Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[__SKYe]

Jebus, that sounds scary. If I'm forced to use the sword, I'll get in close then whack him from across the pit. Slower but easy.

I hadn't thought of that. I just got used to do it this way.



Your way does seem much more friendly.

[Sumez]

I love how every single jump in the game is a puzzle like that. There are often many valid solutions depending on your goal and personal habits.

[FinalBaton]

I love how every single jump in the game is a puzzle like that. There are often many valid solutions depending on your goal and personal habits.

yep that's the beauty of the game

[Blinge]

Someone must've made the Stalingrad link before right?

Spoiler

[__SKYe]

Given the heat coming from NG's discussion here, I returned to the game to attempt a 1CC/1LC.

So far, I managed to reach 5-3 without losing any lives, and without using any sub-weapons.
I've mostly got the game down, so hopefully, it shouldn't take too long to achieve it.

I can now beat the first 2 final bosses quite nicely, but I've lost against Jashin a couple times. It's like I'm getting worse.

On the other hand, I may be rushing a little too much against him, and not paying enough attention to its fireballs. I really get the feeling that he is the type of boss that really punishes players who attempt to rush too much against his (apparently) simple design.

Since their fireballs are destructible, and the doges can't really land down there, you are pretty much 100% (IIRC) safe whenever you're under the pillars. I only leave to end it quicker.

More than that, as long as you don't jump, the fireballs won't ever hit you, as the dogs won't fire them while on the ground.
The dog you need to be more careful of, is the false one (that moves slower, and doesn't affect the boss' lifebar), because sometimes he'll jump very little forward, and can hit you if you're near the edge of the pillar. He can also jump in between the walls and the pillars (at the edges of the screen), due to his little forward jumps.

I love how every single jump in the game is a puzzle like that. There are often many valid solutions depending on your goal and personal habits.

One thing's for certain, if you play without sub-weapons, you invariably end up getting good at these kinds of precise jumps & slashes, because, in this game, they are pretty much mandatory.
They are a lot of fun to do too.

On a side note, what is the format/quality you guys/girls use, when you upload videos of your runs to Youtube?

[BIL]

I don't know how you resist those subweapons... the windmill star is too fun. Big respect for maximising your killing blade technique.

Am I correct in thinking Super Mario Collection (SFC)'s ports of Super Mario USA and Super Mario Bros 3 are more or less perfect? I recently picked up a copy of SMB1 from my good buddy Gamedigga, because the bugged bricks of the SFC version piss me off. 3; Also I got SMB2 Famicom Mini (GBA) for the same reason! Like a cornish pasty you've put in your back pocket and subsequently sat on, it's a bit smooshed resolutionwise but other than that quite serviceable! Now, comparing SMB USA (Famicom) to the Collection version, attempting my numerous stupid little tricks, it does indeed seem... teh perfect. ¦3

Near enough anyway. Not the biggest Mario 3 fan (not the biggest fan of the series in general tbh - outside of SMB2J they're in "nice bonus" territory), but I've always heard that one came out superbly too. Am I about right here? I greatly prefer the more spartan aesthetic of the Famicom games, but I dunno if I really need 'em.

[BrianC]

I remember hearing something was also off with the port of SMB2 US/USA as well. I saw a comparison video on youtube and they got out of sync at some points.

[BIL]

Aha, I hadn't thought to check Youtube. Greenalink's video shows a ton of bugfixes, mostly for stuff I didn't even know existed... guess I'm okay with this version, as long as there aren't any key mechanical screwups ala SMB1/2J's brick breaking.

[Vanguard]

I will check out your run when I get the time, probably not until tomorrow, but I always enjoy seeing how other people tackle each of the challenges presented by this game.
Btw, how long did it take for you to work on that 2-ALL? I feel like your general skill level is a lot higher than mine, so I suspect it wasn't as much of a "hassle" for you.

That video is actually my 2nd Daimakaimura clear. The first was a while ago, but the time from when I sat down and said "I'm gonna clear Daimakaimura!" and the actual clear was almost exactly 24 hours. I started playing one morning spent much of the day practicing, and then the next morning I started playing again and got the clear right away. I'd say it was around 7 hours the first day and 1 hour the second day. A month or two prior to that I credit fed through the game once, and I'll estimate that that took 3 hours. So all together around 11 hours of practice over 3 days.

How long did your 2-ALL take?

[__SKYe]

Oh, bloody hell, almost got the 1CC for Ninja Gaiden, but lost against Jashin.
Once again, managed to get to 5-3 without losing any lives, but then screwed up a couple times.
I tell you, it's like I can no longer beat that guy properly. I'm really starting to think I was lucky that I beat it the first time around.
Some 2 out of 3 times, I lose against him. Those random fireballs, are a bi***.

I did manage to get through the entire Act 6 with a single life.
Going for the 1LC, I just realized that I have to be much more careful with soaking hits, as there's no HP restore after death (it's a no-miss, after all), so Act 6 is quite a bit more tense.

The primary offender still is falling into a pit, after failing to slash an enemy on a platform. Both my deaths (minus the final, against Jashin) on this run, were exactly that.

[Vanguard]

Oh, bloody hell, almost got the 1CC for Ninja Gaiden, but lost against Jashin.
Once again, managed to get to 5-3 without losing any lives, but then screwed up a couple times.
I tell you, it's like I can no longer beat that guy properly. I'm really starting to think I was lucky that I beat it the first time around.
Some 2 out of 3 times, I lose against him. Those random fireballs, are a bi***.

