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 Post subject: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:23 am 


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We know that the latest revisions of Wii consoles from 2012 has the best visual clarity compared to the other revisions, but what about the visual clarity of Wii games when played on a Wii U through component outputs? The Wii U has the actual Wii hardware inside of it (unlike say the Xbox One and PS Vita which uses software emulation to run respectively Xbox 360 and PSP games) and actual runs just like a Wii if you use it with a component (480i and 480p) or RGB scart cable (only for PAL units and limited to 480i and 576i).

Anybody noticed any difference in quality between playing Wii games on a 2012 Wii (RVL-101) and a Wii U in 480i/p?


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:47 am 



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This is something I've been curious about. Many of the games ported to Wii actually run in 240p when 480i mode is activated, but I don't know how that will work with Wii U hardware over whether or not it will be allowed to switch. Wii mode would make it seem rather obvious, but in HDMI I highly doubt it's possible.
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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:51 am 


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Just spoke with Miyamoto- he said he'd prefer if you forgot about the Wii U altogether, and sends his condolences.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:52 am 


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http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1208264#p1208264


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:10 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:


Wii games using component is not the same as Wii games using HDMI. For one, with HDMI you will not get a 4:3 aspect ratio, but you will get a 16:9 output with black bars on the left and right sides for the games that are 4:3 such as Opoona, secondly, with component there is no 16-235, this is a digital thing, if you manage to send a 16-235 signal to an analogue display (CRT), the blacks will be grey, 16-235 is for digital display such as LCD. For Wii games running on the Wii U using the Wii component cable or the Wii Scart cable (only released in Europe and only works on PAL Wii/Wii U) will run the same way as they would on a Wii if running in 480i/p.


tjstogy wrote:
Just spoke with Miyamoto- he said he'd prefer if you forgot about the Wii U altogether, and sends his condolences.


Too late, already spent 300 bucks on the thing, better make use of it at least....


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:22 am 


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Same :( :(

Lawfer wrote:

tjstogy wrote:
Just spoke with Miyamoto- he said he'd prefer if you forgot about the Wii U altogether, and sends his condolences.


Too late, already spent 300 bucks on the thing, better make use of it at least....


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:34 am 


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Lawfer wrote:
Wii games using component is not the same as Wii games using HDMI. For one, with HDMI you will not get a 4:3 aspect ratio, but you will get a 16:9 output with black bars on the left and right sides for the games that are 4:3 such as Opoona, secondly, with component there is no 16-235, this is a digital thing, if you manage to send a 16-235 signal to an analogue display (CRT), the blacks will be grey, 16-235 is for digital display such as LCD. For Wii games running on the Wii U using the Wii component cable or the Wii Scart cable (only released in Europe and only works on PAL Wii/Wii U) will run the same way as they would on a Wii if running in 480i/p.


I'm pretty sure everything Extrems said in that post still apply when using component output, just maybe not the colorspace conversion? And as a side note I'm also pretty sure the 16-235 thing existed in broadcast long before digital displays ever existed, it's wrapped into the whole NTSC blacker than black thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:20 am 


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Lawfer wrote:
with component there is no 16-235, this is a digital thing

Wrong

Quote:
if you manage to send a 16-235 signal to an analogue display (CRT), the blacks will be grey

Your CRT is misadjusted.

Quote:
16-235 is for digital display such as LCD

"16-235" was agreed upon in 1981. CRTs were still the norm back then.
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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:08 am 


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If you transfer the idea of limited range signals to a DC offset used on analogue component signals, then yes.

But what's more important on the consumer end (and what lawfer meant): there aren't two versions in general use. If your display is calibrated using a PS2's component output (or that of a DVD player), then the WiiU won't suddently use a different voltage range to render the brightness levels.

I find the use of limited range RGB on HDMI just wrong. One of the most horrible decisions on the HDMI specs. Full range RGB (as used on DVI) is the way to go and if somebody wants limited range (maybe to stay true to the digital YCbCr compression on DVD/BD/DVB), just use YCbCr 4:4:4 over HDMI in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:42 am 


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Hum nothing? What nobody ever made any comparison between:

480i/p Component Wii games on the RVL-101 Wii vs 480i/p Component Wii games on the Wii U? Just want to figure out if there is a further gain in sharpness, such as there was between the RVL-001 Wii and the RVL-101 Wii revision which has been confirmed in 2014.


bobrocks95 wrote:
I'm pretty sure everything Extrems said in that post still apply when using component output


From the way he talks about it seems to indicate that he tested Wii games through HDMI, not component, from what I understand playing Wii games on the Wii U using component the games will run as they would on a Wii. I just tested some Wii games on the Wii U with component cables in 480i/p and I didn't notice any glaring issues compared to how the games look when played on my RVL-CPU-30 US Wii with component in 480i/p, basically it seems the limited range RGB of the Wii U only affects games when ran through HDMI and the other issues such as upscaling stems from HDMI, by restricting it to component without upscaling (so 480i/p only) you can avoid these mentioned issues.

