Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[FinalBaton]

TRU3 5K1LL5 indeed

[BIL]

Whoa, I'd almost assume it was a TAS/AMV of some sort. Mad skills. Madder than mad.

Much less elaborate, but on the topic of NSMB (Ninja Super Mario Bros), I always loved this particular bit of death-defying technique in service of SMB1's minimal-score run.

[Squire Grooktook]

Super Mario is my favorite Ninja Platformer.

[Vludi]

I'm on the other side of the fence. I prefer the standard beat-em-ups to the single plane brawlers.
I think what makes the good ones kind of scarce, is that a good beat-em-up needs great controls/mechanics in order to be fun to play, even when it is brutally hard. I particularly enjoy games with simple movesets (like, again, Final Fight, SOR, etc).
This kind of simplicity in the moveset, forces the player to really focus on the details of the gameplay/AI in order to survive, and is not obfuscated by flashy moves. If you add pretty much perfect controls on top of that, you have a recipe for a game with a high skill ceiling.
I think it's all about refining one's skill rather than struggling to decide which special/super/flashy move to use.

I agree with you there, a beat 'em up isn't all about huge movesets, factors like the enemy design/AI and their distribution/quantity are as much if not more important. Look no further than Final Fight 3 as an example, it has a bigger moveset that in the end doesn't add much over the core mechanics of the original FF, it still manages to be a much inferior game due to its low challenge, uninspired enemy design and few of them on screen which were the traits of the original game. Dominating the AI is big part of the fun in this genre, and the games with bigger movesets aren't always the most demanding regarding to that.

Regarding to single-plane beat 'em ups I like Spartan X and TNWA. Spartan X and its "followers" (Vigilante, Altered Beast, Bad Dudes etc.) play very differently to belt-scrollers to be considered in the same genre IMO, I dig the simple yet elegant scoring system of Spartan X even if it's a bit unforgiving for multilooping. Ninja Warriors Again is much closer to belt-scrollers in gameplay mechanics since there is huge emphasis in enemy positioning, grabs, combos, spacing and the such, I agree with BIL that the SNES should've focused on that type of games since it struggles with belt-scrollers, shame the Power Rangers Natsume games weren't as technical.

[Sumez]

Check out Duckfists's run of the SMB3 from AGDQ. True skill on display there, and unlike your typical speedrunner, he's a great entertainer, able to effortlessly provide his own commentary while he plays.

I consider myself extremely good at the Mario games, having them ingrained right into my spine since the 80s, but some of these tricks are amazing.

[Sumez]

Where does the relation between single plane brawlers and "huge flashy movesets" come from? That's not what I was getting at at all, quite the contrary. I feel like the gameplay in a single plane brawler is usually simpler and much more tight.
That said, I feel TNWA is a much better example of this than Bad Dudes.

disclaimer: I haven't actually played too much of either. Will add TNWA to my 2017 bucket list as well.

[Squire Grooktook]

Ah his post was probably meant to respond also to mine about my love of late-capcom era movement mechanics

I also do appreciate the simplicity of older games, though being able to move in a way that feels exhilarating will always be my favorite aspect of an action game character.

[kitten]

Things can be good or bad according to standards, and if the standard itself is objective then things can be objectively good or bad according to that standard. If a standard judges runners by their speed alone, and that standard dictates that faster is better, then runners who are faster are objectively better (according to the standard) than runners who are slower. This standard favors short distance runners over long distance runners and is not very useful, but it is 100% objective. Under this standard, a runner who runs 100 meters in 12 seconds is objectively better than a runner who runs 1000 meters in 130 seconds, even if no observer ever compares the two of them. This standard is not inherently more correct than a standard that says slower runners are better or runners who wear green are better, and this does not prevent any of them from being objective standards.

you can say something is objectively better or worse when you define a standard (e.g. "at going the highest speed"), but you must always personally define good, which is what makes it a subjective word. it would be an objective statement to say that "if you define being good at running as going the fastest, this person is the most good," but that's because you're defining it. the word "good" does not become objective, the statement does. you can swap it with the word "bad" in both instances and still have it be an equally objective statement, but it's still a subjective word. any standard or opinion can be phrased into an objective statement that proves you have or are judging something by said standard or opinion, but doesn't change the standard or opinion from being subjective.

going back a sec to my original objection -

It is objectively correct to say that those chaining systerms are good at rewarding player precision and memory.

it's simply not. you cannot measure "rewarding player precision and memory," so you could not even correctly use better instead of good in this instance. it's not how the words work. sumez said "objectively horrible design" on the other page and i just assumed it was hyperbole and didn't bother correcting that, but there straight up ain't such a thing as objectively good or bad. i would probably agree if i were familiar that those chaining systems are good or better than most and i'm willing to take your confidence and experience at value and share in the perception, but it can never be objectively good or bad. you don't need to have objectivity to have authority, however, which i think is what a lot of people on forums seem to get caught up on. color is subjective, for example, but we all agree upon what green is and frequently exhibit authority when we express that.

With that said, I'm still pretty much an intermediate player (if that) at it, but I'm working on it.

how wide is your beat 'em up experience? would you consider this a serious goal? is final fight a favorite game, not just a favorite in the series? sorry if i'm belting too many questions out, just trying to get know your taste/experience level.

Yeah, I hear it was quite the disappointment for kids back in the day, who were expecting 2P coop play, the 3 characters and all the levels.
Still an interesting game though, and plays quite well (would be even better, if not for the slowdown).

final fight guy is one of those super rare snes carts, ain't it? i think that like hagane, it was one of those rental exclusives? maybe? it's cheap as dirt for the sfc, at least

But there are just too few of them. I would love to see some more recommendations aside from The usual Ninja Warriors.
(of course there's Bad Dudes and Crude Buster. Almost forgot about those games, somehow)

i wrote a bit about the first natsume mmpr game a page or so ago. i liked it. ain't no tnwa, but it's a good bit of fun. there's a sequel, too, which seems a lot more refined (and uses a 2nd plane kind of like how revenge of shinobi does).

It might be nostalgia, but SoR2's music is just amazing in my book. I don't listen to chiptunes much on their own, but that is one OST I need on my ipod (wouldn't mind owning the recent vinyl release too).

the aptly named go straight that the game opened with is still one of yuzo koshiro's finest works

I tried Gems briefly, and the level design seemed really flat and uninspired in comparison to MA. UNDERWATER FIGHT SCENE was quickly deployed. 3; (check my PRO REVIEW) I have to revisit at some point, but at the time I concluded I was good with just MA.

has anyone who has played both to completion got anything to say to convince me that mutant armageddon is worth the time of day? i reaaaally didn't like gems to the extent that considering a game based of it to be decent is very alien, and imo it only gets worse after the underwater fight. never finished it, but man, never got the urge to, either.

Not to harsh on limited onscreen enemies too much - Double Dragon II FC is legit one of the most violent, evil brawlers ever. NOT to be confused with the wimpy NES version! Accept no substitute for XTREEM MASTER! Technos = lovers of PAIN

i remember looking at this post before joining, i think. i'll have to try this, some day! last time i played DDIInes i beat it on supreme master and only died once.

which reminds me, there are probably several beat 'em ups i've probably 1cc'd on default settings (almost certain i did this for bare knuckle 1&2) that aren't on my 1cc list, as well as various other games. i used backloggery, and it has a "master" marker (as well as unplayed, unfinished, beaten, and completed markers) that is used to denote special runs. i mark almost all no miss clears with a "master" marker, but rarely mark 1cc's with slightly easier games, especially if it was at default settings. i couldn't remember with a lot of these games in my collection, so i didn't stick 'em on there. bare knuckle might be up for some replay, soon. i always stick to being super boring and playing axel in 2, just because i reaaallly like how chuggy it feels when you get a GRAND UPPAH right on someone's chin.

