Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[kitten]

i will admit that legacy of the wizard feels like it was made with love and warmth, despite how obtuse & demanding it is, but holy shit is it incredibly obtuse and demanding. it has some really interesting level geography (from a visual standpoint, check out a full map), spritework, cute abilities, great soundtrack, etc. the whole family theme is really adorable, too. it's just. holy shit. i can't imagine having finished this without a guide in less than like 20+ hours of severely agonizing trial and error & mapping, and even then there are a few things i feel i'd have had to look up.

it's not at all easy, even when knowing exactly what to do, too. the mother's area is especially cruel in how far it expects you to trek, and it's really easy to fuck yourself on resources and make her trek impossible to finish without realizing how much MP you'd need to get through it.

imo, these types of games died out and often didn't even make it over to this territory for a reason, but i do consider playing some of them to be crucial to the context of japanese game design at the time... and this is one of relatively few to get localized. the dragon slayer series, druaga, maze of galious, etc. - all very popular and influential over there, at the time, but relatively unheard of, here. i've often heard the maze of galious' (majou densetsu II, i believe?) was butchered in its port to the famicom and that the msx version reigns supreme, but i HIGHLY recommend legacy of the wizard over it. while galious may have some fancy konami production values, it is much more soulless & cruel a game. by the end of legacy of the wizard, i had some bizarre fondness of it and its unique charm, but by the end of galious, i was at some of the most peak misery i've ever experienced playing a game (and yet, somehow, wouldn't trade away the experience as i found it a crucial learning experience - but holy shit is that a specific-to-me kinda thing i don't recommend others do).

getting in the proper mindset to appreciate these games is kind of hard and replicating the experience of having that one friend who had the guidebook and some vague advice to get you through the parts that would otherwise keep you stuck for hours is almost impossible, though. these games simply have not aged very well. if you want really good maze-like exploration experiences, i honestly feel like king's field II (king's field US) and other from software games are pretty much premium, so long as you're not bothered by the switch to 3d.

[BIL]

I didn't find Wizard that hard tbh. Lengthy, yes - finished it over four weeknights / 12 hours or so, I think? Seemed about par for ARPG-leaning stuff of the era. It definitely felt (and still feels) immense in scale, but once I realised how strict the dungeon's hub/spoke layout was, it rapidly fell into place. Once you're making headway into a sub-area, the only way is forward. If you're using the wrong character, or lack their relevant gear, you won't make it more than a few screens in before getting brickwalled and having to turn back. My DSIV manual's in Japanese, ofc, so I printed out the NES Wizard one - other than that I didn't need a walkthrough. Very oblique but also relatively simple game about breaking blocks to open paths, and finding/using tools to shove blocks for same. Smash everything, as Tony the Pimp might say!

Meyna/Mother's endurance-themed area is definitely the most sadistic, but after the third time underestimating its length and dying of MP exhaustion I just overstocked like crazy, while carefully rationing my moves (weapons and movement drawing on the same MP pool is probably the game system's one outstanding feature - very survivalist). It's not my favourite segment of the game (that'd be Lyll/Daughter's more platformer-themed area) but it's the most memorably "dungeon."

It was actually the bosses that intimidated me initially, since I tried fighting them like in a conventional action game, ie out in the open. lol no. That'll work for the first couple, maybe, if you draw lucky character matchups (Xemn/Father smashes crabthingy), but the latter two will erase your HP with nonstop undodgeable bullshit. Easily dealt with via more tactical approaches, though.

[Squire Grooktook]

I've had the cartridge since childhood, and while I think I can recall every single individual room in that map, I don't think I encountered a boss once

[BIL]

There's a good reason for that but I won't spoil it. ;3 edit: er, at least not without a spoiler tag! Basically

Spoiler

once you find the chest with the crown and grab it, the boss is all "WELCOME IN MY HELLISH WORLD" and you get dumped in their arena - typically taking 1HP fall damage, lmao! Kill the boss and you get warped back home.

[kitten]

didn't consider consulting the manual, as i didn't have one while playing my US copy. the information present in there might have possibly caused me to lower my time estimate of how long the game would take to complete. there's still a lot of nonsense things you need to do, like bust unmarked ceiling/floor tiles. that can come together when mapping the game out, but it can still be jarringly cruel. many of the hidden things are largely unmarked and involve doing some stuff that just doesn't make a lot of sense. throwing yourself at every wall is one of my most-hated parts of metroid, and it's much worse in lotw in how many times you're required to do something along those lines. i like that many things in metroid are entirely optional, even if its map becomes quite repetitive.

god, the bosses in DSIV/LotW are especially cruel if you fight them in a poor order, too. each character has notably different capabilities, and it's possible to save a weaker character to fight a boss last - only the bosses in the game are fought linearly. whoever you reach a boss door with first fights the first boss, etc., and each section of the dungeon is intended to be handled by a single character. if you do a weaker characters' dungeon last, you fight one of the hardest bosses with them, and i think you can very nearly run yourself into an unwinnable situation. the game cruelly wipes all of your progress when you die, and sends you back a startling amount of time. for bosses that can cause you to unavoidably take repeated hits, this feels like unforgivable design.

the whole game feels completely filled to the brim with things that are easy for designers to include (bustable ceiling/floor tiles, hidden items, dead-ends, cruel bosses that spam projectiles) that can cause hours of player time to be wasted. it's not so much that i mind open & non-linear games (again, i love king's field II significantly), it's just that i despise these little things that are done that radically expand the time you'll spend with the game without feeling cleverly implemented.

game is still cute and definitely one of the better of these games to play, at least.

