Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[kitten]

In other news - holy shit, with just one more enemy onscreen at a time, Mighty Final Fight would have me insta-hooked.

they're using two separate palettes on most enemies, implying they're multiple sprites each, which is deffo why it can't handle many. everything looks really, really pretty, at least. there is some very seriously crazy good usage of color in that game D: very smart balancing around what palettes to use for foreground/background, too. i need to get a copy of this. capcom had a very good grasp on this kind of stuff: all feels like it started with rockman. i like that so many of the best famicom games don't even make you consciously aware of the palettes limitations. nothing beats out kirby's adventure in that front, though.

speaking of good palette usage, anyone here ever play robocco wars? this somewhat clearly unfinished half action-platformer, half-shmup? it's kinda known for how it has entire levels left in its coding that didn't get used in the final game. it's more than a tiny bit rough around the edges, but it's a bit of a favorite of mine for its cutesy robot graphics and some gorgeous backgrounds. it's very inconsistent about which look good and which don't, but the few that do look excellent (they HAD to have had multiple background artists with some of the disparity) really do stick out. recommend playing this one on hardware, if possible, there's a decent bit of dithering that just won't look as good when not on a CRT. imo the second level's second half has some outright masterful usage of green to make different little islands in the second level seem closer or further away in the background. the first half has some really strikingly good-looking castles up in the clouds, too - the dithering on the castles looks EXCELLENT on crt and the usage of white, blues, and black in the clouds looks really nice, as well.

first and third levels are nothing to look at, though emphasis on this one's visual excellence being deeply inconsistent. its play quality is a little inconsistent, too, and it has a really bad transition into a stupid maze for its last stage. i rate it at three out of four stars - it doesn't really deserve it, but it cast this serious charm on me. real pleasant tunes, too. stage 6 is real pretty and has great music, too. check out that cool galaxy swirl in the background, the transition to the cityscape. keep watching for just a few seconds and check out that extremely delightful, HUGE sun! i love its expression ;_;

I'm definitely interested in seeing your runs! would love to see your playstyle

my friend who is supposed to be getting it for me is going a little slow, but i should be getting one sometime soon-ish, probably. i hate to leave the suspense of when a mystery, but it's a gift, and you don't look a gift horse in the mouth :p

Good god... never, EVER do this in NG you're basically asking for (snip)

please use some different phrasing

Had one more game of Gremlins 2 yesterday (I'm going real slow with this one, as playing it is strangely exhausting to me), and I'm not sure if I want to take it any further. Starting out as an easy game crippled by an annoying attack, by stage 4 it's changed into a difficult game with an awesome attack. Unfortunately, I feel it's difficult for the wrong reasons. Some of the jumps on this stage are just extremely awkward, and by 4-2 the ground is basically covered by conveyor belts, which might be one of my least favourite video game elements ever, I'm just not having fun with it at this point.

:O i like conveyor belts and weird mechanical hazards a lot. one of my favorite parts of gremlins 2 is how immediately you can get repeat jumps out to get past hazards - it's seriously wild about it. i had a somewhat opposite reaction to gremlins 2 that you did - i started with a negative impression (i still strongly dislike how restrictive your early attack is) and ended up really loving it as it kept going. i think i had a no miss clear down on this game within an hour to an hour of half of starting it. died a bunch on my first playthrough and i want to say that it was my 2nd (although it may have been my third) attempt i managed to blaze it on one life. like a decent number of sunsoft games, it's one of those games i usually play twice when i sit down with it, because the first play is always spent making stupid mistakes and the second is where everything gets back to clicking.

if you're having trouble with specific platforming moments, you might want balloons instead of lives from the shop. they can get you through some trickier bits without pain - if only you could selectively activate these.

And is there any trick for those green gremlins that spin around throwing hats(?) all over the place. Like every other enemy, their pattern is completely random, and the projectiles are super fast in every direction making it impossible for me to dodge.

I find this game is actually a good example of the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to randomness in games, compared to the example we briefly touched on from Daimakaimura, and Squire's explanation of good random bullets vs. bad random bullets. Every enemy spawn is completely static, but their movement is absurdly erratic, with several enemies just changing to a random direction every few frames, and a huge part of fighting them comes down to either luck or patience.

a decent number of enemies in this game aren't even worth fighting and very easy to mitigate if you keep your distance. the hat tossing guy takes a really long pause right after he does his weird whirlwind thing and if i'm not positioned to run up and blast him enough to kill him i just run past him. same goes for several enemies in this game, honestly. i like how many gremlins are acting up all over the place - captures the movie's atmosphere a bit. just skip stuff you don't want to fight, the game's pacing definitely accommodates it. i feel like how cheap everything in the shops are REALLY suggests that it's intentional not all enemies are meant to be fought. if you're having trouble, i suggest looking up shop locations - having just one extra balloon or getting an upgraded weapon and 4 hearts early on can make a huge difference as the game goes on.

