Gamecube vs Wii component output

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Lawfer
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Lawfer »

Kokonoe wrote:
Lawfer wrote:Are those tests from PAL Wiis or NTSC Wiis? Also, whats a "new" Wii? The Wiis with no Gamecube support?
NTSC systems. RVL-101 is what I was deeming "New Wii" whereas "Old Wii" is RVL-001. And yep, RVL-101 lacks Gamecube support.
Which bundle should I pick up to get an RVL-101?
ZellSF
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by ZellSF »

Kokonoe wrote:
Lawfer wrote:Are those tests from PAL Wiis or NTSC Wiis? Also, whats a "new" Wii? The Wiis with no Gamecube support?
NTSC systems. RVL-101 is what I was deeming "New Wii" whereas "Old Wii" is RVL-001. And yep, RVL-101 lacks Gamecube support.
Between Devolution and Nintendont Gamecube support on the RVL-101 is actually starting to look pretty good.

It's not perfect, but if you have a hacked RVL-101 (you really should, it couldn't be simpler to do) and a external HDD then I wouldn't hesitate starting a Gamecube collection.

(that said there's really no point in getting a RVL-101 in the first place)
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andykara2003
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by andykara2003 »

I would be interested in seeing really well set up photo evidence as well but honestly, I collected quite a few PAL & NTSC RVL-101 Wiis and spent quite a bit of time comparing them to the original Wii (both on a Panasonic plasma and a NEC XV29 plus CRT) switching between them in real time with a very high quality component switch and I could see absolutely no difference.

There might be technical differences that show up on test patterns but I would be really surprised if anyone could consistently identify an RVL-101 Wii under normal play conditions by eye on a CRT/HDTV during blind testing.

I really hope this goes somewhere though. Hopefully someone will identify a particular revision/s that has a significant enough quality increase to make a real world difference.
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theclaw
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by theclaw »

How about trying a later Japanese Wii?
Gamecube support never removed in Japan, doesn't necessarily mean its non-GCN-related hardware isn't RVL-101 based.
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andykara2003
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by andykara2003 »

That would be interesting to see - I suspect it won't be different to the USA models but worth a try.

For me, the jump in quality when playing Wii/Cube in prog. scan on a high end CRT blows all of this away anyway. The Wii on my NEC looks like a different console entirely quality-wise.

I'll pick up a 38" Loewe Aconda at some point (with VGA input) as well - that might be the ultimate Wii display - apart from a BVM-D32E1WU which is a little out of my price range at the moment!
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andykara2003
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by andykara2003 »

OK, bit of humble pie being eaten here :oops:

There is a slight visible difference between the RVL-101 and RVL-001 that can be noticed if you know where to look. By eye, I couldn't tell any difference between the Wii dashboards or while comparing the Mario Galaxy intro screens or during gameplay.

The point at which the difference is noticeable is the text on the health and safety warning screen when you first switch the console on. I think this splash screen highlights the difference because the text is white on a black background - and it's noticeably a little more focussed on the RVL-101.

As I say I couldn't see this difference in normal gameplay & I still think it would be hard to pick out the RVL-101 in that scenario - unlike the Gamecube, which I find is noticeably sharper via component.

Another thing I discovered is that this sharper output isn't limited to the RVL-101 Wiis. I have a 2010 RVL-001 (i.e. Gamecube compatible) NTSC Wii (the same year the 101 was released) that is definitely just as sharp as the 101 - so good to know you can have the sharper image along with Gamecube support :) Perhaps this means that any Wii produced later than 2010-ish has the better output (apart from the Wii mini obviously).
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bobrocks95
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by bobrocks95 »

andykara2003 wrote:OK, bit of humble pie being eaten here :oops:

There is a slight visible difference between the RVL-101 and RVL-001 that can be noticed if you know where to look. By eye, I couldn't tell any difference between the Wii dashboards or while comparing the Mario Galaxy intro screens or during gameplay.