Did you know that if you mash down on the d-pad you can cancel your aerial slashes? It isn't terribly useful for most of the game, but it will increase your damage output against Jashin by quite a bit.

[__SKYe]

Did you know that if you mash down on the d-pad you can cancel your aerial slashes? It isn't terribly useful for most of the game, but it will increase your damage output against Jashin by quite a bit.

Ah, I know, it's just that I went through the entire game without using it (although, like you said, outside Jashin it isn't exactly necessary), and it pains me to think/admit that I can't beat the damn thing fair and square.

[Squire Grooktook]

I will check out your run when I get the time, probably not until tomorrow, but I always enjoy seeing how other people tackle each of the challenges presented by this game.
Btw, how long did it take for you to work on that 2-ALL? I feel like your general skill level is a lot higher than mine, so I suspect it wasn't as much of a "hassle" for you.

That video is actually my 2nd Daimakaimura clear. The first was a while ago, but the time from when I sat down and said "I'm gonna clear Daimakaimura!" and the actual clear was almost exactly 24 hours. I started playing one morning spent much of the day practicing, and then the next morning I started playing again and got the clear right away. I'd say it was around 7 hours the first day and 1 hour the second day. A month or two prior to that I credit fed through the game once, and I'll estimate that that took 3 hours. So all together around 11 hours of practice over 3 days.

How long did your 2-ALL take?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I think a credit feed victory was done in about 1-2 hours. 1cc took several additional attempts (so another hour or two). 1lc too longer. I think a few short play sessions spread out over a week.

[Vanguard]

Ah, I know, it's just that I went through the entire game without using it (although, like you said, outside Jashin it isn't exactly necessary), and it pains me to think/admit that I can't beat the damn thing fair and square.

If you can reach him at all then you're right on the verge of clearing the game, glitch or no.

I'll argue until the sun goes out that there's nothing unfair about the jump slash glitch, but I respect that you haven't backed down one inch in your pursuit of this challenge run.

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I think a credit feed victory was done in about 1-2 hours. 1cc took several additional attempts (so another hour or two). 1lc too longer. I think a few short play sessions spread out over a week.

A few 1-2 hour play sessions, or 1-2 hours for the 1cc? 2-4 hours for the 1cc is impressive.

[Squire Grooktook]

1-2 hours for the 1cc yeah. I remember I got it on like 2nd or 3rd attempt after credit feeding through.

[kitten]

That bat? Wait for him to get close, kill him, then proceed. Just like the 5-2 exit eagle, he won't respawn. If you're on some breakneck 1337 speedrun, yeah, you'll need to do some voodoo. See every speedrun ever?

i very seriously sat there killing that thing and watching it respawn. i don't know how super close you have to be to be able to get him to not respawn. this is one of my biggest points of criticism with the game, in general - enemies do not spawn from the edge of the screen, but a little bit out from it, and this makes their spawn point a little bit ambiguous as well as dealing with them more abrupt than it should be for such a fast-paced game.

Yes? I just finished saying a few posts up that superior NG1 play requires you to identify its various chokepoints, then break them outright with targeted aggression. That's the game in a nutshell. Again, you've misidentified it as some Gun-Dec free for all, when it is in fact as methodical as Castlevania despite the much higher game speed and more flexible character. Work on that. You complain endlessly about your "intution" being foiled - chances are your inutition for this particular game is woefully misguided.

my point in my big post is that the game requires a pretty unusually high amount of memorization and a pretty high amount of dealing with some really weirdly unique quirks. the individual examples, which i think you were reading as me moaning as nightmarishly impossible hurdles or romhack cruelty, are simply just bits of design i find highly unpleasant and sometimes counter-intuitive to memorize. that's all. i feel like it makes for a bad game. i do not disagree with you that you can get the game down to a serious calculation and play it impressively, but i do not believe it is as deliberate or refined as other games are about it.

In other words, I conserve the ammo for my subweapon wherever possible - gotcha. Citation needed on the down+slash empty hand being a bug, btw.

it's the same behavior that allows you to repeatedly get multiple slashes out - i don't feel like it's a leap to assume it's a bug. this is something i didn't even know about on either of my previous plays and makes a fucking tremendous difference in getting through many of the game's tougher portions. whirlwind felt like a ninpo-eating detriment before this.

It's definitely a pretty mean spawn, but also extremely out of the ordinary, and heavily compensated for. Ignoring that those hunchbacks will miss an advancing player, a time freeze is right there, you've just gotten a life restore, they can only do 1HP per hit, and the boss rush will restore your life to max.

In other words, it's mean and clearly the designers getting their jollies with a ridiculous ambush right before the game's end - but given its singularity and the associated compensation, it's nothing I'd knock the game down for. You're making a tiny bit of questionable design sound like a microcosm of the game at large, yet again.

i assume there's no consideration for someone new at the game reaching this point? i mostly prefer my action to allow me to correct mistakes in real time - if i make a small one, allow me time to correct the error and pull out of a tailspin. ninja gaiden is strict but lacks uniformity in its strictness - there are points where what i feel like forgivable play results in death and unforgivable play doesn't (the game ultimately defines what it considers forgivable or not, but again, the whole crux of my argument is that its definitions are weird). sometimes, walking back a step results in an enemy meant to be spawned when scrolling the other direction getting a cheap hit, sometimes into a pit. other times, walking back is perfectly safe and a good way to deal with a relentless nuisance. deciphering when and where these points are requires a fair amount of trial-and-error (or developing a high intuition for the game's spawning quirk) and creates a script that seems less-than-entirely-deliberate.