[Vanguard]

I just played through Actraiser 2 for the first time. Interesting game! Reminds me of Street Fighter 2010 with its super versatile but highly unconventional protagonist. The game really clicked once I started doing the dive attack into and then quickly back out of enemy hitboxes rather than using it as a dodge and a finisher. I'm not sure whether I like it better than Actraiser 1 - even though both the combat and simulation aspects of the first game are middling at best, I find the two together to be really appealing. Objectively speaking, 2 is without question the better game.

I generally prefer more agile characters with intuitive, straightforward controls over what Actraiser 2 goes for, but it's good at what it does. I do wish the Master's walk speed was a bit faster though.

I briefly tried the JP and noticed that you start with with 5 lives rather than 3. Are there other major differences between that and the US version?

[copy-paster]

Finally recorded my 1CC of NES Castlevania, I'm normally a HW player but Cross makes things different.

[Vanguard]

Finally recorded my 1CC of NES Castlevania, I'm normally a HW player but Cross makes things different.

For me it's gotta be the cross or the axe. The holy water beats bosses for free, as does the stopwatch in stages, but cross and axe are good everywhere.

The stage 6 bridge is lots of fun as long as I'm not the one playing. Didn't know you could respawn the candles in Dracula's room like that.

[BIL]

didn't consider consulting the manual, as i didn't have one while playing my US copy. the information present in there might have possibly caused me to lower my time estimate of how long the game would take to complete.

The NES manual (complete PDF scan) is surprisingly comprehensive, and comparing it to DSIV's (can't actually read the latter but oh well rofl), it seems like a direct translation rather than something Broderbund cooked up for Western audiences. For one thing, it explicitly spells out the dungeon's hub/spoke structure... that alone hugely simplifies things imo. Without that, the map could appear an incomprehensibly directionless criss-crossing nightmare. The other big help for me is just explaining what items do, and how certain characters can/can't use them. Again, that instantly clued me into the map design.

Would be interesting to know how the original MSX version's manual compares. If it's as cruelly terse as the game itself, I guess Falcom/Compile/Namco intended the FC booklet to offset the lack of info. I'd wager it's actually similarly generous.

god, the bosses in DSIV/LotW are especially cruel if you fight them in a poor order, too.

I think I actually did this on my first clear (Pochi last, pitting his worthless range against Rockdude). I am inordinately proud of my improvised work-around...

Spoiler

conquer Pochi's dungeon with Roas (best range of the group), equip the Armour plus an Elixir, and suicide-bomb the Mimic guarding the boss chest - the one you're meant to ghost through with Pochi's invulnerability. The Mimic will activate, Roas will die... and then resurrect, ready to kill the now-vulnerable fucker and snatch the crown. BOOM! Rockman sniped baybee.

...but I was left wondering if I'd have been forced to junk the whole run, failing that happy instance of good fortune and sequence wangling. Oh god lmao. Ultimately I don't mind a bit of scattershot game design in sillier action titles like this.

I just played through Actraiser 2 for the first time. Interesting game! Reminds me of Street Fighter 2010 with its super versatile but highly unconventional protagonist. The game really clicked once I started doing the dive attack into and then quickly back out of enemy hitboxes rather than using it as a dodge and a finisher. I'm not sure whether I like it better than Actraiser 1 - even though both the combat and simulation aspects of the first game are middling at best, I find the two together to be really appealing. Objectively speaking, 2 is without question the better game.

I generally prefer more agile characters with intuitive, straightforward controls over what Actraiser 2 goes for, but it's good at what it does. I do wish the Master's walk speed was a bit faster though.

I briefly tried the JP and noticed that you start with with 5 lives rather than 3. Are there other major differences between that and the US version?

Great game. The 2010SF comparison is apt, both indeed revolving around highly idiosyncratic characters concealing a ton of unconventional flexibility. I'm not too up on region differences, but if it helps Perikles posted a bit about them here and here.

[FinalBaton]

Re: Act Raiser 2, is the diving attack super duper hard to aim? I've heard by now from more than one youtuber that it was very frustrating to use. But then again, most big youtubers are scrubs. lol

Broderbund

These guys are unsung heros. Bringing that game to the west, but also friggin' Guardian Legend (one of my fave NES games of all-time). And to a lesser degree : Battle of Olympus.

God bless their souls

[BIL]

That definitely sounds like a bad case of scrubbery. The doublejump dive sword comes out instantly with no altitude requirement, it's 100% invincible & unstoppable, and it has no turnaround lag nor landing recovery. [jump, jump, down+attack] and you're all set. Besides busting straight through enemies for a side-switch, or iframing through tight attacks, it's quick enough to use as a poke like Vanguard suggests (doublejump->dive at target->connect, then immediately reverse course back to launch point), from even the most limited footing. In fact it'll actually cancel the doublejump's normal "skidding" landing animation, so you'll likely want to terminate jumps with it out of habit.

