Some questions about old consoles (SMS, DC, PSX, Wii, Xbox)

[DiegoPonga]

Hello!

As some of you know, I'm digging around in order to plan a “perfect” setup for my video game room. In order to do so, I need some clarification about a huge variety of things, so please be as comprehensive as you can

Let's try with some of the new doubts I have:

1.) I've seen many cheap RGB cables for Wii. However, in some of these there are some 1-star votes that claim the cable is actually a composite “wrongly wired” over a SCART connector. Do you know where could I find a reliable one? I'm European, by the way (Spanish, to be more specific).

2.) Dreamcast: SCART or D-Sub 15? Does it matter? Is there any difference? Would I be able to run games in the same quality?

3.) Sega MegaDrive has backwards compatibility via PowerBase. Is it a good option? Would it be better to buy a MasterSystem instead of using MegaDrive?

4.) Same as the previous one, but with PlayStation and PlayStation 2.

5.) Lightguns on LCDs: any reliable solution? I would swear there isn't, but I would be pretty interested.

6.) Does anybody know if a PAL mono MegaDrive can be modded into a stereo one?

7.) Nintendo 64 had some differences between PAL and NTSC consoles. Is it impossible/extremely difficult to mod it in order to have a 50/60Hz 240/288p PAL/NTSC console like many European do with SNES and MegaDrive?

8.) Does any PSP model allow the use of a DualShock 3 apart from the PSPGo? Is there any homebrew way to do so?

Thank you very much!

[Dochartaigh]

4.) This is complicated. IMO the PS1 will look the best with RGB cables which means a CRT TV. The PS2 will look the best with composite on a LCD (especially those games which have 480p - God of War is night and day with 480i versus 480p) - UNLESS you're specifically looking for pronounced scanlines.

When a used PS1/PS2 are like $20-50, and the PS1 and PS2 can share a lot of the same exact cables (composite, S-video, and RGB luma SCART/BNC at least), I would just get both. I've also read of some issues playing select PS1 games when playing them on the PS2 - so I always played the games on their correct system to minimize that (especially after the Xbox 360 giving me issues playing original Xbox games I've been weary of this).


5.) No solution for lightguns on LCD’s for systems easier than the Wii? and PS3? which use sensor bars mounted on the LCD TV. If you’re willing to emulate on a computer you have some options available for those earlier systems like NES, SNES, Genesis/Mega Drive, PS1/PS2.


6.) In the USA the original Version 1 of the Sega Genesis can be modded for stereo - but I can’t tell you if the PAL version is the same.

[Fudoh]

1) get an original Nintendo Wii RGB cable.

2) RGB Scart gives you 480i with the majority of games, while you get 480p with a VGA Box through Dsub15.

3) You're missing out on FM sound if you're using the PowerBase converter. Dbelectronics' converter offers FM sound (but no card slot).

4) a handful of PS1 games have timings problems on the PS2, but the vast majority is fine.

5) EMS offered quite usable LCD gun solutions.

6) sure, either you tap the headphone jack on the front or you install a 2nd OP amp.

7) No, an easy 50/60Hz mod isn't available on the N64.

8) No (at least I don't think so).

[Xer Xian]

There is some evidence out there (and in some old discussion in this section) of very minor graphical inconsistencies between PS1 and PS2 running some games (with perfect compatibility on the latter), but it is most likely not enough to warrant buying a PS1 if you don't have one already. Also, it may very well be dependent on the specific PS1 and PS2 revision we're talking about.. all in all it's quite difficult to document with some precision, which is probably why there's no consensus on this yet.

[Guspaz]

IIRC there are some texture issues around the moon in the background in SotN, but the rest of the game is fine.

[TransatlanticFoe]

3.) Sega MegaDrive has backwards compatibility via PowerBase. Is it a good option? Would it be better to buy a MasterSystem instead of using MegaDrive?

There's quite a bit to consider for SMS compatibility - even with the original hardware. Power Base Converters add more on top:

http://www.smspower.org/forums/12093-Li ... esHardware

Note there are also games that don't work with Mega Drive controllers.

Depending on whether you're interested in the titles listed above, you may want to pick up an SMS - but don't forget there are compatibilty issues with earlier models and PAL games running on NTSC systems/60 Hz mods.

