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Are there any comparison pictures of the three new FBX palettes? Just curious to see how they all compare/differ.
Comparisons wouldn't exactly be fair since each palette serves a different purpose (one is for CRT users, another is for digital display users, etc.)Link83 wrote:Thanks for your hard work FBX
Are there any comparison pictures of the three new FBX palettes? Just curious to see how they all compare/differ.
You could set your PC monitor color temperature to 9300K and look at the above images for an approximation.twipley wrote:it is quite nice to see such screenshots, but it might -- also -- be interesting to see comparison shots between what the 'pvm-style' palette looks like, and what it would look like had it been taken under a ‘d93’ (rather than 'd65') screen condition.
I could reproduce that with Blargg NTSC filter. That's where emulators give you more options.Yamato wrote:The Faxanadu intro screen is a great example where the composite "color bleeding" creates new shades of color which aren't really there in the pure signal.
Look at the giant tree. This lighter grey pixels side by side to those brown pixels create an interesting dithering effect. The mixture of dark blue, brown and black pixels on the right side also creates an almost greenish shadow. It results in a somehow "organic" texture.
When you say out of range what do you mean? Do you mean outside of sRGB / rec709 color gamut?FBX wrote:
The two flesh tones just need the green value slightly lowered I believe. The rest of the highlighted entries are colors that fall outside the range of RGB, and so an approximation must be made.
I mean analog RGB range. You know, what NESRGB outputs for example. Some of the colors, like the SMB sky for example, get clipped in direct captures, causing the purple tinge to show up while clipping the blue channel. To give you an idea of what the SMB sky would be like if analog RGB could do the same space, you'd have the blue channel set to something like 325 instead of the normal max 255. Switching between RGB and NTSC, I can actually see the blue channel get much more intense in NTSC, even though I've already maxed out the blue channel in RGB to 255.panzeroceania wrote:When you say out of range what do you mean? Do you mean outside of sRGB / rec709 color gamut?FBX wrote:
The two flesh tones just need the green value slightly lowered I believe. The rest of the highlighted entries are colors that fall outside the range of RGB, and so an approximation must be made.
Could you work in rec2020, prophoto, Adobe RGB, or DCI P3 if you needed a wider RGB color gamut?
nakedarthur wrote:I don't think this is any sort of mystery though is it? It's not over-saturated, NTSC just has a wider range of visible color than RGB.
white = NTSC
black = RGB
All I know for sure is, 255 on the blue channel does not reach the same intensity as the NTSC version. At least a good 25% shy in fact.panzeroceania wrote:I'm wondering if this is a limitation of the NESRGB, or your capture card.
Analog RGB (RS-170 RGB) actually has much more bandwidth than composite color (RS-170A) and if you're using the same monitor, then whatever phosphors that monitor has (P22, SMPTE C, EBU, or proprietary) would be the same, leaving the source device (NESRGB) or capture device (your capture card) as the only remaining bottlenecks for color.
All that said, this should be a solvable problem for RGB on an analog CRT display, having colors clipped should be avoided and fixed, we just need to determine the source of the problem.Y′UV is not an absolute color space. It is a way of encoding RGB information, and the actual color displayed depends on the actual RGB colorants used to display the signal. Therefore a value expressed as Y′UV is only predictable if standard RGB colorants are used (i.e. a fixed set of primary chromaticities, or particular set of red, green, and blue).
Furthermore, the range of colors and brightnesses (known as the color gamut) of RGB (whether it be BT.601 or Rec.709) is far smaller than the range of colors and brightnesses allowed by Y′UV. This can be very important when converting from Y′UV (or Y′CbCr) to RGB, since the formulas above can produce "invalid" RGB values – i.e., values below 0% or very far above 100% of the range (e.g. outside the standard 16-235 luma range (and 16-240 chroma range) for TVs and HD content, or outside 0-255 for standard definition on PCs). Unless these values are dealt with they will usually be "clipped" (i.e., limited) to the valid range of the channel affected. This changes the hue of the color, so it is therefore often considered better to desaturate the offending colors such that they fall within the RGB gamut. Likewise, when RGB at a given bit depth is converted to YUV at the same bit depth, several RGB colors can become the same Y′UV color, resulting in information loss.
