Monitor advice

[andykara2003]

Hi - looking for advice; I want to exchange my BVM-20E1E for a decent 600 line PVM for the less scanlined image. Out of the 600 line PVMs I currently have the chance to swap for a 20L2 or a 20M2md or a 2130qm, all in good condition.

What would be the order or quality if we were to assume they all have the same wear?


I would think that from top to bottom, the 20M2md then the 2130qm and lastly the 20L2.

The 2130qm interests me - it's a better condition one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/sony-pvm-2130 ... Sw44BYm0mH

I know this is an old monitor model but the one I'm looking at has low hours apparently.

My aim is to have a PVM with as mellow scanlines as possible - looking at this 2130qm, the scanlines seem even less prominent than a 20M2 -is this the case? I'd really appreciate advice from anyone who knows these monitors...

[Fudoh]

Why a Sony at all if the scanlines bother you ?

You just can't go from a BVM with a digital chasses to a '86 Sony PVM with analogue geometry controls. The imperfect geometry will drive you crazy. If you really want a PVM with a lower TVL count you should still go for the newest one you can get.

[Zeromemory]

I have a 2130QM, works quite nice. I'm happy with my purchase.

[andykara2003]

Why a Sony at all if the scanlines bother you ?

You're right. I looked at a 600 line Ikegami for this reason but didn't like it - perhaps it was just the state of the monitor but the image looked poor compared to what I'm used to - dull and lifeless. I haven't seen a low-use one so maybe I should look for one - probably very difficult or impossible to find.

I wonder, would you (or anyone) know of any other examples of 600 line shadow mask monitors that tend to pop up on ebay? Apart from the Ikegamis I just can't think of any. The JVCs are all smaller and 750-800 TVL..

[kamiboy]

The L2 has a very nice image. So does the QM if it is related to the 2530, which I once owned. I remember the image of the 2530 most fondly out of all the CRT's that I've owned.

Then again I am not bothered by geometry. I have a A20F BVM currently and if the opportunity to swap it for a low use 2530 presented itself I would be mighty tempted. Those 80's PVM's were sexy as deuce.

[Taiyaki]

Yeah not sure what you're after, the scanlines will still be noticeably thicker than regular crt's. Not happy with your consumer tubes?

[andykara2003]

The L2 has a very nice image

Good to hear - although I've heard that these aren't as nice as the M2s, as they're a budget monitor. Some people seem to like them and some seem to find them disappointing..

Those 80's PVM's were sexy as deuce.

Interesting you say that - I thought I was alone in thinking these look better than the later style..

Yeah not sure what you're after, the scanlines will still be noticeably thicker than regular crt's. Not happy with your consumer tubes?

I've got a couple of great consumer TVs, but I'm at the end of my retro game/kit collecting days and never found a pro monitor that really suited me & thought it would be nice to have one to top off my collection. What I'd really like to find but probably never will is a low-use 20/21" 500/600 line shadow mask monitor in great cosmetic condition. The scanlines will still be thicker than a consumer tube but would be the thinnest that a pro monitor can offer, so the best compromise.

I think I'm just going to let this one go as it looks like it'll never happen and I guess I'm OK with that. My best bet I think would be an Ikegami tm20-17r, but I think the time has passed where you could come across a low-use example of these in good physical condition. The review here: http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthrea ... ew-Thread! by andy251203 made be curious about these.

I might still go and have a look at the 2130qm out of interest - As you say, kamiboy, I like the style of the monitor and the screen image on the photo on that ebay listing I linked to above makes me curious as it seems to have a more 80's style to it for some reason - perhaps less scanlined than the later 600 line PVMs - although that might be just the photo..

[FinalBaton]

My opinion : the 2030/2530 is a bit disappointing. It's not much sharper and doesn't have much better colors than a good Sony consumer set.

But some people like them, so YMMV. If there's one near you, you should still go check it out and see if you like it.



The 20m2 looks terrific IMO. Not too high a line count, but great colors. The 20m4 is sharper but you may find it too sharp.

I highly recommend you check out a 20m2 in person. (although it still might not fit the bill since it's an aperture grill. but the lower TVL count makes the scanlines less pronounced)

[andykara2003]

My opinion : the 2030/2530 is a bit disappointing. It's not much sharper and doesn't have much better colors than a good Sony consumer set.

But some people like them, so YMMV. If there's one near you, you should still go check it out and see if you like it.

Ahh OK thanks for that - I guess the 2130qm comes under the same banner then? In that case, what would you class as the very best of the lower TVL 20/21" monitors (600 line or under), Sony and/or otherwise?

[FinalBaton]

Ahh OK thanks for that - I guess the 2130qm comes under the same banner then? In that case, what would you class as the very best of the lower TVL 20/21" monitors (600 line or under), Sony and/or otherwise?

best lower TVL Sony pro-monitor to me is the aforementionned 20m2/1954q

For the rest : I've never seen any 15 kHz shadowmask pro monitors in person, so I can't say.
I love the picture of arcade monitors though (I think Nanao is the standard?). Don't know if some pro monitors have a similar picture but I'd be all over that.

