PS2 Ibara Impressions

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elvis
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Post by elvis »

CMoon wrote:My copy of Ibara showed up today and I have to say I love it. Definitely harder than Garrega, but the game feels so much like Garrega it is hard (at least for me) not to love it. The bullet patterns and general strategies are 100% raizing, which is exactly what I needed (where Mushi on the other hand virtually brought my love of Cave to an end (sorry for the Mushi lovers out there...))
You would be an almost perfect inverse to me. My copy also arrived today, and I must say I don't like it. Truth be told I've never liked Raizing games (**ducks for cover**). Mushihime Sama and ESP Galuda share highest playtime inside my PS2 of all my titles (shmup and non-shmup), and to me are the epitomy of Cave.

From a third-party perspective I can appreciate the beauty of Ibara (not just graphically either) and it's complete homage to Raizing, but I just don't like that style of game. Tar and feather me for being a Garegga hater if you want, I just don't "get" these games. Of course, I'll still play them. There's plenty of games I've hated on day one, and grown to love 2 years later, but I don't hold high hopes for Ibara based on my previous dislike of all things Raizing.

[edit: Spelling]
Last edited by elvis on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Neon
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Post by Neon »

The Gun Frontier influence stands to reason, Garegga was more or less Gun Frontier mixed with Raiden DX mixed with uber-rank.

@ Elvis: Raizing stuff is pretty much universally hated except among people who like to try to get high scores. Check out the strategy forum and you might gain some appreciation for them (Garegga's much more fun when you know how to destroy the bosses 'correctly,' etc.). I know you like DDP and Garegga is a huge influence on that game. IMO, All Raizing stuff aside from Soukyugurentai/their nonshmups are among the best, including the much-hated shippu mahou and garegga.

We used up all our tar on Bullet "I hate Garegga" magnet, I might have a thumbscrew around here for you though. :mrgreen:
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elvis
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Post by elvis »

Well I'll check out the strategy threads for both Ibara and Garegga and give both a real honest go. For me some of the typically Raizing things like the tiny bullets (I share this annoyance with Raiden games), "catch 'em first or miss 'em" powerups and other nuances just make me want to scream. To me they were all glaring faults that Cave improved on with their "popular" titles.

Bizzarely, I don't mind "Armed Police Batrider". Why I have patience for that game and not Garegga I'll never understand. Although it convinces me that with patience both Garegga and Ibara will grow on me.
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Post by CMoon »

iatneH wrote: I NEVER had this much fun with Garegga, although I can see the tributes and I feel like I should give Garegga another chance... AFTER I have my fun with this game, heh heh heh...
When I do get back around to Garrega, it is going to seem like a walk in the park. Level 1 of Ibara is definitely harder than level 2 of Garrega, which gets back to this notion that many modern shmups have been skipping the easy first level (or two!) and going right to the hard levels. Level 2 of Ibara is no laughing matter! I'm kind of missing Garrega's more gentle appraoch :shock:
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elvis
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Post by elvis »

Neon wrote:The Gun Frontier influence stands to reason, Garegga was more or less Gun Frontier mixed with Raiden DX mixed with uber-rank.
I'd never heard of Gun Frontier until today. God I love these forums. :)

Just played it then, it you can see the likeness to Garegga. MAWS mentions it in the "Trivia" section too:
http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/gunfront
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Neon wrote:Raizing stuff is pretty much universally hated except among people who like to try to get high scores.
I wouldn't say that, but we've already discussed this, heh heh (btw, did you ever get my last PM a week or three back?). If nothing else, I'd say that Raizing's fans, at least around here, are by far the most vocal of any developer's fans, and among the most well-tolerated (though of course I'm out to change all that :twisted:).
We used up all our tar on Bullet "I hate Garegga" magnet, I might have a thumbscrew around here for you though.
So, all this time you've been holding out on the thumbscrews, eh? I feel so cheap! :mrgreen:
elvis wrote:Bizzarely, I don't mind "Armed Police Batrider". Why I have patience for that game and not Garegga I'll never understand.
For one thing, I might guess, IIRC Batrider's (and almost every other Raizing title's, really) rank system is nowhere near as complex or punishing as Garegga's is, so it's more approachable and malleable. Batrider's also got charm and character in spades (though Garegga had it too, albeit moreso in its presentation), with all its hidden characters, extra bosses, various modes/options, etc., perhaps the most extra stuff in a shmup ever (save R-Type Final's hangar, if you count that). Then again, maybe you just like the futuristic setting of Batrider better than the retro styling of Garegga, who knows. It just depends on what aspects of a game you place the most emphasis on.
CMoon wrote:I'm kind of missing Garrega's more gentle appraoch :shocked:
If that's the case, then hoo boy, am I in for it when my copy arrives, heh heh.
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