I guess my immediate positive reaction to this game isn't as positive anymore. But I think I'll give it one more chance. I just found out you get to keep your weapon upgrade if you buy those 1up dolls, so there's a bit of leeway there I guess.

make sure you notice that there are hearts AND a separate healing item in the shops. your first heart will increase your life gauge to 4, which is really crucial, but i think later ones do the same thing as the healing item (it's like a health pack or something? i forget). you lose this if you ever use a 1up doll, which imo very strongly suggests (along with many other things) that this game was intended to be no miss'd. also, again, don't underestimate how useful the balloon is.

[Sumez]

they're using two separate palettes on most enemies, implying they're multiple sprites each, which is deffo why it can't handle many.

You'd be surprised how many NES sprites are really "multiple sprites". NES hardware sprites are either 8x8 or 8x16 pixels, so even something as small as Kirby's smallest animation frames takes up at least 3 or 6 sprites depending on what sprite mode the game uses. Anything using "big sprites", like Akumajou Densetsu, Mighty Final Fight or even Gremlins 2, is prone to use up the 64 sprite limit very quickly. Keep in mind though, that since you're gonna have flickering sprites anyway, there are many ways to get around that limit - see Recca for an obvious example.

Though I'm thinking the limit you see in Mighty Final Fight is actually mostly due to the coding and AI on the enemies, and having one more on screen could potentially slow the game down too much due to the CPU use. But no doubt adding more sprite graphics would cause a ton of flickering, too, especially in a game where you'd most often be lined up with the other characters most of the time. The game already has bad enough flickering as it is (I actually think it looks worse than it needs to be). Only few NES games have a sprite flickering algorithm that work as well as Dynamite Batman.
(for anyone who doesn't know, any flickering you see in NES games is hard coded, it's never hardware induced. The hardware just makes sprites invisible)

[kitten]

You'd be surprised how many NES sprites are really "multiple sprites". NES hardware sprites are either 8x8 or 8x16 pixels, so even something as small as Kirby's smallest animation frames takes up at least 3 or 6 sprites depending on what sprite mode the game uses. Anything using "big sprites", like Akumajou Densetsu, Mighty Final Fight or even Gremlins 2, is prone to use up the 64 sprite limit very quickly. Keep in mind though, that since you're gonna have flickering sprites anyway, there are many ways to get around that limit - see Recca for an obvious example.

Though I'm thinking the limit you see in Mighty Final Fight is actually mostly due to the coding and AI on the enemies, and having one more on screen could potentially slow the game down too much due to the CPU use. But no doubt adding more sprite graphics would cause a ton of flickering, too, especially in a game where you'd most often be lined up with the other characters most of the time. The game already has bad enough flickering as it is (I actually think it looks worse than it needs to be). Only few NES games have a sprite flickering algorithm that work as well as Dynamite Batman.
(for anyone who doesn't know, any flickering you see in NES games is hard coded, it's never hardware induced. The hardware just makes sprites invisible)

much appreciation on the technical post. i usually see intentional flickering described as "multiplexing," which is when it's coded which sprites will flicker at certain priorities, i believe? konami seemed pretty much like masters of this in a lot of their titles and got a handle on it way faster than other devs.

[Sumez]

There are a few ways to handle it, but there's surprisingly limited resources on what algorithms people use, save from a single thread on nesdev.com.

As far as I can tell, the most CPU effecient way to do it is simply by drawing the sprites back-to-front on one frame, and front-to-back on the next. It's super easy to implement, and I'm pretty sure that's how most NES games do it, but it has some pretty obvious disadvantages, most obviously that more than 16 sprites on a line will still result in entirely invisible sprites, as well as certain objects flashing more than others.

In my game, my original idea was to simply store where I start drawing sprites and increase that by one (or four, since each sprite object is four bytes) for each frame, and just loop over to 0 when necessary. I thought that sounded nice on paper, but the problem with this method is that you will still be drawing the sprites in the same order, causing several sprites to go invisible for multiple frames in a row, which is pretty much the worst thing you can do.

I would really love to know how Dynamite Batman does it. According to some dev interviews, the "large sprites" were possible thanks to hardware on the cartridges, but I think that must be a misunderstanding - I don't see how SunSoft's FME-7 chip can possibly help with sprite cycling algorithms.

[kitten]

i'll ask my pal sharc if he has any idea, sumez! he's usually got good information for stuff like that.