In other words, the game punishes retreat. And yet no, if you do retreat, the ninja won't instakill you - he's much too far away. Yet again you've conjured up a fanfiction murderspawn.

try this point again, and do what i said. the enemy that comes to attack that ledge is not the green hopping ninja, it's one of those dudes who... i don't know how to describe his behavior? the ones that spawn around the time stopper? dude flies right at the platform if you move back a single inch, staying perfectly on the platform the whole time. he's an enemy that is clearly meant to be attacking a forward moving player dealing with the chakram tosser, but his spawn point also activates when you take a step back from that platform. he goes straight for the platform and i'm pretty sure is certain death if you take a step back while trying to position to kill the eagle. this is a super, super, super small step back, too, not what i would call "retreat," and there are a few instances in the game like this.

my point is that retreat's punishment is sometimes just weirdly harsh, other times it's a bit of a smart thing to do. you tend to need to memorize enemy spawn points in this game more than positioning, which feels weird. you also need to remember because of the fact they spontaneously appear at the edge of the screen that it's not a dot, but a somewhat wide line. i feel like enemies meant for a forward spawn should only spawn on a forward spawn

You mentioned totally being able to 2-ALL Metal Storm, but just never bothering because you felt it beneath you - if we're going to play internet shrink again (groan), I'd suspect you tend to hastily write practiced techniques off as "rote" without mastering them yourself.

this feels like a low blow, BIL. again, i played through the game restarting stages with a password quite frequently. each previous level became something i could get down pat before moving onto the next one, because i'd frequently have to play the entirety of the previous one to a level of relatively high competency before continuing. i had most levels down to a serious routine where i'd almost never die on them before getting the next, and then the next would be gotten to that level when i finished and had to replay it repeatedly in preparation for the one after, and so on. i didn't say it was "beneath me," i said i wouldn't have enjoyed it and that it probably wouldn't have taken another day of play.

i am probably going to get ninja gaiden down to a no miss clear today - am i not entitled to call it "rote" if i still feel that way? i am still not enjoying playing it (about to boot it up again, today, haven't started just yet). i don't feel different at all about my opinions. this above quoted text is genuinely making me uncomfortable.

Nobody in this thread likes NG1's boss roster - Jaquio aside, it's regularly acknowledged as the game's weakest link. And everyone agrees Malth is especially weak as fuck. Please don't dress these things up as pearls of wisdom for our benefit, it's embarrassing.

i do not feel as if that's what i was doing? i just feel like the extent to which the bosses are bad in this game combined with how weird it is to memorize and how mediocre most of its visual quality is suggests that it's not the masterpiece it is made out to be. i brought up the st5 boss because i figured he was something you all likely agreed upon, i don't feel as i'm unearthing something uncovered for any of you.

- - - -



down to just a couple deaths. first run today was a 1cc

[kitten]

i'm double posting cuz HECK >:I

there we go, my very next run after that 1cc was a no miss! i picked the 1up up from 4-2 if you're wondering why i have 3 lives. i still feel pretty much the same about the game, but i feel like this is at least proof that i learned it :p if this were a game i liked, i feel like i could get to the point i could reliably do this without notable sloppiness and was on the way there with each successive run being a little better than the last. i hope that it never felt i suggested as if this game could not be gotten down to reliable execution! my criticisms lie elsewhere

aw, bil, you already added me to the task force, even with my scrub runs

[__SKYe]

i'm double posting cuz HECK >:I

there we go, my very next run after that 1cc was a no miss! i picked the 1up up from 4-2 if you're wondering why i have 3 lives. i still feel pretty much the same about the game, but i feel like this is at least proof that i learned it :p if this were a game i liked, i feel like i could get to the point i could reliably do this without notable sloppiness and was on the way there with each successive run being a little better than the last. i hope that it never felt i suggested as if this game could not be gotten down to reliable execution! my criticisms lie elsewhere

Hell yeah, very nice job.

If you can reach him at all then you're right on the verge of clearing the game, glitch or no.

I'll argue until the sun goes out that there's nothing unfair about the jump slash glitch...

Absolutely.
The Down+Slash isn't anymore unfair than the infinite combo in Final Fight & Streets Of Rage, or using the platform item(s) in the MegaMan games (like using it in HeatMan's stage to pass through the disappearing blocks section).

And both the 'no sub-weapon' and the 'no jump slash glitch', fall squarely into the realm of self-imposed challenge, and I want to do them purely for my own enjoyment.

[BIL]

i very seriously sat there killing that thing and watching it respawn. i don't know how super close you have to be to be able to get him to not respawn. this is one of my biggest points of criticism with the game, in general - enemies do not spawn from the edge of the screen, but a little bit out from it, and this makes their spawn point a little bit ambiguous as well as dealing with them more abrupt than it should be for such a fast-paced game.