I don't think of you as a "Garegga Hater", BM (even though you gave me that impression a long time ago).
I think of you as more a... "Garegga Indifferent" ^_-
NTSC-J wrote:The booklet was written by Clover-TAC and judging by the screens, he's always got a full stock of ships. Suiciding is for the weak, I guess.
If TAC is playing with a full stack of ships, he's playing the game the wrong - or the most sadistic - way. ^_-
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Post by zakk »

Icarus wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:The booklet was written by Clover-TAC and judging by the screens, he's always got a full stock of ships. Suiciding is for the weak, I guess.
If TAC is playing with a full stack of ships, he's playing the game the wrong - or the most sadistic - way. ^_-
Or setting the lives/credit to a higher number for demonstration purposes!
(look at all the screenshots in the arcadia strats. which I suspect are the same ones in the book?)
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

zakk wrote:Or setting the lives/credit to a higher number for demonstration purposes!
(look at all the screenshots in the arcadia strats. which I suspect are the same ones in the book?)
I don't know, I haven't got the supplementary guidebook that was bundled with some orders. I've got the scans from some of the Arcadia I have up on my site, maybe someone can compare?
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Post by MSZ »

Just got my copy today, and you guys won't see my scores show up in the hi-score thread anytime soon...I had much easier time in other Cave games, this one is hard.

But again, this is not really a Cave game anyway...
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Post by CMoon »

Regarding the arrange mode, this is one that BM may actually really get a kick out of, since your goal is to abuse the rank until it maxes out, then blow it up! Really, the whole idea is pretty bizarre and creative. That a core component of Ibara and turn it into a scoring device. Wow!

Still not sure which mode I like more since the arcade mode feels more pure, but arranged mode really does have something going on. This is definitely a case where both modes are worth playing and offer something quite different.
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Post by stratos »

I haven't played the game, so I can't say how it coul'd be... I'm preatty sure it feels like Garegga (my current favourite shmup) and for me it's a very good thing... But I'm not here to express my thoughts on the game, but only to participate in the neverending (and neverboring) Raizing style/rank managing discussion :)


I have to say that I always loved shmup type of games, I like them for their difficulty, and for their virtuosistic gamplay characteristics: if you can just one credit, for example, Dodonpachi, you have to master not only some strategies, but, especially, a dodging and corridor calculating technique, that can really impress yourself and is very rewarding.


But I stopped plaiyng them from when I was probably twelve years old and I started again playing them on the last summer (two games, two wonders: Espgaluda, Dimahoo). Then, serching on the internet for information about the third Mahou chapter, I found (on Sheep site) the complete list of Raizing games. Then discovered the existenc of this (beloved) board, and read some impressions on Garegga: the game is really appreciated like a true milestone in vertical shmup history, so I decided to try it. Now, I'm playing Battle Garegga from two month, almost regularly, and I can't even now manage rank and survive decently.


For a shmup novice like me, this shoul'd be frustrating and discouraging, but no, I continue playing this, and really love as my favourite title over Galuda, Dimahoo, DDP series, Thunderforce (what a MASTODONTIC :) masterpiece), Raiden DX... Why?


The answer is: Garegga is not simply a weired rank managing shmup, Garegga is a simply great, old-school-exasperated-gameplay modern-looking Gun & Frontier-tribute game, that let's you to destroy bosses into THOUSANDS pieces, executing real virtuosistic spectacular manuevers, and let's you to really INTERACT with the background, that is not merely a "coloured roll", but a consistent thing that you can "feel" under your weapon, that is not a defensive smart bomb, but, ehm... yes, a weapon; and a weapon to milk points, but also to get immediate fun in spectacular bombings...


So, the game is enjoyable even if you don't mind about rank managing, and is up to you if your encounter with the Nose Lavagghin will be a quick kill or a chirurgical operation... and you will also decide to hoard your bombs for those damned big twin-cannoned tanks, the "millipede" ones and the black bombarders in the Plant, or for the scenery bombing that will give you some extends... and the suicide: you don't really do this to manage rank, it's a weapon itself (eh, Lun?? :)), used to execute some interesting scoring tricks or for regaining bomb fragments. However, I'm not really skilled yet to risk trying a suicide in the game (but I finally can survive 'till stage 5 more consistently than before), and the rank isn't so much hard... probably because I "suicide" randomly out of my will ;)


But the game is yet enjoing, and knowing that when I will be stronger I coul'd milk bosses in those cool ways (but I can yet do some cool things by now, with some bosses) and exploit suicide to get bigger scores (the antithesis of the legendary no-miss philosophy) it's simply exciting. That will probably be the same with Ibara (I can't wait playing it, ordered my copy only today from Yesasia, free shipping option).