- - - - - -

and if anyone was wandering where i've been all day, since i've been posting in this thread like crazy the last week and been like a solid 3 pages worth of the posts in the last 14 pages - the ninja warriors again got here today, after pulling some miraculous shit in the mail.

i fucking love it. holy shit, it is so damn exceptionally good. it is aggressively punishing when you fuck up and so easy to work yourself into a corner, but unlike with many other beat 'em ups, i feel like it's actually my own fucking fault when i end up getting chained and pelted on by enemies on both sides. the diverse moveset is completely brilliant and the degree to which you're given options to create space in 4-enemy-gangups feels almost without parallel in cleverness and high skill ceiling.

i initially beat the game as kamaitachi first, with bil's advice he was "easy mode," but after playing him a while, i'm going to have to disagree. i would more aptly describe him as beginner mode, because there are portions of the game where he is at a uniquely shit disadvantage, at least in my opinion. most basic combat is easier because of the speed of his combo, but he lacks in good grabs, which can seriously fuck him over at a few points. he's accessible to newer players more than the other two (he's definitely the best character if you're just mashing like an idiot, and lord knows most players of these games are), but i still feel like the game remains challenging with him. although i like kunoichi even more than kamaitcahi, i must admit that ninja is absolutely my favorite, and by a very significant margin.

he is maybe the hardest character to play, but there is absolutely no substitute in pure satisfaction for sacrificing bosses upon the altar of his vertebrae-annihilating knee, over and over again. some bosses can be deeply satisfying to speed-kill by chaining his dash into a grab and ending it with breaking their spine, and god damn does he ever feel monstrously powerful while tossing goons around. whether he's throwing them single-handed into their comrades or doing full spins before launching them into a crowd, he does it with such an expressionlessly badass style that you can't help but feel a sick joy in just how menacingly unstoppable you are. it is so empowering to just walk forward and automatically grab a chump with your massive hand, and then notice his eyes are already darkened out - his expression gone completely mortified as his thought process moves forward far enough to realize he's unwillingly surrendered to your (complete lack of) mercy.

i seriously weep for the poor fool whose only exposure to this game and ninja's sheer, relentless majesty in brutality is this piece of garbage longplay where the dipshit seems to barely even understand how grabbing works. the player is - to an extremely obvious extent - just fumbling around and heavily abusing save states to make the play seamless. plus, holy shit, the american version seriously seems to replace all the women with those little people with knife hands (why is this a common video game enemy in multiple games???), which is outright unacceptable. they're a key enemy to the variety of the game. for thousands, this is the only time they've seen the game played.

i've already beaten normal and hard with ninja! i've also beaten normal with kamaitachi. haven't beaten with kunoichi, yet, but she seems to be my 2nd favorite and some good fun, herself. i've gotten very close to 1cc'ing it on normal already, too. i've had two separate runs where i've only continued once, and in different spots (one of these on the final boss, which was particularly painful). i've already got the capacity, just need to get the groove. i think i can probably 1cc hard, too. i love ninja's moveset, but i can't find any practical usage for the jump-and-twirl attack. i rarely use that heel kick (down + jump), but it's damn useful at times, and i almost never block, though i probably should get used to that pretty much never do flips, either, he's just too big and slow for them to feel like they could be very useful.

so, anyway, yeah, i love it. i seriously think this might already be something i would consider a 4-star game, which is a rare award, for me. my only big criticisms are that the game is a little bit too long and the sound is just like every other natsume game (very similar sound effects with too much sfc chunk, and too many similar instrument samples for the admittedly very well composed music). if this were my first natsume game, i'd not be bothered, but it is farrrr from my first rodeo and too much of their audio between their sfc games ends up running together. stage 5 boss definitely has the best track

also, grooktook, you got an icon, yay! unlike that mega man x5 track in your shooter, i cannot identify what this is from, however.

[Sumez]

I'm not gonna tell anyone which game has the better soundtrack, but there is no doubt that Under Logic from SOR2 is one of the best video game themes ever created.

[Squire Grooktook]

also, grooktook, you got an icon, yay! unlike that mega man x5 track in your shooter, i cannot identify what this is from, however.

Yeah. Like many of the things that have happened around here lately, me not having one is among the rarest occurrences, actually ^_^

Also it's from a cutscene in Aleste 2 (MSX).

[BIL]

^ I did think that was darling ERINOR-chan. :3

and if anyone was wandering where i've been all day, since i've been posting in this thread like crazy the last week and been like a solid 3 pages worth of the posts in the last 14 pages - the ninja warriors again got here today, after pulling some miraculous shit in the mail.

i fucking love it. holy shit, it is so damn exceptionally good. it is aggressively punishing when you fuck up and so easy to work yourself into a corner, but unlike with many other beat 'em ups, i feel like it's actually my own fucking fault when i end up getting chained and pelted on by enemies on both sides. the diverse moveset is completely brilliant and the degree to which you're given options to create space in 4-enemy-gangups feels almost without parallel in cleverness and high skill ceiling.

Excellently put. Glad you're liking it! Good going with those clears, too.

i initially beat the game as kamaitachi first, with bil's advice he was "easy mode," but after playing him a while, i'm going to have to disagree. i would more aptly describe him as beginner mode, because there are portions of the game where he is at a uniquely shit disadvantage, at least in my opinion. most basic combat is easier because of the speed of his combo, but he lacks in good grabs, which can seriously fuck him over at a few points. he's accessible to newer players more than the other two (he's definitely the best character if you're just mashing like an idiot, and lord knows most players of these games are), but i still feel like the game remains challenging with him.

"Beginner" is definitely a better way to put Kamaitachi - still lots of technique on offer, you just have much easier outs than the other two characters. He's as distinct as they are, too - I love his sneaky crouch-run with optional overhead punisher, and the unrefined brutality of his snapkick pseudo-grapple. *punt*

although i like kunoichi even more than kamaitcahi, i must admit that ninja is absolutely my favorite, and by a very significant margin.

he is maybe the hardest character to play, but there is absolutely no substitute in pure satisfaction for sacrificing bosses upon the altar of his vertebrae-annihilating knee, over and over again. some bosses can be deeply satisfying to speed-kill by chaining his dash into a grab and ending it with breaking their spine, and god damn does he ever feel monstrously powerful while tossing goons around. whether he's throwing them single-handed into their comrades or doing full spins before launching them into a crowd, he does it with such an expressionlessly badass style that you can't help but feel a sick joy in just how menacingly unstoppable you are. it is so empowering to just walk forward and automatically grab a chump with your massive hand, and then notice his eyes are already darkened out - his expression gone completely mortified as his thought process moves forward far enough to realize he's unwillingly surrendered to your (complete lack of) mercy.

Ninja is my videogame BRO 4 LIFE. Ultra high-performance beatdown machine. Even his walk animation exudes calculated brutality.



DOMINATION

NO SPINE IS SAFE

Spoiler

I particularly like how he and Kunoichi aren't mere strong/slow VS fast/weak archetypes. Ninja's attacks actually give him the highest acceleration and top speed of the cast... it's controlling his murderous bulk once in motion, without losing momentum or getting swarmed, that's the tricky part. Kunoichi's primary flaw isn't a lack of raw power (her grapple flurry is actually TNWA's single strongest regular attack, and it's easily chained into from a jumpkick and four slashes) - it's her short reach, making rangier enemies trickier to apprehend. They're a superbly complicated, contrasting pair of characters.

plus, holy shit, the american version seriously seems to replace all the women with those little people with knife hands (why is this a common video game enemy in multiple games???), which is outright unacceptable. they're a key enemy to the variety of the game. for thousands, this is the only time they've seen the game played.