Oh, this bat. (good lord it's been a while, had to track down the exact one)

Spoiler

Yeah, he does take some edging to stop respawning. I'd just jump over him like I do in my kusoplay. The ledge beyond, like nearly all blind ledges in this game, has no guard. OR, if it were one of the rare ones that spawns something as you land, it'd be placed to ensure you land safely and regain the option of jumping or attacking before it got near you. (see 5-2 leopard discussed earlier; see 6-2 bat below for the one truly egregious exception to this in my book)

As to the way NG should be: I'm happy with what it in reality is - a uniquely fast-paced take on Castlevania's methodical action platforming. If your ideal for the series really is NRIII, a more polished yet also infinitely more trivial game I consider redeemed only by its US version, we're never going to see eye to eye here. I'm well aware NG1's a relatively glitchy, rough-around-the-edges affair; nobody who enjoys it will fail to notice that. Thing is, I find it holds together marvelously for the style of action its designers were purveying.

my point in my big post is that the game requires a pretty unusually high amount of memorization and a pretty high amount of dealing with some really weirdly unique quirks. the individual examples, which i think you were reading as me moaning as nightmarishly impossible hurdles or romhack cruelty, are simply just bits of design i find highly unpleasant and sometimes counter-intuitive to memorize. that's all. i feel like it makes for a bad game. i do not disagree with you that you can get the game down to a serious calculation and play it impressively, but i do not believe it is as deliberate or refined as other games are about it.

Sorry, I really did assume you were reacting to all that stuff with more than mere bemusement.

What other games exactly? We seem to play a lot of the same stuff. As far as the FC goes, most of the games of NG1's ilk tend to be slower, or slacker, or just drastically easier. Even its own sequels didn't get it right (they were doomed as soon as they started screwing about with its engine). CV1/CV3: too slow. NG2: crap sword. NG3: NG In Space. NR3/Gun-Dec: too goddamn slack, fun to style on though. Batman/Shatterhand: real platforming simulators. Dragon Fighter/Kage/Jigoku Gokurakumaru: not merciless enough. Ninja Crusaders: got speed but no oomph.

These are all good/great games (naturally - I own 'em all edit: oh god, except for NC), but I wouldn't say NG fares particularly poorly among them. We're never going to get along re: Dynamite Batman. 3;

it's the same behavior that allows you to repeatedly get multiple slashes out - i don't feel like it's a leap to assume it's a bug. this is something i didn't even know about on either of my previous plays and makes a fucking tremendous difference in getting through many of the game's tougher portions. whirlwind felt like a ninpo-eating detriment before this.

The regular sword cancel I can believe is a bug. I don't believe the mechanic that prevents Jumpslash from becoming an instant death sentence for your ammo stock, while still preserving the subweapon's crucial weakness of neutering your forward leaping sword, is a bug. Something that was spotted and left, ala the boss rush knockback? Maybe. If it truly was something the designers had no idea about, it's one of the most serendipitous bugs I've ever seen, saving them from the massive own-goal of an uncontrollably vampiric subweapon. Rendering its provenance a moot point IMO.

I normally wouldn't make a big deal over this, but I think you're being a bit too trigger-happy on the bug claims. Like I said, there's an unmistakable unrefinement to this game, gradually ironed out by its sequels - but it's not some coded-by-chimps clusterfuck ala Holy Diver, or a "dodge this, asshole!" ala Dynamite Batman st3-1. On the contrary its stage designs, collision detection and control response are generally super-tight.

i assume there's no consideration for someone new at the game reaching this point? i mostly prefer my action to allow me to correct mistakes in real time - if i make a small one, allow me time to correct the error and pull out of a tailspin. ninja gaiden is strict but lacks uniformity in its strictness - there are points where what i feel like forgivable play results in death and unforgivable play doesn't (the game ultimately defines what it considers forgivable or not, but again, the whole crux of my argument is that its definitions are weird). sometimes, walking back a step results in an enemy meant to be spawned when scrolling the other direction getting a cheap hit, sometimes into a pit. other times, walking back is perfectly safe and a good way to deal with a relentless nuisance. deciphering when and where these points are requires a fair amount of trial-and-error (or developing a high intuition for the game's spawning quirk) and creates a script that seems less-than-entirely-deliberate.

It's a dick move for sure, I just think it's a very self-aware and extremely isolated one. If a piano fell out of the ceiling and instakilled you, or even took half your HP, I'd call it unacceptable. If you're staggering to that point at 2HP (impressive, given the 50% HP restore in the candle right beforehand), yeah, I imagine it'd suck, just like getting steamrolled by Jashin's fleeing head. These aren't things I'd hold against the designers though, unlike the disgust I'm left with after trying yet again to enjoy Dynamite Batman only to get pelted with undodgeable shit in st3-1. (I know that'll sound like a cheap shot, but I honestly consider DB's 3-1 the definitive example of egregiously shoddy memoriser design in FC sidescrolling, and beyond... Paypal is ready to go, buddy's got a nice copy, but yet again I've had to turn it down!)

try this point again, and do what i said. the enemy that comes to attack that ledge is not the green hopping ninja, it's one of those dudes who... i don't know how to describe his behavior? the ones that spawn around the time stopper? dude flies right at the platform if you move back a single inch, staying perfectly on the platform the whole time. he's an enemy that is clearly meant to be attacking a forward moving player dealing with the chakram tosser, but his spawn point also activates when you take a step back from that platform. he goes straight for the platform and i'm pretty sure is certain death if you take a step back while trying to position to kill the eagle. this is a super, super, super small step back, too, not what i would call "retreat," and there are a few instances in the game like this.

Ah yes, the hunchbacks. You'll have to excuse me - it's been a while since I approached that particular jump with anything but a steely, teeth-gritting, ass-clenching focus on clearing the abyss and moving ahead to nail the 1LC. This goes for much of the game, in fact. So:

Spoiler

Someone definitely got insta-killed there, but it wasn't me. RIP Igor. It's a pretty fucking brutal tripwire indeed, but as usual it's aimed to not instakill. I'm surprised you didn't bring up this one, which my travels to 6-3 reminded me of. It's the one ledge-related spawn I think goes over the line into instakill territory, though it's in fact just very tight.