The point at which the difference is noticeable is the text on the health and safety warning screen when you first switch the console on. I think this splash screen highlights the difference because the text is white on a black background - and it's noticeably a little more focussed on the RVL-101.

As I say I couldn't see this difference in normal gameplay & I still think it would be hard to pick out the RVL-101 in that scenario - unlike the Gamecube, which I find is noticeably sharper via component.

Another thing I discovered is that this sharper output isn't limited to the RVL-101 Wiis. I have a 2010 RVL-001 (i.e. Gamecube compatible) NTSC Wii (the same year the 101 was released) that is definitely just as sharp as the 101 - so good to know you can have the sharper image along with Gamecube support :) Perhaps this means that any Wii produced later than 2010-ish has the better output (apart from the Wii mini obviously).
I'm sure people would really appreciate it if you'd open up that 2010 RVL-001 Wii and check the motherboard for version/revision information.
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by ZellSF »

And if you have a capture card see if the difference is visible on that.
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by andykara2003 »

I don't, sorry to say - but from my own (rather obsessive) point of view, I can be absolutely positive that there is a marked difference between them. Maybe there's someone else has a card and RVL-101 & RVL-001 Wiis who would be willing to capture this? I have a strong feeling that as regards to the bump in quality, the situation is as simple as something like from a certain point in 2010 (around the production of the first RVL-101s) all the Wiis changed to the new manufacturing process - but who knows, the situation could be more complicated than that. I'm a bit snowed under at the mo but as soon as I can I'll get around to opening it up & taking some photos.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by bobrocks95 »

Ooh, we could get a serial number database going to try and find when they did the revision too.

Might be thinking a BIT ahead.
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Josh128
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Josh128 »

andykara2003 wrote:I don't, sorry to say - but from my own (rather obsessive) point of view, I can be absolutely positive that there is a marked difference between them. Maybe there's someone else has a card and RVL-101 & RVL-001 Wiis who would be willing to capture this? I have a strong feeling that as regards to the bump in quality, the situation is as simple as something like from a certain point in 2010 (around the production of the first RVL-101s) all the Wiis changed to the new manufacturing process - but who knows, the situation could be more complicated than that. I'm a bit snowed under at the mo but as soon as I can I'll get around to opening it up & taking some photos.

This is interesting. Would love to see some screenshots highlighting the difference on the 2010 RVL-001s. I dont much care about the non-GC compatible units, but the ones that are compatible are intriguing...

BTW, how can you tell what year the unit was manufactured, must it be opened up? My Wii seems to have pretty good output, as compared to the GC and shown via photos I posted in the F4500 plasma thread. That said, I obtained it second hand years ago and have no idea what year manufacture it is-- it would be nice to know though.
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Astraea FGA Mk. I
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Astraea FGA Mk. I »

I love topics like these. Thanks for the time and effort everyone!
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Stingray »

Great find on the higher quality Wii's (RVL-101's and some RVL-001's). Has anyone figured out a system for figuring out if an RVL-001 model is one of the better ones?
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Stingray »

Just a quick followup: If we can assume that Wii's made 2010 or later can get closest to GC w/ component, can we assume that all black and red US Wii's can output a sharper image?

Black Wii release dates:
Japan, August 2009
Europe, November 2009
North America, May 9, 2010

Red Wii release dates:
Japan, November 11, 2010
UK, October 29, 2010 (Bundle with Donkey Kong and Wii Remote Plus)
North America, November 7, 2010 (Bundle with New Super Mario Bros. Wii and the Wii Remote Plus)

The goal of course would be to figure out which backwards compatible Wii's (RVL-001) can output an image comparable to GC using official component cables. For me, one of the RVL-101 (newer Wii's) wouldn't be as useful, since they can't play GC games. If you're looking to play Wii and Virtual Console games only, it sounds like RVL-101 is your best bet right now though.
RGB0b
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by RGB0b »

Someone just emailed me this link:

http://www.bitbuilt.net/forums/index.ph ... thread.66/

According to that page, the Wii without Gamecube ports is the RVK and they are pretty much the same as the RVL-CPU-40 and 60, which do have Gamecube ports.
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austin532
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by austin532 »

I wonder which Wii had the RVL-CPU-60 board? The very last ones I remember seeing in stores of the original BC Wii model were the Mario Kart Wii bundles. I assume those have it and image quality would be equal to the RVK-CPU-01 "Family Edition" Wii's which were released shortly after.

