Console WARS: SFC vs MD vs TOWNS vs PCE vs ETC

[Strider77]

though I played them on PC instead of PSP.

Mask of the Sun is the worst Ys game I've played

Ditto, I played them on PC... well I have played Oath on PSP and some of 1 as well, well actually it was on Vita.

And yes..... Mask of the Sun on SNES/SFC is quite bad. I am a big fan of the PCE version though.

[Obscura]

What's different about PSP Ys 1 and 2 vs. PCE, aside from "diagonal walking gets you through the whole game for free" in 2? I haven't played the PCE versions, but this is the first I'd heard of them being very different.

Dawn of Ys rules, IMO. Second best game in the series, best "bump" game. Mask of the Sun... different story LOL.

I didn't remember anything about Beyond Oasis's music, so I looked it up on Youtube... damn, that's almost at Harmony of Dissonance levels of ear-rape! Impressive!

[WelshMegalodon]

One is an enhanced port while the other is a port of a remake.

[FinalBaton]

The overhauled Ancient Ys Vanished is great, as is The Oath in Felghana, though I played them on PC instead of PSP.

Seguing back into the console wars, I think the Genesis port of Wanderers from Ys came out best overall. Of course, it's hard to recommend the sidescrolling version of III over Oath.

Mask of the Sun is the worst Ys game I've played (and I've played all of them except VIII and Taito's PS2 takes on IV and VI). I don't know how Tonkinhouse's port of III made the people at Falcom think this dev was competent. While The Dawn of Ys doesn't reach this series' top tier in my estimation, it's enormously better. Better than Memories of Celceta too, though that should go without saying.

Ys III on Genesis does seem very nice. Music sounds great and the scrolling is very smooth. I played Oath on PSP but I think I'll grab Ys III Genesis anyway and give it a spin.

You mention Memories of Celceta : it is my very favourite Ys game so far, it blew me away. It checks all the boxes(for an action rpg) for me. Love the Flash Guard; makes combat really interesting (I'm happy they're keeping that in for 8 ), same with having to switch on the fly between a blade user, a pierce attack and a shell cracker. and I though the exploration was way more substantial and fun than in 7. You have a clear motive here(and sometimes 2 or 3 at a time) and the map is way bigger too.

The PS2 VI is allright. Nothing spectacular, it's fun in short bursts but it's certainly not gonna win any awards. It's kinda forgetable

[copy-paster]

SFC has better library, but with weaker main processor.

MD, only handful of games which I really liked.

PCE, just same as MD.

[stryc9]

Story of Thor/Beyond Oasis OST is misunderstood IMO. After going back to it I find a lot of it fairly brilliant, actually, and I think Yuzo accomplished what he set out to achieve. It's atmospheric/ambient rather than catchy and memorable witch is probably what people expect from this type of game.

It's far from garbage, though on account of his other work it isn't his best. It's got SOR2 sound FX in it too, which is awesome.

Agreed that as a game there is a bit of clunkyness going on with the controls considering what it asks of you.

[Vludi]

There are actually a few very interesting snes ports like Ghost Chaser Densei (which as Skykid has pointed out, is arguably superior to the arcade version) that I didn't include.

How it's better than the arcade when my brotha Tulks isn't on it ? missing one stage too. Definitely a solid port though, better than most capcom ones.

[Skykid]

Story of Thor/Beyond Oasis OST is misunderstood IMO. After going back to it I find a lot of it fairly brilliant, actually, and I think Yuzo accomplished what he set out to achieve. It's atmospheric/ambient rather than catchy and memorable witch is probably what people expect from this type of game.

It's far from garbage, though on account of his other work it isn't his best. It's got SOR2 sound FX in it too, which is awesome.

Agreed that as a game there is a bit of clunkyness going on with the controls considering what it asks of you.

Nobody said the game was garbage, just the OST. The game isn't bad. Some interesting ideas with the elementals and whatnot; they provide a few decent puzzles to chew on (although it's never taxing).

The problem is the whole thing is too simple and feels fairly empty on the whole. The only town in the entire game is the one you're washed up on initially, and the lack of NPCs doesn't help the sparse nature of things. Combat is cool, and it's actually an interesting ARPG in the sense that it's fairly unique. But ultimately even the combat is underfed - the entire thing could have been developed so much more.

SoT definitely has nice moments though, I enjoyed playing through it. I wouldn't call it an outright classic but I would recommend a one-time play through just for its unique take on the genre.

But the OST? Just no. There is no defense.

[Xyga]

Devil Crash is also a great pinball game, and they generally aren't a big thing for me. But this one I enjoy alot. I actually own the MD port and not the PCE version. I kinda want both now. I'd be curious to hear some scathing debate between over the PCE and MD port for this one.... non scathing debate would also do I suppose.

