Console WARS: SFC vs MD vs TOWNS vs PCE vs ETC

[Mortificator]

The consoles are all effectively the same to me now, differing only in which emulator I run, so I'll judge entirely by their libraries. That mostly means original games; I'll also credit ports which are the best of all possible versions, though there are very few of those from this generation. The SNES has the most games in that very-good-to-great range of titles worth playing by a large margin, followed by the Genesis (w/ add-ons), followed by the PC Engine (w/ add-on).

Speaking of RPGs, the Mega Drive also had competent ports of Star Control and Might and Magic II.

Star Control doesn't have any RPG elements. Maybe you're thinking of Starflight?

[WelshMegalodon]

My mistake, I did mean Starflight. Though Star Control deserves a mention as well.

[FinalBaton]

This is a solid list and similar to what I would have made, but a few comments:

1: A good chunk of these disappear if we are talking about exclusives, which is how I prefer to judge consoles (and also why I still refuse to acknowledge the ps4 as a half decent console, yet). There are actually a few very interesting snes ports like Ghost Chaser Densei (which as Skykid has pointed out, is arguably superior to the arcade version) that I didn't include.

2: Twinkle Star Sprites is not on genesis, it's on saturn afaik. Maybe you meant Twinkle Tale?

3: While the list of sidescrollers seems about the same size at first glance, keep in mind my list was only accounting for games I consider stellar. If I wanted to include more "good but not great" titles (as we see with the inclusion of IMO relatively weak titles MD like Arrow Flash, etc.) I could probably triple the snes action-adventure roster if I wanted to without even stooping to the inclusion of anything outright mediocre or average. Notice that titles like Super Metroid aren't even on my list (!!) and I only included two stg's which I consider 10/10 material, when there are a scad of others that I don't mention (Axelay, R-Type 3, Pop'n'Twinbee, Pocky and Rocky 2, Darius Force, Gradius III, etc.) which are 9/10 material

4: I may be in the minority, but discounting arcade ports that are better on their home format, I find most of md stg library terribly underwhelming (seriously Thunderforce might sound and look good but it's a chore to play imo). Elemental Master is the only one I return to on a regular basis. Twinkle Tale is good too, and there are a host of "solid" titles, but the best snes stg's blow the console out of the water on that front by virtue of quality over quantity.

5: No Alien Soldier on that list *stern stare*

6: Even if we were to move every single game available on the snes over to being md exclusives, except Contra 3 and Ninja Warrios Again, snes would still win purely by virtue of possessing those two games. You can't fight god.


All in all I really do think it's hard to argue that the snes has a smaller roster of hardcore games, and even harder to argue that its masterpieces aren't among the greatest games of all time. I can understand if you're going to go with the argument of "I just like my favorite md titles better than my favorite snes titles" similar to how I'll deny anything else in the sidescrolling format can touch Contra 3, which is fine, but discounting personal taste I don't think MD has a real "hard number" advantage in either quality or quantity. Looking at it as a whole, Snes probably has a bigger library of general "hardcore" games, if an advantage is to be pronounced on either of them.

Well I was listing my favourites an Alien Soldier is not a game I've played much. What's wrong with that?

Also you list Contra 3 as being "god" but Contra Hard Corps is just as good. So I can list "god" too.

And I think lots of titles in my picks were more than just "good", I think most of 'em fall into the "very good" category

Not taking non-exclusives into consideration? hmmm...
Just curious : are you considering arcade ports as non-exclusives?

[Squire Grooktook]

Also you list Contra 3 as being "god" but Contra Hard Corps is just as good. So I can list "god" too.

Ha ha, I'd have to disagree. We've actually discussed this quite a bit in the sidescroller thread, but Hardcorps is very inferior by most metrics.

Not that I don't love it as well*, but with its overabundance of safe spots, dead air (jungle stage boss HRRRRNGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAGHHH), and generally more static "you see it once and it'll never kill you again" boss design, Hardcorps simply can't challenge 3's utterly towering rng fueled chaos.

*Even if it is a magnitude below 3, it's still a magnitude above most other sidescrollers, though. I actually do consider it a very special game that's dear to my heart, even if I can't talk about it without complaining about the jungle stage boss or the cyclops cutscene

Also go play Alien Soldier *stares*

Not taking non-exclusives into consideration? hmmm...
Just curious : are you considering arcade ports as non-exclusives?

