
I played The Wing of Madoola a few months ago myself, mainly because the heroine is a cute rehdead, and my opinion on it is rather similar to yours. The combat is fast-paced though the sword range is kinda short and you need a power upgrade before inflicting enough damage to one-hit kill the small fry. The main theme is kinda nice (I like this guitar remix) but my experience was also marred by the infintely spawning purple ghost-thingies. They make you spend loads of time crouching and stabbing them until you get a lucky opening to move forward a bit and hope you get out of the area where those enemies can respawn. Judging from some of the fan-art, we are not the only ones who went through this :
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Another problem is that you can get stuck in stage 3 if you take the wrong path and end up at the bottom of the cave with no way to get back up.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

I'm surprised Wing of Madoola has fanart at all.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by mamboFoxtrot »

Why would there ever NOT be fan art of an anime girl with no pants?
Though I think Madoola is in some way based on an OVA called Genmu Senki Leda / Leda: The Fantastic Adventure of Yohko, so that might increase the popularity a bit?

And yeah, by funny coincidence I'd tried out Madoola in emulator a few days ago and had the same experience: "this looks nice, but man everything takes a lot of hits to kill OH SHIT PURPLE BLOBS EVERYWHERE".
I also tried out Layla and HOLY SHIT that momentum. Dear God.
And also tried out Ninja Jajamaru ~ Ginga Daisakusen, but couldn't figure out how to actually end the first level. I might come back to this one, since it looks pretty damn cute.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

The character from Leda is a different one, but yeah they look similar :)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

Finally decided to credit feed through Bucky O'Hare, and while I'm genuinely impressed by what they pulled off with this game, I'm not really sure what to think of it.

I won't hesitate to call this possibly the most ambitious NES game ever. I recognise a lot of the creativity and wild ideas from another Konami game, Dracula-Kun (and I'm kinda surprised not to see any apparent crew overlaps), but in this one it feels a little more determined in where it's going.

That said, it's still an absurd melting pot of impressions, almost like a Japanese Battletoads, and although it might still be too early to say, I feel the game is absolutely horribly balanced and unfocused. I love the pure action platforming of the first stage, which on the other hand is extremely easy. Later on, the platforming gets pinned down by a billion possible insta-kills which makes it a really frustrating experience highly reliant (though rarely directly dependent) on memorization.

I hate to say it about any Konami game, especially cause it's usually just the placebo effect talking - but knowing this game was Masato Maegawa's project before he went on to found Treasure, I can definitely feel the Treasure in this, namely Gunstar Heroes.

On top of all of the frustrating insta-kill scenarios, it is really weird how the life bar seems completely overpowered, and with the exception of learning several bosses, I rarely remember actually dying from taking damage. I would love to see the game much more balanced in its difficulty and the progression of it. I know there's a hard mode where any damaging hit will insta-kill you, but the game is obviously not balanced around that either, and supposedly it was originally intended as an anti-piracy measure.

Did anyone in here ever 1CC hard mode?
I don't know if I want to even go for a 1CC of normal mode as it is. The game is definitely super generous with its 1ups, though.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Sumez wrote:I hate to say it about any Konami game, especially cause it's usually just the placebo effect talking - but knowing this game was Masato Maegawa's project before he went on to found Treasure, I can definitely feel the Treasure in this, namely Gunstar Heroes.
Busy as a motherfucker ATM, but just chiming in to reaffirm our conversation some months back - yeah, I consider Bucky the earliest example of the more setpiece-driven action game Konami and Treasure both would pursue in the subsequent gen. I don't know of any direct commentaries (in English anyway), but Maegawa and Nobuya Nakazato (Contra Spirits/Hard Corps/Shin and Rocket Knight director) in the same staff roll is pretty significant imo.

(they also shared credits for the criminally sluggish Dracula Densetsu, bwaaah! And future Treasure composer NON did the music too. Fucking hell. At least the latter's OST pwned though)

And yeah, much the same thoughts here re: Bucky's design and lifebar. I wish regular enemies weren't quite so harmless, it can feel like you're going purely for style when not dealing with the current nightmare instadeath setpiece. The game moves so damn quick I don't mind too much though. Would never be without it in my library, it's quite unique among FC sidescrollers and prefigures some next-gen classics.

Jesus, this was supposed to be a short post. :o TLDR: yeah pretty much what you said. :wink:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

I watched a couple of speedruns of Bucky (of course these guys go HARD! mode, but they are superplayers so whatevs) and see some good tactics for dealing with some of the situations that annoyed me playing the game blind. Most important is probably the almost-safespot against the "core" boss. It's kinda sad to see that boss reduced to that, since I really enjoyed the fight, but I was only able to beat its final form using Jenny's Psychic Ball Of Death anyway, so knowing of a better place to launch it from is a welcome tool.