Good vs. here http://www.sega-16.com/2005/01/side-by- ... -vs-tg-16/

But seriously just the soundtrack is enough a reason to choose the MD one, bloody fucking fantastic.

Personally, whenever I get a chance to try and convince people to give more respect to the Megadrive, I take it. This is the perfect thred to do so.

Well in case you've missed a good portion of the thread the MD already receives the most love overall anyway. But you demand a blind, unconditional love, and well...not happening. :p

Remember; I like the MD the most at the end, but I'm a realist as to where the machine and its library stand, it stayed right under the SNES glass ceiling, yet managed to pierce many holes in it thanks to a non-negligible number of exceptional games. They're definitely not equal machines but how to explain? it's the type of conclusion where in a match the winner is officially identified, but the loser doesn't look like one, rather a very close second just a bit more out of breath.

(PS: I agree with you that VK looks quite good though it's a mixed bag of screens ranging from just plain to totally awesome. Well, all Castelvania are like that anyway.)

[Skykid]

There are actually a few very interesting snes ports like Ghost Chaser Densei (which as Skykid has pointed out, is arguably superior to the arcade version) that I didn't include.

How it's better than the arcade when my brotha Tulks isn't on it ? missing one stage too. Definitely a solid port though, better than most capcom ones.

Right now I really can't remember what it is, as it's been ages since I played the SFC version for a clear - but although the SFC port has fewer characters, the game mechanics have been changed somehow to make it incredibly fun. Without commenting on the arcade I only remember the SFC has a rechargeable super bar and a shit ton of special moves per character, with most hidden and not outlined in the manual. Despite some bland backdrops, it's a riot of a beat-em-up; one of that console generation's best.

[Sumez]

SFC has better library, but with weaker main processor.

Seriously though. How many people who keep claiming this are basing their statement on anything other than word of mouth or just reading the clock speed as stated by the system specs? Did people try making a game for both consoles and actually find that you're able to pull off more stuff in a frame on the MegaDrive compared to the SNES? If anything is limiting your execution speed on SNES, it's managing all the crazy memory writes you need to do to get anything out of the video chip, and not the CPU speed itself.
For the longest time I also thought a game like Sonic would be impossible on the SNES because of how "fast" it is, and that Sega went with that concept intentionally trying to pull off something the SNES wouldn't be able to replicate. But that's just a misconception, Sonic doesn't do anything unique, and with sensible data layout, you should be able to scroll just as fast even on a NES (see Bio Force Ape as an example). It IS a really well produced game though, despite a few glitches here and there.

A 65xx and 68k CPU are really night and day, and as someone else already pointed out, the speed of the SNES CPU also varies depending on what it's doing.
The assumption that slowdown in certain SNES games is caused by an "inferior CPU" is the biggest misconception I see continously brought up on comparison between these consoles. There are plenty of games running on CPUs much slower than either system, that do fine without slowdown. Slowdown on a set hardware profile is 100% the fault of the developers and no one else.

For the record, I have no experience in 68K programming myself, but I've seen MegaDrive code and damn does it look delicious in its simplicity, and if I were to ever work on a 16 bit game I would probably go with the MegaDrive just for that reason. The whole switching between 8bit and 16bit mode on the SNES makes my brain hurt.

[trap15]

The SFC's 65816 could match the MD's 68000 with a great programmer working on it. But 65816 is hell on earth to write, so great programmers for it were not common. 68000 is a walk in the park to write good code for, and was much more common so there was more experience with it.

[stryc9]

Nobody said the game was garbage, just the OST. The game isn't bad. Some interesting ideas with the elementals and whatnot; they provide a few decent puzzles to chew on (although it's never taxing).

I didn't suggest that anyone did think the actual game was garbage, man The first part of my post in response to your OST hate only.

Yeah the elementals were interesting, the way you could summon the fire elemental out of an enemy's exploding bomb was pretty cool.

The problem is the whole thing is too simple and feels fairly empty on the whole. The only town in the entire game is the one you're washed up on initially, and the lack of NPCs doesn't help the sparse nature of things. Combat is cool, and it's actually an interesting ARPG in the sense that it's fairly unique. But ultimately even the combat is underfed - the entire thing could have been developed so much more.

SOT indeed does away with a lot of the typical ARPG trimmings but I don't think that's necessarily to it's detriment. It's almost more of a top-down beat 'em up than an ARPG really. Actually you have to wonder how much NPC-type interaction content was cut to make the deadline, maybe the game was intended to have a lot more than what we ended up with.

SoT definitely has nice moments though, I enjoyed playing through it. I wouldn't call it an outright classic but I would recommend a one-time play through just for its unique take on the genre.