Yeah! :O A game of this quality is worthwhile even in compromised form, but SFC's the only way to go for crowd mixups. Dang, shoulda just put some lycra on 'em if those buns of steel were that objectionable. I'm pretty sure the later "phaser" enemies are female and they're wearing some pretty tight gear! lol, mid-90s vg panic.

i love ninja's moveset, but i can't find any practical usage for the jump-and-twirl attack. i rarely use that heel kick (down + jump), but it's damn useful at times, and i almost never block, though i probably should get used to that pretty much never do flips, either, he's just too big and slow for them to feel like they could be very useful.

His hover spin (jump) isn't too great unmodified, but its dive variant (hold down on the dpad) can be a useful poke/knockdown - it's safe on block too, IIRC, just hold [attack] as it executes. The up variant (hold up) is handy for swatting leaping katanas out of the air. The big dive stomp (reminds me of King from KOF's Surprise Rose) is really satisfying to connect with, but it's so punishable I rarely use it outside of showboating.

my only big criticisms are that the game is a little bit too long

Other than Kamaitachi needing a little nerfing to match the other two, this is definitely my one issue. It's got a relatively long, slow curve for an arcade-style game. Not a disaster by any means - crowd mixups are among its biggest strengths, and it uses the runtime to explore them thoroughly. But it's easy to imagine a shorter, punchier credit - in particular, I think reusing a couple more bosses as rare heavies would've been smart. I could really see st3's stealth assassin spidering down from some air ducts un-announced, showering the fray with grenades, or the spectre of st2's (friggin awesome) killer fireman returning to menace players with his brutally dominating lunges.

Also, very minor, but the st3 boss really needed the crowd support every other one enjoys. His stealth dashes are intimidating at first, but once figured out he's far less exciting than st1+2's. Ala Gun.Smoke (arcade), it's the horde that really make the boss battles. On a purely stylistic note, the green blood irks me a little - however, the game's combat is so wickedly intense, I inevitably process it as a mere hitspark while at the controls. Also, particularly with st7's "Piccolo in Cyber Mankini" boss, it's easy to imagine Banglar's army is rocking some kind of artificial body tech. ;3

These are all fine-tuning quibbles, of course. Totally as it is, this is one of the few games I'm absolutely confident in putting on my desert island list. Endlessly replayable for action gamers of a technically brutal persuasion.

[__SKYe]

Where does the relation between single plane brawlers and "huge flashy movesets" come from? That's not what I was getting at at all, quite the contrary. I feel like the gameplay in a single plane brawler is usually simpler and much more tight.
That said, I feel TNWA is a much better example of this than Bad Dudes.

Ah, this is probably my fault, as after you said you prefered single plane scrollers, I responded that I'm the opposite (I prefer standard beat-em-ups), and went on ramble as to what I consider a good beat-em-up, and touched on the moveset issue.

is final fight a favorite game, not just a favorite in the series?

Yes, Final Fight is my favourite beat-em-up, not just in the series, but in the genre.
This is why (perhaps annoyingly so to everyone else ) I tend to compare similar games in the genre to it.

...would you consider this a serious goal?

Well, let me put it like this. I very much enjoy playing it, and again, hope to eventually being able to get the 1CC. At the same time, I don't see myself playing it relentlessly to the detriment of every other game, in order to achieve that clear.

I don't mean to sound like I lack the drive/guts to clear the game, but I find it more satisfying (and less frustrating) to spend a couple credits at a time consistently (like a few credits every day), and see the results over time, rather than buckle up and just play one game and nothing else.
I did buckle up to finish games before, and do it every so often, and if I'm excited about a game, I'll play it much more than a couple credits (or the equivalent thereof).

how wide is your beat 'em up experience?...

I've played many of them (in this case, by playing, I mean actually spending a couple hours on each to get a decent grasp on it's quality, not playing 5 minutes and call it quits ), ranging from Capcoms/Konami/Data East beat-em-ups, to console ports/exclusives.

But games I 1CC'd are much less.

• Final Fight (SFC) on default difficulty (4/2) as Cody.
  Final Fight One (GBA) on Normal (and no Rapid-Punch) with all characters except Haggar.
  Streets Or Rage/Bare Knuckle 1 on Easy and Normal with all 3 characters
  Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon (MD) on both Easy and Normal with Usagi/Sailor Moon
  Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon R (SFC) with Chibiusa (she's easy mode, though )

A did, however, reach pretty far in several others, and they are games I continue to play frequently (maybe a couple credits a day), and intend to 1CC soon. They are:

• Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon R (SFC) - Can currently reach about the middle of stage 4 (the last stage)
  Streets Or Rage/Bare Knuckle 2 - Can somewhat consistently reach the last boss, but never quite beat him on 1 credit (on Normal, of course). Another on of those that with a bit more practice, I'll get there.
  Shin Nekketsu Kouha: Kunio-Tachi No Banka (SFC) - Should be near the end, though I'm not really sure, as I've never been there before. This one I don't play as often, as its mechanics are really not my favourites, but it's still an enjoyable game. Mad soundtrack too.
  Mighty Final Fight (NES) - Can also reach the final stage, and I'm quite close to the 1CC, should happen in the next few days (hopefully )
  Double Dragon (NES) - Also currently struggling the last stage (stage 4), and sometimes losing the run by falling into a pit. I can currently reach it, losing only a single life (usually on stage 3's Abobo duo), but I've yet to see all of stage 4, so the clear may take a while.

Note that these aren't games I just leave half-beaten, and never properly play the harder parts, it's just that I usually don't have the patience to play through the entire game several times in a row, so I usually ping-pong between them, but still play them regularly.
Just like the Final Fight (SFC) clear the other day, I hadn't played it in a few days, and fired it up to play a credit, and got the clear.

You may be surprised to not see Bare Knuckle 3 here, but that's one I don't think plays as well as the previously games, so although I've played it plenty before, I've yet to attempt a proper clear.
There are a few other like this, that I play every so often, but not going for the clear.

As you can see, I'm pretty much an intermediate player, at best (and in general, not just this genre), but I really enjoy a good beat-em-up.

final fight guy is one of those super rare snes carts, ain't it? i think that like hagane, it was one of those rental exclusives? maybe? it's cheap as dirt for the sfc, at least

Yes, now that you mention, Final Fight Guy was indeed released in the US as a rental-only cart. I completely forgot about this, and that's why I previously said that it was JP only.

... sorry if i'm belting too many questions out, just trying to get know your taste/experience level.

No problem at all.
As for taste, although I have my preferences (both in this genre and every other), I tend to play a little bit of everything, so even if it's a game I don't particularly consider great (but not bad), I usually still give it some time to see if it's worth playing/getting the clear (again, playing here means more than 5 minutes on the 1st level ).
I find that, although first impressions on fresh games are important, if I just take them as representative of a game's worth, I'll end up missing out things that the game only presents later on, or that depend on one's skill level (that a first timer doesn't have).

[__SKYe]

I apologise for the double post, but the previous was already pretty big, and this one will probably be too.

So, today played a credit of Mighty Final Fight (NES), and got the 1CC.
I'm still not too happy with it as, if it weren't for the extra lives won on the bonus rounds, I wouldn't have gotten it. Something to work forward to, I guess.