Anyone have any pics comparing the two Wii's? The links above seem to be dead.
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Link83
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Link83 »

Sorry to bump this thread, but this topic really interests me, so I was wondering if anyone with a scope had examined the signal quality on all the different Wii DAC/Video Encoder chip revisions?

Nintendo used at least three different DAC/Video Encoders in the Wii, in order they are:-
"AVE-RVL A"
C8391
Manufactured by Ricoh?

"AVE-RVL"
BU9055EKV
Manufactured by Rohm

"AVE-RVL"
BU9955EKV
Manufactured by Rohm
(Perhaps just a die shrink?)

I created this picture to help show the three different Wii DAC's:-
Image

From the really useful Wii revision guide linked previously:-
http://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?th ... thread.66/
It appears that:-
-Some RVL-CPU-01 motherboards came with the "AVE-RVL A" C8391.
-Some RVL-CPU-01 and RVL-CPU-20 motherboards came with the "AVE-RVL" BU9055EKV.
-All(?) motherboard revisions from the RVL-CPU-30 onwards appear to use the "AVE-RVL" BU9955EKV - This includes all colored Wii consoles (Black, Red, Light Blue) all 'Family Editions' (Model RVL-101) and all Wii Mini's (Model RVL-201) (Obviously this could vary depending on if the factories had left over stock of the older DAC chips, but based on the chip production/batch dates this seems unlikely)

Currently the only way to know which chip your Wii uses is to take it apart, but perhaps there is the possibility this can be checked using homebrew software? (Much like the CPU, GPU and drive revisions can be queried) Especially since the DAC communicates through I2C:-
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Hardware/AV_Encoder
http://www.gc-linux.org/wiki/AVE-RVL

With this information it would be great if someone could examine/compare all three chips with a scope to find the one with the highest quality YPbPr output.

It would also be interesting to know if any of the SMD components after the chips output pins have a detrimental effect on the signal quality, in particular the ESD(?) components near the AV Multi Out Socket:-
Image

These components could easily be bypassed/removed if necessary (Although theres a risk of ESD damage without them, I cant imagine many people here are constantly swapping their cables and touching the connectors!)

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help! :)
Last edited by Link83 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:55 am, edited 6 times in total.
Ikaruga11
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Ikaruga11 »

I am also interested in this. Any modding that can be done to improve the YPbPr signal quality?
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bobrocks95
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by bobrocks95 »

In the time since this thread was made, Unseen has adapted his GCVideo project to work with the Wii as well.

Maybe he can chip in on whether the Wii's slightly blurry output is DAC-related, or if it's inherent in the generated video? :mrgreen:
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Unseen »

bobrocks95 wrote:Maybe he can chip in on whether the Wii's slightly blurry output is DAC-related, or if it's inherent in the generated video? :mrgreen:
I can't comment on that, the only reason I had an analog cable connected to my Dev-Wii at all was to enable the 480p modes before I had a wire for that in place.
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Image

There are a total of eight documented hardware revisions for the Wii. You can easily figure out what hardware revision your Wii has by unscrewing and removing the RTC battery tray as pictured below. (note: these are not my pictures; see the link to gc-forever below for the source)

Image
If you can't remove the screw to check, such as when purchasing a wii online, you can ensure you get a 4 layer die shrunk (40 or 60) by purchasing a wii that has gamecube controller ports and isn't white. You can get a revision 40 or 60 from a white shell, but you will not find a revision 01, 20, or 30 in a red, black, or light blue wii. So again, buying a wii that isn't in a white shell ensures that you get one that is efficient and easier to cut.
If this information is true, it means that white RVL-001s can have any RVL hardware revision from CPU-01 to CPU-60. It also means that ALL black, red and light blue RVL-001 (released in 2010 and later) use either a CPU-40 or CPU-60 revision.