Agree, and the spritework is definitely triple A grade and worth seeing all the monsters for. It's no Landstalker though, granted, and I prefer Light Crusader to it as well (another unique take on the genre, and a favourite of mine).

But the OST? Just no. There is no defense.

Again, garbage is too strong a word for what we hear in the game. The instruments chosen are well above average and the dynamic changes are clever and add to the ambient atmosphere. It fits the game just fine.

Sonic Eraser, now that has a garbage OST.

[Xyga]

tbh Bare Knuckle III tracks are great for the large part, but the very low sound quality is detrimental to it.

SoT feels the same IMHO, although it's indeed more ambiant-style, the SQ is still too low to properly render what might have been more enjoyable otherwise.

[stryc9]

I never had a problem with BKIII soundtrack, it was just the initial shock after first hearing it back in '94 and how different it was to the previous game's OSTs. Nowadays hearing it through a proper stereo and not your parent's shitty TV speakers reveals it to be a pulsating, hypnotic masterpiece whose composition is more complex than just about anything else I can think of on the machine. The low res drums are dirty AF and just add to the grime. I love stuff like Cycle 1 and the trippy Shinobi Reverse

The track that plays in the nightclub on stage 2 can quietly go fuck itself though. It's like water torture since the section is long enough for it to really get on your nerves. WTF were they thinking?

[Sumez]

To be fair, Story of Thor does sound worse on the typically horribly emulated sound you get from pretty much any emulator. This includes officially released Sega compilations such as the big one on X360/PS3.

[Xyga]

Do all these games sound very different depending on the MD's audio circuit also? Honestly I've never given proper attention to this, just shortly listened to some comparatives and also my own MDs, and I couldn't hear any colossal differences in quality like the night-and-day some tell...

[Skykid]

Again, garbage is too strong a word for what we hear in the game. The instruments chosen are well above average and the dynamic changes are clever and add to the ambient atmosphere. It fits the game just fine.

I think it's an experimental OST and there's nothing wrong with that. The sound quality is particularly poor though - worse than a lot for some reason - and the overall composition with its dead air sections and offbeat tones is absolutely fine if it wasn't the predominant theme.

There needs to be an offset. There are moments of the OST that are nice and the ambient effect has a distinct personality. But it's far from an accomplished soundtrack, to the point where you're sitting there after a while wondering what the hell Koshiro was thinking.

[Sumez]

Yeah, the thing is, at the point Koshiro already had some of his very best work behind him, including all of his PC-88 soundtracks, which were also running on a Yamaha FM chip. I completely respect the man from trying wildly different stuff though.

Story of Thor was actually the first time I ever noticed Koshiro's name - really sad we had such a bad start together, but we have made up since. My first impression was that it was horribly embarassing of him to put his name on the game's title screen.
The game is made by Ancient, btw, which is the Koshiro family's own company. Even though Kataru Uchimura is credited as the designer, Yuzo himself was the producer of the game, which also explains why he'd "take chances" with the soundtrack.

As for the console wars, Illusion of Time kicks Story of Thor's ass, unfortunately. I feel that is the closest you'd find to an equivalent on the SNES, but I'm open for other suggestions.

On the other hand, Landstalker is way better than Equinox :3

[Vludi]

There are actually a few very interesting snes ports like Ghost Chaser Densei (which as Skykid has pointed out, is arguably superior to the arcade version) that I didn't include.

How it's better than the arcade when my brotha Tulks isn't on it ? missing one stage too. Definitely a solid port though, better than most capcom ones.

Right now I really can't remember what it is, as it's been ages since I played the SFC version for a clear - but although the SFC port has fewer characters, the game mechanics have been changed somehow to make it incredibly fun. Without commenting on the arcade I only remember the SFC has a rechargeable super bar and a shit ton of special moves per character, with most hidden and not outlined in the manual. Despite some bland backdrops, it's a riot of a beat-em-up; one of that console generation's best.

You mean the bar below the health? that was in the arcade, same with the special moves. What the SFC port added was a few more special moves and some juggle mechanics iirc. I still prefer the arcade however, higher challenge, roster, enemy count and better presentation.

[BryanM]

On the other hand, Landstalker is way better than Equinox :3

But is it better than Ladystalker?!

[Strider77]

Yes... it's better than Ladystalker.

[FinalBaton]

Do all these games sound very different depending on the MD's audio circuit also? Honestly I've never given proper attention to this, just shortly listened to some comparatives and also my own MDs, and I couldn't hear any colossal differences in quality like the night-and-day some tell...