- - - - -

hnngggghhhh, god damn it, the ninja warriors again is so, so, so, so good. i love this game, i absolutely love it. i am seriously not much of a fan for most brawlers/beat 'em ups, but this is something that jives with my taste on an almost innate level. i cannot get over how good i feel about this and how much a play session with it dredges up that kind of heart-lit-on-fire, extremely literal teary-eyed joy that metal slug 3 used to bring me back when i was younger. i'm 100% agog that this is not talked up more than it and not considered one of the absolute most premiere titles on the super famicom. the degree to which this is cleverly designed over other beat 'em ups i've played is seriously genius - from the lengths of the i-frames to the periods during which enemies are vulnerable to grabs and how they telegraph their attacks. everything in this game feels decidedly calculated despite its constant eruptions into superficially chaotic fervor.

i was playing on hard and had to continue on both levels 2 and 3 like a total scrub but then!! but then, i went through the entire rest of the game (with ninja, of course, who is rapidly becoming one of my favorite game characters of all time) without a continue ah, man, i got such a thrill of this. that final boss theme seriously gets my head bopping in quick rhythm and brings my intensity alive this is one of those games i love so much i really and seriously can't - or shouldn't - play it often. i get way too worked up and into it and emotional. it's one of those games i genuinely tear up and cry a little bit over after a great session, that well and truly reminds me of the abundance of love and care these old japanese devs used to bring to the table with their efforts. i'd love to clear hard on a single credit on this and i know i've got the capacity, but this is like back before i'd ever no miss'd a single game - that sweaty palmed, heart-pounding excitement where you get bouts you just can't play straight. this session, after a week filled with a bunch of natsume love, just felt perfect.

agh, god, i'm sorry. i get really sappy over shit like this, but i'm being completely sincere in how emotionally worked up a truly excellent game can sometimes get me my roommate always says it's remarkable to see me this happy. this might even be top 25 material.

BIL, i could seriously hug you over recommending this.

i REALLY don't understand why this is not more regarded as a classic, though, seriously. a lot of the reception for it i see is pretty lukewarm and the hg101 article is written by terminal games tourist, kurt kalata, to which he tepidly describes it as "fun," but "not as good as (who gives a fuck)".

i prefer this very excitable gamefaqs poster's review, and have to agree that "this game ROX SO FREEEE-KING MUCH, MAN"

[Sumez]

't understand why this is not more regarded as a classic, though

I was always under the impression that it is.

Does anyone have experience with Konami's "Monster in my Pocket" for NES? It's one of those licensed titles that they never bothered giving a Famicom release, which doesn't bode well, but I've seen some love for it here and there, and it's been on my radar for a while. Music is definitely neat.
Konami did make a lot of excellent NES games that rarely gets mentioned (Tiny Toon Adventures), but I figured there's a good chance this one is more of a Bayou Billy....
It's not an expensive game, but it's also not cheap enough for me to just purchase blindly.

[BIL]

Lots of good posts, just popping in before dashing off but will return later!

I think TNWA's relatively muted acclaim might come down to a combination of genre and classic "Contra is impossible!" superficiality. TNWA is a quantum leap beyond Spartan X, but the gains are in its details - the brawler-inspired fighting mechanics, the ultra-smooth use of iframes, the simmering RNG pressure of its crowd mixups and so on. That's the stuff enthusiast audiences like us will champion. I could see more casual observers, or those happy to "walk n' punch," mistaking it for yet another Spartan X knockoff. Lord knows there's a lot of casual observers about.

BIL, i could seriously hug you over recommending this.

My pleasure.

[Vludi]

It's actually quite liked among fans of the genre nowadays, of course by people who play these games and not the ones who say Simpsons is the best beat 'em up ever.

[Sumez]

I quite like the Simpsons beat'em up

[Shoryukev]

I'm a fan of the x-men beat-em-up, but it's mainly due to being fascinated with the absolutely gigantic cabinet with it's odd dual screen setup (CRT and rear projection). It was pretty cool to play back in the day with all 6 players going at once.

[Blinge]

Latest from Scrubtown:

Yoo free character DLC for Shovel Knight
Playable Spectre Knight!

Looks like he has a limited wallrun/jump ability on some surfaces and can divekick/shoryu enemies he auto-locks when you're near.
:3

[BIL]

Shovel Knight is A-OK here - sometime in year 20XX on Earth A I'll get around to the PS4 copy I bought from doon te Tesco. ;3

speaking of good palette usage, anyone here ever play robocco wars? this somewhat clearly unfinished half action-platformer, half-shmup? it's kinda known for how it has entire levels left in its coding that didn't get used in the final game. it's more than a tiny bit rough around the edges, but it's a bit of a favorite of mine for its cutesy robot graphics and some gorgeous backgrounds.

Hadn't heard of this, pretty cool game! The knowingly offbeat tone reminds me a bit of Cocoron. Played three and a half stages, found it a little snoozy but characterful enough I didn't mind (recalls Yume Penguin Monogatari in that sense). Hella pricey now, unfortunately.