I feel pretty set on going for the 1CC now.

I do find it interesting how thorough this game is, save its obvious balance issues. It's a really damn meaty game, with a lot of stages (or rather, stage "acts") and tons of new setpieces being thrown at you constantly. Look at almost any of Capcom's licensed games and it feels like those guys cheaped out. Compare any Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, etc. game to their contemporary Mega Man titles, which were usually around twice as long, or more. Same goes for their SNES Disney games. Really solid gameplay, but short and kinda unfulfilled experiences. Bucky O'Hare definitely does NOT disappoint on that account.
I also really enjoyed Konami's first Tiny Toons game, even if it's far to easy to ever be considered a true classic. It is a lot more polished and well balanced than Bucky, tho.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Ghegs »

I really liked Bucky, and managed to 1CC it fairly quickly. Considered going for a 1LC, but there were just so many insta-death moments that it would've been quite frustrating.

What's different in Hard mode, I don't think I tried that?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Hard mode (or "HARD!" as the password amusingly puts it) causes everything to kill you in one hit. Everything. Metal Storm's second loop can't touch its methodic sadism. :wink: I have to imagine it'd be one of the most brutal no-miss challenges on any console, let alone just the FC. Not that I have any interest in trying that!

I felt kinda vindicated after painstakingly learning how to do certain damage-spongier bits (Yellow Planet opening in particular), only to discover there was actually a venue for such obsessive perfection, haha. Interesting parallel with Rocket Knight's own XTREEM 1HKO mode.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Sumez wrote:The character from Leda is a different one, but yeah they look similar :)
People keep trying to tie Valis and co. to Leda, but I'm wondering whether that look wasn't just a trend at the time. I seem to recall more than a few manga adaptations of the Studio Pierrot magical girls sporting bikini warrior garb despite them never dressing like that in any of their series. And it's not like Conan and other sword-and-sorcery franchises weren't also popular in that era.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

Next session with Bucky O Hare was a 1CC. Almost unavoidable I guess, considering the absurd amount of extra lives this game tosses at you. It was far from elegant, I think I died around 10 times in the room with the Mega Man style disappearing platforms.

I really wish this game wouldn't be so horribly balanced, it could have been such an amazing game if only it had the sleek, tight action gameplay from titles like Rockman etc. For such an otherwise high production value, I wonder why they put up with some of the game's strange control issues and unfair environment traps.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by __SKYe »

Damn, it's been quite a while since my last post -- Task Force, I apologize for my unauthorized leave of absence. :oops:

Just as a quick update, and as not to go off topic much, it suffices to say that I finally got to (mostly) play through Ridge Racer(PSX) and Colin McRae Rally (PSX), and most of my off time was spent playing the latter.

-----

I finally decided to post, because only recently have I played something that is both post-worthy and is actually on topic.

So, a few days ago, while trying to decide what to play, I ended up booting up Ys IV (SFC) and actually played for a bit.
I had previously played the first 2 games, and actually cleared the 1st, so I recognised some familiar names/places in Ys IV, but couldn't quite remember whom/where they belonged to, so I figured it was better to play the games in order, to better follow the story.
I originally thought of replaying the 1st game to brush up on it's lore (it's been maybe a year or so since I last played it), but I ended up just playing a fair bit, until it came back to me, and it really wasn't worth replaying it again, especially when I still had all the others to go through.

I cleared Ys II, and am in the process of clearing Ys III (the PCE CD version). Ys III is, of course, a very different beast than the other games, but it is fun nonetheless.

In general, all the Ys games (at least the ones I've played so far) have this odd thing, where it's like, you're supposed to be at a specific level in order to beat any boss.
Any lower and you either do no damage, or you do so little that you either end up dying or have to go through a very long (and eventually boring) fight. But if you level up even 1 or 2 levels more, then you'll pretty much plow through them, which makes for pretty unsatisfying fights.
I'm not saying it is a bad thing, but I cannot help but think that it is pretty weird.

Ys II somewhat circunvents this (not entirely, but is not as pronounced as the 1st and 3rd games, at least) by having more frequent level ups, that raise your stats in a more smooth manner.

The first boss in Ys I (the magician that teleports, and has 3 flamethrowing statues on both sides), is the perfect example of this, as he is pretty difficult to hit without taking damage, since you need to hit him when he teleports to the center of the screen, while avoiding the flamethrowers.
If you're underleveled, you'll take a nice chunk of damage from the flamethrowers, but you'll do a minuscle amount of damage to him. So you either have too level up, or if you're good enough, go though a very long fight, in order to hit him without taking much damage.