Yeah, otherwise I would have listed Ghost Chaser Densei, and MD would have had a fighting chance against Alien Wars and The Ninja Warriors with Daimakaimura ^_^

[FinalBaton]

Huh. I could swear I saw some people prefering Hard Corps in the sidescrolling thread.

I personally think it's a brilliant game, aside from the waiting game tedium of the shape shifting jungle boss
Also you mention safe spots, but let me tell you something : with 1 hit kills, I'll take all the motherfucking safe spots that I can get thank you very much

[Squire Grooktook]

Huh. I could swear I saw some people prefering Hard Corps in the sidescrolling thread.

I personally think it's a brilliant game, aside from the waiting game tedium of the shape shifting jungle boss

It has its admirers of course. But with Drum banned, the "C3 is god" club hold an iron grip across the land. Look up my discussions of it with BIL and Skykid, as we've gone into C3's unique strengths several times.

And yeah, don't get me wrong. I really do think Hardcorps is a brilliant game and one of my favorites, but for sidescrolling rng chaos that drives white knuckle reflex action every time, Contra 3, Ninja Spirit, and Daimakaimura are the kings of the world.

(and also The Ninja Warriors Again and Alien Vs Predator Arcade, but those are brawlers)

[FinalBaton]

Yes indeed NWA is definitely a brawler, so you can't really include it into sidescrolling action games, as you just said

[Skykid]

Hard Corps is wonderful; a breakneck paced arcade action game bursting with the same kind of variety that makes Bloodlines so thrilling.

But it's not an equal to Contra III in terms of threat or tautness of stage design/bosses, and therefore doesn't have quite the same adrenaline peaks. It's not far off though. I rally should 1CC that next.

[Strider77]

Hardcorps is very inferior by most metrics.

Top down stages.... really, who wouldn't have replaced them with more side scrolling stages.

You'll defend them... but you'd still replace them.

[Skykid]

I wouldn't defend them and I would replace them. I think when you know how to play them they're over in seconds so it doesn't matter much, but they're tedious and not the best design decision.

Despite that Contra III is still superior by virtue of how incredible the regular stages are. I think Stage 3 is probably my favorite run 'n gun stage of all time.

[Squire Grooktook]

You'll defend them... but you'd still replace them.

True, but I'd still take them over the jungle stage boss.

Or the cyclops miniboss cutscene.

Or the junkyard opening where the bikers conveniently spawn outside the corners so you can just stand at the far ends and safe spot

Or the doctors experiments fight, where you can kill half the monsters by standing in place and shooting

Or...

[stryc9]

I haven't delved deep enough into the libraries of any of these other machines except the MD, so I can't really make a call on this.

Despite being a Sega guy since being a kid, I have no doubt that the SNES probably equals it in terms of action games in the end, the library is like three times the size of the MD after all. I know I do prefer the MD's first party offerings over Ninty's though, always have.

I also put a lot of stock in the opinions of most of the guys posting here (specifically in the sidescrolling action thread, AKA the best gaming thread on the net) and if they say Contra III is better than HC, then I believe them.

Here's some other strong action games on MD to consider anyway that aren't the usual Contra:HC, Vampire Killer, Alien Soldier etc always mentioned here, or mainstream darlings like SOR2 or Road Rash):

Ex Ranza
Chelnov
Mcdonald's Treasure Land Adventure
Pulseman
Rolling Thunder 2 & 3
Gauntlet 4
Panorama Cotton

And IMO some 'hidden gems', if there is such a thing:

Technoclash (slow-burn top-down western run 'n gun)
Road Blasters
Psycho Pinball (better than Devil Crash MD? possibly)
Sub-Terrania

[Sumez]

I do find the comments regarding "I'm not so into RPGs so I'm not too hot on the SNES" totally baffling; as if RPGs is all it's got. I'M not so into RPGs, but I still know if I were in the desert island scenario the SNES library would be the one I'd be taking.

Absolutely. Most SNES RPGs never even came out where I live, Secret of Mana and Illusion of Time/Gaia being the only odd outliers. (there was a European Terranigma, too, but I never saw it in stores here).

While the SNES is by far the big guy when it comes to RPGs that was never something I've seen as defining for the platform.

seriously Thunderforce might sound and look good but it's a chore to play imo

I thought I was the only one <3

[Sumez]

Contra: Hard Corps vs Contra 3 is such an old debate that will always baffle me to no end. I don't think I've ever seen anyone ever lean towards Hard Corps of the two unless there's a Sega bias talking, even if the person in question may not realise it. I honestly don't see how anyone could ever consider Hard Corps objectively better than C3 though, considering all the typical genre-mistakes it commits, which as Squire already pointed out, is really well covered in the "sidescrolling action" thread.
That said though, I do think it's an amazing game, and I can't really blame anyone for preferring Hard Corps on a personal level, if only for its production and inherent charm, that's just absolutely over the top. I guess that's gotta count for something.