Not super different, but the difference is certainly there. This is a quick run down of the NTSC-U models :

Model 1 VA3, VA4, VA5, VA6, VA6.5, VA6.8 mobo is considered the "classic" sound. Bombastic bass and somewhat rolled-off highs. Mids are not forward at all here, but are very clear.
Model 1 VA0 to VA2 has crystal clear highs, and super warm mids that are very forward. Bass is a bit less bombastic than on VA3 - VA6 but still very present
Model 1 VA7 is absolute garbage. Sounds thin and distorted as all hell. Complete rubbish

Model 2 VA0, VA1, VA1.8 = same crap as model 1 VA7
Model 2 VA2, VA2.3 : haven't heard those, supposedly have better sound than VA7 but not on par with VA3
Model 2 VA3, VA4 : different than the ones just above, but like them they don't sound quite as good as VA3, although they supposedly get close. Haven't heard them either


The first two families (VA0 - VA2 and VA3 - VA6.8 ) sound truly marvelous. If you want a good comparison between those 2, check out some OSTs I captured on my model 1 VA2 and compare them to Dustin O'Dell's VA3 captures.
My captures https://soundcloud.com/finalbaton or https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... U1glpQPzUu
Dustin's https://www.youtube.com/user/DUSTINODELLOFFICIAL/videos

[Ex_Mosquito]

In an interview released yesterday it turns out the legendary UK magazine personality, Julian Rignall, prefers the Megadrive library over the SNES also.

http://www.maximumpowerup.com/episode-4 ... interview/

*RUNS*

[Skykid]

In an interview released yesterday it turns out the legendary UK magazine personality, Julian Rignall, prefers the Megadrive library over the SNES also.

http://www.maximumpowerup.com/episode-4 ... interview/

*RUNS*

Not surprising, he did spearhead Mean Machines and Mean Machines Sega, and the former was mostly MD anyway because it launched before the SFC existed.

I enjoyed all the old game mags, but I was (and still am) a Super Play aficianado for lyfe. Best game mag ever and that's regardless of platform.

[Strider77]

MD wins!

[BrianC]

9999 in 1 wins! Best system ever! It has Tetris!

[e_tank]

SFC had exclusive, refined games custom-built by sandwich artists meant for home consumption. All the SEGABOX had was, was ports of games that had better versions in the arcade. SEGA's fate to devolve into the pitiful beast capable of squeezing out Sonic 2006 was carved in stone from the start

not sure if the above is just obvious troll being obvious but.. *deep inhale*

Code: Select all

alien soldier
dynamite heady
gunstar heroes
light crusader
castlevania bloodlines / vampire killer
contra hard corps
rocket knight adventures
musha aleste
robo aleste
ex-ranza
crusader of centy
granada
pulseman
monster world 3
monster world 4
sonic
sonic cd
sonic 2
sonic 3 & knuckles
ristar
phantasy star 2
phantasy star 3
phantasy star 4
shining in the darkness
shining force
shining force 2
shining force cd
landstalker
super shinobi
super shinobi 2
bare knuckle
bare knuckle 2
bare knuckle 3
beyond oasis
sword of vermilion
fatal labyrinth
ecco
ecco 2
vectorman
vectorman 2
comix zone
toejam & earl
lunar silver star story
lunar eternal blue
super fantasy zone
panorama cotton
thunderforce 2 md
thunderforce 3
thunderforce 4
herzog zwei
elemental master
undead line
twinkle tale
assault suit leynos
gleylancer
gynoug
battle mania
battle mania daiginjou
magical hat no buttobi / decapattack
alisia dragoon
keio flying squadron
bari-arm
gaiares
steel empire
sub-terrania
shadowrun
castle of illusion

*exhale*...

i really can't pick a favorite between the md, sfc, and pce. gun to my head i'd probably go with the md simply b/c i feel its library is the most well rounded of the 3. tho in terms of stg's imo pce/cd definitely has (at least) a slight edge over the md/cd.

[Ex_Mosquito]

A lot of the decision comes down to what you enjoy. I find the MD and PCE have more arcade style short games that can be completed in 20/30mins. The Snes, generally, had bigger games that took longer to get through. My personal preference is for shorter 20/30min games and the MD and PCE has more of my preferred length of gameplay.

[Xyga]

The said arcade~ish tonality of the MD's library is a bizarre thing since it's not really because of the actual arcade ports (decent but of older games) nor an overwhelming presence of popular VS fighters which are one of the major genres if not the most important in the history of actual arcades.
The SNES is more and better furnished if we're talking arcad-ey games.
Yet some people were even calling the MD the Neo Geo of the poor. Why?

Could it be because of a library highlight on manlier-atmospheres/themed games, faster paced stuff and the good+impressive exclusives? Plus the genre gems a la SoR2 and TFIV that emphasized this, and the early communication from SEGA that pushed forward the arcades DNA of the machine?
Also I was thinking it's probably because of the clearer picture (at least in RGB Land) and sound overall, as opposite to the SNES's blurry and muffled feel.