The crystal core boss thing in Ys III is a similar case, as although beatable without taking damage (which in itself is not too hard), takes an obscene amount of hits to kill if you're not at the proper level.

Another thing I dislike, is the lack of any invincibility frames whatsoever, after taking damage.
This becomes especially obvious on, for example, the Ice Caves boss in Ys II (the one that jumps around and sends ice waves around him), and the spider boss from the same game.
These are bosses that are not too hard (I still find that the spider still poses a genuine threat, though), but depending on your level, can either shave half your life, or kill you althogether (getting caught in the ice wave, or getting trapped by the spider).

On the other hand, I found Ys II quite a bit easier than the first game, due to the ability to attack diagonally.
Since this guarantees that you'll damage the enemy, and unless the enemy is flashing and attacks you, you can just ram him against the wall until he's dead, pretty much without any danger whatsoever.
The only thing you need to be careful of, is when pushing an enemy into another (while attacking diagonally), as the enemy behind the one you're attacking is only being pushed, and can still attack you.
Overall, and not counting the bosses, this makes the game quite a bit easier than the others, because you don't need to be contantly fine tuning your position to hit enemies off center, to avoid taking damage.

It is also easier in that, all the bosses except for the last two can (must?) be killed with magic, which is much safer than having to ram them.
Even the final boss is rather easy, as if you use the Shield Magic, you can pretty much, simply ram the boss' entire first phase (or until you run out of MP), without fearing taking damage. And if you have the Elixir, you're virtually guaranteed to win, as it will revive if you die, with full HP and MP, which will make the shield magic active again, which in turn means you can, once again, ram the boss down to its doom.

In contrast, I had massive trouble beating the first game's final boss, as the disappearing ground tiles make for quite the aggravating fight. It makes for a good climax, though.

I do enjoy the variety that Ys II introduced with the magic ( and some of the rings/items), though.

As for Ys III, it's pretty much like Zelda 2 (which I've yet to play :) ), and it's actually pretty fun.
However, I'm quite disappointed with the PCE version, as the scrolling is pretty terrible. The only reason I ddin't switch to the MD version, is because I had already played it for awhile, and didn't want to restart.
Your character also walk one tile at a time, instead of one pixel, which is pretty awkward, although you get used to it.

I had read about the choppy scrolling, but I always assumed it was only present in the parallax background (as happens in the town), but is is mostly the foreground that is choppy. I which they had just simplified the backgrounds, and made the foreground scrolling smooth instead.
I might still play the MD version later (or the SFC perhaps), though.

The lack of i-frames are on this game too, as if you happen to land into an enemy, you'll take quite a bit of damage (and, once again, if underleveled, or in a new area, probably killed). You can save almost everywhere though, so it sort of balances it out.

On the story side, I find it pretty funny that your partner (Dogi), whose hometown is in trouble, doesn't do a damn thing to help, and instead either hangs around the inn reminiscing, or sends you to help the citizens, while he goes away looking for his 'spiritual master' (or whatever he calls it, can't quite remember). :lol:

The character's English speech audio is rather crappy as well, though I suppose you can't really expect much, and it does get pretty entertaining. :mrgreen:

-----

BIL, I'm not sure if this game fits the thread due to it's overhead, STG-esque gameplay, so if it doesn't, let me know. :wink:

The other game I recently started playing, but am still pretty much learning the ropes, is Taito's Front Line (FC).
I intended to play the arcade original, but it is a twin joystick game, and I don't have an appropriate gamepad for it (my pad's left thumb stick is busted). I never really liked twin joystick games to be honest, anyway.

I was reading about Senjou No Ookami (Commando), Ikari Warriors, etc, and I was interested in how the sub-genre started, so I looked it up, and apparently Front Line was one of the (if not the) most influencial before Capcom's Commando.
I only managed to reach the second level so far, but I found it pretty fun and tense to play.

Visuals and character weirdness aside (it is a pretty old game after all), there a few quirks that take a while to get used to.

First, it took a few credits to get used to the way your character holds the gun.
He holds it on the right hand (normally), which means your shots come from the right (which makes aiming at the enemies a bit trickier than normal). Now, this is simply a matter of getting used to it.
The oddest part is that when you hold up+right, the gun suddenly switches to the left hand, messing the angle you'd expect the bullet to have. This really messed me up for quite a while, and it still occasionally does.

Also, the grenades are pretty tough to use, as they take a long time to reach the destination, and the throwing animation is really weird too.
I pretty much only use them on the turret on the end of the level (at least for the 1st level).

You also need to hit the enemies dead center (or thereabouts), or you'll miss them, and since your weapon is Galaxian style (AKA: one shot on screen at a time), this means that missing a shot can be potentially fatal.

