4K Blues

[RGBSource]

- HD Fury Linker vs Intergal: As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two is the Intergal has two outputs and also supports 720p upscailng, while the Linker has one output and will passthrough 720p, not upscale. Is that correct? If so, does that mean the Intergal will upscale the OSSC linetriple to 4k?

At my request @rtings tested the upscaling quality of the 4k linker, and the results were not so good (appears to convert to 4:2:0 internally).

https://twitter.com/RGBSource/status/788094146711924736

[RGB0b]

Well that's disappointing. I wonder if the Intergal is the same.

[Fudoh]

The Integral has no upscaling at all. The earlier HDFIV had a "scaling" firmware which allowed upscaling of 480p and 720p.

That the Linker would internally convert to 4:2:0 seems weird. After all the whole 4:4:4 color depth retention is one of the selling points of the unit. Did you email HDF with the same twitter quotes ?

[Hoagtech]

The DVDO Micro is plenty fast, but the ringing issue is difficult to explain.

Strange though, I haven't had the same issues with massive ringing that your earlier screenshots indicated. (on my unit), Although contrast and white balance get a little crazy going through the micro, but I haven't had a lot of time to take screenshots and figure out what's going on with it.

I did use it with the OSSC. it actually seem to work pretty well (line double and line triple all worked fine), although it freaked out when I enabled scanlines.

As for downscaling 4k to 1080p, I can't see how that applies to gaming. Real 4k gaming doesn't exist. (Using an upscaler isn't 4k, Sony.

I'm not sure what you mean now, you mentioned something about using downscaling in your setup. Was that a typo?

Also I'm not sure what you consider to be "real 4K gaming", but there are several games out right now that output in 4K natively, although the PC is the best place for that at the moment. From what I remember hearing the latest tomb raider on the PlayStation 4pro can output in 4k30, I would assume more games will be arriving in the future with that capability.

Hey Blair. Can you elaborate how you got your 3x signal to cooperate with your iscan micro?

Total ossc noob here, I tried enabling tx mode to: hdmi and it gave me the unsupported signal error.

[orange808]

The Integral has no upscaling at all. The earlier HDFIV had a "scaling" firmware which allowed upscaling of 480p and 720p.

That the Linker would internally convert to 4:2:0 seems weird. After all the whole 4:4:4 color depth retention is one of the selling points of the unit. Did you email HDF with the same twitter quotes ?

I am asking HDFury for more information on this issue.

Very interesting. I'll share what I find out.

[orange808]

Ok. While I like the features of the Linker and I appreciate the look of the scaling on my displays, I think RTINGS nailed it.

The responses I got from HDFury were somewhat dodgy. In my experience, people dodge questions when they have something to hide.

I am discouraged about the lack of transparency, but I have to conclude the Linker has 4:2:0 internal processing.

This is particularly discouraging because Kramer, Extron, Calibre, and DVDO have been so helpful in the past.

[Xyga]

Rtings aren't the most knowledgeable among the TV and displays reviewers, and they seem to be more mindful of the potential commercial/legal repercussions of what they write and say (including what's published in the comments).
Can't tell if they're more or less sponsored or if it's just self-censorship by fear of trouble and negative feedback from the public and manufacturers, but I don't trust them like I trust more experienced or more independent reviewers.
There's some things I think they sometimes deliberately avoid saying out loud, or just remain ambiguous, because they know it could hurt some of the products 'ratings' really hard.
To be fair quite a lot of the information they provide is very useful, and they're still rather young so it's normal they'd need more time to refine their formula.
After all I say it myself; choosing displays isn't easy, so actually testing and reviewing them naturally isn't as well.

[AetherSmyth]

Hey Blair. Can you elaborate how you got your 3x signal to cooperate with your iscan micro?

In a similar vein, Blair, I'd be interested to know which systems' linetripled signals you've been able to get to work with the Micro. Your screenshots all seem to be from Genesis/MegaDrive and Super NES, but have you tried it at all with anything else?