Spoiler

You can land and kill the bat with your sword, never mind hitting him on your way down. You can even land and duck under him, but yeah, too tight for my liking overall.

It's also, like most of NG1's really nasty stuff, deep in the heart of the gleaming azure hell that is 6-2, where frankly, I expect the game to come at me in a dark alley with a razorwire garotte. It's the bloody peak of a (calculatedly) cruel game, with 6-3 its coda. And even then, none of this stuff is anywhere near as comprehensively unfair as, say, Castlevania's 6-1 and 6-2, where the player is simply fucked without an airtight plan executed to a T.

my point is that retreat's punishment is sometimes just weirdly harsh, other times it's a bit of a smart thing to do. you tend to need to memorize enemy spawn points in this game more than positioning, which feels weird. you also need to remember because of the fact they spontaneously appear at the edge of the screen that it's not a dot, but a somewhat wide line. i feel like enemies meant for a forward spawn should only spawn on a forward spawn

You certainly need to memorise the game's layout, including its spawn points. I treat every action game I play this way, which is perhaps why NG's spawns don't leap out at me the same way. What you do with those spawns is relatively unrestricted, OTOH. What I can't stand are spawns that auto-screw you until you can recite the correct response every time, ala Dynamite Batman's 3-1 with its rockets and wizards.

this feels like a low blow, BIL. again, i played through the game restarting stages with a password quite frequently. each previous level became something i could get down pat before moving onto the next one, because i'd frequently have to play the entirety of the previous one to a level of relatively high competency before continuing. i had most levels down to a serious routine where i'd almost never die on them before getting the next, and then the next would be gotten to that level when i finished and had to replay it repeatedly in preparation for the one after, and so on. i didn't say it was "beneath me," i said i wouldn't have enjoyed it and that it probably wouldn't have taken another day of play.

Sorry, dick move. Or should I say... elitist prick move. (ha! in-joke) There's a huge difference between nailing stages in training mode (= Metal Storm's PWs) and putting a seamless performance together. I just think you're being overly dismissive of the latter element.

i am probably going to get ninja gaiden down to a no miss clear today - am i not entitled to call it "rote" if i still feel that way? i am still not enjoying playing it (about to boot it up again, today, haven't started just yet). i don't feel different at all about my opinions. this above quoted text is genuinely making me uncomfortable.

"Rote" would be a deeply dishonest way of describing NG overall, I believe. Rote implies not just practiced method, ala CV or NG, but binary right/wrong, live/die game design, restriction, a trivial performance ceiling, regurgitation over technique, stagnation. The worst bits of Contra: Hard Corps and Shattered Soldier, I'd call rote. Ninja Spirit's execrable ninja pit, rote for sure.

i do not feel as if that's what i was doing? i just feel like the extent to which the bosses are bad in this game combined with how weird it is to memorize and how mediocre most of its visual quality is suggests that it's not the masterpiece it is made out to be. i brought up the st5 boss because i figured he was something you all likely agreed upon, i don't feel as i'm unearthing something uncovered for any of you.

I don't know if this game is generally considered a masterpiece here. It's just very well-liked. I suspect you're taking Marble's quote in the OP a bit literally? I thought it was cute. I've always regarded NG1 as a flawed gem, and an exceptionally well-judged (and amusingly brazen) retooling of an existing classic. It certainly has masterful elements in its handling and stage designs, but I would compare the regard it's held in here to something like Battle Garegga. IE, even its diehard fans know it's a bit burnt around the edges. As my shumps hero Rob once said, perfect games are overrated.

I don't find the game weird at all, but it having a particularly idiosyncratic take on Castlevania-style action is a strength where I'm concerned. I wish there'd been just one more sidescroller like it.

Not interested in its graphics, personally, the nice compact sprites aside. I like the minor cinematic continuity of its second half (jungle infiltration, capture and escape, grueling climb back up). That's about it though, it's not a very remarkable game visually. NG fans in this thread overwhelmingly praise its fast pace and method/twitch balance, not its looks. Hang on, this'll make a cracking citation in my ongoing trial for graphics whoremongering!

I have no idea what people say about this game elsewhere - good or ill. I enjoy this state of affairs.

edit: oh hey, good job!

aw, bil, you already added me to the task force, even with my scrub runs

Survival alone shows one to be made of far sterner stuff than any mere scrub. ;3

[__SKYe]

Hell yeah, finally managed to get a no sub-weapons 1CC.
Came close to get a 1LC, but lost a life on 6-3. That one will have to wait.

Fortunately, Jashin was nice enough to let me finish him.
Made many more mistakes than normal, mistakes that, on a normal run, I wouldn't have made. And I honestly didn't think that this run would end up being the 1CC, so I continued it, instead of resetting.
Honestly, I am tired, and it was the last run I was going to do today, so, all things considered, it's not too shabby.
But I will most definitely go for that bloody 1LC.

Also recorded the movie in the emulator, but I'll have to convert it to AVI (or the like), if I want to upload it to Youtube.
Don't know if anyone's interested but, in the meantime, here's the file.
It was recorded in FCEUX 2.2.3, and it uses the US version of the game.

EDIT: Updated links.

[BIL]

Nicely done, IIRC that's our first no-subweapons 1CC! (hope I'm not wrong there, I'm up way past bedtime myself) Will add the Youtube link to the OP when it's done uploading, if you like.