The tanks part is pretty cool, and is my favourite part of the game (at least from what I played so far).
If becomes almost paramount to quickly dispose of enemy tanks (since even with the tank, you still can only fire one shot at a time), as a missed shot can easily cost you a life.
There's two types of tanks, a small and large one. The small one has a smaller projectile, and (I assume) a smaller hitbox, while the larger tank is the opposite.
I think both the tanks' speed and projectiles' speed are equal, but they have one major difference: If you're in the large tank, you can survive one shot from the enemy (keyword here -- shot).

If you get hit by an enemy bullet (while on the large tank), the tank will start to smoke, and become disabled. To use again, you have to get off, and then climb on again, and it will be like new. Of course, getting hit with a bullet in any other form (either walking, or in the small tank) will cost you a life.
Do note that any close encounter with an enemy (meaning if you touch any kind of enemy) will kill you instantly. This gets pretty humurous, as if, for example, a small tank touches you while you're on the big tank, you're dead.

But, in my opinion, this 1HKO, and your small movement speed, is what makes this a challenging, but fun game.
Much like in Galaxian (which I very much enjoy, precisely because of this), shot precision is paramount, as missing a shot can cost you a life, so I believe there's a big focus on accuracy, rather than pure firepower.

The fact that the screen only scrolls up when your character is about 1/3 of the way from the top, makes for an even tenser gameplay, which to be honest, at first I disliked (I usually prefer mid-screen scrolling), but actually grew to enjoy it. I think the slow pace of the game helps with not making this feel like a bad thing, since you rarely (if ever) get surprised by a cheap shot from the top.

This is just my semi-initial impression on it, but I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

Well, I've really ranted for too long, so I'll stop now. :mrgreen:


-----

One final, little thing, unrelated to the topic, but pretty fun nonetheless: this has to be the weirdest synonym for 'port' that I've ever seen in any game. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Blinge »

__SKYe wrote: The lack of i-frames are on this game too, as if you happen to land into an enemy, you'll take quite a bit of damage (and, once again, if underleveled, or in a new area, probably killed).
This is a monumental difference from Zelda 2. Really changes everything imo.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Immryr »

Been playing sailor moon r on the sfc. I'm having quite a bit of fun with it despite not being hugely into beat em ups in general. The first level is very, very easy but it starts ramping up pretty quickly from the second level on. I find the guys who roll or dive at you quite tricky to deal with, partly as I'm not great at punching a couple of times before throwing once I've grabbed someone. They die in one combo if I do manage it, which makes life a lot easier.

One thing I haven't worked out yet is how to do the hadouken. I looked in the manual and saw some street fighter esque button inputs but couldn't get any of them to work. Can anyone enlighten me?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by __SKYe »

Blinge wrote:This is a monumental difference from Zelda 2. Really changes everything imo.
I really should play Zelda 2 sometime, I'm just a lazy bastard, and never get around to it. :oops:

The lack of i-frames is already bad, but coupled with a few spots where you need to descend and can't see what's below (like in the 2nd part of the mine area), it can lead to some very cheap deaths, if you accidentally drop on top of an enemy.

Did you finish any of the Ys games, Blinge (or are you a fan of the series, for that matter)?
When I first discovered these games, I hated the ramming mechanic, but I kind of opened up to it with time. I still vastly prefer the standard slashing action, though.
I'm also excited to get around to the later titles, as they are more like typical Action RPGs.
Immryr wrote:One thing I haven't worked out yet is how to do the hadouken. I looked in the manual and saw some street fighter esque button inputs but couldn't get any of them to work. Can anyone enlighten me?
I believe the special attack varies by character, and at least Usagi has it. If I'm not mistaken, you use it by holding the attack button down until the little bar above your health charges up, no motion required.
We briefly discussed it a while back, so you may find something of use there (it was somewhere around march or april, I think).

EDIT: I wrote a bit about it (just a simple breakdown of Sailor Moon R and others' mechanics/differences), and others have also posted later. It starts around page 105, if you're interested.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

__SKYe wrote: I'm also excited to get around to the later titles, as they are more like typical Action RPGs.
Oh man, the modern Ys games are so damn good. There's a good chance you will dig them.
They're a very good example of a game that succesfully made the jump from 2D to 3D

There are two types : ones where you have 1 character and a more "3/4 top-down view", and ones where you have 3 characters with different attack types(with enemies being either weak or resistant or neutral against each)and switch on the fly and the camera is closer to the ground. I prefer the latter (Ys Memories of Celceta is crazy), but there are excellent ones in the "1 character" type also.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

Just started a brand new game of Cave Story (PC). It's been a while...