Though I don't have the tools to do a more in-depth testing and comparison like this:

viewtopic.php?p=1066811#p1066811


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:59 pm 


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All outputs have the same problems (where relevant).


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:46 am 


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Lawfer wrote:
just tested some Wii games on the Wii U with component cables in 480i/p and I didn't notice any glaring issues compared to how the games look when played on my RVL-CPU-30 US Wii with component in 480i/p,


Then you didn't look close enough. Wii U does not show pixels 1:1 in 480p or 480i mode. There's a layer of scaling added. It makes everything look blurry and just a little "off". I've tested them back to back on my PC CRT monitor, with the same component cable.

An original Wii is the only proper way to play Wii games at 480p/i


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:55 am 



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Good to know. F'ing Nintendo. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:39 am 


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BazookaBen wrote:
An original Wii is the only proper way to play Wii games at 480p/i


Is that so? Damn, F'ing Nintendo!

Anyway thanks for the confirmation, guess i'll stick with my RVL-CPU-30 (even if it doesn't have the best output compared to the RVL-101 models) and maybe I might get a RVL-101 down the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:08 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
BazookaBen wrote:
An original Wii is the only proper way to play Wii games at 480p/i


Is that so? Damn, F'ing Nintendo!

Anyway thanks for the confirmation, guess i'll stick with my RVL-CPU-30 (even if it doesn't have the best output compared to the RVL-101 models) and maybe I might get a RVL-101 down the line.

The best option for Wii is an RVL-CPU-60 since it's the very last revision of the GameCube Wii and has picture quality on par with the RVL-101 models.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:35 pm 


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Did Nintendo ever get something right/stand on top of what was current when it comes to video quality or backwards compatibility? :lol:

You generally have to hunt down specific revisions (1CHIP SNES, later Wii's), or outright mod the hardware (NES,N64), or softmod to restore BC (Wii U's Nintendon't, but I'd guess it's bad anyway?). The Gamecube with its digital out is probably the only exception (but we never got to enjoy that in Europe). They did manage to screw up GB/GBA support via botched GBPlayer software though..


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:44 pm 


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If someone with the right knowledge looked into this, the vWii video output problems could potentially be fixed. The Wii U has a microcontroller called the DMCU which emulates the Wii's video interface (VI) and it runs its own firmware. I posted this info here:-
viewtopic.php?p=1208779#p1208779
Its worth noting that cafe2wii loads the DMCU firmware when vWii mode is started, and the DMCU is only used for vWii mode, so in theory it should be quite safe to disassemble/hack the DMCU firmware until you get the desired results without any risk of bricking the Wii U. Nintendo themseleves updated the cafe2wii title (0005001010004000) to v1 with system update 4.0.0, although they dont appear to have fixed any of the issues Extrems mentioned :(

GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
BazookaBen wrote:
An original Wii is the only proper way to play Wii games at 480p/i


Is that so? Damn, F'ing Nintendo!

Anyway thanks for the confirmation, guess i'll stick with my RVL-CPU-30 (even if it doesn't have the best output compared to the RVL-101 models) and maybe I might get a RVL-101 down the line.

The best option for Wii is an RVL-CPU-60 since it's the very last revision of the GameCube Wii and has picture quality on par with the RVL-101 models.

I would love to know how it was determined that only the later Wii's have better component output. All the information I have seen doesn't appear to make it clear what motherboard revision was being tested/compared, or what brand/model of DAC/Video Encoder chip was inside the Wii. I posted some info here:-
viewtopic.php?p=1209465#p1209465
But nobody really answered :(


Last edited by Link83 on Sun May 07, 2017 12:44 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:15 pm 


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It still feels like someone just arbitrarily decided component looks better on the newer revision, and it circulated around as true. At this point, though, might as well just go with an HDMI mod imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:05 pm 


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Let's try to settle this for good.