[DiegoPonga]

1.)

1) get an original Nintendo Wii RGB cable.

Thank you very much! Didn't know that Nintendo launched an official RGB cable.

2.)

RGB Scart gives you 480i with the majority of games, while you get 480p with a VGA Box through Dsub15.

Are these 480p real? Or just 480i deinterlaced so as it looks like 480p30? Would OSSC do the same job as those Toro VGA boxes?

3.)

You're missing out on FM sound if you're using the PowerBase converter. Dbelectronics' converter offers FM sound (but no card slot).

Well, I didn't use any card game back in the day and now I don't see interesting games that came in that format. I'll take a look to that FM sound converter you talk about, thank you!

There's quite a bit to consider for SMS compatibility - even with the original hardware. Power Base Converters add more on top:

http://www.smspower.org/forums/12093-Li ... esHardware

Note there are also games that don't work with Mega Drive controllers.

Depending on whether you're interested in the titles listed above, you may want to pick up an SMS - but don't forget there are compatibilty issues with earlier models and PAL games running on NTSC systems/60 Hz mods.

Ugh... Wonder Boy in Monster Land is not compatible with MegaDrive 1? Jeez, tha makes it complicated.

For the rest of your comment, I'd swear MegaDrive used to run MasterSystem controllers without any problem. Also, the mods I plan to have are not exactly turning a PAL console in a NTSC one. It's more complicated. It's based on a switch that allows you to select PAL or NTSC modes. Some modders even offer two switches: one for 50/60Hz and aother one for 240/288 lines.

4.)

a handful of PS1 games have timings problems on the PS2, but the vast majority is fine.

There is some evidence out there (and in some old discussion in this section) of very minor graphical inconsistencies between PS1 and PS2 running some games (with perfect compatibility on the latter), but it is most likely not enough to warrant buying a PS1 if you don't have one already. Also, it may very well be dependent on the specific PS1 and PS2 revision we're talking about.. all in all it's quite difficult to document with some precision, which is probably why there's no consensus on this yet.

This is complicated. IMO the PS1 will look the best with RGB cables which means a CRT TV. The PS2 will look the best with composite on a LCD (especially those games which have 480p - God of War is night and day with 480i versus 480p) - UNLESS you're specifically looking for pronounced scanlines.

When a used PS1/PS2 are like $20-50, and the PS1 and PS2 can share a lot of the same exact cables (composite, S-video, and RGB luma SCART/BNC at least), I would just get both. I've also read of some issues playing select PS1 games when playing them on the PS2 - so I always played the games on their correct system to minimize that (especially after the Xbox 360 giving me issues playing original Xbox games I've been weary of this).

IIRC there are some texture issues around the moon in the background in SotN, but the rest of the game is fine.

Well, then for the moment I prefer to have just a PS2. I have a problem with the number of SCART sockets I have — a good switch is tremendously expensive.

5.)

No solution for lightguns on LCD’s for systems easier than the Wii? and PS3? which use sensor bars mounted on the LCD TV. If you’re willing to emulate on a computer you have some options available for those earlier systems like NES, SNES, Genesis/Mega Drive, PS1/PS2.

Sorry, I didn't specified. I was asking for CRT based lightguns, such as the ones used for Duck Hunt or The House of the Dead.

EMS offered quite usable LCD gun solutions.

Oh, that's interesting. Do you know if it may be connected to a PC and then emulate the game? I imagine you could not, but would it be possible to use some of these with an NES?

6.)

sure, either you tap the headphone jack on the front or you install a 2nd OP amp.

That's good news, indeed. Thank you very much!

7.)

No, an easy 50/60Hz mod isn't available on the N64.

Hm. Well, it doesn't matter at all. I mean, were there any N64 game that needed to be played at 60Hz? Super Smash Bros. and Sin & Punishment, maybe?

8.)

No (at least I don't think so).

Ugh... I hoped there would be a homebrew application that let you play with a DualShock 3 on either PSP-2000 or PSP-3000. Vita does allow this, however, doesn't it? But I think Vita hasn't a TV option...

[TransatlanticFoe]

If you plan to mod an SMS anyway, an SMS II might be the way to go then - maximum compatibilty and you don't need to worry about finding the right revision like you do for the original model. I'm not sure if the II works with an FM mod though, if you're interested in that.