So in my book:
Contra 3 > Hard Corps
Bloodlines > Castlevania 4

I think both consoles are even in this regard though. Even is Contra 3 is obviously the more solid game, Hard Corps is good enough for me to call that one an even.
I wouldn't ever count Daimakaimura as a strength in the MegaDrive's favor though. As great of a game as it is, I will always prefer the arcade version, which has also been ported in multiple better versions since.

[Xyga]

Regarding Mode 7 I feel the opposite to some people here, it was used in A DAMN LOT of games, whether it was simply to add some eye-candy during boss battles, or with entire levels, if not entire games built around it.
Sometimes in excess or superfluous, sometimes right where it should by really adding something unique and really spectacular for the time.

Whatever limits of it we perceive today were not that relevant at the time because it was still the best thing for visual effects, the MD unfortunately lacked the power to decently imitate the 'super scaler' games (seriously what a terrible mistake coming from SEGA) until some dudes found an okay workaround for Panorama Cotton though it was already too late for it to become widespread, even more so regarding games like Alien Soldier or Adv. of Batman & Robin; splendid effects but largely ignored.

In any case without it there was no riding Flammie or your Airship around the world in several RPG (awesome feeling + space to explore), nor the various Star Wars vehicles (btw check Super Empire Strikes Back if you want to see Mode 7 w/ bumps), no Mario Kart, F-Zero or Pilotwings, no rotating stages in various games even if those were questionable gameplay-wise (except for the Cameltry and Septentrion games maybe), no spinning jet fighter in Run Saber, no zooming in Contra, Actraiser, Mario, nor giant robot battles in the Goemon games, tons of stuff in Yoshi's Island, and there's many many more examples in the library including all flavours of sports games as well that looked otherworldly comparatively.

Unless one questions the interest of fancy and/or elaborate visuals in video games (and I would then question his understanding of video games as a whole) there's no question that Mode 7 was a significant asset.
It was something that participated to the SNES's library identity, and although the MD could also do some relatively similar things it was never to the same extent and so nonchalantly, the better visual scaling effects ingame were seen only rather late in the life of the machine, which is unfortunate because it's the sort of eyecandy that helped sell games.
SEGA should have provided every willing dev with a thorough documentation about all the programming tips and tricks doable with the MD hardware they would have researched/collected in order to allow a more common use of those, and early enough to make up in front of the Mode 7 competition.

[Koa Zo]

I've delved into PCE-CD, SFC/SNES, MD-GEN-CD libraries extensively. I've no questions about which platform provides what I'm looking for when I'm going to play some videogames.

Sega 16-bit
MD/CD/Wondermega/X'eye/CDX

Any suggestion of the MD library being comprised of arcade translation is a gross misrepresentation. I do gravitate toward the Mega Drive due to what I consider to be more fierce and concentrated action games. Dare I say the action games on SFC often feel soft and mushy, maybe that's just accentuated because of the frequently mushy BGM.

Desert Island scenario? I'd get a lot more out of Undead Line than any action game on SFC or PCE. Landstalker would give me all I need in lieu of Super Metroid. Vampire Killer over IV anyday. Silpheed, Batman Returns, Soul Star, AH3 Thunderstrike, Shining Force CD, Lunar II, Popful Mail - not much on the other consoles can come close to those. Robo Aleste, Keio Flying Squadron, Bari Arm, Lords of Thunder... fun games and soundtracks galore!

The SFC/SNES surely has more software: The Mario, Yoshi, Kart, Star Fox, big name stuff I've played enough of for a lifetime (same with Sonics). Oddball stuff like Keeper, Kid Klown, Nichibutsu Arcade Classics, Q-Bert 3, Stunt Race FX, Air Strike Patrol, and maybe the Doraemon games I'd miss. But big name hardcore tier games like Hagane, DoReMi Fantasy, Macross Scrambled Valkyrie, Space Megaforce, Biker Mice From Mars, Hyper Iria, Knights of the Round and all the others just don't give me the gaming punch that I want when I've got the itch to play.