[FinalBaton]

Does anyone here own a Sony XBR-X900E 4K set? (known in Europe as KD-XE9005)

Rtings review is making me salivate... lol. These guys are freakin ruthless with their TV reviews and they've given this one an 8.2 score, which is super high coming from them

Pretty damn low input lag at 31.5ms (I think Rtings uses the Leo Bodnar test and report the middle-of-the-screen number? someone correct me if I'm wrong) and seems like it has a very pretty picture for everything, as well as great motion handling (120Hz native panel plus both backlight flicker and frame interpolation can be turned on or off). Only big downside according to them is loss of saturation at an angle. (in my setup noone is sitting that far off-center from the screen so it wouldn't be a huge detterent).

These guys make this TV sound pretty terrific for the price range.
It's been a while since I was hyped for a TV I can afford With this one being $1100 USD and $1500 CAD for the 49 incher, it might just be the ticket for me.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e

[Xyga]

Rtings review is making me salivate... lol. THese guys are freakin ruthless in their TV reviews and they've given it an 8.2 score, which is super high for them.

That's the last thing you should pay attention to when reading their reviews. They'd give a 9/10 to a LCD which uses something like 120Hz PWM for dimming at all levels, which is absolutely laughable. Their test ratings often don't make sense, so the final score isn't reliable at all.

Still, Sony sets are good anyway, better than Samsung in most regards except lag in several cases. The X900 is great in every aspect, a hair under 2 frames of lag is okay if you're not maniacal about it. Smells like their better mid-range.
I'd myself go for it if I wasn't permanently haunted by the LG series 7 OLED.

[FinalBaton]

That's the last thing you should pay attention to when reading their reviews. They'd give a 9/10 to a LCD which uses something like 120Hz PWM for dimming at all levels, which is absolutely laughable. Their test ratings often don't make sense, so the final score isn't reliable at all.

Still, Sony sets are good anyway, better than Samsung in most regards except lag in several cases. The X900 is great in every aspect, a hair under 2 frames of lag is okay if you're not maniacal about it. Smells like their better mid-range.
I'd myself go for it if I wasn't permanently haunted by the LG series 7 OLED.

I read their whole review in excruciating detail Xyga, not just their average score. Come on man, who do you think I am... for fuck's sake. lol

The set does use PWM but in a smaller capacity it seems. Here's what they say about it :
"The backlight does use PWM to dim, but only at very low backlight levels. It flickers at a relatively high frequency of 720 Hz so content appears quite smooth. It is possible to reduce the flicker frequency to 120Hz by increasing the 'Motionflow' -> 'Clearness' slider."

With that low input lag and with how they describe the picture, all areas taken into account? I'm in.
Contrast seems very nice (deep blacks and the panel can get quite bright) and colours seem fine too.

I'm on a budget so I'm very pleased with what that set offers.

[Xyga]

Well to my defence you did write that Rtings are pretty ruthless in their reviews and mentioned the score, there's nothing wrong in saying that's wrong, and I explain why...nothing more man.

Also don't mix my general criticism of their reviews with what I think of the X900, those are completely separate opinions.
Didn't I say I would buy one?

Gah, why everyone misreads and take offense so easily? :p

[FinalBaton]

I think it's the fault of both parties, lol

Your writing style can easily be mistaken for an offensive

And I must have assumed something in the subtext that wasn't there



Let's move on

[Xyga]

Your writing style can easily be mistaken for an offensive

I don't really see where but heh, if you say so, my english's not the best I give you that.

And I must have assumed something in the subtext that wasn't there

That's my entire shmupsfarm story.


Anyway you should know that I'm a Sony TVs fanboy their using flicker-free backlighting accross the majority of the brightness range being one of the major reasons.
When they still do use some PWM it's indeed only in the lowest brightness levels people rarely use, so it's no big deal.