Marvelous "death from above" mechanic that perfectly folds into the game's offense=evasion ethos. Note the normal jump's downstrike functions very similarly in an anti-air context, being executable while ascending.

The magic-powered dive is a little trickier, since you've got to time the release of the attack button, but it's by no means a big ask (and naturally you won't be executing it nearly as frequently).

Broderbund

These guys are unsung heros. Bringing that game to the west, but also friggin' Guardian Legend (one of my fave NES games of all-time). And to a lesser degree : Battle of Olympus.

God bless their souls

I know right! Played all three of those BITD, much good ARPGing times were had thanks to them. (they also brought over Deadly Towers but at least gave it some \M/ETAL boxart )

[Vanguard]

Re: Act Raiser 2, is the diving attack super duper hard to aim? I've heard by now from more than one youtuber that it was very frustrating to use. But then again, most big youtubers are scrubs. lol

The dive itself is everything you could ever want in a dive attack. Invincible, high damage, and you can turn on a dime. There are a few factors that make it somewhat tricky to use. You have to double jump before performing a dive, so you need a bit of space and time to set it up. You also pass directly through enemies while diving, so if they aren't killed by the dive you need to ensure you don't land inside of their hitbox or you'll take damage.

Neither problem is too serious but you know how youtubers are.

These guys are unsung heros. Bringing that game to the west, but also friggin' Guardian Legend (one of my fave NES games of all-time). And to a lesser degree : Battle of Olympus.

God bless their souls

Two of my favorite NES games. I don't know why anyone would ever waste their time with Faxanadu when Battle of Olympus is clearly the superior Zelda 2 clone.

[Sumez]

I didn't realise Broderbund released Guardian Legend in the US too. Coincidentally that's the game I got along with LotW, strange.

The US cover is terrible though. I treasure my PAL box for the artwork, but the changes they made for the 50hz version aren't too nice...

Spoiler

[BIL]

I was just about to say, the FC box pwns NA/EU anyway so it's a bit of a moot point. PWNS 'em I tells ya.

[FinalBaton]

Yeah NTSC-U/C cover is lame. lol. Euro cover is miles better!

But JP cover is just
just like, on another level entirely. so insanely intricate and gorgeous and badass. Truly a homerun

It highlights the freaky(creepy?) bio-mechanical nature of the character, but adds a delicate and beautiful female facia, making for a truly stunning contrast. Much eerie.

I'd love a big poster of that one

[BIL]

Here's a scan of the full original artwork - might be a bit large, my potato machine kinda lags. Click for full res:



Darkly beautiful and armed to the teeth.

[kitten]

The NES manual (complete PDF scan) is surprisingly comprehensive, and comparing it to DSIV's (can't actually read the latter but oh well rofl), it seems like a direct translation rather than something Broderbund cooked up for Western audiences. For one thing, it explicitly spells out the dungeon's hub/spoke structure... that alone hugely simplifies things imo. Without that, the map could appear an incomprehensibly directionless criss-crossing nightmare. The other big help for me is just explaining what items do, and how certain characters can/can't use them. Again, that instantly clued me into the map design.

a liar wrote this manual.

naw, it's actually a pretty good one, honestly. just found that line funny.

I think I actually did this on my first clear (Pochi last, pitting his worthless range against Rockdude). I am inordinately proud of my improvised work-around...

Spoiler

conquer Pochi's dungeon with Roas (best range of the group), equip the Armour plus an Elixir, and suicide-bomb the Mimic guarding the boss chest - the one you're meant to ghost through with Pochi's invulnerability. The Mimic will activate, Roas will die... and then resurrect, ready to kill the now-vulnerable fucker and snatch the crown. BOOM! Rockman sniped baybee.

holy shit that's completely ridiculous. good bit of ingenuity.

Broderbund

These guys are unsung heros. Bringing that game to the west, but also friggin' Guardian Legend (one of my fave NES games of all-time). And to a lesser degree : Battle of Olympus.

God bless their souls

they're quite well celebrated in the apple II fan community, among other places. original publishers of a LOT of old pc classics - they're also hudson's claim to fame. hudson's port of lode runner (a broderbund game) was wildly successful in japan and is extremely fondly remembered. without that, hudson probably would have never come to be what they are, and we'd have never gotten the pc engine or a bevy of other games. heck, bomberman was inspired by the enemies they put in their lode runner port!

The US cover is terrible though. I treasure my PAL box for the artwork, but the changes they made for the 50hz version aren't too nice...

it's another one of those game covers where they just traced a movie cover

Spoiler

- - - - - - - - - -

never played battle of olympus, and don't really know much about it.

haven't played actraiser 2, either, i always heard it was worse than the first. not the case...?