[kitten]

Yeah, he does take some edging to stop respawning. I'd just jump over him like I do in my kusoplay. The ledge beyond, like nearly all blind ledges in this game, has no guard. OR, if it were one of the rare ones that spawns something as you land, it'd be placed to ensure you land safely and regain the option of jumping or attacking before it got near you. (see 5-2 leopard discussed earlier; see 6-2 bat below for the one truly egregious exception to this in my book)

i did test to see if it was possible to edge super-closely to get on one of those two last runs, today. it's possible, but man, you gotta get real close. a lot of my criticisms are not accurate based on adjustment of very seriously just a few pixels (such as the 5-3 machine gun guy i complained about - you can kill him with a subweapon if you're very close, as you pointed out), but the enemy spawning in this game throws me for such a damn loop that i feel it's accurate as a learning player's experience (which you may, fairly, consider irrelevant to how much you like this game when i played at a purely competent level). in another game, i'd find many of examples of similar design fine, but again, that not-exactly-the-edge-of-screen spawning and potential respawning really gets my goat. it's possible to approach this ledge and take a jump before the bat even spawns that, provided the bat weren't there, would land you on safe ground. i feel like having to run to the edge to spawn it becomes something you memorize rather than something you react naturally to, which would require some seriously split-second timing. i'm willing to bet there are many ledges you do not get that close to before deciding to jump off, but please correct me if i'm wrong.

As to the way NG should be: I'm happy with what it in reality is - a uniquely fast-paced take on Castlevania's methodical action platforming. If your ideal for the series really is NRIII, a more polished yet also infinitely more trivial game I consider redeemed only by its US version, we're never going to see eye to eye here.

i do hope i've at least made points for why my taste is the way it is better than edmond. i still consider it a bad game - but concession deserved, my stubbornness is not so great i'll refuse to back from a point just for the sake of argument - i did take a small amount of thrill in my no miss and 1cc that was a bit pleasant. i much better understand what it is you and others like about it, at least.

What other games exactly? We seem to play a lot of the same stuff. As far as the FC goes, most of the games of NG1's ilk tend to be slower, or slacker, or just drastically easier. Even its own sequels didn't get it right (they were doomed as soon as they started screwing about with its engine). CV1/CV3: too slow. NG2: crap sword. NG3: NG In Space. NR3/Gun-Dec: too goddamn slack, fun to style on though. Batman/Shatterhand: real platforming simulators. Dragon Fighter/Kage/Jigoku Gokurakumaru: not merciless enough. Ninja Crusaders: got speed but no oomph.

These are all good/great games (naturally - I own 'em all edit: oh god, except for NC ), but I wouldn't say NG fares particularly poorly among them. We're never going to get along re: Dynamite Batman. 3;

i'd be extremely interested in hearing you do a take-apart of ninja crusaders in the same way you take apart ninja gaiden. the game absolutely doesn't deserve it, but it would be a very good look into your game preferences. perhaps there's nothing completely comparable to ninja gaiden in terms of combination speed/methodical nature that out-refines it, but i do consider many of those more refined at what, in particular, they're doing.

I normally wouldn't make a big deal on this point, but I think you're being a bit too trigger-happy on the bug claims. Like I said, there's an unmistakable unrefinement to this game, gradually ironed out by its sequels - but it's not some coded-by-chimps clusterfuck ala Holy Diver, or a "dodge this, asshole!" ala Dynamite Batman st3-1. On the contrary its stage designs, collision detection and control response are generally super-tight.

fair enough. in dynamite batman 3-1, you have a huge health bar to mitigate taking some surprise hits. a couple of these hits are admittedly quicker than almost anything ninja gaiden, but never with punishment of death. it's not until 3-2 that there's the knife guy that can knock you into a pit, and i feel the reaction time needed to jump again and over the knife or to move forward far enough to not fall into a pit is very similar to multiple instances in ninja gaiden, but this is one of the rare instances in dynamite batman this even happens (i would argue ninja gaiden has many more similar instances). stage 3 is a huge killer for so many people when i feel it's not terribly indicative of the rest of the game, before and after.

(I know that'll sound like a cheap shot, but I honestly consider DB's 3-1 the definitive example of egregiously shoddy memoriser design in FC sidescrolling, and beyond... Paypal is ready to go, buddy's got a nice copy, but yet again I've had to turn it down!)

i want to stress how little i memorize about this portion other than "be shooting as i jump forward" to get myself through it on replays. i remember a very vague behavior to perform, but i absolutely don't remember placement of the enemies and frequently take multiple hits as my impatience gets the better of me and i charge through the stage. i'm usually firing a C's charged shot as i advance, or rapid-firing N if i'm looking to play the game with a different flavor. the other two weapons i find mostly useless, and i don't understand why the game doesn't just let you change on the fly rather than put those stupid boxes everywhere. the boxes are so frequent and you can always get what you want out of them - just clean the game up and let select allow me to choose which i want, when i want.

You can land and kill the bat with your sword, never mind hitting him on your way down. You can even land and duck under him, but yeah, too tight for my liking overall.

i felt the other ones were better examples. this one is definitely mean, but you can either get him as you land (without any subweapon) or actually advance far enough on the previous ledge to trigger him and safely jump over. i've once fallen off the ledge trying to do that, though. i swear this game is weird about how long it thinks a ledge is, sometimes. there are power-ups positioned on the edge of ledges that will sometimes fall through them and sometimes land on them, too (i once swore out loud as i watched the 4-2 potion go through that ambiguously lengthened rail platform).