It's only a handful of titles that don't work properly with a Mega Drive pad, I don't think I've ever seen a definitive list but I think Alien Syndrome and Bomber Raid are two.

[Xer Xian]

Are these 480p real? Or just 480i deinterlaced so as it looks like 480p30? Would OSSC do the same job as those Toro VGA boxes?

Most of the DC library is real 480p. Some arcade conversions (2d fighters/shooters) are just line-doubled 240p (and a very small minority of them has optional 240p output). You can play them in 480p but you won't have scanlines. If you care about scanlines, the OSSC will add them to pretty much anything, otherwise get a vgabox from beharbros or just a vga cable with embedded scanline generator. Even if you go with the OSSC, you still need some basic vgabox or vga cable to get 480p out of your DC. However, there are a few games which won't work properly through vga no matter what you do. More info here http://retrorgb.com/dreamcast.html

If you plan to mod an SMS anyway, an SMS II might be the way to go then - maximum compatibilty and you don't need to worry about finding the right revision like you do for the original model. I'm not sure if the II works with an FM mod though, if you're interested in that.

Don't know about the FM mod, but the SMS II would need another mod to get RGB, and has no card slot, so no fancy 3d glasses either.

[Dochartaigh]

1.)

No solution for lightguns on LCD’s for systems easier than the Wii? and PS3? which use sensor bars mounted on the LCD TV. If you’re willing to emulate on a computer you have some options available for those earlier systems like NES, SNES, Genesis/Mega Drive, PS1/PS2.

Sorry, I didn't specified. I was asking for CRT based lightguns, such as the ones used for Duck Hunt or The House of the Dead.

EMS offered quite usable LCD gun solutions.

Oh, that's interesting. Do you know if it may be connected to a PC and then emulate the game? I imagine you could not, but would it be possible to use some of these with an NES?

No lightgun works on LCD TV's with a real NES console (or SNES or Genesis, or PS1 console as far as I know)...unless something crazy cool came out in like the last week I missed

You can however emulate some of those systems on a computer and plug in a EMS TopGun, AimTrak, etc. type lightgun with sensor bars on your LCD TV.

[orange808]

Frankly, if we're going to start bumping up the hardware and hacking roms, the SNES is first on my list.

Super R Type, Super Ghouls and Ghosts, and Gradius 3 are a hot mess. I'd also like to see Contra 3 run smooth.

On the N64, games like Body Harvest and Jet Force Gemini got a little chuggy, but I don't have to count the sprites on the screen to judge how fast my character is going to move. Hitting the wall in Super R Type because I misjudged the slow down is a real bullshit way to die. SG&G literally slows to a standstill.

Awful.

[theclaw]

Dreamcast automatically uses 480p60 in compatible games with a VGA cable present. It doesn't notify or ask you at all.

Out of the box, American Master System 1 is the easiest choice. Simple 60hz RGB goodness. If you want to see everything, life gets messy quick. As already mentioned there's FM sound, PAL and/or SMS2 differences, the card slot, SG-1000 games... But I digress. SMS controllers work on a Mega Drive, except both consoles have a peculiar quirk: Japanese region setting is not supported by SMS lightguns and shots won't register right.

1.)For the rest of your comment, I'd swear MegaDrive used to run MasterSystem controllers without any problem. Also, the mods I plan to have are not exactly turning a PAL console in a NTSC one. It's more complicated. It's based on a switch that allows you to select PAL or NTSC modes. Some modders even offer two switches: one for 50/60Hz and aother one for 240/288 lines.

I don't think I recall a 240/288 line switch. Two switches usually means 50/60hz and western/Japanese (changes the language of games).
Of course other kinds of switch are possible. You could switch NTSC/PAL color encoding, or stuff like overclocking.

[ZellSF]

4.) Same as the previous one, but with PlayStation and PlayStation 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... yStation_2
That list is incorrect, because we've found there are titles on that list that do work and titles that aren't on the list that are problematic. No one's made a definite compatibility list but it's pretty evident that the PS2 does behave different than a native PSX and PSX consoles are just dirt cheap so you might as well buy one.

You'll definitely want one for PSIO, a flash cartridge, anyway. Unless you like wear/tear on your optical drives and potentially your game discs.

