Why can't religious people lighten up a bit? A polite rant

[professor ganson]

I can understand that this is a difficult world to live in, and that religion provides comfort for some people. So it makes some sense to me that people are sometimes drawn to religion.

But so often religion is the source of such intolerance, and even violence. Who cares if someone else doesn't have the same views as you? Who cares if someone makes a cartoon that pokes fun at your religion? Who cares if people of the same sex get married? Aren't there more important things to worry about???

These matters are so unbelievably obvious to me. And yet it seems that everywhere I look religious people have so little tolerance for other people's beliefs, jokes, sex life... If others were clearly harmed by these activities, then intolerance might make sense. Sometimes I just find other people so completely puzzling.

[howmuchkeefe]

I don't think any idea, no matter how trivial or limited in scope, can suffer the existence of competing ideas for long.

Religion is taking quite a beating, and it is clear that the more fundamental flavors of it are dead wrong, enough so for any fundamentalist with two grey cells to rub together to feel mighty self-conscious about it. They feel threatened, in general; from evolution to progressive attitudes about gay marriage and free speech (disambiguation: censorship is never progressive), they're practically cornered.

Cornered animals that fear for their lives often act in a dangerous manner, especially predatory creatures. How I wish that the militant fundamentalist religions would emulate the rabbit, instead of the bear, and simply drop dead from fright!

[Blade]

Try looking at it from the point of view of the person who is into a specific religious belief. Usually that sort of thing is their way of life. And when someone else tramples on that, what have they got to live for?

Imagine you're standing in a room (life) and there's a rope in the middle of the room (religion), then all of a sudden the floor drops out from under your feet. That rope is all you have to cling to in this nonsensical world. When you put it in that perspective, religion is a necessity for people.

It helps people rationalise the things that don't make sense to them and gives them hope. Now, before you state that sometimes that hope is a lie, understand that hope is a feeling that leads to actions that let a person live. If that person is alive due to a false religion, it doesn't matter if the religion is false...that person is a true, live, human being.

I'm not one to say what is and is not true about belief or whether or not there are high beings out in this vast existence of ours...but I do know that all life and people's feelings are important. And because I know this, I've learned to respect all life...regardless of what it thinks it knows or what it believes in.

[Diabollokus]

I've thought about this for years, I arrived at 2 conclusions

either theres one logical religion that everybody in the world stands united in, with enough room for atheists like myself to pretend we're okay with, or no religion period.

Yet there will always be separatists, giving rise to other beliefs..........

Its a vicious cycle I just ignore religion, live life the way I want. Someone out there needs to form A.S.S ( the Atheist, Social, Society) I feel we are very under represented.

[Blade]

In my experience, it's the other way around...

For every Christian there's at least 5 Atheists calling him or her an idiot.

Especially, it seems, on the internet.

[magnum opus]

In my experience, it's the other way around...

For every Christian there's at least 5 Atheists calling him or her an idiot.

Especially, it seems, on the internet.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf
according to the 2001 census out of 207 million adults
900 thousand identify themselves as athiests
or .4% of the population
for every 5 athiests there are 886 christians (thats christians not just religious people)
you decide which one is out numbered


if christians are "under represented" it's because the vast majority of them understand that their religion is not compatible with their government and see no reason to have it any other way.

[it290]

^^ In the places you frequent, maybe. But if you look at the numbers you can easily see that's not the case. Also, there are plenty of religious people who don't believe in dictacting how others should behave. Atheists do tend to be more vocal about it, though, since they have to deal with a lot of stigma in general (although perhaps not as much as complete fundamentalist types do).

edit - above directed at Blade

[magnum opus]

Atheists do tend to be more vocal about it, though, since they have to deal with a lot of stigma in general

for serious man

* Robert Sherman: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"
Bush: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

— President George H. W. Bush, August 27 1987; see Free Inquiry magazine, Fall 1988, Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.

[Nemo]

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing. It's ironic that spiritual/religous people are often looked at as weak as they are seen as using their beliefs as a crutch, yet the truly weak people are the ones that can believe in something that isn't right in front of their face and think every person is his/her own judge and master. Yet, faiths that do promote persecution and kinds of discrimination are flawed and unrighteous, but at the same time, having standards and discipline is extremely important. This is the great balance between trying to improve things that are wrong and destructive while not being equally or more destructive towards the people doing the wrong.