It's also, like most of the game's really nasty stuff, deep in the heart of the gleaming azure hell that is 6-2, where frankly, I expect the game to come at me in a dark alley with a razorwire garotte. It's the bloody peak of a (calculatedly) cruel game, with 6-3 its coda. And even then, none of this stuff is anywhere near as comprehensively unfair as, say, Castlevania's 6-1 and 6-2, where the player is simply fucked without an airtight plan executed to a T.

my usual strategy with 6-1 in castlevania is to just run past the bats. i think it's only the first and last ones that have a -chance- of doing a pattern that can swoop at and hit you if you do this, landing you in a pit. it feels like a damn lottery. i've never done a no miss of castlevania because of this (plenty of 1cc's), but there have been probably a half dozen times i've gotten there without dying and then had one decide it was time for me to die. i love castlevania a lot, but its last stage is inexcusably poor design, to me.

You certainly need to memorise the game's layout, including its spawn points. I treat every action game I play this way, which is perhaps why NG's spawns don't leap out at me the same way.

this is probably one of our most fundamentally different approaches to these types of games. remembering this stuff feels extra painful, to me.

Sorry, dick move. Or should I say... elitist prick move. (ha! in-joke) There's a huge difference between nailing stages in training mode (= Metal Storm's PWs) and putting a seamless performance together. I just think you're being overly dismissive of the latter element.

i don't think i'm being terribly dismissive - i really do think i have the confidence in my ability to be able to perform a 2-ALL and really did stop because i didn't want to spend the next day with raw nerves going at a joyless task (it wouldn't be the first time i had cleared something out of pure stubbornness and without any fun - the mega man 9 speedrun top time and mega man 10 no-damage run were both this). i believe i'd also previously estimated (i don't know if i ever said it in this thread, this was maybe just a personal musing) that a no miss of ninja gaiden would only take me a day, too - which was about accurate. i didn't finish one yesterday, but i admitted not being in a very good way, stopped early, and trounced it real quick into today. i really do believe that at the level of practice i was at the day i stopped with metal storm, i would have been able to 2-ALL metal storm with another day. would it have been tough? oh, hell yes, but my biggest roadblock was the final stage, where i seriously feel like the transforming boss was absolutely something i'd not mastered doing without a shield to absorb a hit.

i want to stress it wouldn't have been easy peasy or anything like that at all! but i mean, look at my list of 1cc's and no miss clears - i feel like i have enough handle to hazard a relatively accurate estimation. i had metal storm's second loop down about the same i had r-type's levels down before it took one additional day for the stars to align and to no miss. i don't at all feel like skill is out of the equation in either of these games (ninja gaiden or metal storm - or r-type, of course, but i feel like my praise for it pages back already suggested this), but the degree to which it becomes rote memorization over skill is a personal drawn line for my own entertainment value.

"Rote" would be a deeply dishonest way of describing NG overall, I believe. Rote implies not just practiced method, ala CV or NG, but binary right/wrong, live/die game design, restriction, a trivial performance ceiling, regurgitation over technique, stagnation. The worst bits of Contra: Hard Corps and Shattered Soldier, I'd call rote. Ninja Spirit's execreable ninja pit, rote for sure.

i think this is just a difference of consideration of the word - i'm much more quick to use it, than you, for sure. i pointed out earlier in the thread that you go for a more demanding execution in your recreational play than i tend to. a good bit of fun for me in games is forgetting large portions and then adapting in the quick of it to pull of a satisfying victory. it's why i gave up on leaderboards for games i'd topped, quickly, too. part of why i so adore classic mega man is that i almost always forget significant nuance to many of the robot master's patterns, and it makes them exciting all over again.

I don't know if this game is generally considered a masterpiece here. It's just very well-liked. I suspect you're taking Marble's quote in the OP a bit literally? I thought it was cute. I've always regarded NG1 as a flawed gem, and an exceptionally well-judged retooling of an existing classic. It certainly has masterful elements in its handling and stage designs, but I would compare the regard it's held in here to something like Battle Garegga. IE, even its diehard fans know it's a bit burnt around the edges. As my shumps hero Rob once said, perfect games are overrated.

i'm probably (unfairly, at my own fault and no one else's) taking a little bit of what's outside the forum in the door with how this game often gets hailed, honestly. i don't think i read marble's post, or haven't read it since before joining. i'm hypersensitive to words like "masterpiece" being used because i've been eating off the floor that youtubers shit on before coming here - see my feathers getting mildly ruffled at sumez for calling hebereke a masterpiece a few pages back, despite it being a game i rather like.

Hang on, this'll make a cracking citation in my ongoing trial for graphics whoremongering!

Survival alone shows one to be made of sterner stuff than a mere scrub. ;3

thanks

Hell yeah, finally managed to get a no sub-weapons 1CC.

hey, good job!!

edit:

i forget to mention that during my run (bil, gawsh, ya'd be so proud), i got through the hyper infamous 6-2 chokepoint after having accidentally picked up the basic shuriken power up. i didn't even use it when getting through that room! there was a fair bit of improvisation on the run.

[FinalBaton]

Good job kitten and __SKYe!

Crrently compositing my own 1LC of the game, will be uploaded on youtube in a couple hours

[FinalBaton]

As to the way NG should be: I'm happy with what it in reality is - a uniquely fast-paced take on Castlevania's methodical action platforming. If your ideal for the series really is NRIII, a more polished yet also infinitely more trivial game I consider redeemed only by its US version, we're never going to see eye to eye here.