- - - - - - - - - -

sat down to replay akumajou densetsu for the first time in quite a number of years. i don't think i like it at all. compared to the original, the game is severely lacking in coherent stage design and clever enemy placement. some levels feel like inconsequential stretches of nothing and others are horribly paced with terrible length and a very weird alternation between platforming and enemy-heavy areas. there's a level i went to with sypha where i was unable to figure out a way to climb a staircase without taking damage at the top of it - it immediately begins spawning in harpies dropping fleamen substitute enemies, and you don't have time to bait them away before too many spawn in to deal with. feels very poorly thought out, and the sheer amount of verticality (something castlevania/dracula really just doesn't do that great) in the game is frankly absurd.

shout-out to the hilariously poorly hitboxed spike crushers which can kill you by walking into them when they do not visually show themselves touching your character - something i discovered to pure bewilderment to kill me numerous times, each instance causing me to belt out a clearly audible and incredulous "what!?" the first game has better hitboxing on a nearly identical obstacle, and tighter demands of how you get past them, too. also, shout-out to the fact that jumping too high into the ceiling during the descending vertical sections will kill you, too. seriously, in stage 7A (the same level i complained about a moment ago), the screen starts descending, vertically, as soon as you go down a staircase. if you decide to jump over to the right instead of just fall off the platform, you can jump into the ceiling and kill yourself - which made my jaw nearly drop at how poor that was. you don't get caught on anything, you simply reach too high and die. in most other games i've played like this, you only get killed by getting stuck and crushed, in this, the top of the screen has a kill boundary. why? these are both really strangely amateurish for such a late famicom game of high prestige by konami, of all people. i would perhaps not pick on either thing in a game by another dev, but konami i hold to a much higher standard than this.

why did i have to fight one of the worst bosses in a castlevania game three separate times? that weird goon with the hammer is a braindead fight, but beating him reliably without taking damage can be surprisingly tedious. the game was absolutely nowhere near as difficult as i remembered (i game overed several times, but it seems like it would not be terribly difficult to memorize), but what really struck me far more than that in how inaccurate my memory was is just how boring it was. there are challenging and satisfying portions here and there that do pop to life, but large stretches are both visually and mechanically repetitive, and this has some of the most uninspired enemy placement in the series. when i was at stage 7, i told a friend i was "early in," because i assumed due to how little had happened, i must be (one stage missing a boss, entirely, three of them featuring the same boss - what the hell???).

the two person system also works rather abysmally. switching characters takes an excruciating amount of time, and drops need to be picked up for the both of them separately - at least in the case of sypha, who has multiple sub-weapons. you also can't pick up simon's whip extensions while playing as another character, making recovery a pain and also making switching extremely tedious. i stuck mostly to one character throughout stages, even when disadvantageous, just for the degree to which it slowed the game down to swap them around. the first castlevania is a short and tightly designed game, and i don't know what on earth happened here to make this so unwound, sprawling, and lacking in focus. why the hell does it meander so much? to what benefit does this add to the game?

sypha's subweapons can completely break some of the game's bosses and from what i remember, alucard's bat form allows you to bypass significant portions of the stage's level design. and, well, grant is just broken. each character has something that trivializes or bypasses notable portions of the game, making the intended design for some of these bits frankly confusing and hard to suss out. meat also seems much more cruelly and confusingly placed than in the first game, which was quite thoughtful as to where it hid its pot roasts. there are multiple portions where an enemy will be placed in a difficult little corner that's out of the way to go fight, which would suggest to the player that something important is over there, but it's frequently just 5 hearts or a lousy subweapon (holy water sucks in this game).

even visually, the game is highly disappointing. the first castlevania/akumajou dracula was incredibly early in the famicom lifespan and nearly without argument the most prestigious 3rd party game up to its release date. please take a look at how the pillars in this stage line up with high consistency, and how it creates a very visually pleasing and consistent environment. now, compare that to this mess. the vertical portion on the right side of the screen is outright ugly, too, and the palette for the entire stage is really questionable, in general. compare the final level in the original (bonus points for how stage 3 visually foreshadows the entire final stage - extra bonus points for dedicating unique tiles to it given the limited space) to the final level in this one, too. hell, the original is damn well thoughtfully assembled, altogether.

seriously, THIS is amateur -



look at the curtains and how they just lazily repeat the tiles in ways that don't even slightly connect the creases. with a game with this much space and this much visual flourish in some of its background elements like statues and whatnots, you skimp here? why the hell is one of the palettes blue/teal/green if you're only using it on two of those screens? to reuse a picture i've already used, compare this to cv1's balanced usage of its palettes -



note the more clever usage of tile work, too. negative space is cleverly implemented, whereas densetsu goes nuts with dirtying up the background for no good reason. several tiles are repeated, but they draw less attention to repetitive/noisy placement than in the third game. contrasts are poorly implemented in densetsu, too! the first game loves its orange/blue contrast, which really makes things pop. other visually fantastic games are a big fan of this contrast, too, given the famicom's good selection of oranges & blues. rockman 5, especially, is a master of that particularly contrast, and uses it (frequently to great extent) in seven of its 8 robot master stages. seriously, check it out - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. in particular, check out 7 (stone man) for frankly incredible visual storytelling... the way it keeps bringing you closer to the mountains in the distance really helps subtly relay feedback in your ascent of his fortress. akumajou densetsu, by comparison, is very frequently dirty, ugly, and with poorly selected contrasts.