I have a better setup now than I did back in 2004 : I have my Raphnet Saturn-to-usb adapter and a sweet mk2 Saturn pad, and can now sit on the couch and game on my HDTV or the NEC XM37 Plus (vs desktop gaming sessions back then, which was not bad at all, I just happen to like the couch/big screen setup more). I did have a sweet Viewsonic PC CRT monitor though. I kinda miss it...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Immryr »

Oh, you just hold attack, thanks. I wonder what the street fighter esque inputs in the manual do, if anything.

I saw the discussion of the sailor moon games earlier in the thread. It's what made me buy this one. I wasn't really aware of the games before, then I saw this going cheap on eBay and decided to grab it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Blinge »

__SKYe wrote: Did you finish any of the Ys games, Blinge (or are you a fan of the series, for that matter)?
When I first discovered these games, I hated the ramming mechanic, but I kind of opened up to it with time. I still vastly prefer the standard slashing action, though.
I'm a fan of the series if someone who has only played I & II Steam and III on SNES can be considered a fan :mrgreen:
I really dig the first two, they came to me at the perfect time last summer. I was compelled by achievements to beat both on nightmare difficulty too, I rarely play games on hardest. You really had to pick your moments to rush enemies in II, a misstep could mean death.
Dark Fact on nightmare is beyond horrific.

Wanderers/III is the only one that fits in this thread though eh?
I played it years before the others after seeing this: https://youtu.be/gJukB5hJybE?t=3m27s

There's aspects of III's combat I find goofy, like standing just outside an enemies' patrol range holding down the slash button and letting them walk into it. Or jerking back and forth like a lawnmower before retreating to heal.
I've seen people calling the SNES port inferior recently, is that just compared to PCE or is there anything special about Genesis ver?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by __SKYe »

FinalBaton wrote:Oh man, the modern Ys games are so damn good. There's a good chance you will dig them.
They're a very good example of a game that succesfully made the jump from 2D to 3D

There are two types : ones where you have 1 character and a more "3/4 top-down view", and ones where you have 3 characters with different attack types(with enemies being either weak or resistant or neutral against each)and switch on the fly and the camera is closer to the ground. I prefer the latter (Ys Memories of Celceta is crazy), but there are excellent ones in the "1 character" type also.
Yeah, after seeing some screenshots, I briefly tried Ys VI to see if it was actually good, and really enjoyed the little bit I played. I just didn't play it further because I'm trying to go through them in order (due to the recurring characters/places, etc).
Immryr wrote:Oh, you just hold attack, thanks. I wonder what the street fighter esque inputs in the manual do, if anything.
I didn't even know there were SF-style inputs in this game.
Mind you, I just wrote those post from what I discovered/confirmed as I played it, so it's very possible that there are commands that I didn't know. Maybe it's something like in Final Fight 3?
I'm curious now as well. :lol:

Also, I missed this bit yesterday:
Immryr wrote:Been playing sailor moon r on the sfc. I'm having quite a bit of fun with it despite not being hugely into beat em ups in general. The first level is very, very easy but it starts ramping up pretty quickly from the second level on. I find the guys who roll or dive at you quite tricky to deal with, partly as I'm not great at punching a couple of times before throwing once I've grabbed someone. They die in one combo if I do manage it, which makes life a lot easier.
For the rolling guys, and especially later on when there are a lot of them at once, don't be afraid to use the health draining special attack. You'l lose little life by using it, compared to what you lose if you continuously get hit by them.
Jump attacks and Jump+Down+Grab also work pretty nicely on them, but mostly only if they're alone (or there aren't other enemies close).
Around level 3~4 (the crystal palace or whatever, I don't quite remember), they become a real threat.
Blinge wrote:I'm a fan of the series if someone who has only played I & II Steam and III on SNES can be considered a fan :mrgreen:
We're in the same boat then, I also only (seriously) played those. :mrgreen:
Blinge wrote:I really dig the first two, they came to me at the perfect time last summer. I was compelled by achievements to beat both on nightmare difficulty too, I rarely play games on hardest. You really had to pick your moments to rush enemies in II, a misstep could mean death.
I can imagine that, alright.
Even in Normal, if you've just reached a new area, enemies do quite a bit of damage on a single attack, and I did end up dying from this on several occasions. But I still found Ys II, overall quite easier than the 1st game.
The Rasteen Mine on Ys I, for example, gets pretty tough due to the low lighting, and the narrow, claustrophobic corridors, coupled with some fast enemies. Ys II's equivalent (the first dungeon) is easier, simply because you can use the diagonal attack, and later on, the fire magic, which at least can keep enemies at bay.
Blinge wrote:Dark Fact on nightmare is beyond horrific.
You beat him on Nightmare? Damn...
It's been a while since I've played through Ys I, but I still remember having a very hard time against him on Normal, so I don't even feel like trying the other difficulties. :lol:
And no over-leveling to help you, since you're capped at level 10, I believe.
Blinge wrote:Wanderers/III is the only one that fits in this thread though eh?
I played it years before the others after seeing this: https://youtu.be/gJukB5hJybE?t=3m27s
Yeah, that's a good point. The other games are more akin to Zelda/Legend Of Mana/etc.
I only brought it up, because besides providing a little backstory as to why I'm playing ys III, I've also previously mentioned Zelda: Minish Cap, so I thought it wouldn't be too bad.