Source RGB 720x480 (simulated)
Source YCbCr 720x480 (simulated)

GameCube YPbPr 480i (deflicker off)
GameCube YPbPr 480i2x (deflicker off)
GameCube YPbPr 480p

Wii YPbPr 480i (deflicker off)
Wii YPbPr 480p

Wii U YPbPr 480i
Wii U YPbPr 480p
Wii U YPbPr 720p (bad cable)
Wii U YPbPr 720p (Rec. 601) (bad cable)
Wii U YPbPr 1080i (bad cable)
Wii U YPbPr 1080i (Rec. 601) (bad cable)

Wii U HDMI 480p
Wii U HDMI 720p
Wii U HDMI 720p (Rec. 601)
Wii U HDMI 1080i
Wii U HDMI 1080i (Rec. 601)

Wii U GamePad (simulated)

Source RGB 720x576 (simulated)
Source YCbCr 720x576 (simulated)

GameCube YPbPr 576i (deflicker off)
GameCube YPbPr 576i2x (deflicker off)
GameCube YPbPr 576p

Wii YPbPr 576i (deflicker off)
Wii YPbPr 576p

Wii U YPbPr 576i
Wii U YPbPr 576p
Wii U YPbPr 720p50 (bad cable)
Wii U YPbPr 720p50 (Rec. 601) (bad cable)
Wii U YPbPr 1080i50 (bad cable)
Wii U YPbPr 1080i50 (Rec. 601) (bad cable)

Wii U HDMI 576p
Wii U HDMI 720p50
Wii U HDMI 720p50 (Rec. 601)
Wii U HDMI 1080i50
Wii U HDMI 1080i50 (Rec. 601)

Wii U GamePad 50Hz (simulated)


Last edited by Extrems on Mon May 08, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:33 pm 


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Xer Xian wrote:
Did Nintendo ever get something right/stand on top of what was current when it comes to video quality or backwards compatibility? :lol:


Yeah, on the Nintendo Switch. it has HDMI output up to 1080p with Full Range RGB being finally available.

Before that, not at all. They cancelled RGB output for Nintendo 64 mid production resulting in Nintendo 64 which had unfinished RGB output board capabilities, locked out analogue RGB output for the GameCube and Wii only for PAL units, released the Wii U locked to limited range RGB, released the Wii which was analogue only and 4:3 SDTV in the age of HDMI/Digital and Widescreen (some Wii games such as Nights: Journey of Dreams apparently supported Dolby Digital, which could never be taken advantage of), removed component output capabilities out of the GameCube, the list goes on... Outside of video capabilities there is the fact that both the Wii U and Nintendo Switch only have about 25Gb of internal memory (they say 32Gb, but you don't get that), so you can basically install 1 game at most on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 11:19 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
It still feels like someone just arbitrarily decided component looks better on the newer revision, and it circulated around as true.


You just described 50% of this community's knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 3:50 am 


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Extrems wrote:
Let's try to settle this for good.


Irony: The text (town names) is completely unreadable on the Wii, but perfectly legible on the Wii U. So even if the Wii U image is softer and broken in all sorts of ways, it does seem that there is more detail in that softer image.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 6:53 am 


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Extrems wrote:
Wii U YPbPr 480i
Wii U YPbPr 480p


Weird. My Wii acts completely different; it's almost as if you had swapped the screenshots by accident.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:07 am 


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Thomago wrote:
Extrems wrote:
Wii U YPbPr 480i
Wii U YPbPr 480p


Weird. My Wii acts completely different; it's almost as if you had swapped the screenshots by accident.


Is that based on CRT or LCD?


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 12:00 pm 


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Based on LCD + OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 1:00 pm 


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Thomago wrote:
Weird. My Wii acts completely different; it's almost as if you had swapped the screenshots by accident.

I've double-checked and I didn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 1:20 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
All outputs have the same problems (where relevant).

Extrems, do you think anyone will ever look into modifying the Wii U DMCU firmware to fix the problems you mentioned?


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 2:41 pm 



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Extrems wrote:

That's impressively bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:27 pm 



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Lord of Pirates wrote:
That's impressively bad.

What about it is bad exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: Any comparisons between the Wii and Wii U for Wii games?
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 5:05 pm 


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The worst part about it is that while the 480p/576p resolution is supposed to give a native output, you still get a scaled and blurred output. The upscaled images look better since they use an unscaled base image, but they still show massive chroma delay on colored edges.


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