Source: http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3235
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
There are 8 documented Revisions:
  • RVL-CPU-01
  • RVL-CPU-20
  • RVL-CPU-30
  • RVL-CPU-40
  • RVL-CPU-60
  • RVK-CPU-01
  • RVK-CPU-02
  • RVO-CPU-01
There are also 3 more confirmed undocumented versions:
  • RVL-CPU-10
  • RVL-CPU-50
  • RVO-CPU-10
Shanks is currently attempting to track down and document these rare revisions.

The shorthands for the boards are as follows:
01 - RVL1 - RVL-CPU-01
10 - RVL10 - RVL-CPU-10
20 - RVL20 - RVL-CPU-20
30 - RVL30 - RVL-CPU-30
40 - RVL40 - RVL-CPU-40
50 - RVL50 - RVL-CPU-50
60 - RVL60 - RVL-CPU-60
K1 - RVK1 - RVK-CPU-01
K2 - RVK2 - RVK-CPU-02
M 1 - RVO2 - RVO-CPU-01
M10 - RVO2 - RVO-CPU-10

Other Notes:
There are unconfirmed reports of an RVL-CPU-50 in the PAL region.
There are currently no known differences between the RVK-01 and the RVK-02.
I wonder if the 10s and 50s actually exist? It would make sense for them to since the gap in revision numbering is unusual. However, they could have quite possibly been manufactured in extremely limited batches before upgrading to the next revision.

RVL-CPU-40 (GCN Wii)
The 40 is the most significant change yet, and it also marks the last significant change to the wii motherboard before the mini. As a cost cutting measure, the board was redesigned to use only 4 layers. All non-voltage traces were moved to the visible surface layer, making trimming this board significantly easier. If you plan to make a battery powered portable and you plan to trim it, this is one of your best options.
Most likely has a cleaner YPbPr signal output than the others before it, although not sure if on par with the 60 though. This is supposedly the last revision to have components made by SHARP present on the board)

RVL-CPU-60 (GCN Wii)
Can't tell the difference between the 40 and 60? It's quite subtle. One of the regulators was swapped out, specifically the 3.3v "always on" voltage line, from a linear regulator to a switching regulator. It is located above the wifi chip place and to the right of the MX chip. This slightly reduced power consumption even more, especially while in standby. Aside from this change the board is essentially identical to the 40, down to pretty much every single trace outside of said regulation circuitry. The 3.3v standby voltage line in the voltage layer also takes a slightly different route, so be sure all 3.3v standby areas are getting power when doing extreme cuts. All components made by SHARP have been removed and replaced, so this could be the reason for the change.
RVK-CPU-01 (Family Wii)
Despite changing the number system and starting over, the RVK didn't really change much. The board stayed essentially the same as the 60, but gamecube controller ports were not soldered on, and a section of the ground plane was cut to make way for a diagnostic port. The diagnostic port is wired to the memory card ports. It seems to be a proprietary plug. As mentioned earlier, gamecube data lines are still present, and ports can be soldered onto the board.
RVK-CPU-02 (Family Wii)
I have yet to find a difference between the RVK-01 and the RVK-02. The inductors look different, but using different types of inductors within the same revision is common. Different factories use different factory codes, so that is not the cause either.
RVO-CPU-01 (Wii Mini)
The wii mini appears very similar to other 4 layer boards in layout, with surprisingly few things actually moved. It seems to use the same Hollywood-1 and Broadway-1 as the 40s and beyond. This board contains a few less peripherals but may contain the circuitry for most if not all of them. The console has not been hacked, but hacking it could be promising. The board does not contain a 3.3v standby line, and all things previously connected to it on later revisions have been connected to the standard 3.3v line instead.
Source: https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... thread.66/

tl;dr RVL-60 (last Wii revision to support GameCube) seems to have the sharpest YPbPr output, on par with RVK-01/02 (Family Wiis)
White, Black Wiis and Mario 25th Anniversary Wiis manufactured in late 2010
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Lawfer
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Lawfer »