the only thing i really and truly feel that akumajou densetsu does better than the first game is its music, and you could argue that that's cheating with the additional sound channels. it kind of predicates the quite sloppy 4th game and its looser design a lot more than i originally recalled, honestly. i don't think i'd go so far as to necessarily call the game bad - there's still something decent there and spots that feel like they could have been better arranged into greatness - but it's a serious mess.

also, lol, check out this tile soup. this is an actual screen from the game -

Spoiler

i should really go back and buy and play a copy of chronicles, i bet i'd like it a whole lot more, now that i appreciate the first so far over the third.

boy, if you had told me last year i'd be replaying ninja gaiden and akumajou densetsu and placing the former over the latter, i'd have laughed myself silly.

- -

aaaaaand here's a decent criticism by someone fonder of the game than myself, if you'd like to read this, as well.

[Sumez]

I'm shocked. But again, you disliked Mega Man 3, so I'll take your words lightly.

Castlevania 3 is my favourite game in the entire series, it's a masterpiece, and an improvement on everything the first game did.
The only thing I don't like is the stage where blocks drop from the ceiling, but if you take the Sypha route, that's a non issue. Her stages are all very good.

While I don't think either game looks particularly good, I don't really see any sense in your arguments on how CV1 has better art direction than the third. I personally think stage 7 in CV3 looks as good or better than anything else across those two games.

[Squire Grooktook]

What knocks Castlevania 3 down to the second half of my cv tier list is:

1) It's fairly static
2) It's fairly long

I can respect a lot of things the game does, but thanks to those three* things, it lacks the zest necessary to rope me into dedicating time into surmounting its formidable challenge level.

*edit: this is what happens to your brain when you stay up too late

[BIL]

haven't played actraiser 2, either, i always heard it was worse than the first. not the case...?

As sidescrolling action games, they're not comparable enough for a flat "better/worse." AR2 is idiosyncratic and flexible, AR1 is blood-simple and harshly punishing. They're both good in their respective fields but I'd have to say AR2 is the more accomplished. It's both totally unique and solidly executed, where AR1's a very competent traditional.

To be honest, most of the AR2 criticism I cared to read BITD was 1) wah it's impossible and 2) where my god sim. 1) lmao and 2) AR1's god game aspect is marvelous from an aesthetic standpoint, but I honestly find it a bit silly to play - more like I'm hitting PGDN to advance a storybook than actually governing or guiding the peoples. Sometimes I have to shoot a bat or burn a tree. I wanna get up to some real oldschool YWVH stuff like making the uppity god-emperor's cock and balls turn into a baguette which is subsequently stolen and torn to shreds by a hungry flock of seagulls, or just murdering some poor sod because he touched my box of stuff!

In darkness
Thou art mine
Eternally

Again I love the experience but it's not critical to my interests, so I don't notice its absence from AR2. I like PROFESSIONAL MODE tbh.

boy, if you had told me last year i'd be replaying ninja gaiden and akumajou densetsu and placing the former over the latter, i'd have laughed myself silly.

CVIII is definitely a case of biggerer, not necessarily betterer, but I do consider a handful of its stages (mostly clustered along the upper route) superior to CV1's. The waterway, entry hall and penultimate castle gardens are towering challenges genuinely more imposing than the first game's, not merely lengthier.

I always found both games' tiling a bit suspect tbh (there's a nasty cutoff in that CV1 screen you've posted that always irks me if I stare). But I don't rate them very highly on graphics to begin with.

Regarding Grant, he's my #1 reason to prefer US over JP. Much more interesting high-yield/high-risk stabber character. JP is a safe, boring peashooting sniper.

aaaaaand here's a decent criticism by someone fonder of the game than myself, if you'd like to read this, as well.

Pedant Powers Activate! A few points I'd like to pick at:

There is no way to both destroy this candle and claim its contents. Why the platform? If it's just decoration, okay; it's clear the player can't jump to it, so fair enough. So then why the candle? This is just baffling. It makes me think that the designers intended that the player could return here with the wall-climbing pirate Grant -- a feature not present in the final game.

Loop 2 bub! All three partners can get you that candle and its sweet sweet points.

Which isn't to say that it's a bad game at all. The controls are as crunchy as any Konami game from that era.

"Crunchy." "Any Konami game of the era." This doesn't mean anything. Crunchy? Okay, but crunchy like Super Contra? Or Snake's Revenge? Or Tiny Toons? Or Castlevania?

It's just a shame that it's all so uninterested in conversation.
The best bits never amount to more than gimmicks, and from moment to moment the game rarely acknowledges, much less rewards, the player's efforts. You play because you're the player, and that's what a player does. The game shrugs and provides some things to play through. That's the sum of the relationship.

...is this the guy who claimed Shin Contra "shoved its tongue down his throat and made love to him in the sweetest, roughest way imaginable" ? Kidding, that was Kurt Kalata, but I'm getting horribly similar vibes. Then again I'm the sort who wants a game to provide me things to play through, with tender conversation and sweet nothings strictly peripheral. In fact, if such things prove sufficiently obstructive to getting my playing done, I might tell the game to fuck off and not bother calling me back! :O (see CASTLEVANIA II which was so enamoured with its roaming world it forgot to design any dungeons)

There's a place for empty relationships, but they'll never make a list of the top romances. If you're starting from scratch, you might as well pursue something nourishing and make the world a little bit richer.