As usual, some pretty pictures:



Now I'll start with something you are all probably expecting. I think this is the best beat-em-up on the NES.
But seriously, the beat-em-up people usual say is the best on the system, is River City Ransom, and indeed it is very good. It also has the 2P coop, so that makes it *that* much more valuable in the genre. But although I enjoy it, I'm not the best fan of Technos games' mechanics/controls, and 2P only matters if you're not playing for the 1CC.

All 3 characters are playable, but there's no 2P coop.
Also, believe it or not, Capcom managed to put the entire Final Fight moveset into this game, except the last-hit-throw. Even the not-so-famous backjump (doable in the original, but I guess more as an oversight than an actual intended move).
They also put in a special move, sort of like an Hadouken. This move, much like the similar Sailor Moon move, is overall not too useful, as it is very slow to come out.
Now usually, this wouldn't be a problem, as if I don't like a move I wouldn't use it, but in this game, you end up using it accidentally, simply because of it's input.
You can use it (after gaining a few levels, as the game uses an EXP system similar to Double Dragon (NES)) by pressing Attack and immediately pressing forward (at least with Cody, haven't played the other characters yet). The problem is that sometimes you end up using this accidentaly as you quickly turn around to beat an enemy behind you. As it has a very long windup, you normally end up getting hit.
Annoying, but not too bad.

The rest of the game itself, is fantastic for an NES game.
Almost every enemy from the original game makes an appearance here, along with 4 of the bosses (Damnd, Sodom, Abigail and Belger).
The enemies also have pretty much their entire moveset, and I'd say, are even more aggressive than in the original. There are a maximum of 2 enemies on screen at all times, but given the hardware, it isn't surprising.
The bosses also are pretty awesome, and are very fun to fight. They still provide a fair challenge, but unlike the original, where most bosses get ridiculously hard and overpowered, here, they are more mild.

The last boss, in particular, is pretty nice, as it is Belger, but fitted with mechanical parts (and a machinegun/rocket combo). I suppose that the rationale is that he survived the fall from the original game.

The graphics are very nice, and the chibi characters are absolutely adorable.
The music is pretty good too, and the instrumentation always reminds me of the MegaMan games.
The story itself is quite hilarious, and I'd honestly say to give the US versiona try, just so you can understand it, and what the characters say. Honestly, the characters' dialog is the most fun part in the entire series (the ones that have it, at least).
It is even funnier, if you played the original (or are familiar with it's story). As usual, Jessica has been kidnapped, but this time, it isn't to coerce the mayor into corruption, but rather because Belger has fallen in love with her.
Also, when the mayor gets the call (that his daughter's been kidnapped), all the characters are at the Gym, and Haggar immediately accuses Cody.
During the 1st boss, he'll a couple questions, and although they all lead to a fight, he has a different response for each of your answers. There's also the usual talk before fighting the other bosses (much like in Final Fight One (GBA), but more funny), and during one in particular (2nd time versus Sodom), he'll say you look run down, and offer you water. If you accept, your life will be restored (you fight anyway, of course), but if you say no, we'll say something like 'How dare you refuse my gift!' and proceed too fight you.
This is much funnier when playing by yourself.

It's really a fantastic game, and if you even mildly appreciate the genre, you'll love it.

EDIT: Okay, to avoid triple posting, I'll just append this here.

Much like the previous games, I just played a credit of Final Fight Guy (SFC), as Guy, and got the 1CC.



With Haggar however, I think it will take a while to get the clear, as he requires a somewhat different playstyle.
ANyway, onwards to greater things.

[kitten]

Excellently put. Glad you're liking it! Good going with those clears, too.

thanx on my first play, i thought a 1cc might be out of my patience limit, but i've managed to get pretty decent at most of my trouble areas. that pair of stage 6 bosses was a real roadblock, at first, and i feel like you can still get utterly wrecked by them on a good run if you lapse. you have to be -extremely- aggressive about taking them down as ninja (i noticed with kunoichi i could exploit them by sitting in a corner and attacking away from it - a strategy too good for her in most situations). i still feel like that damn slide they do is a bit of unfair attack, though. there's pretty little tell and it covers the majority of the playing field even if they launch it from offscreen, and it frequently interrupts me attacking the other. you can get them in a pretty good 1-2 throw cycle if you're very quick and tenacious, though! this game has got to be a fucking nightmare for timid players. you must abuse everyone in this game like a grab-hungry boss in a shitty quarter muncher would abuse you!

playing as ninja seriously does feel as if you're playing the boss from a much less fair game. you're cruel, relentless, and your moveset has a lot of opportunities for ruining someone's day. this ties so well into the theme of the game, too! you're a machine made for the express purpose of killing with no trace of conscience, and you're out to commit as much murder as possible, only to complete your daunting objective and self-destruct for maximum overkill... it's dark, but it's a real thrill to be so single-mindedly, ruthlessly hellbent on ruining fools. no bullshit sequel bait, either. i've seen many people talk about how much of a cop-out this depressing ending is and how it takes the wind out from under your sails, but i feel like it's thematically perfect. you are a ruthless, emotionless killing machine and you served your purpose. if anything, it places the wind under my sails and gives me way better encouragement to my carnage being as fierce as possible. the light that burns twice as bright, they say!

this game really feels like they got to down brass tacks about what makes their beat 'em up mechanics exciting after the first power rangers and dropped the notion of being kid-friendly for relentless honesty about the satisfaction in thrashing people. the lack of a two player mode, the incredible aesthetic, the tightly refined, technical, and punishing mechanics, the general setting, the emotionless protagonists - on every level, this game is aware of exactly what it's doing, and it's got a master's degree in it. this has easily got to be the best sfc brawler/beat 'em up and one of the best games available on the console. i may like this more than bare knuckle 2 and i could see it possibly being in my top 50 games. it is outright insulting that this is not commonly hailed as one of the sfc's most premier titles. the excellent wild guns eventually got its due, but TNWA still feels like it's seen as either a collector's item or semi-obscure thing.

it brings me a lot of joy that natsume managed to bang out more than one truly excellent title for this console. the sfc has gone from what i once i considered the greatest gaming platform of all time to somewhat of a disappointment to me in knowing how much more interesting stuff was on the pc engine, megadrive, or even famicom at the time. the sfc might arguably have the highest number of quality titles (though i would say that honor belongs to the famicom), but i feel like it has the lowest number of creative or interesting ones. man, natsume are definitely one of the most underappreciated developers of their time. i went into this expecting "pretty good" and had no idea just how much that was downplaying expectation. i think this makes 4 natsume games i've given a 4 star rating to, which i've only dished out to about 100 games. the others would be tail'gator, wild guns, and shatterhand. each of these four games feel like they hit the nail square on the head.

Ninja is my videogame BRO 4 LIFE. Ultra high-performance beatdown machine. Even his walk animation exudes calculated brutality.

there is a genuine sense of weight to it with those stomps! a lot of care and detail went into this game, and i honestly think it's worth playing purely on presentation alone, even if you're total shit at it. this is some of natsume's best sprite & background work, without a doubt. i really like it when a game makes your player character feel genuinely heavy and hard to manipulate, so long as you can learn them like an instrument. big part of why i like assault suits valken, honestly!

