How good are the developers at their own games?

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:02 pm

Brought to mind from cig's post on another topic.

Any information from interviews and the like on how well they play the games they make? I've always wondered whether the developers, directors, producers, composers, and artists can 1CC the shooters they've worked on, esp. tougher games like R-Type and Radiant Silvergun.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:03 pm

Zero Gunner II replays, I believe, are apparently done by the development staff. Could be mistaken, but I think Border Down's are as well.

In the Dangun Feveron Q&A, one developer said he was able to 1CC it on the 5-ship setting.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:52 pm

Some of the Ikaruga replays were done by Treasure devs. One replay in stage two where all the zooming white fighter ships are chained proper is amazing and again, was done by a Treasure staffer.

Kind of OT but at E3 2002 I had the pleasure of watching one of KCEJ's reps try to get 100% on Contra SS's snow-worm stage and he just missed it. The Konami america rep laughed and teased him for losing. ha. I wish I had gotten his name because I am not sure if he was an actual dev.

Also, ever try racing any of the Staff ghost data in Mario Kart DS? Brutal, those guys are amazing racers. I was able to beat the Waluigi staff ghost using Dry bones/tank. The only other one I have unlocked was the staff Toad ghost on Shroom Mountain and needlessto say my staff ghost racing days are over.

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:01 am

According to an interview on Midway Arcade Treasures, the leader of the Smash TV development team can clear the game on one credit. That sounds like bullshit to me though.

zlk · Post by **zlk** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:34 am

The arcade version of SmashTV is so random that the guy would have to know lots of tricks and exploits to finish the game on one credit. The randomness of the powerups/extra man icons is why the game is annoying. In BBH's replay where he beats the TG record, he gets so many extra man icons that he has 9 men in reserve, then is awarded another extra man, and the counter stays at 9. In other games, no extra man icons appear all game. During some levels you will get good weapons and clear them in one game, in the next game the same room will give no extra weapons making it nearly impossible. The game is random and that is what makes it frustrating.

I would pay a lot of money to see a replay/video of the game being finished on one credit. I do not think it is possible.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:48 am

Another knock on Smash TV is its rank system. The rank is based on the All Time high score list. If there are some really high scores on a given Smash TV machine, look out.

BBH · Post by **BBH** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:26 am

gameoverDude wrote:Another knock on Smash TV is its rank system. The rank is based on the All Time high score list. If there are some really high scores on a given Smash TV machine, look out.

where did you hear this?

like zlk said though, there's an extreme amount of randomness in place in the game, and whenever I was doing MAME recordings for it it would of course be starting out with a fresh high score list. And yet still some games you'd get a shitload of extra lives, other games they wouldn't toss any your way. I haven't actually tried playing it with high scores already up on the All Time list, but I can't imagine it being much tougher than it is on a fresh factory default machine.

Total Carnage is a similar case, a while back I sorta figured out what I believe to be one way to control rank in that game, but I still couldn't quite finish it on one credit (was a few screens away from the last boss). There's just so many situations where you need heavy weaponry to survive the swarms of enemies, and sometimes you just can't get the weapons. Plus there's the fact that after you've survived for a while on one credit, you lose the second of invincibility after you place a bomb. There's no way around that.

I imagine that if there's anyone that could finish Smash TV or Total Carnage on one credit it'd be the developers, but being the developers they have more inside knowledge of how the games work. The games still feel completely random to me at times, but if there's some secret way of controlling the items/extra lives you can get, it'd obviously be a lot more manageable. So yeah, I'd obviously love to see one of them do it if it really is possible. They really should take up zlk's offer.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:23 am

I've often wondered how many easter eggs or cheats started out as backdoors so that the developers can amaze people with their skills.

Ideally the subtler the better, so that no one else figures it out.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:14 am

If I ever design a shmup...I want a few ace shmuppers to beta-test it and help me develop it.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:19 am

Me and one other person finished Smash TV with 3 credits between us. and this was on the evil early roms too.

the rev 8 romst is a bit more reasonable with respect to one credit clearing alone, provided the difficulty isn't jacked to an impossible setting.

Still Scar face really really sucks....

When playing alone you really do have to grab nearly every single powerup. With a two player game, you have double the firepower, and thus a lot more room for slack. The volume of enemies isn'r increased for two player, you see. so it REALLY helps.