[magnum opus]

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing.

i don't believe in nothing.

i believe that every one deserves respect
i believe that people should be responsible for their actions
i believe justice, freedom and privacy are necessary for a happy life
i believe in helping my fellow terrans
i believe that those we place our trust in have an obligation to respect that trust
i believe that every one is equal

yet the truly weak people are the ones that can believe in something that isn't right in front of their face and

not can't: don't need to

think every person is his/her own judge and master.

okay your going to have to explain how expecting people to have personal responsibility and integrity to be weakness, cause yeah i can't see it

Yet, faiths that do promote persecution and kinds of discrimination are flawed and unrighteous,

so all abrahamic faiths?

but at the same time, having standards and discipline is extremely important. .

amazingly i have both.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

For me, religion is just another way of brain control/washing. For example, if religion X says something is wrong, thousands of its believers will think it is without using their brains to assess right or wrong.

Another thing I don't like about just every religion is that they try to scare you into them. Everytime someone tells me I'll burn in hell for not believing in their religion, I believe in it less.

[Damocles]

Funny...just the other day I was conversing with a monk about how he thought no one should blindly follow their religion. Always question.

I'm an atheist.
I recieved my undergrad from a Catholic college.

..........they paid well for ACT scores. *shrug*

[sethsez]

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing.

There's a vast difference between believing in nothing and admitting a lack of infinite knowledge. "I don't know, let's find out" is far more useful than "I don't know, let's assume and leave it at that."

[Acid King]

It's because so many people have an incessant urge to tell other people how they should live and to dictate arbitrary one size fits all rules instead of just letting people live their own way.

[Ganelon]

Only Abrahamic religions seem to cause all this bullshit. If they'd just learn to have faith in themselves and stop trying to force everybody else to live by their beliefs, everything would be alright.

Then again, the recent cartoon controversy seems to be a gray line. Yes, the offended Muslims ought to let God punish the artists, Allah willing, rather than take revenge in their own hands. Howevver, is there any real point in choosing possibly the one harmless yet very offensive slight to their religion for a joke?

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Funny...just the other day I was conversing with a monk about how he thought no one should blindly follow their religion. Always question.

I'm an atheist.
I recieved my undergrad from a Catholic college.

..........they paid well for ACT scores. *shrug*

I believe that members of every religion have some beliefs that they don't question and believe blindly. Because otherwise they wouldn't be in that religion. For example, all christians believe that god is love, all-good, etc. but I think that's far from being true. That's why I am not christian.

Oh yeah, I spent part of my junior high days and my whole HS career in catholic schools. God knows how I turned into a heathen.

[Tar-Palantir]

There are some beliefs we believe, and some beliefs we don't believe. Of the beliefs we don't believe, there are those which we believe we don't believe, and those which we don't believe we don't believe.

[Nemo]

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing.

i don't believe in nothing.

i believe that every one deserves respect
i believe that people should be responsible for their actions
i believe justice, freedom and privacy are necessary for a happy life
i believe in helping my fellow terrans
i believe that those we place our trust in have an obligation to respect that trust
i believe that every one is equal

First of all, what are the source of these beliefs (because I'm sure you didn't just wake up one day with them in your head)? Plus, all of those things are conditional rather than absolute, so their more like feelings or ideas.

think every person is his/her own judge and master.

okay your going to have to explain how expecting people to have personal responsibility and integrity to be weakness, cause yeah i can't see it

Because if you only answer to yourself, your sense of responsibility and integrity is completely different than that of another person, therefore anyone can and will rationalize any behavior which leads to anarchy.

but at the same time, having standards and discipline is extremely important. .

amazingly i have both.

I'm sure serial killers feel the same way. That's not to compare you to a serial killer, but the point is, unless there's a universal standard to give these things validity, they're meaningless words.

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing.

There's a vast difference between believing in nothing and admitting a lack of infinite knowledge. "I don't know, let's find out" is far more useful than "I don't know, let's assume and leave it at that."

There's also a huge difference between believing in a higher power and saying I wish to live my life in ignorance.

[Nemo]

It's because so many people have an incessant urge to tell other people how they should live and to dictate arbitrary one size fits all rules instead of just letting people live their own way.

Wouldn't it be awesome if we lived in a vacuum?

[Blade]

I would bet you dollars to donuts that nearly all the agnostics who were formerly Christian came out of Catholic schools. I know this because I have several friends who are embittered by how they feel they were treated in those societies.

See, for me, it's not so much about Religion as an act, going through the motions, it's about what you really want to know is out there. What you think is out there. Not how you feel about a certain religion or how people say you should act. Most people I know say they hate religion because of all the things people in said religions expect them to say or do or act.

A true belief is something you carry for yourself. A way you live your own life...not how somebody else does.

I believe in a God, but not from the standpoint that someone from a Catholic or Lutheran or even Baptist could directly classify me into. To me, God is an extension or evolved form of humanity, something we have the potential to become. Whether he had a son who died for my sins is certainly up for speculation, as for the concept of heaven and hell...I believe I will go to the place I believe I will go, simple as that.