7.) Nintendo 64 had some differences between PAL and NTSC consoles. Is it impossible/extremely difficult to mod it in order to have a 50/60Hz 240/288p PAL/NTSC console like many European do with SNES and MegaDrive?

Do you have a lot of PAL titles? Otherwise I really wouldn't bother with getting a system to play PAL games. N64 PAL ports are mostly bad and there are only like 4 terrible exclusives. If you only have a few PAL titles I would sell them off and replace them with NTSC versions or a flash cart.

8.) Does any PSP model allow the use of a DualShock 3 apart from the PSPGo? Is there any homebrew way to do so?

You can use RemoteJoyLite, but it requires a PC as an intermediary and might have problems with some games. Might be better for you than buying a dedicated PSP Go for this if you want to only have a PSP 2000/3000 though.

[bobrocks95]

Man, people are obsessed with the PSIO. Are lasers in PS1's that bad or something? I'd much prefer my PSone redesign and my original discs.

[ZellSF]

Man, people are obsessed with the PSIO. Are lasers in PS1's that bad or something? I'd much prefer my PSone redesign and my original discs.

The lasers in PSX consoles aren't especially good, no.

But it's not just about that, it's also about not having to switch discs when you need to play a new game, not needing to worry about wear and tear on your game discs that you can keep safe in storage and not have any disc drive noise.

[bobrocks95]

I guess I'm not the target demographic. I don't like flash carts either. The second I have access to every game in a console's library, I don't feel like playing anything. A list of games on a device doesn't have the same appeal as a shelf of cases.

I will ask how does a game disc get wear and tear unless you're mishandling it?

[FinalBaton]

I guess I'm not the target demographic. I don't like flash carts either. The second I have access to every game in a console's library, I don't feel like playing anything. A list of games on a device doesn't have the same appeal as a shelf of cases.

I will ask how does a game disc get wear and tear unless you're mishandling it?

Man I totally get what you're saying in your 3rd sentence. I'm exactly the same. That's why I don't like emulators either. Flashcarts are super cool products but I can't bring myself to buy one for the reason you evoked

[ApolloBoy]

I don't know what I'd do without my flash carts, they've made me smarter about what games to get since I can try out games on original hardware and they're awesome to have at parties and get-togethers (no more lugging around a bunch of carts or worrying about running out of games to play!).

[FinalBaton]

I don't know what I'd do without my flash carts, they've made me smarter about what games to get since I can try out games on original hardware and they're awesome to have at parties and get-togethers (no more lugging around a bunch of carts or worrying about running out of games to play!).

yeah like I said : flashcarts are awesome. They're just not for me.

[ZellSF]

I will ask how does a game disc get wear and tear unless you're mishandling it?

It doesn't, but you will mishandle discs if you have a lot of discs, because you're human and humans make mistakes.

[DiegoPonga]

Most of the DC library is real 480p. Some arcade conversions (2d fighters/shooters) are just line-doubled 240p (and a very small minority of them has optional 240p output). You can play them in 480p but you won't have scanlines. If you care about scanlines, the OSSC will add them to pretty much anything, otherwise get a vgabox from beharbros or just a vga cable with embedded scanline generator. Even if you go with the OSSC, you still need some basic vgabox or vga cable to get 480p out of your DC. However, there are a few games which won't work properly through vga no matter what you do. More info here http://retrorgb.com/dreamcast.html

So VGA is imperative if you want to play 480p. SCART in Dreamcast allows you 480i, but not 480p, doesn't it?

For those games that are not compatible with RGB and/or VGA, some games can be played with a patched ISO. Am I right?

Now I mention, do you know which is the best way to load games from other regions in a Dreamcast? Did this console support PAL-60?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... yStation_2
That list is incorrect, because we've found there are titles on that list that do work and titles that aren't on the list that are problematic. No one's made a definite compatibility list but it's pretty evident that the PS2 does behave different than a native PSX and PSX consoles are just dirt cheap so you might as well buy one.

You'll definitely want one for PSIO, a flash cartridge, anyway. Unless you like wear/tear on your optical drives and potentially your game discs.

Hm, that's interesting, I'll give PSIO a look! Thank you very much!