The orbs and scar face are the major sources of death in two player. The orbs are a BITCH but fair. Scar Face is unfair. if you get lucky with the powerups you will beat him easily. if not you will lose many many lives...

i've seen someone come close to one credit clearing total carnage alone. i know it's doable.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:35 am

For smash tv, If you have a second player who is good too, and the two of you are good at dealing with orbs without killing each other, and get lucky with scarface, a one credit clear is not out of the question. In my almost 1cc, i think he was te one getting the extra lives, and i got hosed by scar face. once that was over with, we were golden.

And i'm pretty sure the person who nearly bea TC while i watched never lost his bomb invincibility. i think you lose that by trying to hoard bombs. They are there to be used in this game, and using them for the invincibility is part of the strategy.

zlk · Post by **zlk** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:35 am

zaphod wrote: i've seen someone come close to one credit clearing total carnage alone. i know it's doable.

I think the last boss is the really hard part of Total Carnage. Getting to the true last boss isn't easy either. If anyone thinks they can finish smashtv or total carnage on one credit, I have been running a contest over at MARP on both games. Check the forums over there for details.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:35 am

Going a little bit back to the topic.

An UK Amiga Magazine called "The One" once made a Sensible Soccer tournament. The idea was that the readers should guess who was going to win the tournament for a compo. There were 10 people playing: the 4 editors of the magazine, Dominik Diamond (The host of a TV Gaming show on UK), 3 developers of Sensible Soccer (Jon Hare, Chris Chapman and Jools) and 2 guys from Renegade, the guys who PUBLISHED Sensible Soccer.

And interesting enough, the winner of the tournament was one of the magazine editors (Simon Byron was his name). If I remember correctly, Dominik Diamond was in 2nd place, and Jon Hare, the game developer, was only in 3rd place.

I always found that to be amusing...

MJR · Post by **MJR** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:36 pm

High-quality replays that are done by 'staff' means usually testers, as actual developers, believe or not, usually suck in most of their games as they don't have time to play them that much from beginning to end - that work always gets attributed to the testers. I suck in most of the games I've been working on.

As for classic c64/amiga shmups go, I know that stavros was never able to play sanxion or delta very well, but he was pretty good at galactic.

Scy (lead coder of stardust) wasn't very good at his own games, but Petteri (who was his tester) was able to one life them all the way through - because playing them was all he did.

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:27 pm

BBH wrote:
gameoverDude wrote:Another knock on Smash TV is its rank system. The rank is based on the All Time high score list. If there are some really high scores on a given Smash TV machine, look out.
where did you hear this?

Yeah. I'm curious to know too, does anyone have a source that can give some more definite details on this?

genetik · Post by **genetik** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:54 pm

I've been working at game company for the last two years and from i saw, the dev aren't very good players, even at their own games.

Obviously I'm not working at a company that develops shmups, but still. From what i saw, a good portion of devs did not even play games on a regular basis. They know the map/level they are working on, and know how to complete it, but since they don't play it all day, they're not able to do it very fast.

Although, i can imagine that smaller company that doesn't have a quality control/beta-testing team, will be force to play-test their own game, thus making them better at it.

Most devs that are working at a big company will never have enough time to play through his work to really get good at it.

From what i saw, the best players are usually found in the lower end jobs, beta-testing.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:26 pm

Scy (lead coder of stardust) wasn't very good at his own games, but Petteri (who was his tester) was able to one life them all the way through - because playing them was all he did.

Heh... so that's why Stardust was so brutal. I can't remember the highest rank I've achieved, but it's never been anything complimentary.

Obviously I'm not working at a company that develops shmups, but still. From what i saw, a good portion of devs did not even play games on a regular basis. They know the map/level they are working on, and know how to complete it, but since they don't play it all day, they're not able to do it very fast.

True, but shmups, especially back in the old days, were developed by much smaller teams than most games nowadays, in many cases just a 1-man team. I've read Eugene Jarvis saying that he's not super-awesome at his own games (ie, he can't play Defender indefinitely), but that his skills are fairly decent.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:47 pm

You guys are comparing average dev companies to say someone like Cave, who is a micro company, and made up of at least one person that grew up playing shooters in arcades (and is a pretty good player, reportedly). I don't know if Ikeda plays his own games now, but I recall him mentioning clearing a loop or two of some of the older Toaplan games.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:48 pm

Yasunari Watanabe (WAT) is the guy behindone the two built-in Garegga replays. By odd coincidence, he was also the producer on the game.