Give me Twinkle Tale, Rolling Thunders, Marvel Land, Herzog Zwei, the Tengen games, the Treasure games, Granada, Mega Bomberman, Sub Terrania, Sparkster, Bad Omen (though I do have a soft spot for Supapon DX)...
Reaching into the Sega 16-bit library I can always find something that will challenge the memory and reflexes and satisfy the aural and aesthetic interests.

Between the PCE-CD and the SNES-SFC it'd be a toss-up.

[Sumez]

I don't really feel like Mode 7 was an asset in the SNES's favor. I mean sure it was at the time, in the eyes of many, and it probably helped move quite a few units. But the effect looks horribly limited, and gives an awful dated look to any game that relied heavily on it. The fact that every other background layer is disabled in mode 7 makes it really difficult to not have it staring you right in the face. It's like 3D games on PS1 - sure it may be the exciting new tech, but it looked terrible, on a machine that was able to output absolutely beautiful 2D games.

Some games do use Mode 7 tastefully, but there are so many examples where you can tell it's used just for the sake of using it.
Yoshi's Island is the best example I can think of on the SNES that uses contemporary effects with great results without appearing dated. Those were mostly rotation and scaling effects using the SFX chip though. I don't know if the game has any mode 7. It's by far one of the most beautiful 16 bit games ever created though, and is IMO highly overlooked on the timeline of video game history. On the surface it appears to do nothing really new on the gameplay side of things, but its amazing levels of pure creativity was unprecedented.
edit: Come to think of it, I imagine the boss fight on the tiny moon was probably mode 7. That's a pretty damn tasteful use of it, if I ever saw one.

Spoiler

[Xyga]

I don't really feel like Mode 7 was an asset in the SNES's favor. I mean sure it was at the time, in the eyes of many, and it probably helped move quite a few units. But the effect looks horribly limited, and gives an awful dated look to any game that relied heavily on it. The fact that every other background layer is disabled in mode 7 makes it really difficult to not have it staring you right in the face. It's like 3D games on PS1 - sure it may be the exciting new tech, but it looked terrible, on a machine that was able to output absolutely beautiful 2D games.

Not to me. I can always put myself back into the context and enjoy, that includes the early polygonal 3D games of the 32/64 era many of which I still find beautiful (well, a number of them, and on a crt mainly).
Really to me it was all in reverse, starting with the 128bit gen I've begun to look back fondly at older gen games, and that included their looks. Old scaling effects of the 8/16bit gens - mode 7 or not - whether simple of more elaborate with added modes/chips, were the icing on the cake and even if those were sometimes meh, they were more than welcome when tastefully used, which wasn't rare. I've never seen those as a lazy thing from devs without imagination, quite the opposite, or if we choose to think otherwise then why not begin to diss the visuals of the most elaborate MD games as well? They're not Mode 7 yet could perfectly be seen as added fluff giving an outdated look to the games.
Really I don't understand the lack of love for the Mode 7 specifically, it allowed for no-worse than other effects from other platforms and even did more, it was pretty rad.

[Strider77]

Contra: Hard Corps vs Contra 3 is such an old debate that will always baffle me to no end.

No... your bizarre opinion of Castlevania 4 being an example of shitty sound on the SNES is truly baffling. You're the only one trying to sell that..... we all checked our receipt, we aren't buying your BS regarding that one.

Contra HC over Contra 3 is not baffling, just preference. And pretending like you're shocked and dumbfounded over that preferance makes it hard to take you seriously even more.

Then you say this in the same post:

Hard Corps is good enough for me to call that one an even.

It's so close enough for you to call even but baffling that someone else prefers HC!? I thought I liked arguing with Skykid because it riles things up... but maybe I realize now it's also because he's at least consistent when disagreeing.

But mostly it's over your weird hissy fits regarding C4's music. Please allow me to save you the trouble of sharing the YouTube link that only makes everyone scratch their head even more as to what the hell happened to you as a child while C4's music was playing in the background.

https://youtu.be/EFtpZS_t0sQ

Having said all that.... God I love 16 bit war threads. It's like a being little shit on the playground all over again but with a bigger vocabulary.

Or the junkyard opening where the bikers conveniently spawn outside the corners so you can just stand at the far ends and safe spot

I love that part because the motorcycles my little "vroom" noises that are like parts of the BGM playing... it's silly but true.

PS: Thunder Force 3/4 are hardly a chore to play.

[Sumez]

You really are a master at trying to bend the words of others in order to misunderstand stuff as much as possible, aren't you?