BIL, if this is indeed off topic, please do let me know.
Blinge wrote:There's aspects of III's combat I find goofy, like standing just outside an enemies' patrol range holding down the slash button and letting them walk into it. Or jerking back and forth like a lawnmower before retreating to heal.
To be honest, even though I enjoy it, it isn't exatly what I'd call a superb action game.
Grinding (at least to some extent) is pretty much necessary, otherwise you're gonna be dying all the time, and even if you manage to reach the boss, you probably won't be strong enough to beat him.
Though with the "1 level = big difference" that Ys games have, I find that you never have to grind too much, maybe 1~2 levels, or so.
There're also some places, like the in the ruins (before you're thrown into the lava pit), there's a part that has magicians and some ridiculous amount of fireball-things that just hit you from every direction, were I find the best strategy is to just have enough health/defence to move on, because honestly, I don't know how you're even supposed to go through it methodically, without taking damage.
Blinge wrote:I've seen people calling the SNES port inferior recently, is that just compared to PCE or is there anything special about Genesis ver?
The SFC is the only one I've yet to play, so I don't really know how it stands against the others.
But the PCE is, I believe, the worse of the console ports, with its only saving grace being the CD quality sundtrack, which is indeed pretty damn good.
I haven't played the MD port too much (only until the first boss), but it has smooth scrolling, a very nice soundtrack as well, and somewhat different enemy behaviour.
I don't know the full extent of the changes between the PCE and the MD ports, but the common opinion on the internet (if that counts for anything), is that the PCE is the easiest of the console ports, and the others are harder (harder enemies and bosses, require more grinding). But again, it may not be so, so until I try them properly, I can't really say.

I might play a fair bit of both the MD and SFC ports after I clear the PCE game, just to have a look, but I'm even more inclined to play the two versions of Ys IV (the early ones, not the remakes), as apparently, they are almost different games (although based on the same story).

-----

As for Front Line's progress (and assuming it is on-topic):

Apparently there's only 1 level, and it constantly loops at a higher difficulty.
So far, I managed to reach level 4, and got a score of 61900 points.

The enemies never shoot immediately on spawn, nor there are cheap shots from offscreen, so in that regard, the game is fair. But the inability to shoot center-forward, coupled with your character's slow speed is maddening.
Often times, an enemy will spawn in front of you, and you cannot shoot him directly because the bullet will pass through his side. These kinds of situations are pretty tough, as if you try to manuever to get in a position to shoot, he might just shoot you instead, given the time it takes for your character to move. Or he might just ram you, since you dies from touching any kind of enemy.

This 'death touch' gets even more ridiculous, as in the tank section, if you shoot an enemy's big tank it will start to smoke (and soon it will explode) and get disabled, but you still die if you touch it. And this happens more often than I'd like to admit.

Another somewhat common way to die, it when a bg tank spawn in front of you, but a bit off center. I often shoot at it, thinking it will destroy it, but the bullet goes right through its side, and I accidentally bump him (or he bumps me).

I have newfound respect for grenades, as they are somewhat useful (though not THAT useful) to keep some annoying enemies at bay. They do nothing to kill enemies close to you though, and they also lose some usefulness due to the erratic nature of the enemies' movement.
As you loop the level, some enemies move about twice as fast as normal, and this can be deadly, and they require sepcial attention. Oftentimes I find it best to just run away from enemies, rather than trying to beat them all.

My current motto for this game is: "If they're not harassing you, leave them be". :lol:

Other than that, one useful tip is to remember to park the tank away from the enemy bunker, so that you can actually grenade it to complete the level.
Since the grenade button is also used to enter the tank, and there a fair bit of range to enter one, if you don't park it away from the center of the bunker, you'll just end up entering the tank (and probably dying in the process) instead of using a grenade.
Believe it or not, I died a couple times this way. :mrgreen:

It's a decent, and challenging game, but it's pretty rough around the edges. Though this is the FC port I'm talking about, so the arcade original might be a different story.
And for some reason, I cannot help but get the feeling that this game as a Micronics quality to it, though I can't find any evidence that it was ported by them. If gives that same 'rough' feeling that FC's 1942 and Makaimura ports have.
i'm probably wrong though, and it probably is clunky, simply because it is an early title/port.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

__SKYe wrote:BIL, if this is indeed off topic, please do let me know.
Nah, all good! The thread's always had a bit of leeway with regards to other 2D action, topdown stuff in particular.