I also love the picture of the NEC XM29 and it's familly.

[speedlolita]

£600!

HAHAHAHA

Christ, PVMs were neat when you could get one for £20 but £600? Screw that

[Guspaz]

Considering they're both 600 TVL monitors, I don't know why you would buy a 2130qm when the 20L2 is twenty years newer. Low hours only means the phosphors have less wear, a 10 year old monitor like a 20L2 is going to have lots of other stuff in better condition than a 30 year old monitor like the 2130QM, such as capacitors. No contest, I'd think, the 20L2 is decades newer.

Between the 20M2MD and the 20L2, I believe they're from a similar timeframe (maybe the 20L2 is on average 5 years newer), and the 20M2MD has a few advantages over the 20L2. While the 20M2MD lacks an option card slot, it makes up for it by having two separate RGB/YPbPr inputs (the 20L2 has one, and would need an option card installed to get two), and the 20M2MD has both overscan and underscan buttons, while the 20L2 only has an underscan button.

In truth, the underscan and overscan buttons are not actually tied to a specific function, they are really just profile buttons for a different service menu config, so you basically just get two extra profiles instead of the 20L2 only having one. I've actually got the underscan button on my 14L2 doing the exact opposite, zooming in for game boy use.

So, as long as you don't want to use SDI digital input, or use two composite video inputs simultaneously, most of the other specs are identical, and I'd go with the 20M2MD.

[andykara2003]

I love the picture of arcade monitors though (I think Nanao is the standard?). Don't know if some pro monitors have a similar picture but I'd be all over that.
I also love the picture of the NEC XM29 and it's familly.

I've always been interested in getting into arcade monitors but there's the issue if how to house them for console use. Like you say, the 29" Nanao is supposed to be phenomenal and the gold standard but it's a tri-sync so the 15khz image will be *very* scan lined which I don't like. I have an Nec XV29+ Which is amazing for 31khz and I guess is on par with the Nanao but I can't stando it for 15Khz - looks just like BVM scanlines :/
Hantarex do some cased versions like the eq/3 series that look interesting - I'd like to get into the arcade monitor thing but I just don't have time any more. I have a fascination with getting the best image from the N64 & I suspect that the old Hantarex 9110 in Jack's post on this page: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=30 might look great for the N64 as it's a small screen and the dot triads almost eliminate scanlines.

£600!
HAHAHAHA
Christ, PVMs were neat when you could get one for £20 but £600? Screw that

I know - the silver lining is I can just keep my BVM & it'll be worth a fortune in a few years!

I don't know why you would buy a 2130qm when the 20L2 is twenty years newer

Sure, seems obvious now you say it..

the 20M2MD has a few advantages over the 20L2

Apart from the overscan & i/o advantages, isn't the L2 supposed to be a lower screen quality in terms of vibrancy and clarity though? Maybe I'm getting this wrong but I've seen a couple of people say they've been disappointed with them..

[Guspaz]

I've not been disappointed with my 14L2, but admittedly I haven't had many other CRTs to compare to apart from a few 14N6U and a JVC monitors that were all lower quality.

By random coincidence, I put both the 20L2 and 20M2MD on my wiki, despite having barely done any work on it other than an initial bit:

http://sonypvm.wikia.com/wiki/L2_Series
http://sonypvm.wikia.com/wiki/M2MD_Series

The brochures for both of them are on there, and that includes the detailed specs. Most of those specs relating to the tube itself are identical, including the phosphors (both P-22).

I've learned an awful lot since I started that created that wiki, I should really go back there and update it and add more.

[FinalBaton]

Never seen one in person but the pics I see of the Ikegami TM20-17R look damn sexy. Would love to see one with my own eyes.

[Lord of Pirates]

£600!

HAHAHAHA

Christ, PVMs were neat when you could get one for £20 but £600? Screw that

It's like no one stops to consider that these are only getting older and paying more than they went for just a few years ago is nuts.

[andykara2003]

The brochures for both of them are on there, and that includes the detailed specs. Most of those specs relating to the tube itself are identical, including the phosphors (both P-22).

Interesting - looks like the L2 will be worth a look for sure.

Never seen one in person but the pics I see of the Ikegami TM20-17R look damn sexy.

I know - The way the dot triads make the image less scanlined is what attracts me:



If only I could find one that's not hammered - not too likely I think..

[FinalBaton]

I like the pics in this thread http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread. ... 6&page=286 in post #14254, which compare the Ikegami to a BVM.

[Guspaz]

The brochures for both of them are on there, and that includes the detailed specs. Most of those specs relating to the tube itself are identical, including the phosphors (both P-22).

Interesting - looks like the L2 will be worth a look for sure.

Well, as I said, the M2MDU is a bit more featureful, so all else being equal, it might be worth looking at that instead of the L2.

[Taiyaki]

I like the pics in this thread http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread. ... 6&page=286 in post #14254, which compare the Ikegami to a BVM.

Ah yes, I much prefer that look too. It basically looks closer to a consumer tube, I guess that's why I like it.