Contra HC over Contra 3 is not baffling, just preference. And pretending like you're shocked and dumbfounded over that preferance makes it hard to take you seriously even more.

And even if you personally "prefer" Hard Corps, it should be quite obvious why Contra 3 is easily the better game if you have any interest in actually playing this genre.
It's my impression that a lot of opinions on these games spread wildly around the internet is mostly based on people who either haven't played any of the games to the end, or only played through one of them and merely touched on the other. It's like all those games people are passing judgement on simply from having watched an AVGN video about them. In the case of Contra, a lot of it is based on how good Hard Corps looks, with a lot of incredible setpieces backing it up, but in the end that matters less when you're actually playing it, and have to sit through the same long cutscenes or safe spottable bossfights over and over again.
A good example is the fact that Hard Corps is famous for being "an impossibly hard game" when in truth it's possibly the easiest in the series. Again, read Squire's arguments on the games in the relevant thread, it's very objective and based on hard facts.

It's so close enough for you to call even but baffling that someone else prefers HC!? I thought I liked arguing with Skykid because it riles things up... but maybe I realize now it's also because he's at least consistent when disagreeing.

As I specifically pointed out if you'd read my post, I can totally understand why people would prefer HC without going in depth with the games, and I feel like the MegaDrive game is strong enough that it shouldn't be discounted just because Contra 3 is better. How does that not make sense?

But mostly it's over your weird hissy fits over C4's music.

Hissy fits? Really?

Castlevania 4's soundtrack has several cool moments, but if you can't hear that it's an obvious example of the SNES music often ending out sounding muffled and muddy, I don't know how I can ever communicate with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sX3fjpkFwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oy5G7yemg
I think this should make it pretty damn obvious. The MegaDrive's synthetic instruments are obviously much more limited than the SNES's samples, but the overall sound of the music is much clearerer. I can see which you go with coming down to personal preference based on their individual strengths and weaknesses, but you can't deny that the facts.

[Strider77]

Yes, hissy fits.... really.

[Skykid]

Going to weigh in on a couple of points.

Thunder Force

I don't have extensive experience with 4, but I cleared 3 way back and it's a really good console hori. Too easy perhaps, but I certainly wouldn't label it a chore - if anything the the choose your stage route makes it the opposite, especially if you like challenge by tackling a tougher stage underpowered.

C4's music

C4's soundtrack is beautiful; one of the SFC's best. It's brilliantly composed and themed across all of its tracks, and elevates the game considerably. It's one of C4's strongest assets.

C4

Although I'm making a statement rather than offering a debate (because I'm sick of having it) fuck all you bastards who keep ragging on C4; I love the game. I don't give a shit about too easy, multi-directional whipping you don't like, stage design complaints, too long etc etc.

I like the fact it's a helluva journey, I think its atmosphere and cinematic virtues are some of the best captured during the 16-bit era, and in my opinion it has qualities OVER Vampire Killer in these respects. Vampire Killer was a terrific clear and is pure arcade fun, but it reaches its limit there. It may be technically superior, but it doesn't achieve the gothic atmosphere and sense of vampyric dread offered in C4. I can appreciate them both for doing very different things.

So fuck you all.

Thanks.

[Squire Grooktook]

Despite its level design and pacing issues, I can definitely respect enjoying C4 for its atmosphere over everything else. It's definitely an audiovisually gorgeous game that captures it's world and sense of adventure well.

Similar to how I feel about Super Ghouls and Ghosts ocean stage. A bit too long and annoying, but does capture the epic feel. Sometimes a bit bland to play, but wonderful to imagine.

[FinalBaton]

C4 is a very good game. But Bloodline's level design is considerably better.

I understand why some people may love C4, but that doesn't make it the better game.

[Squire Grooktook]

And x68k Dracula stomps them both ^_^ so win for ETC?

Bloodlines gets second place out of the whole franchise though for me.

[Xyga]

C4 is a very good game. But Bloodline's level design is considerably better.

I understand why some people may love C4, but that doesn't make it the better game.

Depends if you're on the side who thinks level design and/or gameplay/system are always more important than the looks and feel, or if you allow yourself to think that the latter can also make for a great game even if the former are a bit weak.

(Tip: anyone can stand on both sides and let his heart speak for each game individually, without prejudice. But that's asking for too much flexibility today maybe, since apparently there are 'rules')

Anyway the Contra and Castlevania comments here perfectly illustrate my previous point about the SNES vs MD talk in the annoying thread.