Also, very minor, but the st3 boss really needed the crowd support every other one enjoys. His stealth dashes are intimidating at first, but once figured out he's far less exciting than st1+2's. Ala Gun.Smoke (arcade), it's the horde that really make the boss battles. On a purely stylistic note, the green blood irks me a little - however, the game's combat is so wickedly intense, I inevitably process it as a mere hitspark while at the controls. Also, particularly with st7's "Piccolo in Cyber Mankini" boss, it's easy to imagine Banglar's army is rocking some kind of artificial body tech. ;3

i'm wondering if it's possibly technical limitations that has you fight him alone? that invisible warping effect, the animated background tiles, his grenades - might be too much for them to squeeze two goons in on top of that, and one would be kind of pointless - he'd be more like walking ammo to toss at the boss than a crowd control threat. by the way, have i mentioned how brilliant the last boss is for being literally that? absolutely capitalizes on the game's strengths.

along with the green blood irking me a tiny bit as well, i'm also very slightly bothered that a few enemies can throw ninja. they make it very clear through his movement he's heavy, and if you somehow had suspension of disbelief and thought it was only a few hundred pounds, the character select screen is there to remind you he's three-quarters of a ton. sorry, mr. yakuza, you should not be able to toss me over your shoulder like a bag of potatoes, as much as i deserve a chunk of life lost for carelessly getting that close to you. perhaps thematic dissonance is the true punishment for my failure

These are all fine-tuning quibbles, of course. Totally as it is, this is one of the few games I'm absolutely confident in putting on my desert island list. Endlessly replayable for action gamers of a technically brutal persuasion.

i agree. it's a game with a skill ceiling high enough that it seems a severely daunting task to ever reach perfection. so many little variables keep this game highly dynamic and from ever becoming pure routine. bosses i feel like i've fully gotten down will still sometimes kick my ass when i forget how one small thing about them works, or if i improperly carve space through their goons. if this game were just a little shorter, just a little better paced... perhaps with a couple of other tweaks, i think it would be as close to perfectly reaching the goal they set as imaginably possible. they got astoundingly close to the mark, however, and had very lofty goals in mind. still what i would call, as i mentioned earlier, hitting the nail square on the hard, and hitting it hard.

oh, and by the way, i did pull of a 1cc/no miss, today B) as ninja, of course. i've played this during almost all of my free time the last two days, and it's hard to peel myself away. i feel like i might forcibly want to do so, so that i can come back to this in a few months to a year and set a new goal. i've beaten it with all three characters at this point, and would like to get 1cc's with kunoichi and kamaitachi (which both seem extremely doable) on normal before i really dedicate myself to hard. i'm curious, have you 1cc'd hard? it doesn't seem that much more difficult than normal, as they keep the bosses largely the same, just make tougher enemies in a few of their arenas. it's only a little bit more difficult to plain complete, but going for a 1cc on it seems a tad too strenuous given the length of the game and increased opportunity for little fuck-ups to add up to catastrophic results. doable, for sure, probably a long-term goal when i revisit the game, but maybe not the best thing for right now. i should let the game marinate and work up the desire to give it another few days of dedicated playing sometime in the future.



high score at the top. it keeps your score when you hit reset, which makes it baffling that the end screen locks the game, at all. i am quite excited for the power rangers movie game to get here, now (which i was bad and bought after getting too much this month, already). it came out after TNWA (something i had previously assumed wrong on), and while i'm sure it will be nowhere near as technical, i'm just as certain i'll at least get delightfully high quality natsume production values and a damn fun romp.

i'd have never thought ninja would have been my favorite character over kunoichi, in this game. i usually strongly favor women when they're a playable option due to a variety of reasons, but ninja is just so damn satisfying, empowering, and outright exciting to play.

also, fuck, one last aside i wanted to edit in, realizing i hadn't mentioned it - this game has an excellent sense of progression. storming military bases and docks, raiding a penthouse, thrashing your way through the despot's last refuge in a snowy mountain laboratory... all good stuff, all very well tied together. seriously helps add thematic bonus points to game that already speaks the language of pure relentlessness though its mechanics.

Well, let me put it like this. I very much enjoy playing it, and again, hope to eventually being able to get the 1CC. At the same time, I don't see myself playing it relentlessly to the detriment of every other game, in order to achieve that clear.

i think it's very good to pace yourself. going overboard on a game no matter how much of a favorite it is can often have detrimental effects. i probably play gimmick at least one a month, and often two or three times back-to-back when i play it, but i think it would lose something if i ever took it to speedrun levels. i have it at a pretty reliable no miss, at this point (so long as i use potions - i usually restrict myself to not using sub items and risk a couple deaths, usually on the last boss), and there are quirks i have between playthroughs that i feel are slightly unique to me. there are bits where i take my time and just play with the enemies, especially the harmless ones. even contra and rockman 2 (two childhood favorites orbiting proximity of my top 10 or 15 games) have never managed to bring out this level of pure joy in me on such level of replay.

it's good to never push yourself too far! i commend people who are skilled enough at their favorites to push it further into a more demanding routine, but instead opt to keep it a relaxing entertainment. other forums and many friends frequently label me as challenge addicted, but i really and truly believe that i'm not - i just despise when games bore me or put me to sleep.

A did, however, reach pretty far in several others, and they are games I continue to play frequently (maybe a couple credits a day), and intend to 1CC soon. They are:

whoa, no double dragon II? you're depriving yourself, man, that is the premier famicom beat 'em up. strongly recommend it. bil apparently swears by the fc version and its hardest difficulty, but i can personally vouch supreme master on the nes version is quite good, too.

You may be surprised to not see Bare Knuckle 3 here, but that's one I don't think plays as well as the previously games, so although I've played it plenty before, I've yet to attempt a proper clear.

bare knuckle 3 was an immediate disappointment, to me. i just didn't like it at all and didn't even finish it (played the US version with the ramped up difficulty, which may have been a bad idea). i know some people had initially rough experiences with it and end up saying it's mechanically the most tight of the three, but i don't knowwwwww. 1 and 2 were such instant clicks, the first beat 'em ups i ever loved.

So, today played a credit of Mighty Final Fight (NES), and got the 1CC.

good job

Now I'll start with something you are all probably expecting. I think this is the best beat-em-up on the NES.
But seriously, the beat-em-up people usual say is the best on the system, is River City Ransom, and indeed it is very good. It also has the 2P coop, so that makes it *that* much more valuable in the genre. But although I enjoy it, I'm not the best fan of Technos games' mechanics/controls, and 2P only matters if you're not playing for the 1CC.

i cannot let you get away with that first statement until you play double dragon II for a fair shake

also, river city ransom the best? i've typically only seen that said by total rubes. i've never gotten into it and always had the assumption it was something game tourists loved but serious beat 'em enthusiasts only viewed as a novelty.

ALSO ALSO, have you ever played nekketsu koha kunio-kun? it was technos' first-ever beat 'em up, and i've quite enjoyed the famicom version. i've 1cc'd both loops 1 and 2 (which you can pick from the title screen), but the last level of loop 3 was just too much for me imo the mechanics in this game are much tighter than in river city ransom, and without all the annoying distractions taking you out of the pure thrashing. it ain't no double dragon II, but it's way better than what you'd think for such a primordial game. a key part of the game is demolishing faces on downed foes, and it provides quite the addictive risk/reward to take yourself temporarily out of combat to quickly disable someone. prob my 2nd favorite technos fc game. have a guide handy for that last stage, though, it does some maze shit.

it's also a bit of note for allowing you to pummel the shit out of some gnarly women delinquents, too. you unfortunately can't play as a woman, but i like any game that lets its women be as tough as its men. doesn't sexualize them, either, they look some seriously tough fuckers. it ain't no ane-san, though, of course! god damn, i really need to get a copy of ane-san, already.

It's really a fantastic game, and if you even mildly appreciate the genre, you'll love it.

it's on the "get eventually" list, for sure.