I wonder, on the other hand, if there is some kind of unwritten taboo for programmers to join score competitions...

zlk · Post by **zlk** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:38 pm

In a company like Cave, there probably is some unwritten rule for employees not to participate in high score competitions. Remember the huge controversy regarding the arika ketsui dvd?

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:46 am

zlk wrote:The arcade version of SmashTV is so random that the guy would have to know lots of tricks and exploits to finish the game on one credit. The randomness of the powerups/extra man icons is why the game is annoying. In BBH's replay where he beats the TG record, he gets so many extra man icons that he has 9 men in reserve, then is awarded another extra man, and the counter stays at 9. In other games, no extra man icons appear all game. During some levels you will get good weapons and clear them in one game, in the next game the same room will give no extra weapons making it nearly impossible. The game is random and that is what makes it frustrating.

I would pay a lot of money to see a replay/video of the game being finished on one credit. I do not think it is possible.

I don't believe Smash TV has ever been finished on a single credit. I know others have said they heard a developer say that he did it - but I just do not believe it.

Like everyone else has said - it's full of ridiculous amounts of randomness.

BBH · Post by **BBH** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:13 am

zaphod wrote:And i'm pretty sure the person who nearly bea TC while i watched never lost his bomb invincibility. i think you lose that by trying to hoard bombs. They are there to be used in this game, and using them for the invincibility is part of the strategy.

now see, I'm pretty sure I tested this out. I tried not to go over the maximum of 9 bombs since the game gives that message "Do not hoard bombs". So I kept using them but I'd still lose the bomb invincibility before I reached Orcus, so I assumed that it's something that would happen regardless of how you played. I could be wrong on this as I didn't test it extensively, but if there is indeed a way to keep the bomb invincibility throughout the entire game, it would make it a lot more manageable.

Lone Deranger · Post by **Lone Deranger** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:42 am

zlk wrote:In a company like Cave, there probably is some unwritten rule for employees not to participate in high score competitions. Remember the huge controversy regarding the arika ketsui dvd?

I've seen make mention of this Arika/Ketsui controversy about a dozen times now since joining this board. However I still haven't been able to puzzle out what exactly it was all about. Could some kind person clear this up for me please?

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:28 am

landshark wrote: I don't believe Smash TV has ever been finished on a single credit. I know others have said they heard a developer say that he did it - but I just do not believe it.

Like everyone else has said - it's full of ridiculous amounts of randomness.

does anyone know the differences between the different smash TV versions?
score wise, difficulty etc...

snes, md, NES all the platforms got their own release.

ive come about 2 rooms away from 1CCing the SNES version (fantastic game) and ive always wondered how it compares to the original.

japtor · Post by **japtor** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:48 am

Lone Deranger wrote:I've seen make mention of this Arika/Ketsui controversy about a dozen times now since joining this board. However I still haven't been able to puzzle out what exactly it was all about. Could some kind person clear this up for me please?

arika was gonna make a ketsui superplay or whatever dvd, and apparently cave gave them a ketsui pcb tweaked particularly for practicing. iirc, the player couldnt get killed, so basically he could consistently get a full run in, including getting to doom (true final boss). not sure if it had level select or any other fun features, but basically it was just for this one player to practice on.

because he was the only one to have access to this board, he wasnt supposed to enter any ketsui score competitions...but he did. so then cave was all like 'CAVE ANGRY! CAVE SMASH!'*, then arika was like 'oh no me so solly, we are shame'. supposedly cave asked arika to do a port, but they were so ashamed about the whole incident that they turned it down. or something. mihara (arika guy) said something about if they were going to do a ketsui port, itd be on ps3. something bizarro like that, i dont remember if it was ever elaborated on (such as...why).

and now you have taito or cave making ports that make resolution nerds angry. and no ketsui, which is one of the awesomest games ever created. yall are missin out big time.

* may be a slight exaggeration. i dont even know how cave reacted at first.

BBH · Post by **BBH** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 am

sven666 wrote:
landshark wrote: I don't believe Smash TV has ever been finished on a single credit. I know others have said they heard a developer say that he did it - but I just do not believe it.