The manual-scroll stages being literally "on rails" is a simply wonderful conceit. ^__^ Incidentally I've always wondered about the possibility of an entire game built around Contra III's tank, with only marginally expanded mobility (maybe a weighty hydraulic hop with brutally stout vernier hover). Emphasis on i-frame ramming straight through things / exploiting your main cannon's monstrous kickback over conventional dodging. With a few minor additions (light secondary guns for zako swatting, limited heavy weapons ala Metal Slug), and the right Valken-esque "dodge/block 90% of stuff, armour will pick up the slack" aesthetic I think it could be a fun little thing. I also have an idea for a Gain Ground/Crackdown-style strategic topdown action game featuring a duel atop a skyscraper between two master killers: a blind guy armed with a bolt-action rifle VS a guy in a wheelchair with a katana and a landmine!

Picked up Mighty Final Fight and Yie Ar Kung Fu - dammit Skye, yer spendin all me money! (ala Road Fighter, I've had Yie Ar's arcade version on PS1 for ages now - but I adore Konami's early FC years!)

[__SKYe]

Bloody hell, managed to reach the last 3 bosses without losing any lives, and ended up losing against Jaquio. I almost never lose against him, but I was nervous as f***. Such a damn shame, I wanted at the very least to reach Jashin.

On the other hand, I did manage to reach 6-3 without losing lives 3 times in a row, so the 1LC seems to be closer and closer (I need to have a positive outlook on the situation, somehow ).

Picked up Mighty Final Fight and Yie Ar Kung Fu - dammit Skye, yer spendin all me money! (ala Road Fighter, I've had Yie Ar's arcade version on PS1 for ages now - but I adore Konami's early FC years!)

Haha, it is money well spent though.
Road Fighter for the Famicom is also a cool game. I still have to play Yie-Ar Kung-Fu for the arcade properly, but the FC game is very nice though.
Do play 'Level-B' on Yie-Ar as well, as the ability to face in both directions regardless of where your opponent is standing, is quite useful.

[FinalBaton]

Nice progress __SKYe

[EmperorIng]

Tonma is superb - I put it off for a long time assuming it was some fruity hop n' bop. Hell no, this is RUN AND GUN. Wizard style! I mean you technically can hop/bop, but after stunning the target you're gonna wanna BUST SHOT

Hell yeah, since they'll kill you if you don't zap'em after ya bop'em.

The only somewhat questionable moment in Tonma imo is the cave stage/level 4, where you need to use the hopping bishop/chinese vampires to get over some of the wall ledges. Hopping on them sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't - and you can be left high and dry if one of them does their attack jump, killing you instantly on contact.

It doesn't happen enough to warrant serious concern though. It might be my lack of good control at that point.

I did want to chime in (what a fast-moving topic) to say that mere days after credit-feeding, I joined that tuff-boys club by 1CC'ing Tonma.

Spoiler

I guess on the whole it might be seen as an easier Irem game (maybe on the PC Engine, with its lack of difficulty modes) but damn it if it isn't satisfying. And what a heart-felt ending. I hope I see you soon, Tommy!

[kitten]

Hadn't heard of this, pretty cool game! The knowingly offbeat tone reminds me a bit of Cocoron. Played three and a half stages, found it a little snoozy but characterful enough I didn't mind (recalls Yume Penguin Monogatari in that sense). Hella pricey now, unfortunately.

The manual-scroll stages being literally "on rails" is a simply wonderful conceit. ^__^ Incidentally I've always wondered about the possibility of an entire game built around Contra III's tank, with only marginally expanded mobility (maybe a weighty hydraulic hop with brutally stout vernier hover). Emphasis on i-frame ramming straight through things / exploiting your main cannon's monstrous kickback over conventional dodging. With a few minor additions (light secondary guns for zako swatting, limited heavy weapons ala Metal Slug), and the right Valken-esque "dodge/block 90% of stuff, armour will pick up the slack" aesthetic I think it could be a fun little thing. I also have an idea for a Gain Ground/Crackdown-style strategic topdown action game featuring a duel atop a skyscraper between two master killers: a blind guy armed with a bolt-action rifle VS a guy in a wheelchair with a katana and a landmine!