And about the rank: it seems to be present also in Raiden, where even not using the autofire, I can see rank jump to hard difficluty in the first stage, but I cannot remember only one person complaining about it, since the game plays great however. And also, a developer coul'd add variety to a game with various selecting ships, all with theire own shot and weapon, or with destructible scenery, hidden medals, acrobatic boss milking, different gameplay-wise level design style... but with the rank he can add even more variety, since in the same stage you will find playing yourself a bit different every strategy you used in the previous. Great.


So, if this is Ibara, I think it's a great game. And I've seen also the same awesome grafics of all the best Cave games and a great power-fusion metal soundtrack, new to the company, that's arranged in a very good way (I'm a metal guitar player from ten years, studied also jazz for two years).


So, if you don't like Garegga and Ibara, I understand, we have different tastes, but if you'd like to understand why the fans do, you shoul'd try to enjoy it for these characteristics, without expecting a complex scoring system, but simply an exasperated old school gamplay with "scenery feeling" and "acrobatic boss milking".


Beside that, I love Cave games as Raizing ones, they are simply great because they are innovative and fresh, giving us new ways to play shmups for scoring, that are also cloned by other companies (Homura, Shiki: very Cave style manics).


But Ibara shoul'd be appreciated in another way.


P.S.: Raizing lovers, keep the Garegga ST thread alive!! :)
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

Nice to see people are enjoying this. I thought that people would be thrown off a bit by the starting difficulty - it gets pretty hairy even from stage 1 - but some have stepped up and taken the game on, with some good results.

Hopefully we'll see a bit more appreciation of the Raizing style of gameplay as a result. ^_-
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Post by it290 »

I got the game yesterday, and I'm liking it a lot. Still trying to figure out which ship type suits me best, and also getting to grips with the rank. The game goes ballistic on you right away if you start going for score, and that can be tough to deal with. The fact that the stages are so short goes a long way towards balancing out the brutal difficulty, though -- the game feels addictive, not frustrating. The rank seems to be much more variable and liquid than Garegga from what I've played.

Also gave arrange mode a couple of tries, but I didn't really get into it. Right now I'm liking the straightforward style of regular Ibara.
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Post by yojo! »

@Elvis: If you don't like Raizing's game, you may still want to play their very first game; "Sorcer Strker" (aka Mahou Daisakusen). the ranking is not anal and it is one of the best Razing game IMO. Leaning more troward old school than any of their other titles.
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Post by CIT »

I don't think there is a "Raizing Style" anyway.

The Mahou series really works differently from Garegga. Then there's Soukyuugurentai, which seems mainly people who don't really like other Raizing games enjoy.

I mean, there is a common thread in all these games, but it's far less tangible than that of Psikyo, Compile or Cave shooters.


Re: Topic

What do people make of the level restart option in arcade mode?
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it290
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Post by it290 »

The level restart seems kind of weird -- I'm not sure if it clears all the variables. I was playing the first level yesterday and I died almost immediately because I wasn't paying attention, so I used the restart. After I restarted, one of the first few enemies gave me the special power-up. I'm not sure what triggers this, but I haven't seen it appear right after starting the game again, so it kind of gave me the impression that the restart wasn't 'safe' to use, even on the first level. Can anyone clear that up?
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Post by tekneekz »

its pretty random. sometimes i kill those spinning copters and they dont drop medals or weapon pods, sometimes they do even with restart i use restart all the time on the first stage.
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Post by stellarola »

Pretty fun game, lots of great explosions and too many load times.
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Post by Herr Schatten »

I got my copy the day before yesterday.

As expected, Arcade mode leaves me as cold as Garegga does. It's just not my type of game. (This has nothing to do with rank whatsoever. I'm not good enough a player to raise rank to a noticeable level in both, I think.) I'm a bit angry, though, that after all the years Raizing still doesn't get some of the basics right. The grey bullets are very hard to see, even with their purple and blue outlines, and the half-transparent flame throwers in stage two are almost invisible. The debris looks cool, no doubt about that, but less would have been more, I think. (At least I'd have preferred an option to turn it off.) Sure, as usual, now the purists will step in and declare that they can see the bullets in Garegga and Ibara "just fine". Well, more power to them, but Ibara Arrange mode shows how little effort it would have been to make the game more accessible to players who don't have dedicated years of their lifetime to learn how to spot Raizing bullets.