Don't link to this guy on the main forum kitten. You know I am a sensitive artistic soul as far as dead-eyed elitist pricks go, but this hippy shit will start lynchings and riots.

[kitten]

Castlevania 3 is my favourite game in the entire series, it's a masterpiece, and an improvement on everything the first game did.

it's absolutely not. regardless about whatever idea you have of the rest of the design, the pacing is absolutely shot to ribbons and i strongly considered that one of the best points of the original. it's slow and methodical, but it's short, sweet, and very much to the point. cv3's design meanders constantly and switches to agonizingly slow autoscrolling vertical segments at i think at least two or three points no matter which paths you take and just way too many stairs-heavy, vertical segments, in general. i am playing through the block-dropping stage with grant right now (who you have to play an additional stage back AND front to get - this is just sad) and it is what i would in no hyperbole call unforgivably horrid and quite possibly the worst stage in a castlevania game ever made, even counting the kuso titles.

there are also stages like this one. i think you fight five bone dragons in a row and then fight a bone dragon joke boss - this is extremely tedious. the bottom-most bit of the level on the right also shows they completely just do not give a fuck about levels visually stacking up. it really, really wouldn't have been that hard to put a little waterfall or something there.

The only thing I don't like is the stage where blocks drop from the ceiling, but if you take the Sypha route, that's a non issue. Her stages are all very good.

While I don't think either game looks particularly good, I don't really see any sense in your arguments on how CV1 has better art direction than the third. I personally think stage 7 in CV3 looks as good or better than anything else across those two games.

her stages still suffer from poor pacing and weird switches between platforming and enemy segments - and even the segments with enemies are sometimes surprisingly vacant, slow, or just too long. the fastest TAS speedrun of castlevania 3 is well more than double the time of the fastest person running cv1, too. not only is the pacing bad, but it is looooong.

when you take the restrictions on both games into account, i feel like castlevania 1's art direction far and away kicks cv3's ass. it is an absolute masterpiece of economical design and working within tight restriction. cv3 feels like artists ran away with extremely dirty tilework and pixel art.

As sidescrolling action games, they're not comparable enough for a flat "better/worse." AR2 is idiosyncratic and flexible, AR1 is blood-simple and harshly punishing. They're both good in their respective fields but I'd have to say AR2 is the more accomplished.

whenever i get back around to the first game (i never bought a cart and always just had it on the virtual console), i'll keep in mind to follow-up with the second, in this case.

CVIII is definitely a case of biggerer, not necessarily betterer, but I do consider a handful of its stages (mostly clustered along the upper route) superior to CV1's. The waterway, entry hall and penultimate castle gardens are towering challenges genuinely bigger and better than the first game's.

I always found both games' tiling a bit suspect tbh (there's a nasty cutoff in that CV1 screen you've posted that always irks me if I stare). But I don't rate them very highly on graphics to begin with.

Regarding Grant, he's my #1 reason to prefer US over JP. Much more interesting high-yield/high-risk stabber character. JP is a safe, boring peashooting sniper.

would you mind clarifying exactly which levels you're talking about? i can't recall them via your description - http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/#C

the third game repeats a lot of the first's biggest tiling problems, which feels inexcusable given the massively expanded amount of space they have to work with. given the restrictions on the first, i'm willing to forgive a few things not lining up, and i still think its palette usage is better.

what all does he do differently? i don't think i've ever played him on the us version. i know he's apparently short range, but are his damage values different? can he kill quicker?

Don't ever link to this guy on the forum kitten. This hippy shit will start a lynching.

i like some of aderack's writing and feel like he occasionally makes some good points (there's some decent analysis in that link and i maintain that), but he is definitely influenced by academia and drips into weirdly purple, sometimes philosophical bullshit way too often. this is my problem with most of what was coined "alt crit" - rather than examine mechanics in a head-on way, they delve into this journalistic writing about personal experiences that end up completely unable to be transferred to another person.

case in point, this article, which i'm almost certain you'll get either a laugh or burst blood vessel out of:

http://www.aderack.com/journal/2016/08/ ... he-uterus/

there are some good points in that article that i agree with a lot. some good perspective, honestly. but way, way too much total nonsense. the whole alt crit community is obsessed with this kind of review, too. one where you take some intensely sideways, personal look at the game, and then authoritatively assert that it is definitely, deliberately designed that way and a brilliant work of art because of it. yes, i am sure the video game that rewards you with a girl in a bikini for beating it quickly has extremely sophisticated commentary on the reproductive system.

i am fine with people taking a journal-esque view of games, but only when they deliberately state that. "hey, this is my interpretation and this is how i get something out of the game's themes" is fine to write about, even interesting, but "the whole game is supposed to be womblike" (an exact quote) is just, uh, hold on a second, buddy. is contra, then, supposed to be a penis? the waterfall stage sure is phallic, and it's topped with a big meaty fucker that spits at ya. yes, advanced commentary on toxic masculinity. anything is whatever you want it when you're writing like this!