BIL. we're on the same wavelenght here

You certainly need to memorise the game's layout, including its spawn points. I treat every action game I play this way, which is perhaps why NG's spawns don't leap out at me the same way.

Annnnnd here as well.

[__SKYe]

hey, good job!!

Good job kitten and __SKYe!

Thanks, just doing my share for the Ninja Ryukenden Squad.

Nicely done, IIRC that's our first no-subweapons 1CC! (hope I'm not wrong there, I'm up way past bedtime myself) Will add the Youtube link to the OP when it's done uploading, if you like.

You honor me BIL.
I will probably do it tomorrow, as I still have to convert the file to AVI (or whatever) and upload it.
Hell, I still have to create a Youtube account.

Oh, one last thing I almost forgot.
As the last gaming run for the day, I fired Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun, and got the 1LC on the first (and only) run. Overall a pretty easy game (on Level 1, at least), and the 1LC was long past due.
I'll probably upload that too later.
Here's the movie file (recorded in FCEUX as well), if it interests someone.

Anyway, time to go to bed.

By the way, is there a specific video format better/easier to upload to youtube? Certainly you guys/girls don't upload 1GB+ AVI files right?

EDIT: Updated links.

[FinalBaton]

By the way, is there a specific video format better/easier to upload to youtube? Certainly you guys/girls don't upload 1GB+ AVI files right?

I... err... I actually do that, yes

I'd like to think I'm doing this right tho!
I use the H264 codec, which compresses a lot but still gives good quality visuals. Set it to a bit below medium quality, with medium speed. I end up with files between 750mb and 1.25gb for those NES action games. That's for 720p vids. I could lower the quality even more in the codec settings but I don't wanna do that; I don't want the video quality of my longplays to be lower than what they are now.

I have a slow pc tho. With a good one I'm sure the process would be a good deal quicker. Oh well, I just composite and upload my vids before going to bed and in the morning, they're done. Takes me 4 hours or so, but it's painless that way.

[Blinge]

Call me crazy but I wouldn't put myself through the grinder of No Missing a game I don't like just to serve as evidence for saying it's a bad game.

Yeah I think that size is the standard, Skye.. It's a pain in the ass with my shitty upload speed. Especially when youtube's uploader sucks up ALL that speed so I can barely do anything internet related, I assume it's because my information packages can no longer get to websites I want.

[kitten]

Call me crazy but I wouldn't put myself through the grinder of No Missing a game I don't like just to serve as evidence for saying it's a bad game.

well, i do it for more reasons than just that, it's just easier to call some of my runs with games hate clears. let me explain:

i feel it is important to occasionally play things you don't like to a competent level to understand them so that you can better comprehend what it is you like or dislike. this experience and knowledge gained by playing ninja gaiden to this level is something that you can take into other games, including those that you like to help temper your appreciation for them. not to mention, i get to discuss what it is that people on here like, so that i can see if my perspective has become too tunneled to be what i'd consider a fair perspective to keep, going forward. this was the biggest motivation. i'm sure that many on here have a game they considered their meat grinder to appreciating tough games! you never stop learning

doing a mrs perfect run of mega man 10 (no hits taken at all) was extremely illustrative of how poor certain games can become when you take their action to an extremely arbitrary perfectionism. speedrunning mega man 9 was similarly illustrative that when your goal is speed (a goal as single-minded and arbitrary as no-damage, but at least slightly more in line with the game's design ideals), it can ruin a lot of finer points of the game.

for me, the most fun there is in a game is when you're still learning it, which is why i've never gotten heavily into speedrunning despite having a capacity for it. i feel like games become dull or monotonous routine a bit quicker than this forum's average user (which seems to mostly be competent players), but perhaps a bit slower than the average person. i still had learning to do in ninja gaiden and though i still wouldn't consider it a game i enjoy, i did find brief pleasure in learning it to the point i could no miss it - at least what i'd consider far more entertainment than i'd gotten playing it either time, before.

my greatest, most joyless "hate clear" of all time was fallout 3, which i 100%'d over something like 80 or 90 hours

- - - - -

also, something i want to clarify again, mostly to BIL: i don't think that dynamite batman is an excellent game, and it is certainly notably flawed. i just think it's great - on the lower end, but still, to me, great! my standard is heavily influenced by its presentation. it does not have hyper-refined action or a particularly high skill ceiling, but many of the games i love do not. i would say the ease at which you can do a quick run of this game is a big part of why i'm so fond of it. even a no miss clear comes with what i consider relatively low amounts of practice, but it is not something i usually aim for on my replays. i'm usually happy with a 1cc after a couple plays, and this is under an hour of casual fun.

[BIL]

Good posts, kitten. I don't want to give the impression I'm ignoring you, I'm just exhausted waiting on a fucking signed package as a favour for someone.

I'll keep trying with Dynamite Batman. Maybe a less performance-oriented approach would help, but that might be a leopard/spots affair. For now I'll just say that this video summarises my reaction to st3-1 better than my sleep-deprived brainmeat can (NWS + headphones warning)

[kitten]

i feel like i understand your taste better and would probably say there's a fair likelihood of it being something you might never enjoy, at this rate. it's probably a pretty illustrative game of our different priorities, which is interesting, given how many games we have both shared a high appreciation for. ninja gaiden is, too, though it would be a reverse case.

i have an undying love for sunsoft and their bullshit and it tickles a lot of sensibilities that i like. i feel like some others in the thread may still be able to get a similar kick out of it that i did.

i am slightly more confident you will enjoy batman: tas gb now, though.