Speaking of Arrange mode, I like that one a lot. It's very Cave ( something which I'm normally not too keen on), but it's great fun to exploit rank and use it as a scoring device. Brilliant idea, imo. In Arrange mode, the bullets are easy to see, too. My only complaint is that there is no option to map rapid fire to a seperate button. When holding down the fire button you get the Cave's trademark stream of concentrated fire while at the same time your craft slows down. I guess this is no problem when you are playing the game with a good arcade stick, so you can just hammer away, but button mashing is no option when you're playing with a pad. :?
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Post by CMoon »

Are you playing in tate? I have no difficulty seeing the bullets at all!
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Post by Herr Schatten »

CMoon wrote:Are you playing in tate? I have no difficulty seeing the bullets at all!
Yes I am. Well, of course I can see the bullets too (only the flamethrowers are really nearly invisible), but they are a whole lot less easy to pick out (especially in the middle of a lot of shrapnel) than I'm used to from practically all other games out there. I guess the blur from the filtered graphics doesn't exactly help either. Options to turn the whole bullets pink (like in arrange mode) or at least turn off the debris I'd have appreciated very much.
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Post by freddiebamboo »

Herr Schatten wrote:
CMoon wrote:Are you playing in tate? I have no difficulty seeing the bullets at all!
Yes I am. Well, of course I can see the bullets too (only the flamethrowers are really nearly invisible), but they are a whole lot less easy to pick out (especially in the middle of a lot of shrapnel) than I'm used to from practically all other games out there. I guess the blur from the filtered graphics doesn't exactly help either. Options to turn the whole bullets pink (like in arrange mode) or at least turn off the debris I'd have appreciated very much.
I found it very hard to see the bullets in this at first, but your eyes adjust to look out for them after a couple of days.

I'm sure if you stick at it you'll get used to it.
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Post by stratos »

Raizing bullets: the only Raizing game with the so called "invisibullets" is Battle Garegga. The Mahou games, Souky, Batrider, Bakraid have normal coloured bullets. Yes, the thin ones are a bit difficul to spot at first, but hey: also the second boss in Dai Ou Jou has them, and they flicker even in tate mode killing me everytime with no advice! But I love the game the same :)
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Post by it290 »

its pretty random. sometimes i kill those spinning copters and they dont drop medals or weapon pods, sometimes they do even with restart i use restart all the time on the first stage.
I know they drop out random stuff, but that ways the only time I'd gotten the 'special' power-up from one of those guys.
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Post by Neon »

Sure, as usual, now the purists will step in and declare that they can see the bullets in Garegga and Ibara "just fine". Well, more power to them, but Ibara Arrange mode shows how little effort it would have been to make the game more accessible to players who don't have dedicated years of their lifetime to learn how to spot Raizing bullets.
Purists? Years of my lifetime? Nevertheless I can see them just fine, I win.
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Post by CMoon »

I'm just confused over the bullet issue because I have no problem seeing them, and never had a problem seeing them. On the other hand, I do have a problem seeing the bullets in garrega and use the 'red ball' option. Although I was slightly confused by the flame throwers at first, once I knew what to look for, I also didn't find this difficult. So yeah, I suppose the flame throwers win 1 cheap death out of me, but that's it.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Icarus wrote:I think of you as more a... "Garegga Indifferent" ^_-
Considering how much I've gotten involved in the various Garegga discussions around here since I rolled into town, I don't know if "indifferent" is the word. "Irreverent," maybe. :mrgreen:

In any event, I got my copy yesterday (cheapo shipping, awaaayyy!), and have spent a bit of time with it...if there's one word I might use to describe it from my vantage point, it'd be "intriguing." It's not necessarily even a sense of "like" or "dislike" at this point, since I hafta get better used to the thing, but if nothing else it's got my attention. Keeping in mind that right now I'm mainly playing for "survival," without bothering too much with scoring or rank control, here are my thoughts so far, that I can recall offhand...

As far as the presentation is concerned, my eye isn't trained enough to recognize or react to resolution differences, filters, etc., but regardless I think the game still looks great overall. Yes, it is somewhat icky to see the surface of the water at the very beginning go fuzzy if you move left or right, but other than that I didn't see anything in the presentation to "distract" me in the same way. The programmers obviously have a special relationship with their explosions, and the mass destruction looks fabulous. Even the little details, such as the way the point displays go "wavy" before fading out, are quite nice to behold, and the voices of the bosses are good for some spice too. The music doesn't strike me as anything too special, but frankly few shmup soundtracks do: it does its job.