Like everyone else has said - it's full of ridiculous amounts of randomness.
does anyone know the differences between the different smash TV versions?
score wise, difficulty etc...

snes, md, NES all the platforms got their own release.

ive come about 2 rooms away from 1CCing the SNES version (fantastic game) and ive always wondered how it compares to the original.

SNES version is like a million times easier than arcade, mainly because the character's walking speed is a lot faster than the arcade. It's an excellent port since it's not as frustrating as the arcade game.

Don't know about the other ports.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:12 am

japtor wrote:
Lone Deranger wrote:I've seen make mention of this Arika/Ketsui controversy about a dozen times now since joining this board. However I still haven't been able to puzzle out what exactly it was all about. Could some kind person clear this up for me please?
arika was gonna make a ketsui superplay or whatever dvd, and apparently cave gave them a ketsui pcb tweaked particularly for practicing. iirc, the player couldnt get killed, so basically he could consistently get a full run in, including getting to doom (true final boss). not sure if it had level select or any other fun features, but basically it was just for this one player to practice on.

because he was the only one to have access to this board, he wasnt supposed to enter any ketsui score competitions...but he did. so then cave was all like 'CAVE ANGRY! CAVE SMASH!'*, then arika was like 'oh no me so solly, we are shame'. supposedly cave asked arika to do a port, but they were so ashamed about the whole incident that they turned it down. or something. mihara (arika guy) said something about if they were going to do a ketsui port, itd be on ps3. something bizarro like that, i dont remember if it was ever elaborated on (such as...why).

and now you have taito or cave making ports that make resolution nerds angry. and no ketsui, which is one of the awesomest games ever created. yall are missin out big time.

* may be a slight exaggeration. i dont even know how cave reacted at first.

The port and the DVD were seperate things entirely. The impression I got was Cave was displeased with how things happened, but Mihara was even more embarassed it happened and seemed overly distraught that Cave would never deal with him again. I think at most Cave said they couldn't release the DVD; but I'm not so sure that's how it went down, Mihara could have scrapped it due to the controversy. They later asked him to port Mushi to the PS2, but he turned it down due to the immense amount of work it would involve. There was no (public) disclosure that they refused to let him do a port of Ketsui; only Mihara's public musing that he'd love to do a Ketsui port, but he didn't feel he could do it justice on the PS2. It was more of a public grumbling that Sony was being stingy with PS3 devkits than anything else.

I really think Cave recognized the quality of the DOJ and ESPGaluda ports, or at least recognized fans were fairly pleased with the ports. I just don't think they are able or willing to put that same effort into the ports when they do them. I do also seem to recall that Mihara said part of why the initial work on the DOJ port was so hard was that he didn't get much in the way of assistance from Cave..but that could be my fuzzy memory.

Lone Deranger · Post by **Lone Deranger** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:23 am

Thanks for that entertaining explanation japtor amd zakk.

So that's what all the hubbub was all about...

Kind of strange that Arika ended up being so embarrased about this. It's the player that should be ashamed. Also it was Cave that handed out the PCB in the first place by the sound of it.
No doubt there's more to it than all the parties involved are willing to share with the public.
I wonder if this taylor-made/tweaked PCB scenario is more common than this one occurence.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:41 am

Lone Deranger wrote:Thanks for that entertaining explanation japtor amd zakk. So that's what all the hubbub was all about...

Kind of strange that Arika ended up being so embarrased about this. It's the player that should be ashamed. Also it was Cave that handed out the PCB in the first place by the sound of it.
No doubt there's more to it than all the parties involved are willing to share with the public.
I wonder if this taylor-made/tweaked PCB scenario is more common than this one occurence.

Reading between the lines, Arika was embarassed partly as the sort of japanese cultural type thing, and partly because I think Mihara probably considered it a failing on his part. Either because he didn't choose a person who would follow the rules, or because he didn't properly inform the person of said rules. Ultimately Cave handed the 'practice' board to _Akira_ with stipulations. While final responsibility is the player's, from a business<->business perspective, the responsibility is on Arika.

Lone Deranger · Post by **Lone Deranger** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:01 am

zakk: Yes... I guess that makes good sense. I did wonder wether or not the famous japanese culture thing (for lack of a better description) had a part in this.

..sigh.... the search/wait for a good Ketsui PCB kit continues....