Bit busy with family visiting, just giving my blessing. :wink: I've been curious about Front Line, will enjoy your review later when I've got time!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

__SKYe wrote:I briefly tried Ys VI
VI is quite allright but The Oath in Felghana, a remake of Ys III on PC and PSP, is a better 1 character modern Ys game. I have yet to play Ys Origins.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by WelshMegalodon »

__SKYe wrote:I didn't even know there were SF-style inputs in this game.
Mind you, I just wrote those post from what I discovered/confirmed as I played it, so it's very possible that there are commands that I didn't know. Maybe it's something like in Final Fight 3?
I'm curious now as well. :lol:
Those are only used in the Vs. mode to execute your health-draining special. Speaking of which, apparently you can press L + R + direction + A to perform the special while moving.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by __SKYe »

BIL wrote:Nah, all good! The thread's always had a bit of leeway with regards to other 2D action, topdown stuff in particular.

Bit busy with family visiting, just giving my blessing. :wink:
Ok thanks, that's good to know.
WelshMegalodon wrote:Those are only used in the Vs. mode to execute your health-draining special. Speaking of which, apparently you can press L + R + direction + A to perform the special while moving.
Ah, so that's it. I totally forgot that the game had a VS mode.
Also good to know about the special, didn't know about it either.
FinalBaton wrote:VI is quite allright but The Oath in Felghana, a remake of Ys III on PC and PSP, is a better 1 character modern Ys game. I have yet to play Ys Origins.
Yup, and I'm looking forward to play it, especially after I beat Ys III, so that I can compare what changed (besides the obvious stuff, like graphics, etc).
Overall, I really enjoyed the Falcom's 3D games that I tried, so I'm confident those Ys games will be good.

-----

I've got a decent grasp of Font Line now, and there's a few more things I discovered that are worth sharing.

Grenades are more useful then I gave them credit for. Their most redeeming feature is the area damage they deal, and the (obvious) ability to fly over obstacles, so that you can kill enemies behind cover. While they are useless at close range (since you won't be able to hit anything with them), there are a few useful ways to use them.

You can simply throw them in front of you, as you walk forward, so that they occasionally hit an enemy as he appears (basically the equivalent to keep firing forward in an STG in order to preemptively kill any unlucky enemy that spawns in front of you). This obviously depends on luck (both for the correct enemy spawning position, and the timing necessary to kill them), but it's much better than using your shot, mainly because you can only have 1 on screen at a time, and you may need it to kill some other enemy.

Another useful way you can use them, is when there are enemies not quite near you, but that you feel may become a threat (by moving closer to you). You can throw a grenade in their direction (or in the likely path they will take), so that, whether they come towards you or not, you're safe. This gets even more useful starting on level 2, because every so often, a faster enemy will spawn, and they can be quite dangerous (I even died a couple times, because they ran me over :mrgreen: ).

They are also the only way to defeat tanks while on foot (your shot does nothing), and are mandatory for defeating the final turret (to finish the level).

Now, more about the tank section.
Like I said before, there are two tanks (both for you and the enemy), one small and one large.
The small one is apparently a little faster (though I can't almost tell the difference), is destroyed in one hit, and fires a shot similar to your character's.
The big one can take one hit, which disables it (it starts smoking, and you can't neither move nor shoot), and if you take another hit you're dead. You can leave the tank and re-enter it, and it will be like new.
The other major feature the big tank has, is that its shot is thicker, and has area damage like your character's grenades. This is very useful, as you not only have a (slightly) wider shot, but can destroy enemies without actually hitting them directly.

In my perspective, the small tnak is absolutely useless, and it's only improvement over being on foot, is its speed. Its shot sucks, and you need to aim precisely at the enemy to destroy them.
The problem here, is that the enemies big tanks have that area damaging shot, which means you'll quite commonly die while trying to defeat them, simply because they can kill you without even directly shooting at you (the thick shot only needs to explode close by).

I should note now, that when you reach the tanks section, the game will spawn a tank for you. The problem is that it is random, whether you get a small or big, so I tested something I've been thinking.
If you don't take the tank, and continue on foot, once your tank scroll offscreen, the game will spawn another random one, meaning you have a chance of getting the big one.
This is the precise reason I stopped even trying to use the small tank, because the big is much, much better, and you cannot spawn another if you are riding a tank (of course :lol: ).
It's pretty dangrerous to go on foot in this section, since the tanks are faster than you (and you'll die if they touch you), and the big tank has that area shot, but in my opinion, it's preferable to continue on in search for the big tank, rather than go with the one (and this is what I always do now).