[BIL]

would you mind clarifying exactly which levels you're talking about? i can't recall them via your description - http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/#C

I can never keep track of the game's convoluted stage numbering. Waterway = the merman+raven stream, boss is a pair of water dragons. Entryway = CV1 redux with Vampire Killer BGM, boss is Death. Penultimate stage = gardens, waterfall, boss is Doppleganger. I know you said you don't like the older CVs' verticality, so you probably won't dig the last's waterfall/bonepillar/gargoyle segment, but I fookin love battling my way up while gauging the relentless pincer threats. Brutal pressure.

what all does he do differently? i don't think i've ever played him on the us version. i know he's apparently short range, but are his damage values different? can he kill quicker?

He's actually the game's fastest melee killer, and he can use triple Axe and triple Daggers as well. Much more destructive and visceral than AD's snoozefest. I like closing in on axe armours and stabbing the fuck out of them, gritty. :O The game plays almost more like Ninja Gaiden as him, so as you might imagine I dig it. ;3

Trevor+Grant Loop 2 is possibly my favourite oldschool CV challenge, with the strong caveat that I know exactly which stages I like, and which I don't. It's inherently a mixed bag but I do think good stuff is very much there.

[Sumez]

I feel like Kitten played a completely different game than I did. What is wrong with the "pacing"? It's a bigger game than the first, but due to the branching paths, it's always short enough for a frisk playthrough to be fairly accessible when you're familiar with the game. Despite its length it offers a bit more variation, and stages that give a sense of location in the game's world, in turn resulting in a sense of progress (which the last game kinda lacked save from the very first and last stages).
The game is fun throughout, and is definitely one of the most rewarding clears on the NES IMO, where CV1 never feels as demanding. I love both games, and to me CV3 picked up exactly where CV1 ended, just giving me more of what I already loved. I guess a bit more variation in the bosses could have been an improvement, but the repeats never really bothered me.

[BIL]

I don't put much between them tbh, other than the most obvious point that CV1 is lean and taut while CV3 is massive and has tons of content, some of it better than others.

[kitten]

He's actually the game's fastest melee killer, and he can use triple Axe and triple Daggers as well. Much more destructive and visceral than AD's snoozefest. I like closing in on axe armours and stabbing the fuck out of them, gritty. :O The game plays almost more like Ninja Gaiden as him, so as you might imagine I dig it. ;3

i have near exclusively heard his changes referred to as a "nerf" and this sounds like anything but. almost certainly commentary from people who think his free ranged attack, despite the incredibly weak attack power and slow fire rate, are some sort of godsend because he can pick people off at a range.

sumez, i already went into detail about the pacing. many levels are overtly long or repetitive and have dull stretches of few/boring enemies or forsake enemies entirely for some kind of weak platforming. think about the at least two instances in which the pendulum platforms show up - easy platforming with no enemies. or the at least two instances in which the lever platforms show up without enemies. how about the blocks that disappear, or the blocks that form? the numerous, sluggishly moving auto-scrolling segments? how about the fact you have to go through and tediously backtrack from an entire level just to get grant? people treat the block stage as some sort of 100% aberrant rogue, but the game's design is riddled with excess and unevenness. compare the levels to the the original game's - some of them are double the amount of screens, and the only stretches of nothing in the first game are a brief few screens to set up the opening and ending. it's very noticeably different and my observation is far from unfounded, regardless of your feelings toward the game.

[FinalBaton]

I really like CV3 but I have to say that I prefer CV1 to it a good deal. It just feels like a tighter experience to me (which is easier to achieve in a shorter, linear game, granted).

I hate the Ghost Ship stage, it just looks so damn ugly >w< way too much grey, and no other colour that pop. It really looks boring. And the music is anemic too. Yet I always play it because I want nothing to do with the falling block stage, lol.

I have yet to master the 3rd screen in the A-01 stage(final stretch), lol that hallway is KICKING MY ASS. Turbo bats who come in from both directions while you have to take on bone pillars, who you can't come close cuz crumbling floor, is pretty insane.

I'll say though : the final form of Drac is a DAMN FUN FIGHT!

[BIL]

I think at this point it's important to distinguish between Akumajou Densetsu and CVIII. I've not played either recently enough to comment with the authority I like, but on my last revisit I came away thinking their balancing was nearly as different as Ninja Ryukenden III and Ninja Gaiden III. I remember Perikles and Austin both pointing things out, like harsher powerup distribution and faster enemy projectiles respectively, that turned trivial stretches of AD into stern challenges for CVIII.

There's also CVIII's gruelingly hard loop, which is the standard I judge it by. Regardless of how you feel about the game's length, the intensity of it surpasses anything CV1 can muster. I have an easier time 2-ALLing CV1 with the dagger than clearing CVIII's loop with a fully outfitted pair of characters. One version won't necessarily reverse a player's opinion of the other, but they are different enough that people can end up talking past each other if they're interchanging them.