Picked up Mighty Final Fight and Yie Ar Kung Fu - dammit Skye, yer spendin all me money! (ala Road Fighter, I've had Yie Ar's arcade version on PS1 for ages now - but I adore Konami's early FC years!)

where are you looking to determine it's pricey? it typically sells for 2k-3k loose yen on yahoo auctions japan, which isn't really particularly bad, especially for a late-life game. i think i got mine for like 1500 or something. i snoozed on getting this when it was frequently getting sub 1k listings, but didn't have to bite too big a bullet in response. i'm still forever angry i skipped on a complete, excellent condition eliminate down for $300 and bought mother fucking MAGIC THE GATHERING CARDS instead. i wish i could slap the shit out of 6-7 years younger me. even having tried emulating it and not liking it (well, the first level was cool, but after that...), i could have flipped it for triple that easy peasy, today. i try not to think of what prices have inflated for most things and to stop biting myself for getting serious about collecting late, but i stared that one in the face and said "naw, i need mtg cards." wait, maybe i bought the commander decks with that money and i sold those for way more than i paid a few years later, making it six and one half dozen on the other. whatever. frustration about prices, regret about playing card games, etc.

anyway, yeah, robocco wars is really cute and good little bit of fun, but my 3-star rating is pretty dang biased. it's pretty much all aesthetic making me feel that way. i would feel much more comfortable giving it that kind of generous rating if the last level weren't such outright trash, though. not only does it have a semi-directionless maze out of bleeding nowhere (the rest of the game has nothing at all like this), but the last boss is a seriously repetitive letdown. the previous stage you play with the mech has a really weird ice physics jump over a pit just before its boss to almost guarantee you're going to be going at the final level with all your power-ups lost, too. there's some sub-bosses in the stage that only move when you shoot and have some really weird patterns, i guess that's interesting. i think the story is all in the manual in this one, aside from the ending - no demo play switching into opening cutscene or anything.

oh shoot, i just realized you'd never played this, so there's a NEAT SURPRISE BOSS in one of the shooter stages you will recognize i won't spoil, though... hopefully no one else in the thread does, either.

[Blinge]

I'm impressed by how fast you lot jump+slash in NG. I can't imagine doing that on a NES controller, do you slide your thumb over the buttons to do it?
In my ravenous emulation feast I use a dualshock 2 and have my thumb laying across both X and square to hit both in SF 'piano' timing.
I assume that's also a common technique on here but my friends IRL don't do it.

Haven't had time for long sessions yet but made it to 6-2 in NG. The pain begins.

[kitten]

I'm impressed by how fast you lot jump+slash in NG. I can't imagine doing that on a NES controller, do you slide your thumb over the buttons to do it?
In my ravenous emulation feast I use a dualshock 2 and have my thumb laying across both X and square to hit both in SF 'piano' timing.
I assume that's also a common technique on here but my friends IRL don't do it.

are there human beings that play on a nes and do not place their thumb across both buttons in games like these? :O that is baffling for me to learn. this is basic behavior in a rockman game, where you need to fire multiple shots as you do a tall jump, which means holding down a but rapidly tapping b with the tip of your thumb. you have to do that REAL HARD to get competent at lickle, where damage dumping some of the flying bosses means doing that with kikira. my roommate is always baffled at how fast i'm able to hit the button while holding the other in those situations.

you should see me play rockman x. my thumb goes completely horizontal across y, b, and a, and i'm able to roll it across a and b separately or simultaneously to hold a charge shot while dash-jumping

Haven't had time for long sessions yet but made it to 6-2 in NG. The pain begins.

the worst part of 6-2 for a beginner is that one hallway that everyone always complains about. the best way to handle it is to stop dead in your tracks and wait for the dude in the white robe to walk himself off the edge of the screen, and then as you approach the jump to the platform he was on, get ready to hit an eagle out of the air. that ,or just bring whirlwind slash in and don't give a fuck. if you don't want to cheese the white robed guy, you want to get just close enough to edge of the ledge to not spawn the eagle, but to be able to hit the white-robed cross-chucker with a shuriken and not have him respawn. treat it the same way. barreling forward in this segment without whirlwind slash is almost certain death - certain hilarious, repeated death.

protip: if you press down+slash while you have whirlwind, you can still do a regular slash in mid-air to conserve ninpo. this is extreeeeeemely useful knowledge. if you press down+slash repeatedly in mid-air, you can actually hit a boss multiple times and this is useful especially for speed-killing the last boss.

[Blinge]

In my imagination that involves holding the NES pad at a weird angle or bending your right hand awkwardly..
I say imagination cause I've held a nes pad once in my life around 5 years ago >_<

Ah yeah, Ive been trying to do the whirlwind trick here and there, haven't got it down. Does it cancel the animation or something?
Is it the original air slash that you hold down for, or the second one or both?

[BIL]

The only somewhat questionable moment in Tonma imo is the cave stage/level 4, where you need to use the hopping bishop/chinese vampires to get over some of the wall ledges. Hopping on them sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't - and you can be left high and dry if one of them does their attack jump, killing you instantly on contact.

It doesn't happen enough to warrant serious concern though. It might be my lack of good control at that point.