[Vanguard]

Super Mario Assault Course

Sugoi!

you can say something is objectively better or worse when you define a standard (e.g. "at going the highest speed"), but you must always personally define good, which is what makes it a subjective word. it would be an objective statement to say that "if you define being good at running as going the fastest, this person is the most good," but that's because you're defining it. the word "good" does not become objective, the statement does. you can swap it with the word "bad" in both instances and still have it be an equally objective statement, but it's still a subjective word. any standard or opinion can be phrased into an objective statement that proves you have or are judging something by said standard or opinion, but doesn't change the standard or opinion from being subjective.

The standard is informed by subjective experience, as is everything that has ever been made by humans, but that does not necessarily mean that subjectivity has been put into the standard itself. To claim that something can be objectively better than something else, but never be objectively good is nonsense. "Better" is a relative comparison of goodness between two things. How can one thing be objectively more good than another if neither can possess objective goodness in the first place?

going back a sec to my original objection -

It is objectively correct to say that those chaining systerms are good at rewarding player precision and memory.

it's simply not. you cannot measure "rewarding player precision and memory," so you could not even correctly use better instead of good in this instance. it's not how the words work. sumez said "objectively horrible design" on the other page and i just assumed it was hyperbole and didn't bother correcting that, but there straight up ain't such a thing as objectively good or bad. i would probably agree if i were familiar that those chaining systems are good or better than most and i'm willing to take your confidence and experience at value and share in the perception, but it can never be objectively good or bad. you don't need to have objectivity to have authority, however, which i think is what a lot of people on forums seem to get caught up on. color is subjective, for example, but we all agree upon what green is and frequently exhibit authority when we express that.

Color is subjective experience derived from objective phenomena, and mankind has used their subjective experience to uncover this fact. If color was not based on some definitive truth, to assert any authority on the matter would be completely unjustified.

The real difficulty with approaching concepts like freedom or fairness (or good) objectively is not that they are inherently subjective concepts, but that they are abstract, and require some interpretation to be applied to real objects and events. This interpretation does involve the use of personal judgment, but it does not inherently prevent standards from being objective. It does prevent them from having a claim to being the one, true, factually correct standard (which is something that I do not believe can exist anyway) but this was never the point. The purpose is not to discover God's absolute truth, but to create standards that are useful in some way, such as to re-evaluate one's own tastes, to better express one's opinions and beliefs to others, to predict someone whether someone else will like something, to guide one's decision making as a game designer or other creative artist, etc.

A good example of this can be found on the first page of this thread, and I should have brought this up right from the beginning because it illustrates the concept beautifully. On the first page there are at least three different standards for fairness against which Ninja Gaiden is compared. First Edmond Dantes claims that the special death penalty on the final boss rush is unfair, and my assumption is that this is because the game is suddenly changing its established rules. Then BIL claims that Ninja Gaiden is fair because the engine, collision detection, level designs, and other factors will never present the player with an unwinnable situation without the player being the root cause behind it. Hagane presents a standard of fairness wherein a game is fair if the player will always be victorious if they do everything correctly, and I think this is similar enough to BIL's definition to consider the two to be the same. Square presents a similar, but slightly different definition: he requires that a hypothetical perfect player should be capable of clearing the game without taking any damage, and without any foreknowledge.

Squire's definition is the only that is even slightly subjective (would this hypothetical perfect player attempt to jump over Jashin's severed head, not possessing foreknowledge of its hitbox, or would they intuit that they can destroy the head before being hit with their TAS-level speed and precision?).

If we accept BIL/Hagane's standard of fairness, then Ninja Gaiden is objectively fair/objectively good at being fair/objectively more fair than games which don't meet that standard - all three mean the exact same thing in this context, that they pass the standard's requirements. Ninja Gaiden objectively, absolutely, undeniably will not deny victory to a player who hasn't made any mistakes. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. I will also say that this standard is a good one (i.e. it is useful) that the majority of game developers try to uphold, though not always successfully, and I bet most of the posters in this very thread would immediately reject a game that does not adhere to that standard. If we accept Edmond Dante's standard, then Ninja Gaiden is objectively unfair/objectively bad at being fair/objectively less fair than games which meet his standard. Ninja Gaiden really does change the established death penalty during its final boss rush. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. Note that it is not a contradiction to say that Ninja Gaiden is both objectively fair in BIL/Hagane's meaning and unfair in Edmond's.

Whether or not one accepts either of these standards as worthwhile is their (subjective!) decision to make. The idea that one can and should use their own judgment to decide which standards are valuable does not make the standards themselves subjective. They are not and were never supposed to be the one absolute truth in the universe.

[Sumez]

I don't feel like Dynamite Batman is an objectively horrible game, it's just a misstep of a game that could have been a lot better. But that knife thrower is one example of a design choice in that game that's absolutely horrible. Objectively. It's not a hyperbole.

I'm not gonna join the "objective vs subjective" debate though. It's getting into the "every non-abstract game is an RPG because you are playing a role" territory.
Of course concepts like "subjective" and "objective" make sense, even if you disagree with how much of an absolute they should be considered. Otherwise they wouldn't be part of the language, so just leave it at that, please.

[BIL]

Excellently put. Glad you're liking it! Good going with those clears, too.

thanx on my first play, i thought a 1cc might be out of my patience limit, but i've managed to get pretty decent at most of my trouble areas. that pair of stage 6 bosses was a real roadblock, at first, and i feel like you can still get utterly wrecked by them on a good run if you lapse. you have to be -extremely- aggressive about taking them down as ninja (i noticed with kunoichi i could exploit them by sitting in a corner and attacking away from it - a strategy too good for her in most situations). i still feel like that damn slide they do is a bit of unfair attack, though. there's pretty little tell and it covers the majority of the playing field even if they launch it from offscreen, and it frequently interrupts me attacking the other. you can get them in a pretty good 1-2 throw cycle if you're very quick and tenacious, though! this game has got to be a fucking nightmare for timid players. you must abuse everyone in this game like a grab-hungry boss in a shitty quarter muncher would abuse you!

The st6 terror twins are a decided spike (naturally, with it being the first and only time you fight a pair of bosses). Their slide is brutal, but also very punishable with Ninja's hover dive. As soon as you see the telltalle hop, get airborne, then clobber them as they rush in. Of course, if the other one is in a position to punish you out of the initial hover, you'll need to improvise. All part of the fun. ;3

A critical bit of info, with all bosses - beware their wakeup invincibility. Compare st1's bruiser to his "regular" lategame counterpart - the former is mortally dangerous to be near on wakeup, the latter's easy prey like any other stage enemy.

no bullshit sequel bait, either. i've seen many people talk about how much of a cop-out this depressing ending is and how it takes the wind out from under your sails, but i feel like it's thematically perfect. you are a ruthless, emotionless killing machine and you served your purpose. if anything, it places the wind under my sails and gives me way better encouragement to my carnage being as fierce as possible. the light that burns twice as bright, they say!

The ending is not only pitch-perfect, it's also a very wise hewing to the original game's script by Natsume. The original NW is a darker, weirder and much more overtly bloody production (check out the sample of screams and gunfire that announce "Daddy Mulk," and Banglar's brutally unvarnished fate). I love how Natsume preserved its keystones in a relatively sunny context, regardless (near-future cityscapes, crumbling in dying throes of civil war, protagonists literally no more than tools of assassination promptly disposed of post-purpose). Stage 3's gunfire-pocked subway trains and storefronts tell quite the story, as do the opulent surroundings of the top brass in Stages 5+6.

i'm curious, have you 1cc'd hard? it doesn't seem that much more difficult than normal, as they keep the bosses largely the same, just make tougher enemies in a few of their arenas. it's only a little bit more difficult to plain complete, but going for a 1cc on it seems a tad too strenuous given the length of the game and increased opportunity for little fuck-ups to add up to catastrophic results. doable, for sure, probably a long-term goal when i revisit the game, but maybe not the best thing for right now. i should let the game marinate and work up the desire to give it another few days of dedicated playing sometime in the future.