In terms of bullet visibility, while the setup therein isn't exactly ideal, since I still get tagged with a "what the heck got me?" death from time to time, the brightly-colored outlines ARE an improvement over Garegga's bullets, and thus greatly appreciated. As Schatten, said, though, interestingly enough my first "huh?" death (actually, my very first death when playing, I remember it well) came from a flamethrower; I found its rather dull orange form very tough to make out amidst all the explosions, much more difficult than telling bullets from shrapnel, although in some spots where things get REALLY crowded that can be a pain too.

As far as overall challenge goes, the game is definitely one tough cookie, though it doesn't feel particularly "overwhelming," at least at first...on my first play (again, without bothering with score) I managed to finish the first level without bombing or dying, and also managed to get to Midi without too much trouble...that point, however, is when the game's much-touted sadism began to show through, at least for me. On the whole, though, even when messing around with some of the later areas in Practice mode (which, disappointingly, hasn't been improved since Mushi...and, as was said, the Rank-o-Meter isn't worth the excitement I attached to it), I found the actual stages to be at least mostly manageable even for a player of my skill level (or lack thereof), while the bosses were simply evil incarnate. Lots of nasty out-of-nowhere attacks and very tough patterns, especially if you try to dismantle 'em, which you pretty much have to do to keep your score up if you're playing "seriously."

One small feature I actually liked quite a bit was the "aura flash:" considering how many times I'd been tagged by a stray or hard-to-see bullet in Garegga while daredevil-diving for an item, this little bit of leeway was most welcome. One small thing I DIDN'T like was the apparent inability to "turn off" a special option formation once you've activated it, unlike in Garegga, where simply pressing the "option" button could do that if you activated one by accident. Load times are irritating, but not game-breaking...I do have to wonder why this one would require a decent amount more loading than Mushi, however. The Gallery, as in Mushi, has a good selection of stuff; having to select your ship type in the options menu (and by using a particular controller), however, is a completely unnecessary pain in the kiester. One odd thing I noticed was 2 different difficulty settings in the options menu...anyone know what each one does? And who at Cave thought that making "Midium" the default setting for one of 'em would be funny? :P Offhand, I'm also trying to remember if Garegga "panned" off to the sides of the playing field, like this does...more than once I've been frustrated as a stray popcorn enemy dies off to the side of the visible screen, and drops a medal that I never lay eyes on.

As for Arrange, I honestly didn't find it nearly as "Cave-like" as I expected it to be after reading impressions...the slow-down feature, brighter bullets, smaller hitbox, and other stuff is definitely there, but to me it still felt very much like a Raizing game...the "main" difference to me was that unlike in Arcade mode, where you have to plan carefully throughout the whole game which exact actions to take to keep the rank in check by the end, in Arrange you have to deal with BIG increases in the rank, and you have to deal with them RIGHT NOW, on a regular basis. Also, your cause of rank increase is much more specific this time, and must be manipulated differently for scoring purposes, obviously. Different, but still didn't exactly feel "Cave-ish" to me, though I wouldn't necessarily call it a "detriment." The best part of Arrange, to me, is being able to trick yourself out with all that wonderful destructive firepower without worrying about being penalized for it; one complaint I have, though, is that enemies don't stop shooting even after a big "rose-cancelling" effort, meaning that their bullets can slip unseen under (why UNDER? arrgh!) the big "x300" signs before they fade out.

In short, as I see it, as with Garegga, it still looks great, and is still as frustrating as heck, and is still not for everyone, though definitely something everyone should at least try out. I'm sure that eventually I'll learn more specifics about how the thing works (anyone care to translate the pack-in booklet?) and my views may change somewhat, but for the moment, this is where it stands. And, as usual, any factual errors I've made above, feel free to correct.

Phew. :)
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Post by cigsthecat »

BulletMagnet wrote:One small thing I DIDN'T like was the apparent inability to "turn off" a special option formation once you've activated it, unlike in Garegga,
Press select to cancel a special option formation.

And to those complaining that the bullets need to look like Arrange, no thank you. Bullets in Arrange look tacky and gross. I agree that Garegga's bullets (not all of them) can be hard to see. Complaining about them in Ibara just means you likely need to see an optometrist.

If you want to see invisible bullets go into the options in Arrange and turn the bullet setting to "no color." Have fun with that.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

cigsthecat wrote:Press select to cancel a special option formation.
Ah, thanks, didn't even see the select button listed in the button config menu, so didn't even think to try it, heh heh.
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