AFAIK, arsebounce has 100% priority on any applicable enemy, for that critical BUNS OF STEEL FEEL.

Spoiler

The exceptions are tiny flying pests (function like bullets, eg non-stompable but will die on impact with a shield) and bosses (kill player on contact). Firing up Ootake for a quick check, I'd guess you're getting caught from the side like so:

Spoiler

I just cull 'em down to one, works great! Also lmao I love that enemy design. Check out their " O_O " if you blast 'em right back into their coffin upon spawning.

Replaying Tiny Toons (FC) incidentally, which is to SMB3 what DEADFOX is to Rolling Thunder. That is, brazen yet superb plagiarism! Am I right in thinking SMB3 originated the "hold jump while bopping for extra rebound height" mechanic? It certainly seemed to cast a long shadow over subsequent arse-on-face sidescroller violence, at any rate. Could have an entire sub-thread on the greatest examples.

I really like Tonma's use of it in stages 2, 4 and 6 - rather than getting into long, perilous firefights with the giant turret enemies, you can leverage them for massive vertical gains, rocketing up to the boss in seconds. It doesn't feel like any cheesy P-wing "skip" either - those fuckers will all too happily shoot a hesistant player out of the air!

Oh lawd I'm playing all sorts this weekend, doing a bit of test folder revisiting. Firing up another episode of 2ND OPINON soon, I think. For now: I thought I finally understood what in the sweet fuck Sunsoft were thinking with Dynamite Batman st3-1! I noticed that if you nail every single POW-carrying enemy in stages 1+2, you'll need just one more pickup to trigger it. Maybe you're supposed to skillfully build meter, then trigger OUGON NO BATTOMAN and mow through the shit blizzard! Sunsoft: "LOL NO LMAO" :[ Oh well. I gained an appreciation for Ninja Crusaders finally, at least. Jesus this is turning into a whole 2ND OPINON on its own isn't it? Sorry, it's late here.

edit: oh hey, lots of posts while I was giffin that gif! must catch up.

Is it the original air slash that you hold down for, or the second one or both?

Two slightly different things involving similar inputs.

i) Holding [down] and hitting [attack] in the air will let you execute a normal sword slash with the Jumpslash subweapon equipped - invaluable for saving ammo. Note that just like holding [up] to fire the other subweapons, you can't use the diagonals - so no leaping ahead while holding down/forward. That'll get you the Jumpslash as usual.

ii) the same input will also make the sword come out quicker, and it's cancellable into itself for a rapid-fire effect. For the second and all subsequent slashes, you need a slight delay between hitting [down] and [attack]; it's not quite simultaneous. Experiment with the rhythm a bit.

Note that even if you're not going for XTREEM speedrunner sword cancelling, the speed of even a single [down+attack] slash can be extremely useful. I use 'em all the time without really thinking about it, just to skip the small (but deadly, in this game's context) startup time.

[kitten]

In my imagination that involves holding the NES pad at a weird angle or bending your right hand awkwardly..
I say imagination cause I've held a nes pad once in my life around 5 years ago >_<

Ah yeah, Ive been trying to do the whirlwind trick here and there, haven't got it down. Does it cancel the animation or something?
Is it the original air slash that you hold down for, or the second one or both?

http://imgur.com/a/bP2cr

here's how i hold my controller. was too hard to get pics with holding it with both hands so they're mostly just how i hold one-half lol. i have KIND OF small hands for someone of my valkyrie-esque height (6'4"), so i think people with bigger hands might have a problem holding it this way. this is very comfortable/natural for me.

bonus for how i hold it playing rockman x:

http://imgur.com/a/OfMUb

and yeah bil explains how the cancel works

edit:

you just need to be holding down while you press slash to do the ordinary slash while having whirlwind. no special timing needed, just hold down first.

slash-cancelling is described a bit more exactly, here, if you still need help: http://ninjagaidenrta.wikia.com/wiki/NG1_Game_Mechanics

[Blinge]

Haha, Kitten going beyond the CoD with pictures

the X setup is ridiculous! I approve..

Note that just like holding [up] to fire the other subweapons, you can't use the diagonals - so no leaping ahead while holding down/forward.

Damn, that's why I kept failing to shuriken that fucking turret near the columns on stage 4 then.

Note that even if you're not going for XTREEM speedrunner sword cancelling, the speed of even a single [down+attack] slash can be extremely useful. I use 'em all the time without really thinking about it, just to skip the small (but deadly, in this game's context) startup time.

Oh, so.. If I do this I can jump up and hit birds as they spawn instead of getting twatted by them..?