Yup! With all three characters, though my current sole recording is very old, and very shaky: Ninja Hard 1CC (also a quick takedown of the st4 boss). Way too much crouch punching in later stages for my liking. Crouching's a false refuge, btw! you'll be insta-knockdowned by any attack, versus taking three hits while standing, more than enough time to get your guard up or seize the enemy in your murderous grip. And unlike Kunoichi and Kamaitachi, Ninja's too big to actually duck under much anyway.

I've been meaning to reupload some better, more experienced runs with Ninja and Kunoichi... despite being able to survive pretty reliably, though, this game is hell on my perfectionism. My gaming time is currently devoted to doing much the same with Alien Soldier, haha (screwy old run of that here).

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

i think this makes 4 natsume games i've given a 4 star rating to, which i've only dished out to about 100 games. the others would be tail'gator, wild guns, and shatterhand. each of these four games feel like they hit the nail square on the head.

Out of curiosity, do you have a list of these games posted anywhere? Given how much you've elucidated about your taste in games, I think it would be interesting to see a list of your favorites.

[kitten]

re: subjectivity/objectivity

this argument going in circles, taking up too much room in the thread, and another post would simply have me repeating myself in slightly differently phrased ways. debates over semantics always go this way! i'm bowing out. i feel like we're just arguing definitions, at this point, despite very little fundamental disagreement over what we mean when talking about games.

i'm also not ready to throw my hat into the ring on debating ninja gaiden's quality, yet i know that wasn't the point of the example, but i've been trying to get a better feel for BIL's taste and trying to express mine so that when we inevitably butt heads over this one, we both get something out of it. we have more or less totally opposed viewpoints, here, despite some fairly similar frame of reference and taste in action games.

The st6 terror twins are a decided spike (naturally, with it being the first and only time you fight a pair of bosses). Their slide is brutal, but also very punishable with Ninja's hover dive. As soon as you see the telltalle hop, get airborne, then clobber them as they rush in. Of course, if the other one is in a position to punish you out of the initial hover, you'll need to improvise. All part of the fun. ;3

my usual strategy is much more ballsy - i open the fight with an immediate blaster, dash over to the left and slam that one straight upon my knee, and then try to get a chain going by doing one and then the other as quickly as possible, with dashes when needed. if they're both up and on one side, it's a good opportunity to wail on them with your nunchaku. one will usually jump to the other side and give you a window to start a slam-chain again. if you time your knee-impalements just right, you can abuse the rather generous i-frames to just alternate the hell out of them. very easy to slip up on this, though.

A critical bit of info, with all bosses - beware their wakeup invincibility. Compare st1's bruiser to his "regular" lategame counterpart - the former is mortally dangerous to be near on wakeup, the latter's easy prey like any other stage enemy.

i thought something was a little suspicious about that lategame version! i have no problem using ninja against him because of how much i can just toss the two goons around to create space, but that fight is a bit more tricky with the other two characters.

The ending is not only pitch-perfect, it's also a very wise hewing to the original game's script by Natsume. The original NW is a darker, weirder and much more overtly bloody production (check out the sample of screams and gunfire that announce "Daddy Mulk," and Banglar's brutally unvarnished fate). I love how Natsume preserved its keystones in a relatively sunny context, regardless (near-future cityscapes, crumbling in dying throes of civil war, protagonists literally no more than tools of assassination promptly disposed of post-purpose). Stage 3's gunfire-pocked subway trains and storefronts tell quite the story, as do the opulent surroundings of the top brass in Stages 5+6.

i think i'll skip around a longplay, sometime soon. i remember watching one a long time ago and then promptly forgetting most of it.

Yup! With all three characters, though my current sole recording is very old, and very shaky: Ninja Hard 1CC (also a quick takedown of the st4 boss). Way too much crouch punching in later stages for my liking. Crouching's a false refuge, btw! you'll be insta-knockdowned by any attack, versus taking three hits while standing, more than enough time to get your guard up or seize the enemy in your murderous grip. And unlike Kunoichi and Kamaitachi, Ninja's too big to actually duck under much anyway.

impressive!

i might watch the full recording another time, but i watched the quick kill. i think i might have gotten a faster one in on him on hard! sloppier and a bit nastier, but quicker. if i stick around this thread long enough i might end up uploading some of my own captures for viewing (still waiting on a capture set-up from a friend). i had a good laugh when you pulled a blaster just to get yourself out of an orbital laser strike, only to get popped in the dome by a jump-kick happy goon. you took a big risk getting locked up during that fight when you walked straight into one of those bearded assholes right after that to grab him, too. he popped you once (him being able to pop you as you walk into him for a grab and tendency to duck at your punches makes him the one of the most annoying basic enemies in the game, imo ) and that nearly set you up for the same guy who kicked your head to do what would have been a very mean grab on ya. ballsy as all hell last 15 or so seconds, you really had his number. i only just discovered the up+y blaster bar consuming combo on my most recent play by accident, ended up fragging him with it

that boss is a right piece of shit if you don't realize that he runs over to pop you with a cane every single time that he gets knocked down. chain grabbing him is really difficult to do, because of this, but not impossible. as soon as he gets up, you can quickly block him, pop him with your first/nunchaku until he blocks, and then quickly move into him (or do a dash into him) and follow it up with a grab. rinse, wash, repeat. enemies will rarely give you the opportunity to do it, but you can get a few in with perfect precision. it's hard enough to get the precision down to be able to do that, even moreso to realize you've got the opening and quickly capitalize on it. i love how constantly opportunities arise and then close themselves off in this game. the constant flux everything is in makes this anything but routine, even after an excellent run or two.

i do not perform crouch-punching particularly often as ninja (mostly because his crouching combo relinquishes him that incredibly valuable bit of range directly behind him), but i find myself doing it a lot with kunoichi because of her less effective grabs and lack of comparative range. it's also easier to get her into positions to abuse this due to that gigantic flip that she gets!

i decided to skip through your LP before posting, anyway (lol), and i noticed some impressive technical execution! you definitely have blocking down in this game much better than i do, but i imagine it's come with a lot of practice and dedication my mind blanks on when to hold that button down all the time, and i can get a little too single-minded about wanting to grab. if i persist, i'll probably get there, but i'm a lot more capricious about switching over to other games than you are. you have much more single-minded dedication than i do. i like to hit goals and then switch things up constantly rather than ever purely dedicate myself to one game for more than a couple days, unless it's some modern time-waster that my idiot brain feels compelled to get wrapped up in (and then subsequently disappointed by).

there are just a few portions where i feel like i have slightly better and more aggressive strategies (like the st6 fight), but since this is an old play, i'm willing to bet you've ironed those out. your play as the game goes on gets WAY more obviously survival-oriented, like in this timestamp where you become mortally terrified of a single jumpy lady, but you've already mentioned that. this behavior always sets in when you're hellbent on a good 1cc and want to get it by any means necessary, i know it well!

having gotten natsume sfc fever, i booted up my copy of wild guns for a quick run. first time in a few years, i believe.



not at all a bad run for how long it's been since my last play. this is especially true considering i died twice in the first stage like a deer caught in the headlights as i tried to relearn how to play. it all came back to me quickly after that, and ended up being a lot of fun. i've never taken the scoring in this game super seriously, but i'll have my bits where i waffle on dedication to pure survivability or score and go into a dangerously long game of chicken with every enemy bullet.

played on normal, btw. i've 1cc'd hard before, as well (i want to say i've no missed normal but don't have explicit notes for it), but my score was just below this - probably because i didn't make it through with as many extends to translate into sweet, sweet bonus points. didn't get to enter my initials as KIT like i usually do because i forgot it even had initial entry and was in the kitchen when i heard the countdown timer.

an aside - anyone here let the demo play of this one loop for a long time? you get funny little bits of dialogue with the different color variations of clint and annie talking to each other. this one's my favorite:

i think this makes 4 natsume games i've given a 4 star rating to, which i've only dished out to about 100 games. the others would be tail'gator, wild guns, and shatterhand. each of these four games feel like they hit the nail square on the head.