To allow images to be displayed by both SVGA and higher-end equipment (notably color systems built by Sun, Apollo, Apple, IBM and others), a standardized list of 216 colors was developed that would be available by default on several major operating systems when the video was operating in a mode that only allowed 256 different colors to be displayed. This helped insure that colors displayed by one system could be identical when a limited pallete of simultaneous colors was available on some other system, and this interoperability was instrumental in making early web browsers work well on different types of computers and operating systems.
The Basic 216 colors represent all numerical combinations that can be produced from the Red, Green and Blue intensity values of hexadecimal 00, 33, 66, 99, CC and FF, beginning at Black (000000), incrementing through each combination, as in 000033, 000066, 000099, 0000CC, 0000FF, 003300, 003333, until finally reaching White (FFFFFF).
For example, FFCC99 is one of the basic 216 colors, while FFCC75 is not, and FFCC75 may not display as expected on a video system with limited color "depth". When directed to display a color other than one of the basic 216, limited video color systems will usually pick the closest of the 216 set and use that value instead, so FFCC75 would probably be displayed as FFCC66.
Even in modern video cards that can display several million different colors at the same time, that may only be true at lower video resolutions, such as 640x480 or 800x600. Increasing resolution to 1600x1200 or other high sizes may reduce color depth of a given video display system back down to 256 possible colors, causing the Basic 216 system to be applied again.
Since it is possible for a web browser to be running on a system that can only display 256 colors that may be trying to display your web page, this can cause problems when a non Basic 216 color is specified. In that event, a darker or lighter color than specified may be displayed instead, and that substitution could cause the luminance rule to be violated on that display, which would make text difficult to read on that system.
A similar problem exists when computer video is converted into NTSC or a MPEG video format. Color depth is drastically reduced by chrominance bandwidth limits in NTSC, and by compression filters in MPEG encoders. Subtle differences in color shades will be completely lost, so using values outside the Basic 216 is usually a futile effort, with FFCC99 and FFCC98 and even FFCC82 all looking identical on a NTSC or HD video display.
The Nt mini is scheduled for delivery on Tuesday. I'll be doing extensive testing of the palettes when it arrives. I'll keep a note about your finding in Ducktales and compare it as well.austin532 wrote:Something I find interesting in Ducktales is the curtains actually have polka-dots on them. Using a stock NES as well as the Original Hardware and Composite Direct palettes they tend to blend in. With the PVM palette though they are much easier to see.
Depends on the goal of the palette. This one is to provide CRT users with a palette that looks as close to identical to a real NTSC NES as possible. My previous effort on this end was "Original Hardware", which was decent but not 'perfect'. This time around, I got to use the Nt mini to fine-tune each color entry until there was virtually no difference when comparing to unmodded NES feed on a PVM.PascalP wrote:Very nice job!
How close is this to your previous round of palettes?
It's impossible. Those 4 colors send a blue voltage higher than the rest of the palette, and well outside the maximum blue range of analog RGB. If you try to mimic the hue + saturation, the colors must be significantly darker compared to the rest of the row. So the only recourse is to approximate an unsaturated version that remains consistent in brightness to the rest of the row.austin532 wrote:What equipment would you need to dial in those 4 colors? You've come so close to 100% this thing it would be a shame to stop now. I've ran into several games that use that color 35 purple while testing out the palettes. The title screen for Deja Vu uses both the 35 purple and 51 light pink.
You'll be pleasantly surprised at how accurate it looks on a PVM if you try the palette out with an Nt mini. Here's the screen in digital RGB using the same palette:austin532 wrote:The title screen for Deja Vu uses both the 35 purple and 51 light pink.