Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Wachenroder]

I cant believe i read this whole thread

hey pretty new here but does anybody know about bandridge scart switches and whether or not they are known to have issues with 480P

i hooked my ps2 and wii to it the when in 480p mode it looks blurry. switch outputs the image perfectly clear in other resolutions. 480p is clear when connected directly to my monitor. just not when hooked to the bandridge switch.

[Lawfer]

480p grip @ wii (I could not wait until the weekend and I already changed the switch to 480P!) Someone have a clue how to fix geometry on this?

Spoiler

Have you manage to calibrate your display for 480p?

[danielretrogamer]

Anyone got the Ikegami TM 1417 manual? Or knows how do I change from 110 to 220? According to Ikegami website it is possible but I couldn't find the switch.

"Specifications
GENERAL
Input Voltage 100V-120VAC ± 10%, 50/60Hz, Single Phase
200V-240VAC ± 10%, 50/60Hz, Single Phase
(switchable from the internal connector)"

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/sdtv/tm1417.html

[Lawfer]

Anyone got the Ikegami TM 1417 manual? Or knows how do I change from 110 to 220? According to Ikegami website it is possible but I couldn't find the switch.

If it doesn't say behind that it can do 200-240V, then it probably can't do it... Only the latest manufactured units can do 100-240V.

[hyrulebr]

480p grip @ wii (I could not wait until the weekend and I already changed the switch to 480P!) Someone have a clue how to fix geometry on this?

Spoiler

Have you manage to calibrate your display for 480p?

Sort of

I can only get this monitor to work in 480p with 16:9 aspect ratio. If you try with 4:3, you got a hell of distorced image as I showed here before and even with the maximum adjustments (100%) you can't fix it. Even more: in 4:3 mode the image lacks a lot of sharpness. Maybe needs service menu adjustments. This monitor treats 480p as HDTV (you have to go to menu and change to HDTV mode) and everytime you put a 480p signal, the monitor changes automatically to 16:9, so I think that it was build for 16:9.

But I did a trick to get 480p in 4:3: I expanded the 16:9 aspect ratio to fill all the screen in 4:3 (luckily the complete adjustments permits that). So, I got full screen 480p 4:3. Since the monitor have a adjustment for every resolution, I didn't mess with 720p/1080i 16:9 signals.

I will keep that way until I can get a better solution.

[Lawfer]

480p grip @ wii (I could not wait until the weekend and I already changed the switch to 480P!) Someone have a clue how to fix geometry on this?

Spoiler

Have you manage to calibrate your display for 480p?

Sort of

I can only get this monitor to work in 480p with 16:9 aspect ratio. If you try with 4:3, you got a hell of distorced image as I showed here before and even with the maximum adjustments (100%) you can't fix it. Even more: in 4:3 mode the image lacks a lot of sharpness. Maybe needs service menu adjustments. This monitor treats 480p as HDTV (you have to go to menu and change to HDTV mode) and everytime you put a 480p signal, the monitor changes automatically to 16:9, so I think that it was build for 16:9.

But I did a trick to get 480p in 4:3: I expanded the 16:9 aspect ratio to fill all the screen in 4:3 (luckily the complete adjustments permits that). So, I got full screen 480p 4:3. Since the monitor have a adjustment for every resolution, I didn't mess with 720p/1080i 16:9 signals.

I will keep that way until I can get a better solution.

Wait what? Of course not, you need to calibrate it properly, I am using it with 480p on PS2 through RGB no problem.

As for automatically changing to 16:9, I am not sure what you mean since you also mention that you can get a 4:3 480p picture expect that you did not figure out how to get the picture properly calibrated...

Automatically switching aspect ratios, the settings are probably set to "Auto" since you bought the monitor used, the presets are probably automatically set to switch to 16:9 for HDTV mode by the previous users, you need to change "CHANGE ASPE" to "Manual". I am not sure, but I think I remembered getting 4:3 in actual HD resolution (720x480p isn't HD) on the Xbox 360 dashboard (that was back in 2013) though I haven't tested it more than that, so it can do 4:3 even for higher resolutions. I even tried setting it 1080p, but it didn't work.

If not, have you tried getting 480p in "SDTV" mode? Why don't you try it real quick? I am not sure if I tried it myself, but I don't see why it wouldn't work (as mentioned 720x480p isn't HD)

When you played with the settings to get the 16:9 picture zoomed to 4:3, did you push the following buttons:

"Aspect", "Mark" set to "4:3" and adjusted "Width"? Is that how you did it?