Out of curiosity, do you have a list of these games posted anywhere? Given how much you've elucidated about your taste in games, I think it would be interesting to see a list of your favorites.

i do! this should link to my backloggery and all 4-star reviews (which there are 102 of).

by clicking, i promise to have read the below and respect your privacy

there are drop down menus for each entry that may have additional review text or just details on whatever run i did below each entry.

before you go rooting around my backlog, though, please realize this is my own personal thing i keep mostly to myself, and i will be as harsh as i want on games i dislike. i feel like i spend an incredible amount of time ruminating over how to rate a game and where to place it in an arena of quality. my famicom and gb reviews are probably the most thoughtful, as i've got a lot of historical context from research to help me be as knowledgeable as possible about them. they're going to most frequently have additional review text in the drop downs. putting critical thought first with games is probably one of my biggest priorities.

i have had to close my backlog and create a new one due to stalkers, before, and kindly employ anyone who is going to look at this for ill intent or to rubberneck to please just resist the temptation to click. hundreds of hours of work have gone into this thing to have it as a resource for myself. i'm willing to have conversation over must stuff i've written here, but do not confuse that for open season to attack me on differences we have or to force me to explain every little thing.

[soprano1]

i have had to close my backlog and create a new one due to stalkers, before

Wow, seriously?

[kitten]

i have had to close my backlog and create a new one due to stalkers, before

Wow, seriously?

yes. this is not a joke. i'd really rather not get into this, there's some painful subject matter. just, please, if anyone goes checking out my backlog, please do so without intention to rubberneck, etc.

[soprano1]

yes. this is not a joke. i'd really rather not get into this

Sigh, i guess some people don't have anything better to do than harassing others...
Sorry for bringing it up.

[Sumez]

I must be missing something important in Wild Guns, cause I can't beat the second stage in single player.

[Immryr]

kitten, i think you misunderstand what backlog means :O

[kitten]

I must be missing something important in Wild Guns, cause I can't beat the second stage in single player.

omg sumez :O whaaaaat. wild guns is pt easy game, you're definitely missing something.

um, hmm... you can shoot bullets out of the air? shooting while pressing jump does a dodge roll? there's a chomakaimura-esque double jump? standing still and holding down fire builds up a score multiplier, but that's not necessary for survival.

kitten, i think you misunderstand what backlog means :O

i don't. the site is called "backloggery" and your page is referred to as "your backlog." that's what i mean when i say "my backlog." i use it for a lot more than keeping track of what i own that i haven't played, as do most people. that context should clear up my strange usage.

[Sumez]

um, hmm... you can shoot bullets out of the air? shooting while pressing jump does a dodge roll? there's a chomakaimura-esque double jump? standing still and holding down fire builds up a score multiplier, but that's not necessary for survival.

First one I know, but it rarely helps me much. Relying on it is more likely to get me killed.
Dodge roll I know of course (it's impossible to miss), but once again, if there's a lot going on (like the first part of the "second stage" with the big "windmill" things and guys hiding in bushes), it's likely to get me killed as I just roll right into something else. Also I can't seem to figure out what determines the direction in which I roll.
Double jump...... yeah, I didn't know about that one. That's probably gonna help me a bit.
The score multiplier.. I was wondering what caused that. Supposedly it's somewhat what I imagined. Kind of a weird thing to award though, I think.
Also there's the lasso, but I haven't been able to make proper use of it outside bossfights.

Ftr, my experience is based on the recent PS4 release, I haven't played the SNES one for decades, and back then I probably knew about the double jump... I don't remember the game being this hard.

In general though I'm not very good at games

[kitten]

First one I know, but it rarely helps me much. Relying on it is more likely to get me killed.
Dodge roll I know of course (it's impossible to miss), but once again, if there's a lot going on (like the first part of the "second stage" with the big "windmill" things and guys hiding in bushes), it's likely to get me killed as I just roll right into something else. Also I can't seem to figure out what determines the direction in which I roll.
Double jump...... yeah, I didn't know about that one. That's probably gonna help me a bit.
The score multiplier.. I was wondering what caused that. Supposedly it's somewhat what I imagined. Kind of a weird thing to award though, I think.
Also there's the lasso, but I haven't been able to make proper use of it outside bossfights.

Ftr, my experience is based on the recent PS4 release, I haven't played the SNES one for decades, and back then I probably knew about the double jump... I don't remember the game being this hard.

In general though I'm not very good at games

i have the ps4 "remake?" and still haven't played it. been waiting for the mood to strike. not sure how they update things, but i was reassured they (thank god!!) did not turn it into a twinstick set-up. the double jumping is a pretty big deal, because you can perform the second jump at any time after the first. this is really useful for when an enemy shoots a strafing stream of bullets across the floor and you don't realize which way to go until after you've gone airborne.

the roll is determined by which way on the d-pad you're pushing before you hit roll. not sure what determines it if you're not pressing a direction.

the score multiplier rewarding you for standing still & leaving autofire on is pretty clever, imo. strips you of a lot of your advantage of shot upgrades and makes you play chicken with more bullets than you'd ever want to, otherwise. the train level is a good way of practicing this - its first segment (at least on the original game) is one of the easier parts to stay completely still the whole time. you can't even pick up dynamite or bat away a guy or you lose your multiplier, which is a little silly, though. makes some parts way easier to milk points than others.

also, you charge up a vulcan cannon with each bullet shot down. enemy gatling guns can have ALL of their bullets shot out of their air if you position your cursor right, and you can farm up vulcan to tear the shit up out of an area. one of my biggest complaints with the game is how long it takes to charge vulcan, and how hard it is to time it to get it when you'd want it. you often end up popping it at the wrong time when it's most useless, rather than on a boss, when you'd need it.

another note: if your character says "watch out!" that means an overhead projectile is coming down. if you're not on the ground when these land, they can't hurt you. when in doubt, jump. dodge roll can get you killed a lot easier because enemies often use strafing shots and will hit you as you come out of the roll. don't forget that you don't need to commit to a direction to double jump, too - sometimes the best evasive option is to just delay your second part of your jump as long as possible to stay airborne the longest.

[Sumez]

Good tips, but I still don't get why I have such a hard time with this game. I gues because it's not a Ninja Gaiden sidescroller

[Blinge]

Well all that Alien Soldier talk got me in the mood to try... Gunstar Heroes.

Man I wish I had this when I was a kid. It's a blast.
..except for that shmup stage, that kinda sucks.
I'd say my dualshock 2 dpad doesn't help, but I've forgotten what an MD pad actually feels like.

[kitten]

Good tips, but I still don't get why I have such a hard time with this game. I gues because it's not a Ninja Gaiden sidescroller

it... has a little bit of sidescrolling... in some stages

it's pretty relevant when talking about TNWA and kinda hard to fit discussion about this game anywhere else <_<;; i just really like wild guns.


also, BIL, i was looking at your youtube channel. you do some weird lightning strike attack with kaede in kage. how? what the heck even issssss that? i've done multiple no miss/1cc of that game and never done that before lol