Remains the problem with the way Rtings split the score for motion, it is absurd to me because it doesn't make the PWM part evident enough to the average reader, while in reality low frequency PWM used even at 1/2 brightness is a shame and sets that dim this way should be punished severely in the final score, but their method I think deliberately avoids such scenario to spare brands like Samsung. I believe they're not what we would call 'independent' reviewers.

[FinalBaton]

Your writing style can easily be mistaken for an offensive

I don't really see where but heh, if you say so, my english's not the best I give you that.

Well this seems to happen to you with a lot of different people. And since you're the common denominator...

But yes, I don't doubt that you love Sony sets, and that you think well of this one, now that you've clarified it for me!

[Xyga]

Your writing style can easily be mistaken for an offensive

I don't really see where but heh, if you say so, my english's not the best I give you that.

Well this seems to happen to you with a lot of different people. And since you're the common denominator...

Or we live an era of pretense and abolutes thinking and by refusing to go with the flow I end up marginalized. Whatever.

EDIT: sorry gents that's very off-topic. /

[FinalBaton]

Or we live an era of pretense and abolutes thinking and by refusing to go with the flow I end up marginalized. Whatever.

so you refuse to take any part of the blame for being misunderstood often and by many people?

Wow!

EDIT : let's move on and get back on talking 'bout dem TVs

[Xyga]

Or we live an era of pretense and abolutes thinking and by refusing to go with the flow I end up marginalized. Whatever.

so you refuse to take any part of the blame for being misunderstood often and by many people?

Wow!

that saddens me

EDIT : let's move on and get back on talking 'bout dem TVs

I'll just drop you a pm because yeah

[FinalBaton]

Interesting bit regarding the Sony X900E's handling of 1080p@60Hz signals in Game mode :

It straight up matches 1 pixel of the signal to 4 of the panel's, without any sort of smoothing at all, which is great for keeping sharp pixels from 1080p games (this algorithm is used in game mode ONLY). but what's especially interesting is that the panel has a flexible pixel structure that lends itself really well to this task. Here's a bit of 1080p@60 graphics on the X900E in game mode :





looks like 1080p console games should look very crisp on this set, and so should the Framemeister's 1080p output, which is especially interesting. If the set indeed performs that well, then one might not even need a 4K upscaler for his/her retro console. Just a good ole Framemeister. match that with a good quality picture and this should be a pretty interesting display option. (not saying this is the only display that does this. just pointing out that this set does)

[FinalBaton]

Also regarding the local dimming on the set : looks like it's not the greatest in the world. but at least it has that feature, and performs decently in that regard.

Still pretty interesting at that price range. seems like a nice all around TV

[RGBSource]

http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subact ... 1499845847



LG recently announced a new A7 OLED model - Flat 1080p. I'm not expecting the input lag to be acceptable given LGs previous 1080p OLED TVs, but one can hope! Only announced for Europe and Asia at this time.

Interesting bit regarding the Sony X900E's handling of 1080p@60Hz signals in Game mode :

It straight up matches 1 pixel of the signal to 4 of the panel's, without any sort of smoothing at all, which is great for keeping sharp pixels from 1080p games (this algorithm is used in game mode ONLY). but what's especially interesting is that the panel has a flexible pixel structure that lends itself really well to this task. Here's a bit of 1080p@60 graphics on the X900E in game mode

If it's tolerant to the OSSC's 1080p output, it would be an excellent retrogaming option. Sure the input lag isn't awesome, but it's not horrible either.

[Xyga]

That's just about 200 to 500 bucks away from a B6 which is 4K...

Strange positioning, this isn't how I imagined 'affordable OLED', they should stick with 4K when it comes to 55" and bigger.

[copy]

FinalBaton, have you taken the plunge on the X900E? I'm very tempted by it as well. (I think I'm finally ready to move on from my 34XBR960...)

Does anyone know if the X900E has good OSSC compatibility?