[hyrulebr]

Wait what? Of course not, you need to calibrate it properly, I am using it with 480p on PS2 through RGB no problem.

As for automatically changing to 16:9, I am not sure what you mean since you also mention that you can get a 4:3 480p picture expect that you did not figure out how to get the picture properly calibrated...

Automatically switching aspect ratios, the settings are probably set to "Auto" since you bought the monitor used, the presets are probably automatically set to switch to 16:9 for HDTV mode by the previous users, you need to change "CHANGE ASPE" to "Manual". I am not sure, but I think I remembered getting 4:3 in actual HD resolution (720x480p isn't HD) on the Xbox 360 dashboard (that was back in 2013) though I haven't tested it more than that, so it can do 4:3 even for higher resolutions. I even tried setting it 1080p, but it didn't work.

Sure, menu was set to "auto" but even changing it to "manual" I have the same result. I back all setting to factory default. see the results:

4:3 480p image but with 16:9 aspect ratio on monitor

Spoiler

and

Spoiler

4:3 480p image but with 4:3 aspect ratio on monitor

Spoiler

and

Spoiler

See the difference? Look at mark green lines. With user controls to me is impossible to fix the second image. So I expanded (zoom) the first image to 4:3.

If not, have you tried getting 480p in "SDTV" mode? Why don't you try it real quick? I am not sure if I tried it myself, but I don't see why it wouldn't work (as mentioned 720x480p isn't HD)

Yes, the monitor only works with 480p with HDTV mode selected in menu. 480p is EDTV that is more HDTV than SDTV but this is only classification. The thing is that Ikegami treats it like HDTV.

Isn't your monitor like that?

When you played with the settings to get the 16:9 picture zoomed to 4:3, did you push the following buttons:

"Aspect", "Mark" set to "4:3" and adjusted "Width"? Is that how you did it?

I didn't use the mark function, but I checked now and it's under the lines. I have to use all the four size controls (width, height, H.cent and V.cent) to fix it.

See the result after calibration (mark function 100%):

Spoiler

[Lawfer]

4:3 480p image but with 4:3 aspect ratio on monitor

Spoiler

and

Spoiler

Yeah I know, but you just need to properly calibrate it, cause right now the picture is misaligned and maladjusted, though I can understand not wanting to do it/can't do it since it is a very difficult and complicated process, even an Ikegami guy said that he had problems understanding the manual.

480p is EDTV that is more HDTV than SDTV but this is only classification.

480p is just the progressive mode of the 720x480/640x480 resolutions, either it's HD or it's not and neither 720x480 nor 720x576 are HD, not even the PS Vita with it's 940x544 screen is HD, for example 1920x1080 is HD, no matter whether it's 1080i or 1080p. Ikegami is not clear when it comes to classifying 480p, sometimes they put it under the category "SDTV" and other time they put it under the category "HDTV"

I didn't use the mark function, but I checked now and it's under the lines. I have to use all the four size controls (width, height, H.cent and V.cent) to fix it.

See the result after calibration (mark function 100%):

Spoiler

That should be fine, this seem actually more manageable for a regular user than calibrating the setup themselves, HOWEVER know that with this method you are getting ~900-950TVL rather than ~950-1000TVL, so you are basically loosing like ~50-100TVL than you get when you play PS1 games or PC Engine games.

[hyrulebr]

That should be fine, this seem actually more manageable for a regular user than calibrating the setup themselves, HOWEVER know that with this method you are getting ~900-950TVL rather than ~950-1000TVL, so you are basically loosing like ~50-100TVL than you get when you play PS1 games or PC Engine games.

You are right. I didn't think about it. The problem is that is impossible to fix it using only user controls. Ikegami engineers have access to service menu and have the service manual, plus all the experience I lack.

Did you have to access the service menu to fix your monitor?

I'll leave it now as is until something new appears

Mauricio

[Lawfer]

The problem is that is impossible to fix it using only user controls. Ikegami engineers have access to service menu and have the service manual, plus all the experience I lack.

Yeah, that's the problem.

Did you have to access the service menu to fix your monitor?

I played with the calibration control back in 2013 for awhile mainly for the geometry and picture adjustment, however the main calibration was done by a professional editing studio. I barely even touch any of that stuff now.