One thing I should clarify more, is that the big enemy tanks take on hit to be disabled, and after a couple seconds they will explode (though you can shoot them a second time to destroy them immediately, also giving you more points -- explained below).
Do keep in mind that you can die either when the enemy's tank is disabled, or it is exploding, so don't approach it carelessly.

You will also die if, when exiting the tank, you touch an enemy tank (which occasionally happens, if they're close, and also happens when the enemy disables your tank, and you have to leave it to recover).

Oh, and on this section, you can also scroll the screen horizontally (it wraps around, I think, but I'm not sure), but is slower than the vertical scrolling, and not really very useful.

Another thing to be careful of, is the trees on the starting (on foot) section.
You can't walk nor shoot over/through them (they are supposed to be obstacles after all), and the enemies can't shoot through them either, but they can walk over them.
This is very annoying, because you'll often try to shot them as they are passing through one, but your shots won't hit them (they get stopped by the trees), but if the enemy shoots as it is leaving the trees, he will kill you.
I originally thought of using more of this cover points for protection, but I've since moved on to prefer open areas. At least here I have a better chance to kill them (I think so anyway).

I said before that I let enemies, that aren't harassing me, alone, and with good reason.
The obvious point, is that there's always danger when approaching enemies to kill them, so by doing so you're increasing the chances of losing a life.
But another point, is that there are only 2 enemies at once on-screen at all times, so by leaving those that are far from you wander around, you're also preventing further enemies from spawning.
I believe this is especially important in the starting (on foot) area, because not only is that area more narrow, and has all those trees on the way, but on foot your character's shoot angles are really odd. On the tanks section, it is easier to survive, though this is still useful there.

You can also just disable the enemies' big tanks instead of shooting them twice to kill them immediately (if you don't care about the points), so that you have an extra couple seconds without another enemy spawning. Granted, it's not much, but sometimes it can help.

Now for score:

Killing an enemy with a shot gives you 100 points multiplied by the level you're on (so in level 1 you get 100 points per kill, on level 3 you get 300, etc), and killing an enemy with a grenade gives you 200 points multiplied by the level you're on, as well.
The tank shots give the same score as a grenade (I'm not entirely sure though, and it may difer depending on the tank you have). If you destroy an enemy big tank with two shots (one to disable it, and another to kill it before it explodes by itself), you get score for both hits.
At the end of each level, you get 3000 points, also multiplied by the level you're on.

Well, I can't think of anything else right now, and this post is already big enough as it is anyway. :mrgreen:
BIL wrote:I've been curious about Front Line, will enjoy your review later when I've got time!
It's a decent game, but just that, really.
It is a sort of 'proto' overhead, Commando-style game, and it shows (not to mention it is a downgraded port as well), and in no way does it compare to Commando. But it's decently fun nonetheless, especially considering that it (the arcade original) was released in 1982.
It's also pretty bare bones, as the graphics are really simple (and that character sprite :mrgreen: ), and there's only one level, but I'd say the weirdest part (as far as gameplay goes, at least) is really the character's off-center shot, and the left-hand-switch when shooting top-left.

It's worth a try, even if only for its historical relevance (as, perhaps, the main inspiration for Commando, and everything else that came after), but you can still have some fun playing it. It's at least worth emulating for a bit, in my opinion.
Just make sure you actually play past the initial area (until the tanks section), otherwise you're missing the part that's the most fun, which incidentally I would bet is what made this person claim, in their review, that this game is the worst game ever. :lol:

While I agree it's not exactly classic game material, I'd hardly call it unplayable.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

Is there any love for Little Nemo in this thread?
I've owned it for decades, but always gave up on the first stage due to how cumbersome it felt to play it.

Having just completed it, my disposition really hasn't changed. The controls are sluggish, with a slow walk and limited jumps, lots of weird or unfriendly hitboxes. Lots of time wasted in exploration, trying to follow the game's set cycle of animal friends you need to change between.
The game feels like it should be good, and has a generally very high production quality, but while it seems like the animal powers should be fun, they feel more like a limitation instead, and cycling through them and dealing with their drawbacks (which usually means lacking any means of attacking the enemies) is the real challenge in the game, rather than the genuine obstacles in the stage, which includes several enemies that seem like they are programmed to be a pain in the ass rather than a challenge (those dandelions, anyone?)

I wouldn't call it a hard game, but I think it's frustratingly hard for all the wrong reasons.

I absolutely adore the graphics used for Nemo's life meter though:
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