[kamiboy]

£600!

HAHAHAHA

Christ, PVMs were neat when you could get one for £20 but £600? Screw that

It's like no one stops to consider that these are only getting older and paying more than they went for just a few years ago is nuts.

It's almost like a certain forum made them out to be the holy grail for retro gaming, then suddenly everyone in a collecting obsessed niche with a history for lack of restraint and accompanying spiralling prices wanted to buy a thing of limited supply in a free market economy.

[Lord of Pirates]

£600!

HAHAHAHA

Christ, PVMs were neat when you could get one for £20 but £600? Screw that

It's like no one stops to consider that these are only getting older and paying more than they went for just a few years ago is nuts.

It's almost like a certain forum made them out to be the holy grail for retro gaming, then suddenly everyone in a collecting obsessed niche with a history for lack of restraint and accompanying spiralling prices wanted to buy a thing of limited supply in a free market economy.

I think lack of restraint and patience are more to blame than supply. People paying $500+ for a Framemeister when it can be preordered is a pretty good example. It would've been neat to get a PVM/BVM/etc. in decent shape at some point but I'd rather put hundreds toward an OLED vs buying a CRT with tens of thousands of hours.

[kamiboy]

A good CRT for SD gaming is as good an investment as an OLED for full HD enjoyment in my eye. In fact moreso because CRT's are not being made anymore and increasing in price while OLED technology is in its infancy and falling in price, while improving yearly.

[Guspaz]

Only because of the price of an SD CRT is still so low: over time, we're seeing more and more scalers/doublers/mods with effectively zero latency (like the OSSC, Hi-Def NES, UltraHDMI, GCVideo, NT Mini, etc), and we're seeing HDTV latency measurements get more and more widespread (making it easier to find good low-latency displays).

The cheaper and easier it gets to have your retro consoles work on a modern HDTV with minimal lag, the more and more CRT use will be relegated to a niche: the "good enough" threshold moves farther and farther towards the more hardcore users, and that threshold only really has one direction to go.

We're at the point now where getting a CRT means you really want the aesthetic of a CRT, or you really want latencies below ~30ms, or you really want to save the extra money. But as CRT supply dwindles and price increases, that will be down to two categories, because there will be no money to be saved, and that will reduce the pool of people who go the CRT route.

[andykara2003]

It's almost like a certain forum made them out to be the holy grail for retro gaming, then suddenly everyone in a collecting obsessed niche with a history for lack of restraint and accompanying spiralling prices wanted to buy a thing of limited supply in a free market economy.

Looking through ebay it seems that guy was a one off - they're tending to go for more like £200 on the UK site..

We're at the point now where getting a CRT means you really want the aesthetic of a CRT, or you really want latencies below ~30ms, or you really want to save the extra money.

Depends what your taste is - if you like the clean pixelated look or the clean BVM-style scanlined look then today's scalers are great but if you specifically love the non-BVM CRT image like me, scalers aren't advanced enough by far to emulate that yet. I love the glow of the phosphors, the mask, the bloom etc. It's just a matter of taste but I think quite a few on the retro scene feel the same way.

I think the best current example of CRT aperture grille/shadow mask emulation in hardware is Marshall's Ultrahdmi in retro mode. He did an incredible job with what he had but it still doesn't match up to a nice CRT for me. I think you'd need a really bright 8K TV and an advanced scaler capable of true phosphor emulation to approximate that well - and I don't think that'll be here for a while..

[kamiboy]

Well, if I can't be arsed with emulation for the games, I see no reason why I would ever be arsed to emulate a CRT for playing them on.

[andykara2003]

I actually think I would if there were no CRTs - but I've got enough of them to see me out so I'm happy :)

[speedlolita]

£600!

HAHAHAHA

Christ, PVMs were neat when you could get one for £20 but £600? Screw that

It's like no one stops to consider that these are only getting older and paying more than they went for just a few years ago is nuts.

It's almost like a certain forum made them out to be the holy grail for retro gaming, then suddenly everyone in a collecting obsessed niche with a history for lack of restraint and accompanying spiralling prices wanted to buy a thing of limited supply in a free market economy.

Maybe not in Denmark but PVMs are as plentiful as I've ever seen on UK eBay, all at joke prices. Sad to see really.

[kamiboy]

Well, here in old DK we are so fortunate that we can pick up Bang & Olufsen CRT's for free from the side of the street. Personally I do all my gaming on those sleek beauties, rather than pro monitors which are bulky and a general eyesore when not in use.

In fact it breaks my heart every time I see one of them tossed. If I had the room I would save quite a few from oblivion.

[andykara2003]

Totally agree re. looks - I just love the look of those things, I wish other CRTs had that level of style. We get them pretty cheap here in the UK & I managed to find a really good non-hammered one but didn't like the image at all. It's just a matter a matter of personal preference of course but it was way too soft and dim for me - for my tastes the Loewe E3000/3001 chassis TVs did a better job with those Philips tubes. My favourite of the styles is the Beovision 1 - just amazing (although 100Hz)..