[FinalBaton]

Depends if you're on the side who thinks level design and/or gameplay/system are always more important than the looks and feel, or if you allow yourself to think that the latter can also make for a great game even if the former are a bit weak.

(Tip: anyone can stand on both sides and let his heart speak for each game individually, without prejudice. But that's asking for too much flexibility today maybe, since apparently there are 'rules')

Anyway the Contra and Castlevania comments here perfectly illustrate my previous point about the SNES vs MD talk in the annoying thread.

Bloodlines also looks great and has a good atmosphere. It's the better game of the two, come on...

[Skykid]

Despite its level design and pacing issues, I can definitely respect enjoying C4 for its atmosphere over everything else. It's definitely an audiovisually gorgeous game that captures it's world and sense of adventure well.

Similar to how I feel about Super Ghouls and Ghosts ocean stage. A bit too long and annoying, but does capture the epic feel. Sometimes a bit bland to play, but wonderful to imagine.

Right. It's exceptionally engrossing. Ever since I was a kid I always appreciated a game with an atmosphere that could really intoxicate, and C4 ticked that box back then and still ticks it now. I don't really appreciate people comparing it directly to Vampire Killer - they're two largely different games with different aims and properties.

I cleared Vampire Killer not long ago and believe me, it's not the perfect Castlevania. It has a really fantastic stage layout for the most part (certain sections, like in the factory, are less well thought out) but it's so much an arcade game that it departs distinctly from the traditional Vanias. That's not a sleight - it's great at being that Vania arcade game - but if you're looking for the slower burn and sense of journey available in the other early entries in the series, it's doesn't really deliver. The stages are much more geared toward action and have more linearity.

C4 always has the opposite criticism levelled at it: it's too long and too much of a journey, and the challenge isn't increased enough until the later sections. Regardless, it's more a traditional style Vania and has an exceptional sense of atmosphere - arguably more than any other entry in the series. For a game that's about killing Dracula, I think it's the most successful tonally, and I disagree that the level design and mechanics are drawbacks. It's different, yes, but it's also loads of fun with plenty of pace.

Bloodlines also looks great and has a good atmosphere. It's the better game of the two, come on...

No, don't "come on". You have an MD bias and you're shifting it onto these two examples.

I'm getting bored of hearing people talk shit about such a superb game. I think they can be enjoyed equally for very different reasons.

[FinalBaton]

Despite its level design and pacing issues, I can definitely respect enjoying C4 for its atmosphere over everything else. It's definitely an audiovisually gorgeous game that captures it's world and sense of adventure well.

Similar to how I feel about Super Ghouls and Ghosts ocean stage. A bit too long and annoying, but does capture the epic feel. Sometimes a bit bland to play, but wonderful to imagine.

Right. It's exceptionally engrossing. Ever since I was a kid I always appreciated a game with an atmosphere that could really intoxicate, and C4 ticked that box back then and still ticks it now. I don't really appreciate people comparing it directly to Vampire Killer - they're two largely different games with different aims and properties.

I cleared Vampire Killer not long ago and believe me, it's not the perfect Castlevania. It has a really fantastic stage layout for the most part (certain sections, like in the factory, are less well thought out) but it's so much an arcade game that it departs distinctly from the traditional Vanias. That's not a sleight - it's great at being that Vania arcade game - but if you're looking for the slower burn and sense of journey available in the other early entries in the series, it's doesn't really deliver. The stages are much more geared toward action and have more linearity.

C4 always has the opposite criticism levelled at it: it's too long and too much of a journey, and the challenge isn't increased enough until the later sections. Regardless, it's more a traditional style Vania and has an exceptional sense of atmosphere - arguably more than any other entry in the series. For a game that's about killing Dracula, I think it's the most successful tonally, and I disagree that the level design and mechanics are drawbacks. It's different, yes, but it's also loads of fun with plenty of pace.

Bloodlines also looks great and has a good atmosphere. It's the better game of the two, come on...

No, don't "come on". You have an MD bias and you're shifting it onto these two examples.

I'm getting bored of hearing people talk shit about such a superb game. I think they can be enjoyed equally for very different reasons.

What the hell? so Contra 3 is agreed upon to be the better game in the action thread and that's all fine and dandy but then Bloodlines is also agreed to be the better game in the action thread and now I have a bias???

Fuck thissssssss

I think you should look in the mirror when talking bias...

[FinalBaton]

There's no way C4 wins over Bloodlines. There's just no way.

Bloodlines wins that matchup and that's that. You need to accept this and move on