[kitten]

the x set-up genuinely starts to hurt my hand after a little while. i can't remember if it hurt when i was a kid and my hands were still a bit smaller.

just realized ya'll know my dark secret now: i'm a hella nailbiter haha

i just replayed ninja gaiden a couple times for fun and actually enjoyed myself hope no one sees this

[Sumez]

are there human beings that play on a nes and do not place their thumb across both buttons in games like these? :O that is baffling for me to learn. this is basic behavior in a rockman game, where you need to fire multiple shots as you do a tall jump, which means holding down a but rapidly tapping b with the tip of your thumb.

I'm just as baffled. I think Mario is a better example though. That game requires you to constantly menipulate your use of the B button while jumping at the right moments. I'm really curious how Blinge holds his NES controller now, because this is the first I heard of it.
In those Mega Man situations where you need to mash shoot while jumping, I actually momentarily change into that awkward position where my index and middle fingers operate each of the B and A buttons, it's the only way for me to mash B.

As for Mega Man X. You map that slide dash to a shoulder button, it's the only thing that makes sense. I don't think I ever played a single X game without it

[Sumez]

where are you looking to determine it's pricey? it typically sells for 2k-3k loose yen on yahoo auctions japan, which isn't really particularly bad, especially for a late-life game. i think i got mine for like 1500 or something.

Are you sure about that? There's only one eBay listing of it for less than $100, but a lot of them up, that looks really ouchy. I never heard about this game before either, but now I really want it
I know eBay and YAJ can't be compared, but surely there should be some relation. And YAJ is too expensive for me.

[kitten]

Are you sure about that? There's only one eBay listing of it for less than $100, but a lot of them up, that looks really ouchy. I never heard about this game before either, but now I really want it
I know eBay and YAJ can't be compared, but surely there should be some relation. And YAJ is too expensive for me.

holy shit, is it really that much on ebay? lmao it is. goodness. that $58 listing on ebay is best offer, you might be able to talk the guy down! i use best offer all the time. it's a reliable shop rather than a seller looking to just unload, so my guess is you'll only be able to talk him down to about $50, maybe $45. always start low - if they reject you and don't even start the counteroffer, then raise. i'd probably start with a $30 and see if he bites with a counteroffer. there have been a rare few instances where i shoot someone a bullshit low price just to get the ball rolling with counter-offers and they bite immediately, who knows.

yeah, here, look at the YAJ sold listings (retains 4 months of information): http://closedsearch.auctions.yahoo.co.j ... 0&auccat=0

ALL of them for under 3000, one for only 1800.

http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/sear ... 22&fixed=0

beep shop (parape_pope_gugugu) has a complete listing up right now auction-style, and there's a couple instant buys for only about 3k.

I actually momentarily change into that awkward position where my index and middle fingers operate each of the B and A buttons, it's the only way for me to mash B.

i've gotten pretty good at holding a with the right side of my thumb and then like, vibrate-tapping it onto the b-button. i actually position my middle finger behind the controller as support, to kind of shove it back into my thumb as my thumb mashes. it's, uh, kinda weird, but really efficient. the index/middle mashing requires too much movement of the hand to be able to be something i can spontaneously burst into, but it is definitely another good solution if you're able to move your hand that quickly. i can honestly probably mash b slightly faster doing that, but i usually only take that set-up when i'd not need to use a d-pad in the game.

As for Mega Man X. You map that slide dash to a shoulder button, it's the only thing that makes sense. I don't think I ever played a single X game without it

i swear there's at least one you can't do that for... maybe? yeah, shoulder button is a better solution, but i got pretty used to my thumb-destroying grasp. and never even considered remappable controls, as a kid.

- - - - - -

if you let ninja gaiden run long enough after beating it, it will eventually cycle back to the opening! reliably! it seriously takes like 15 minutes or something nutty, though. what's extra weird is that you can't push anything on the end screen to make it advance back to the title - the only way is to reset or wait those 15-ish minutes.

[kitten]

oh, shit, also:



if you buy from beep shop (username: parape_pope_gugugu on YAJ but also sometimes just beep, i think) on yahoo auctions and you get a cartridge format game, they always send you this rad little plastic baggy with 2 q-tips, a phial of rubbing alcohol, and instructions not to blow into your cartridges. isn't that just adorable?

good luck winning auctions from them, though. they're a damn good seller - always have very good descriptions of damage, pictures of the game working on a proper tv & console, and a really good feedback history. people trust them a lot and their auctions tend to go for higher than average for auction prices. i have only won a few despite bidding on a ton because i am curmudgeonly as hell about getting my stuff as cheap as possible. i have gotten lucky a few times, though! <3 u beep shop

[Sumez]

i can honestly probably mash b slightly faster doing that, but i usually only take that set-up when i'd not need to use a d-pad in the game.