[danielretrogamer]

A friend just bought a SONY PVM online and asked my help to calibrate it, which I did, also using the service menu. It all went well, monitor is in great shape and displays a perfect picture, HOWEVER when using the "blue only" function, the image displayed is black and white. Testing with a simple test DVD, even fullscreen "pure" Red Green and Blue olny images look perfect, I mean, the blue gun is/works fine with any input. This is the second time I found this issue on a PVM, anyone also had this problem (blue only turning the monitor black and white)? This could be "capacitor-related" or "CRT gun-related"?

[mikejmoffitt]

That is how it is supposed to work. Blue Only represents the blue channel as white.

[Midnight Milkshake]

Hi guys!

I have question:

It´s possible to daisy chain a Sony BVM-20F1E to a Pioneer PDP-V402EU, and get image with the first one in standby?

I want to splt the RGB signal from a Bandridge to the Pioneer, without having to buy another switch with two outputs.

Thanks!

On all of my monitors the passthrough is passive so any or all can be on and display the signal.

Just bought the cables and it works, thanks!

Edit: I've done a lag test between the two, one video at 60 fps and another at 240 fps; at 60 no lag, but at 240, there's bit (1/4 of frame maybe?) of delay between the two monitors, sometimes on the Sony, sometimes on the Pioneer .

[danielretrogamer]

That is how it is supposed to work. Blue Only represents the blue channel as white.

I tought BLUE ONLY would display a blue-only image (at least thats how my JVC and most Sony PVMs I own work). Maybe this "blue channel as white" is used in older PVM models (I got two mid 90s PVMs that do that). Good to know it is not a malfunction.

[danielretrogamer]

Anyone got the Ikegami TM 1417 manual? Or knows how do I change from 110 to 220? According to Ikegami website it is possible but I couldn't find the switch.

If it doesn't say behind that it can do 200-240V, then it probably can't do it... Only the latest manufactured units can do 100-240V.

Yeah, I got 5 14" Ikegami and only one (later model) says 100-240v. It worked OK on 110V but had a weird smell, so I turned it off. Did a visual inspection of the boards and everything seems to be OK, nothing blown, nothing leaking. Fuse is also intact. It seems to be missing a cover/board/heatsink near the power input, but I believe it was maybe an option board, I have none of the same model to compare (will post pictures later).
Anyway I couldn't find the input power switch. If some previous user plugged it in 220V without changing the switch it would have blown the fuse (or something on the boards) right?

It had a chemichal smell when powered, but not so strong.

[Lawfer]

Yeah, I got 5 14" Ikegami and only one (later model) says 100-240v. It worked OK on 110V but had a weird smell

I don't see why it wouldn't work if you use a step down converter, these units are made to work at 100-120V 50/60hz. Maybe it was your step down converter who was too weak and was starting to melt?

[danielretrogamer]

No, I used a 1KVA power converter, so it wasn't that. Something wasn't right with the monitor I believe, despite the fact that it worked OK (i did not left it on for long due to the chemical smell). I was certain I would find some blown/smoked hardware inside, but no , everything is perfect on visual inspection.
I guess I'll just turn it on again and wait to see if something goes wrong. If it is a power board issue, I believe I can fix it. If not, I'll keep it to maybe use the screen/tube (I have 4 other Ikegami, one with a bad tube).
Right now I got exactly 20 pro CRTs (ranging from 9" to 20") I will sell some after cleaning and calibration, but I will keep some for sure, you never know
I think I will just keep 1 20" PVM, 1 14" BVM and 2 9" JVC (cheap, no point selling those) and 1 14" Ikegami for the curved screen
I will try to take some pictures of the whole bunch before I start selling them.

[danielretrogamer]

UPDATE: I tested the Ikegami again, no chemical smell at all, and it did not explode. wonder what went wrong first time I tried it... anyway, it does power up, but NO BURST warning light on front is on, and all I could get was an error onscreen "NO DECODER BOARD" or something like this. Then screen goes black and I can't setup anything or view the onscreen menu. It does have all the factory boards installed, even a digital one. Anyone knows what this NO BURST warning is?

[Lawfer]

UPDATE: I tested the Ikegami again, no chemical smell at all, and it did not explode. wonder what went wrong first time I tried it... anyway, it does power up, but NO BURST warning light on front is on, and all I could get was an error onscreen "NO DECODER BOARD" or something like this. Then screen goes black and I can't setup anything or view the onscreen menu. It does have all the factory boards installed, even a digital one. Anyone knows what this NO BURST warning is?