However, I still don't see PS1 is a requirement. Although that list may be incomplete or not accurate, I don't see much problems for the many games I would like to collect. And as I have already said, I would love to concentrate systems as much as possible. Not only are they more bulky and expensive, but they consume a SCART slot from my (future) gscartsw, and those are far from being cheap.

Do you have a lot of PAL titles? Otherwise I really wouldn't bother with getting a system to play PAL games. N64 PAL ports are mostly bad and there are only like 4 terrible exclusives. If you only have a few PAL titles I would sell them off and replace them with NTSC versions or a flash cart.

I have 20 games for the N64. All of them are PAL. I would be interested in playing Smash Bros. if it was quite different from one version to another and probably a repro of Sin & Punishment (a repro because I already own it on Wii's VC).

You can use RemoteJoyLite, but it requires a PC as an intermediary and might have problems with some games. Might be better for you than buying a dedicated PSP Go for this if you want to only have a PSP 2000/3000 though.

I would say that RemoteJoyLite is an app that rather uses a PC monitor as the screen and the PSP itself as the controller. What I want is a PSP that can be set in "home mode", and just read the UMD while I play on a TV with a DualShock (or any other pad). I know it's not easy, but I would be surprised if nobody in the console's scene has thought about this before.

[theclaw]

4.) Same as the previous one, but with PlayStation and PlayStation 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... yStation_2
That list is incorrect, because we've found there are titles on that list that do work and titles that aren't on the list that are problematic. No one's made a definite compatibility list but it's pretty evident that the PS2 does behave different than a native PSX and PSX consoles are just dirt cheap so you might as well buy one.

That page is focused on North America. Note the last digit of the model numbers.
Unfortunately, SCEE never released an official compatibility list for PAL PSX games as played on a PAL PS2.

FYI the Japanese version is here.
http://www.jp.playstation.com/info/noti ... 75000.html

[bobrocks95]

Hm, that's interesting, I'll give PSIO a look! Thank you very much!

However, I still don't see PS1 is a requirement. Although that list may be incomplete or not accurate, I don't see much problems for the many games I would like to collect. And as I have already said, I would love to concentrate systems as much as possible. Not only are they more bulky and expensive, but they consume a SCART slot from my (future) gscartsw, and those are far from being cheap.

Have you looked into alternatives to SCART, like using VGA connectors and switches? If you don't already have a bunch of SCART cables it should end up cheaper overall.

[ZellSF]

You can use RemoteJoyLite, but it requires a PC as an intermediary and might have problems with some games. Might be better for you than buying a dedicated PSP Go for this if you want to only have a PSP 2000/3000 though.

I would say that RemoteJoyLite is an app that rather uses a PC monitor as the screen and the PSP itself as the controller. What I want is a PSP that can be set in "home mode", and just read the UMD while I play on a TV with a DualShock (or any other pad). I know it's not easy, but I would be surprised if nobody in the console's scene has thought about this before.

That's incorrect.

With RemoteJoyLite, you use whatever PC controller you want (including DS3 or DS4), you don't have to use a PSP.

You also don't have to use the PC monitor as screen, it still outputs video to the PSP / Component video output.

Only disadvantages compared to the native DS3 support of the PSP Go is that it's a bit harder to set up, you have to have the PC running whenever you want to use it and you won't get dual analog support in that Metal Gear Solid game (I think it was the only game that supported this).

UMD drives, FYI, aren't that reliable and it's really easy to rip your UMDs to a memory stick and play them from there.

[Xer Xian]

So VGA is imperative if you want to play 480p. SCART in Dreamcast allows you 480i, but not 480p, doesn't it?

For those games that are not compatible with RGB and/or VGA, some games can be played with a patched ISO. Am I right?

Now I mention, do you know which is the best way to load games from other regions in a Dreamcast? Did this console support PAL-60?

You can get 480p through scart by using a Toro vga box. You can force some (not all) games to work with vga by using a boot disc or a switch trick. Don't know about patching them, but unless you've got a GDEmu or equivalent, I would advise against using burned discs on the Dreamcast, apparently their drives tend to go bad even with regular use.
There are several boot discs that can bypass the region lock (DC-IE, DC-X, Xploder DC), and of course a well documented mod to make it universal. And, all 6th gen consoles support PAL60.