[FinalBaton]

FinalBaton, have you taken the plunge on the X900E? I'm very tempted by it as well. (I think I'm finally ready to move on from my 34XBR960...)

Does anyone know if the X900E has good OSSC compatibility?

Not yet! I'm kinda torned between buying one, or goin with a cheap TCL 43s405 as a band aid to hold me until OLED sets get cheaper

But goddammit I'm so tempted by the X900E.... even though the input lag is at 34ms(which is what I have on my current display. I find it very playable but I can say bye-bye to competitive Street Fighter). It has so much going for it. Just the idea of having non-interpolated integer scaling of 1080p stuff is so exciting to me, because 95% of what I'd watch would be 1080p : cable, my blu ray collection (I'll never replace those with 4k blu rays. there's just no way). And having crisp upscaling of 1080p signals from the OSSC or Framemeister...

I'm curious to see the set's compatibility with the OSSC, too!

[copy]

Not yet! I'm kinda torned between buying one, or goin with a cheap TCL 43s405 as a band aid to hold me until OLED sets get cheaper

But goddammit I'm so tempted by the X900E.... even though the input lag is at 34ms(which is what I have on my current display. I find it very playable but I can say bye-bye to competitive Street Fighter). It has so much going for it. Just the idea of having non-interpolated integer scaling of 1080p stuff is so exciting to me, because 95% of what I'd watch would be 1080p : cable, my blu ray collection (I'll never replace those with 4k blu rays. there's just no way). And having crisp upscaling of 1080p signals from the OSSC or Framemeister...

I'm curious to see the set's compatibility with the OSSC, too!

Yeah, it seems to hit the sweet spot for all the features I'd like (120Hz, HDR, acceptable input lag). I'm really close to going for it.

I know 4K tech is still evolving and I could wait for better, but I've been stuck in the past with 1080i for too long and am dying to join the modern flat panel era. I have a big Blu-ray collection myself and I've already started picking up 4K discs, so that's going to be one of my main uses too.

[FinalBaton]

Yeah, it seems to hit the sweet spot for all the features I'd like (120Hz, HDR, acceptable input lag). I'm really close to going for it.

I know 4K tech is still evolving and I could wait for better, but I've been stuck in the past with 1080i for too long and am dying to join the modern flat panel era. I have a big Blu-ray collection myself and I've already started picking up 4K discs, so that's going to be one of my main uses too.

What makes me really itching for that set is : we're not sure there will(ever?) be other 4k sets with non-interpolated 1080p upscaling. And I NEED that feature

[evil_ash_xero]

It seems like with each TV hardware leap, video games get kicked in the nuts a bit.
Well, for your older (even current) consoles, anyway.

[Lawfer]

Has anyone here spent any time with 4k scalers?

There are none worth being called that

There are if you are ready to spend thousands to get one.

[orange808]

Has anyone here spent any time with 4k scalers?

There are none worth being called that

There are if you are ready to spend thousands to get one.

True, but Xyga wrote that months ago.

The first 4k 4:4:4 @60Hz machines with HDR support started shipping in June of this year: 2017. In addition to 60Hz output, the machine I'm referencing is the first full external procesor that I believe has a real full 4:4:4 internal processing. There are a lot of blatant liars out there manufacturing video equipment.

When Xyga wrote his post, the ceiling was 4k©30Hz--with no real 4:4:4 and no HDR support. Those processors were still using 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 internally and locked at 30 fps. 30 frames per second wasn't worth anybody's time.

There were no 4k options at 60Hz and no support for the latest display tech when Xyga wrote that.

30 frames per second is bullshit; so, Xyga was right. Legit 4k processing didn't exist when he wrote that. That changed in June.

Also, you shouldn't spend thousands because the lag on that shiny new HDR 4k processor is ridiculous.

And, so the search goes on...

[Lawfer]

The first 4k 4:4:4 @60Hz machines with HDR support started shipping in June of this year: 2017.

Model name?