Also, I think article chap meant "crisp," not "crunchy." The former makes sense - despite the starkly different handling models, Contra and Castlevania controls are generally very crisp! (ignoring the latter's Achilles' heel, Subweapons On Stairs). If he really went for crunchy though, I just don't know what to say, other than I'm going to kill myself!

[copy-paster]

The stage 6 bridge is lots of fun as long as I'm not the one playing.

That section was like a run ender for 1LC attempts with those rng bats.

Turbo bats who come in from both directions while you have to take on bone pillars is pretty insane.

I'll say though : the final form of Drac is a DAMN FUN FIGHT!

If you have double/tripe cross, just throw to the bone pillars while walking. As much as I like AD, I'd still prefer huge laser beams instead of tiny peashooter.

[Blinge]

I have yet to master the 3rd screen in the A-01 stage(final stretch), lol that hallway is KICKING MY ASS. Turbo bats who come in from both directions while you have to take on bone pillars, who you can't come close cuz crumbling floor, is pretty insane.

Heh, I just walked into the bone pillar and took the hit to get through. Not mastering it, but it is a solution.

I played CVIII last year as a longer project, using the passwords (or save states to that effect) then spending a session on one or two levels at a time until I reached the end. Thus I avoided feeling like the game was too long or paced badly.
I have tried the falling block section, one session was enough for me to never want to play that part again.

Gonna just pussy out with Sypha's route from now on.

Kitten I don't see the point in complaining about stuff like Grant's Tower, you can just avoid it altogether.
Personally I like the return trip, it's more than mere backtracking; the way down provides its own challenges, and you have a new character to approach them with.
*sticks head up own ass* It re-contextualises the whole area yah yah..

[kitten]

i've played through both CVIII and AD several times, but only AD, recently. i remember thinking that CVIII was harder, but not enough so to make them really notably different games. the biggest thing i remember being different is damage being variable in AD based on the enemy, but variable in CVIII based on the stage (starts at 2, ratchets up to 4, i think - iirc the first cv does the same thing). some of the partners take ludicrous damage to weird things in AD (grant and sypha both take FIVE from a few enemies, i think sypha's flame when cast by the doppleganger does six!!). i do own both versions of the game, at least. not sure i'll bother giving the 2nd loop a whirl or if i'll even 1cc either version, any time soon. too much on my plate and i was really bored during both plays i did today of the game - i don't think it rapping my knuckles more quickly is going to do anything to fix some deeply inherent issues.

i don't disagree that some portions of the game are exciting or intense (and in meaningful, enjoyable ways), but they're kind of few and far between when compared to the first game's very consistent, snappy pace. i feel like i've got to dig at this game to get to the meat, and i don't even necessarily want just raw intensity, but more often an enjoyable, casual game session (or, hell, maybe even a one-and-done, beat it once and i'm done with it for years). even the better levels in CVIII/AD have some unnecessary fat in them that could be trimmed and getting to them always requires at least a couple of highly bumpy or dull levels to get there. it's just not worth it, especially to someone who hasn't even 2-all'd the first game, yet, and for whom the first game can still thrill. i tend to do most of my evaluation of a game on its base, and not what it can be when taken to an extreme and selectively portioned.

i mean, it's not like i had to turn over a rock to find the block level, or to get there without alucard, and that shit is both glaringly and indefensibly bad. many people's only experience with the game involve that level on their route, and it's the game, not them, that i blame for their negative opinion. i value the suggestion that the game has something to offer on a higher level, but i feel like i've had a taste and not really liked all the filler. this is definitely a different case than ninja gaiden - where i was eating the goddamn wrapper and complaining the candy wasn't good.

- - - -

went and checked tcrf before posting, man, the changes are more numerous than i remember. cvIII seems like it had a lot of little bits of tuning done for it! i can't say all of them are good, though, there's quite a few hp boosts that just seem shitty. feel like it would have been way better for them to focus on redesigning some of the more lackluster levels than uselessly fretting over how players can kill the already chunky axe armors in too few hits. also, shame about the music - i just can't abide by that butchered music.

https://tcrf.net/Castlevania_III:_Dracu ... ifferences

In Akumajou Densetsu, Bone Dragons can be damaged by weapon contact anywhere rather than just the head and only take 9 whip hits to kill. In Castlevania III, they take 11 whip hits to kill.

lmao, eat shit whoever did this. that is such a petty change and holy god would it make that awful stretch in the atlantis level even more dreadful.

Kitten I don't see the point in complaining about stuff like Grant's Tower, you can just avoid it altogether.

i feel like this is a very common and mostly useless bit of defense in favor of games that slip up in their design. that's a lot of the game to ignore and an entire playable character to discount. if the designers put something in the game, the suggestion is that it's there to be played and judged on that merit. BIL acknowledges the game being a mixed bag and having both weak and strong levels - a much better approach than "you don't have to..." sometimes, games are better when ignoring portions of their design, but that doesn't nullify criticism.

also, in this case, there is definitely no miracle path that somehow 100% avoids shitty levels or shitty segments of better levels. at some point, my complaints start picking at every conceivable route. besides, even if there were a some sort of miracle path, is it not to the game's detriment that it now contains so much useless content as a red herring for beginners and casual players?