In the end there's not a lot of situations where you do that, since MM4 introduces the charge attack and overly long invincibility frames which does away with the classic jump-and-shoot gameplay - basically the ONLY thing I don't like about the masterpiece that is MM4 (if people tell you "that's where the series was going stale", whack them over the head for me ).
Also, all X games allow reconfiguring the buttons. I've been doing it since I played the first.

if you let ninja gaiden run long enough after beating it, it will eventually cycle back to the opening! reliably! it seriously takes like 15 minutes or something nutty, though. what's extra weird is that you can't push anything on the end screen to make it advance back to the title - the only way is to reset or wait those 15-ish minutes.

All of them do that, or at least the first two. Confused the hell out of me when I saw that, too I have a habit of leaving my games on the end screen after beating them.

[kitten]

In the end there's not a lot of situations where you do that, since MM4 introduces the charge attack and overly long invincibility frames which does away with the classic jump-and-shoot gameplay

imo rapid-fire shot is still a way better thing to do in most situations than charge. it comes out super fast and if you're a good masher almost always beats it out on dps. plus, most instances where you'd carry a charge shot onto the next screen have you blowing it on an enemy with just 1hp, anyway. i like how pretty much every 8-bit mega man after 4 tries to do something to encourage you to not charge all the time - which i think makes the games way more boring (clarification: i think charging all the time makes the game more boring, not the ways the games encourage you to not charge) and forces the player into a slower pace (even though the games are still just as quickly paced if you don't charge!). plus the sound is sometimes real disruptive to the super cool music.

5 and 6 nes both make it so you lose your charge if you take a hit. IV gb does this slight bit of recoil when you fire a charge shot that suggests you shouldn't be doing it while doing difficult platforming (almost all enemies around difficult platforming have 1hp - the game is pretty generous and consistent about that), and V gb reduces the range of the charge and has you deal with return time, since you're now launching your arm. i dislike how 5/6 handle it the most, since i think it ends up being confusing even to an experienced player, at times. probably like how V handles it best, but it's largely because a shoot-and-return attack like that works best on a smaller resolution screen. despite the gb game's generally slower fire rate, i still feel you rarely need to be charging your shots.

my personal mega man ratings is like... hm... 2 > V > 4 > 1 > 8 > 6 > IV > III > 5 > 3 > I >>>>>>> &F/&B > 7 > II

i wouldn't put 9 or 10 in there because i personally consider them fangames, though i don't think 9 is necessarily bad, just not very... good. 10 i think is awful, tho. roman numerals indicate the GB games (when did this become a popular thing for fans to do? i remember seeing and copying it from wayyyyy back)

All of them do that, or at least the first two. Confused the hell out of me when I saw that, too I have a habit of leaving my games on the end screen after beating them.

i frequently let mine sit there a while, too! not just out of laziness and refusal to go turn the console off - it's just nice to let that screen sit there a bit and gloat in the victory, i guess?

[Sumez]

imo rapid-fire shot is still a way better thing to do in most situations than charge. it comes out super fast and if you're a good masher almost always beats it out on dps. plus, most instances where you'd carry a charge shot onto the next screen have you blowing it on an enemy with just 1hp, anyway.

I was referring to the midbosses, which is the primary source of my jump-mashing. That's never a good idea in MM4 since the bosses have long enough invincibility frames that nothing other than charge shots will be effective against them.
In the following MM games more and more enemies had longer invincibility like that, making rapid firing progressively more useless.

my personal mega man ratings is like... hm... 2 > V > 4 > 1 > 8 > 6 > IV > III > 5 > 3 > I >>>>>>> &F/&B > 7 > II

Interesting priority. I don't think there's any wrong priority in Mega Man games, since they are all of high quality. I never quite understood the elevated status of Mega Man 2, however. As if it did anything the other games didn't do better. I tend to credit that tendency mostly to people's nostalgia. At the time of course, it was a game changer - a much more refined version of the already good first game, that changed Rockman from a one hit wonder into a mainstay of video game history.
In the end, of course, it's nitpicking that keeps it from the top of my own priority - the game would have been better off without most of Wily 4 and its mistake of a boss, and flashman's stage is so based on trial and error it almost hurts. The game does have a nice sense of variation though, and a classic rockin' soundtrack. I also like that E-tanks are still at this point a relative rarity and don't go further than 4. The biggest mistake of the later Mega Man games is showering you with 1ups and E-tanks, but even then I would still consider MM2 the easiest game of the bunch, by far, so that's not really helping it. And that's not considering the extra easy "normal" mode injected into the western release.
I find it extremely confusing that you would rate 4 that high while placing 3 so low on the list. I always found that the two were extremely close in terms of quality and generel design tendencies. The lack of charge shot and the amazing doc robot stages probably gives 3 the upper hand in my book, but I love the two equally.

i wouldn't put 9 or 10 in there

Dear god no