If I go to hell because I believe I'll go there, that's what I believe. If I got to heaven because I believe I'll go there, that's what I believe. If I got to Planet Gradius when I die, just cuz I believe it, it'll be so.

That's what I believe anyway...the idea of someone's faith in something directing and propelling how their lives move. In that sense, I suppose, we are our own Gods, perpetuating our actions by what we believe and the decisions we make. Belief in things also affects your health and how you live your life.

I wish more people would take a scientific approach to what they believe in and analyse it in that way instead of simply trusting in the things they've been told, or even reacting to things they're exposed to in a negative way.

To me, the concept of hell is the belief that you're stuck in a rut and no matter how hard you try you cannot get out or cannot hope to get out. When you lose hope...when you lose faith...that's hell right there.

[neorichieb1971]

Religion is a personal thing to start with. To start a war over religion is akin to starting a war over which shoe is best, Reebok or Nike?

If you are born into religion, you should be able to opt out as an adult.


As long as you understand you ALWAYS have a choice not to believe in your faith and accept that others will never accept brand X like you do.. You'll be a better person for it.

Forcing you to believe in something and then being intimidated by others because of it is just not how life is supposed to be lived in the 21st century.

[sethsez]

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing.

i don't believe in nothing.

i believe that every one deserves respect
i believe that people should be responsible for their actions
i believe justice, freedom and privacy are necessary for a happy life
i believe in helping my fellow terrans
i believe that those we place our trust in have an obligation to respect that trust
i believe that every one is equal

First of all, what are the source of these beliefs (because I'm sure you didn't just wake up one day with them in your head)? Plus, all of those things are conditional rather than absolute, so their more like feelings or ideas.

Um... something doesn't need to be "absolute" in order to be a belief.

And they're good things to live by because without them, society would cease to exist and we'd all be miserable.

think every person is his/her own judge and master.

okay your going to have to explain how expecting people to have personal responsibility and integrity to be weakness, cause yeah i can't see it

Because if you only answer to yourself, your sense of responsibility and integrity is completely different than that of another person, therefore anyone can and will rationalize any behavior which leads to anarchy.

So you're only a good person out of fear of retribution? That's the mindset of a child.

I don't steal things from people because I have respect for their property, not because I fear what will happen if I do. I guess if you think everyone is an asshole with no possibility of seeing consequences or how society intertwines then you might be onto something, but I'd like to think most people are capable of at least basic empathy without the threat of divine retribution.

but at the same time, having standards and discipline is extremely important. .

amazingly i have both.

I'm sure serial killers feel the same way. That's not to compare you to a serial killer, but the point is, unless there's a universal standard to give these things validity, they're meaningless words.

There is a standard: society. This is also why morals change drastically as time goes on. However, murder is never good for anybody no matter what society you're in, so that's a pretty basic "never allowed."

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing.

There's a vast difference between believing in nothing and admitting a lack of infinite knowledge. "I don't know, let's find out" is far more useful than "I don't know, let's assume and leave it at that."

There's also a huge difference between believing in a higher power and saying I wish to live my life in ignorance.

Then accept that atheists do not "believe in nothing." Not believing in a deity is not the same as believing in nothing.

[it290]

To Nemo: to you that 'absolute' which defines morality is God, but to many people who are atheists or agnostics it is the greater or social good. This is a very old concept, going back almost as far as civilization itself, and of course an argument could be made stating that it goes back to our primal instincts and desire for survival - humans are social animals, after all. I'm not talking about 'Good' with a capital G, but something more basic than that. I would argue that this idea is the foundation of the majority of religious rules relating to morality. Aside from that, you have the religious rules which are just silly. I don't think anyone here who is religious can claim to follow the teachings of his/her religion to the letter.

Your position is a very old one as well, of course. It reminds me a lot of Kant, who followed the same line of reasoning to a great extent. Interestingly, there is an anecdote about how he considered the argument (specifically God as the 'anchor' of reason) to be a fairly weak one, but put it forward anyway so as not to break the heart of one of his servants.

[PaCrappa]

It's because so many people have an incessant urge to tell other people how they should live and to dictate arbitrary one size fits all rules instead of just letting people live their own way.

Wouldn't it be awesome if we lived in a vacuum?

Yeah man, about as awesome as running out of material three posts into a thread.

Pa

[BulletMagnet]

I can only speak from a Christian point of view here, as I know relatively little about Islam and other such religions, but I tend to think that in many cases, religion wouldn't cause so many problems if people would actually follow it (IIRC, Gandhi, a Hindu, once claimed that if people would actually follow the techings of Jesus's Sermon on the Mount, by itself, the world would be a much better place). For example:

But so often religion is the source of such intolerance, and even violence. Who cares if someone else doesn't have the same views as you?

"Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men." -Romans 12:17-18

Anyone with a Bible can look it up, but apparently few have done so, and even if they have, many ignore it. Being "tolerant" doesn't mean that you have to approve of absolutely everything that anyone does, or that you have to completely shut yourself up about your own beliefs, but it does mean realizing that you can't, and shouldn't try to, make others' decisions for them. Again, I know little about Islam, but I have heard of at least a few clerics trying to calm their fellow Muslims down about the cartoon furor by saying, in effect, "What would Muhammad have done in response to this? Would he have started ransacking and killing? How do you think this kind of action reflects upon his name?" If only more outstanding voices in all religions would say the same sort of thing...unfortunately, many of them have gotten mixed up in politics (which, incidentally, is spoken against in the Bible as well), and that pretty much automatically means compromising (if not outright abandoning) "spiritual" principles in favor of dealings which have nothing to do with the betterment of mankind as a whole.

I might have quoted this elsewhere on these forums someplace, I think Kofi Annan might have said it..."There is no need to rewrite the Bible. What needs to change is not the text, but the behavior of its disciples." I'd imagine the same might be said of many faiths, to some extent at least.

[Bingo]

Actually Nemo, conditional beliefs coupled with high moral standards like "everyone deserves respect" and discipline is probably the most inclusive way of life out there, not one that promotes separation and vacuumed isolation based on absolute thruths. Precisely because you can't just say "fuck 'em they're just XYZ". Because there is no absolute to help justify your actions. There is only the fact that the guy whose face you want to mash in has the same right you have to believe none of what you believe (after all, if it's religious strife, you believe none of what he/she believes, so who's right?). In a conditional system the seemingly egoistic statements invariably have an altruistic spin to them as you have to accept everyone else living their version of a perfect life, too. Do you think my moral obligations, my responsibilites as a human being toward the person standing next to me, are any less when I respect them as a human being instead of a fellow believer? My respect doesn't stop where my belief draws the line...

This just as in illustration of how resonsibility and moral values figure into the conditional system. Not a knock on any religion. I practice what I preach, to use the religious image, and I don't give a fuck what anyone subscribes to. The reason I reply is to say that a conditional system includes responsibility and values to a high degree, and to express my concern about absolute truths that are in absolute beliefs: the one thing that's potentially disruptive to any form of human coexistence is the belief that your belief applies to someone else. Or everyone else. Absolute truths are for political chessboards without human participation.

[Michaelm]

Imagine you're standing in a room (life) and there's a rope in the middle of the room (religion), then all of a sudden the floor drops out from under your feet. That rope is all you have to cling to in this nonsensical world. When you put it in that perspective, religion is a necessity for people.

There should be a rule to not use hands

[Neon]

It'd be interesting to see a study of just how religious people are these days. My folks attend church once a week, but it seems like they're just going through the motions, really.

People's intolerance can work to your benefit, though...if you ever get drafted and the war is unjust, just tell them you're gay

[D]

Well real religious people get mad quick when their religion is questioned.
Why?
Because religion is such an ungrabbable (ungraspable) thing, they get annoyed. They can't prove it and that's what makes it so frustrating for them. They are like: "No, god does exist.....". They can't prove it.

Also religious people have alot of pride as well in their religion. This is what's going on at the moment in the Netherlands. The Dutch, me included have no pride at all, no religion. And for us it's hard to respect others who STILL have alot of pride to be religious.
It's hard.
I hope religion will be outlawed soon.
In that way no crimes can be orchestrated as "the will of god".

[cigsthecat]

I have much more respect for someone who believes in something (regardless of their religion or spirituality) than someone who believes in nothing. It's ironic that spiritual/religous people are often looked at as weak as they are seen as using their beliefs as a crutch, yet the truly weak people are the ones that can believe in something that isn't right in front of their face and think every person is his/her own judge and master. Yet, faiths that do promote persecution and kinds of discrimination are flawed and unrighteous, but at the same time, having standards and discipline is extremely important. This is the great balance between trying to improve things that are wrong and destructive while not being equally or more destructive towards the people doing the wrong.

Atheists don't believe in nothing. They believe in evolution, dinosaurs and science. Not blind faith, facts.

How do you have more respect for someone who believes in fairy tales and magic than someone who is a rational intelligent person? Your logic is absurd.

Also, the argument that non religious people are free to murder and rape as they please simply because they have no book to guide them is ridiculous. I don't know about you but I don't need anyone to tell me that murder rape, stealing etc. is wrong. As to the serial killer comment, I hear about far more of them being guided by "the hand of god" than anything else.