What's the Wii CPU revision that's contained inside the Wii U?

I also just checked my 2 Wiis using the unscrew the battery tray method, here are the results:

RVL-001 (USA) FB 30

RVL-001 (EUR) CS 60

What does "FB" and "CS" mean?

austin532 wrote:I wonder which Wii had the RVL-CPU-60 board?
The one I have was part of the Mario Kart bundle.
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Ingy »

I've no idea how it works internally, so this might be a stupid question, but could the later hardware revisions improve the quality of RGB Scart output on PAL Wiis too?
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Tofuman »

So I have a Red PAL RVL-001 and it’s RVL-CPU-50. Don’t know if anyone need the info, but yeah they exist, atleast over here. It’s the only Wii I’ve ever owned, so I can’t say much about how common they are.
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by fandangos »

Sorry to necrobump this thread.

Just wanted to know if it's correct:

Does the black Wii have unpopulated game cube controllers ports and if I use a dead motherboard I can dessolder the controllers and memory card pins and solder it back.

Is it possible?
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Einzelherz »

fandangos wrote:Sorry to necrobump this thread.

Just wanted to know if it's correct:

Does the black Wii have unpopulated game cube controllers ports and if I use a dead motherboard I can dessolder the controllers and memory card pins and solder it back.

Is it possible?
All colors of the Wii might be missing GCN ports.

If you're asking if you can add ports to a non-port motherboard, no. The GCN hardware is gone from the motherboard (to whatever extent) and I'm going to assume there are other major PCB revisions as well.

If you're talking about taking ports from a dead board and moving them to a board that had ports already, then yes, probably.
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austin532
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by austin532 »

Is there anyway to tell which version is a RVL-CPU-60 just by the serial #?
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fandangos
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by fandangos »

Einzelherz wrote:
fandangos wrote:Sorry to necrobump this thread.

Just wanted to know if it's correct:

Does the black Wii have unpopulated game cube controllers ports and if I use a dead motherboard I can dessolder the controllers and memory card pins and solder it back.

Is it possible?
All colors of the Wii might be missing GCN ports.

If you're asking if you can add ports to a non-port motherboard, no. The GCN hardware is gone from the motherboard (to whatever extent) and I'm going to assume there are other major PCB revisions as well.

If you're talking about taking ports from a dead board and moving them to a board that had ports already, then yes, probably.
After some googling I found this:

http://forums.modretro.com/index.php?th ... ide.14059/

"There are some big misconceptions about this version, so I hope to clear them up. This system will not play gamecube games without modification. The disc drive was simplified to only accept wii discs to reduce cost, and the ports were removed as well. This system has solder pads for gamecube controller and memory card ports. Ports can be soldered on, and this system can USB/SD load gamecube games. I have not tested if it can load commercial gamecube games through swapping the DVD drive with one from an older wii, but it should work in theory unless there is some firmware block."


Is this wrong?
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Einzelherz
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by Einzelherz »

I have no idea. It all seems like a lot of work to me instead of just getting another Wii with GCN ports.
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Re: Gamecube vs Wii component output

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

Interesting read and good info..if the video quality differences between Wii's were equal to going from NES composite to NES RGB, I would be a happy Papi. If I understand correctly, with this minor difference on video quality, I would not worry if you already own a Wii. If you are in need of a Wii, them hunt one with the best video quality and GameCube support:)
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