As for playing PSP games with an external display and controller, I would just get a PSTV with 3.60 or lower firmware to emulate it.

[DiegoPonga]

Have you looked into alternatives to SCART, like using VGA connectors and switches? If you don't already have a bunch of SCART cables it should end up cheaper overall.

Well, the problem is still the same. If I need +10 SCART cables, then +10 SCART-to-VGA adapters and then a +10-slots VGA switch, probably the money I need is still the same.

That's incorrect.

With RemoteJoyLite, you use whatever PC controller you want (including DS3 or DS4), you don't have to use a PSP.

You also don't have to use the PC monitor as screen, it still outputs video to the PSP / Component video output.

Only disadvantages compared to the native DS3 support of the PSP Go is that it's a bit harder to set up, you have to have the PC running whenever you want to use it and you won't get dual analog support in that Metal Gear Solid game (I think it was the only game that supported this).

UMD drives, FYI, aren't that reliable and it's really easy to rip your UMDs to a memory stick and play them from there.

Yes, I know UMDs are shitty as hell. But I like to have some retail copies on my library, so it's not a problem

RemoteJoyLite seems as a good option for me, actually. Do you know if it adds input lag and/or any graphical flaws?

You can get 480p through scart by using a Toro vga box. You can force some (not all) games to work with vga by using a boot disc or a switch trick. Don't know about patching them, but unless you've got a GDEmu or equivalent, I would advise against using burned discs on the Dreamcast, apparently their drives tend to go bad even with regular use.
There are several boot discs that can bypass the region lock (DC-IE, DC-X, Xploder DC), and of course a well documented mod to make it universal. And, all 6th gen consoles support PAL60.

As for playing PSP games with an external display and controller, I would just get a PSTV with 3.60 or lower firmware to emulate it.

[/quote]

Yeah, I know PS2, GC and Xbox offered PAL60, but you know... DC is kind of obscure for me

I don't see which is the best option for a DC, actually... VGA connected to OSSC will ensure 480p for most of games, but many games do not boot if connected through VGA... which is a mess. I doubt I ever buy one of those, but if I do (and there's no option of patching or using any other tool), I can always use an emulator.

So this seems to be the best option for me: Dreamcast → VGA → OSSC → TV. No Toro VGA Box at the moment, I think.

For the PSTV, I don't know, probably for some Vita games I would like to play on TV, but IIRC, PSTV has very bad resolution options and that can cause flaws I would regret.

[bobrocks95]

Well, the problem is still the same. If I need +10 SCART cables, then +10 SCART-to-VGA adapters and then a +10-slots VGA switch, probably the money I need is still the same.

I meant 10 RGB cables with VGA connectors, not SCART cables and adapters. retro_console_accessories should be able to offer them if you ask.
I got an Extron 12-port VGA switch on ebay for around $30.

For the PSTV, I don't know, probably for some Vita games I would like to play on TV, but IIRC, PSTV has very bad resolution options and that can cause flaws I would regret.

If your goal is playing on the TV, for Vita games PSTV is the only option, and for PSP games, it looks much better than a PSP hooked up with component cables.

[FinalBaton]

I like how the PS TV displays Vita games. There, I said it.
I have a 720p TV though so I can't speak for how it looks on 1080p panels (namely the gaming-friendly Sony's), but on my set it looks pretty nice. I set the PS TV to 720p and adjusted the screen size so the scaling plays nice and it looks nice now. Playing Ys Memories of Celceta on big screen with a DS3 controller is an experience so fun that I'm almost crying of joy, lol.

[bobrocks95]

I like how the PS TV displays Vita games. There, I said it.
I have a 720p TV though so I can't speak for how it looks on 1080p panels (namely the gaming-friendly Sony's), but on my set it looks pretty nice. I set the PS TV to 720p and adjusted the screen size so the scaling plays nice and it looks nice now. Playing Ys Memories of Celceta on big screen with a DS3 controller is an experience so much that I'm almost crying of joy, lol.

I will say it looks much better on my 480p display. I guess it's technically not resolving the full resolution but it's much sharper.

[FinalBaton]

Here are a couple of pics :







Here are the links to the full-sized pics, go check them out for better quality :

http://i.imgur.com/UztAxEk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/56fxtXU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UjIR0rB.jpg