From Ikegami Manual of the HTM series:

NO BURST LED
LED which operates only when the composite signal is selected.
The LED lights up when the selected composite signal has no burst (black and white signal) or when the color circuit is activated.

[Xer Xian]

Gotta share here this little gem I've just discovered:



Probably the only non-TATEable CRT ever made!

There are quite a few on ebay.it too:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/WORKING-RARE-197 ... Sw8lpZFjWQ

[OldSchoolGamer1203]

Is there any advantage of having the 14-inch variant of the F1U over its 20-inch brother? If I recall, I that it has a pitch of 0.25 mm compared to the 20-inch's 0.30 mm.

[Xer Xian]

Is there any advantage of having the 14-inch variant of the F1U over its 20-inch brother? If I recall, I that it has a pitch of 0.25 mm compared to the 20-inch's 0.30 mm.

You can only compare the mask pitch among monitors of the same size - the smaller is the screen size the finer the pitch will have to be to resolve the same resolution. A more representative parameter is the number of TV Lines (horizontal resolution), of which apparently the 20F1U has 100 more wrt to the 14F1U (900 vs. 800). This makes sense given that the 20" has a 25% less fine pitch wrt the 14" but is more than 25% larger (but other variables also enter in this matter, like the display electronics, beam size, etc).

[danielretrogamer]

Is there any advantage of having the 14-inch variant of the F1U over its 20-inch brother? If I recall, I that it has a pitch of 0.25 mm compared to the 20-inch's 0.30 mm.

The only advantage I see is that the 14" doesn't take nearly as much space, and is easier to fit in any desk and easier to tate. Great to use the same way you'd use a PC monitor. I do think having both sizes is well worth it, I use a 20" PVM with a 14" BVM by it's side to play shmups.
I believe the image quality depends much more on other stuff then pitch: how old the monitor is (hours used), cable quality and calibration.
I do not remember the specs now but I like the scanlines of an old 14" HR PVM (1995) better then the image of a newer (2004) non-HR one which uses the same tube (600 TVL).
I'd say get them all

[Fudoh]

The only advantage I see is that the 14" doesn't take nearly as much space, and is easier to fit in any desk and easier to tate.

The 14" BVMs are massive. Same width (due to the integrated control panels on the sides) and same depth as the 20" models. Just a not as high.

[Dochartaigh]

The 14" BVMs are massive. Same width (due to the integrated control panels on the sides) and same depth as the 20" models. Just a not as high.

I agree they're large, but the BVM-14F1U they're talking about doesn't have the side control panel wings, is a lot smaller than that type, and uses the regular separate BKM-10R controller.

My BVM-14F5U does definitely have the more massive size to it because of those built-in controls on the side, and actually sits on top of my D20 with maybe a bare inch to spare side-to-side (I think they may be nearly the same depth as well):

[danielretrogamer]

The only advantage I see is that the 14" doesn't take nearly as much space, and is easier to fit in any desk and easier to tate.

The 14" BVMs are massive. Same width (due to the integrated control panels on the sides) and same depth as the 20" models. Just a not as high.

True, I was thinking about 14" PVM (not BVMs) when I wrote that.
14" BVMs are indeed massive, not just because of hardware inside but maybe also because they were designed for 19" racks (like some 14" Ikegami). I have both and the Ikegami weights 15kg, the BVM only 26kg
I added rubber feet to the side of my 14" BVM so it's size (in vertical mode) matches +- the size of my 20" PVM

Fudoh, you starting this topic years ago (which made me dream of a pro CRT) is the reason I now got exactly 20 RGB monitors at home.
So thank you. These things are hard to come by here in Brazil, and I never thought I would get even one.
But they are slowly making their way into the hands of the retrogame community (instead of collecting dust in some warehouse or being dumped).

[Lawfer]

Thanks for the comparison shot! Is that a BVM-D20 below? I am asking because I am notice that the screen is not technically completely flat? As you can notice that it has a little bit of curving still.

[Fudoh]

all the 20" BVMs had that curvature. 20F1, D20, even the A20. Only the 24"+ models were flat.

[Lawfer]

all the 20" BVMs had that curvature. 20F1, D20, even the A20. Only the 24"+ models were flat.

Didn't know that, is there any reasons why they didn't/couldn't make the 20" size of the same model series not completely flat?

[Fudoh]

I just don't think that they actually updated the tubes on the 14" and 20" models since the earlier BVM models. They changed the chassis to add 720p and 1080i support, but I would be surprised if there was much evolution on the actual tubes.