Modern display discussion

[gray117]

I dunno - I feel that the plasma debate probably belongs in the ode to old stuff thread

For my money the panasonic TX range was generally probably the best consumer level. I'm pretty sure they all had sub 30ms input lag. Some sub 20. You'd have to check per model for exact detail and features though. I'd presume if you're picking one up 2nd hand you'll be looking to find one of these... no such thing as viewing angle problems, good colour, decent general picture, real good fps conversion for film if that's a thing for you...

Two words of caution if you're not familiar with plasma in general - i) Use in darkened environment. ii) I must note I seem to be one of the few people that (at least on bright/high contrast image changes) that see the screen flicker/flash due to how a plasma posts it's image (nothing to do/fixible with hz refreash rate unfortunately - extremely fast/subtle sensitivity, probably in excess of 144hz) ... Most people don't seem to be effected by this at all, and I find it's often of minimal consequence even for people like me in your typical living room usage, but for some people it can be very bad.

And then there's the pioneer 4:3 plasma that appears in said ode thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43256
Pretty rare... though there have been a couple changing hands regularly around the arcade/shmup forums

OLED degredation/decay has put me off anything other than LCD recently... but if you get 5+ years warranty I guess you can't go too badly wrong up to the kind of prices you see now... and I would love a reasonable OLED 4k desktop... aforementioned input lag seems to all be 40ms and up though...

[tjstogy]

Pioneer and Panasonic (who bought the technology rights from Pioneer after they stopped producing tvs) are regarded as the best of the bunch. Idk specific models but I'm sure you can google "what's the best Pioneer tv" and find some forum ranting from people who are TV nerds.

Btw- people are practically giving plasmas away these days. I got my 50" Panasonic plasma for free, and it's simply gorgeous. This is coming from someone who's stared at OLED, 4K, HDR etc every day since inception and I still have no envy with my plasma- it's that good. Just don't leave a static image on the screen and you'll be fine (and they're soooo cheap right now)

Lastly, after you get your tv home (or even on your current tv) Google "calibratation settings for [insert model number here]". There were people who really went the extra mile, like CNET and others to give properly calibrated settings for a ton of tvs. Makes a yuuuuge difference, even over the included "THX" settings if it has it.

What are considered the best Plasma models around here?

[Josh128]

Samsungs latest mid-tier plasmas are fabulous and were an absolute steal in the last two years they were produced. Ultra-thin, light, and low power draw (compared to all other plasmas) I have 3 of them in my home and have been extremely satisfied with all of them.

For all around gaming which includes current gen and PC - the PNxxF5300 series Samsungs.

For strictly PS360 gen and lower/retro - the PNxxF4500 series.

Lag if I recall on both is ~38 to ~47 ms.


Many people also rave about the Panasonic Viera S60 series plasmas. 1080p with less lag than the above sets.

For strictly Home Theater/non gaming applications, the Samsung PNxxF8500 series and the Panasonic VT or ZT series are the top of the line high end sets. All these sets draw quite a bit of power (>400W) and quite a bit more lag than the above mentioned models. Old Pioneer Kuro sets may still be available but they were bigger and more power hungry still.

PS- Good luck securing any of these sets in very good condition for less than an arm and a leg.

[Guspaz]

But they're so tiny... Positively postage stamp sized at 50"!

I'll cling to my projector, with its 80" screen and 33ms of lag until really good TVs are available in that size

It supports 240p natively with 33ms of lag, but is way too sensitive to suboptimal sync, so the OSSC solves those problems.

[Ikaruga11]

Are professional/broadcast Plasma monitors a thing?

Did they ever make 4K Plasmas?

Advantages and disadvantages vs LCD and OLED?

[gray117]

Are professional/broadcast Plasma monitors a thing?
There were, but more common were commercial displays (pretty cost competitive for a time, though size/weight/heat meant they began to loose out as lcd manufaturering moved on)

Panasonic broadcast/pro - BH line (need to check per model).
Panasonic commercial - TH line (need to check per model).

For the price you're likely to even get these either of these used I'd probably go towards a good 4k oled though. No idea about input lag. Condition/wear and tear will likely be a concern depending on age/use: if your spending a lot of money, better do that with something that comes with a warranty

Did they ever make 4K Plasmas?
Nerp - well maybe the odd super rare display/test screen.

Advantages and disadvantages vs LCD and OLED?

Plasma - No viewing angle issues. Good contrast ratio. Good colours relatively excellent blacks. Prone to image retention, though with pixel orbiter on later sets the risk of actual 'burn' was far reduced. Generally good consistency amongst lines. ... Cons - pixel orbiter tend to add noise. Image tends to be a little 'softer'. Flicker/flashes may be observed by those sensitive to it. Brightness tended to be limited: not suitable for viewing in strong daylight.

LCD - check exact panel type primarily IPS vs TN but again actual implementation of either can vary widely. Typically TN has better speed but bad viewing angles vs. IPS better colours and viewing angles but slower input lag. In general it was harder to achieve a real good contrast ratio. There's massive variation from model to model, many, many variations, even within manufacturer lines.

OLED - The best of every world. Only two problems: i) input lag seem to typically be over 40ms on current tvs, often 60ms. ii) was they were found to be literally degrading over time (see early vita oleds). However, the current standards are listing expected lifetimes more on par with the later plasmas/lcds/crts - over 40,000 hours, probably more like 60,000... which is probably between 10-20 years depending on domestic usage. This is also similar to the early risks/problems faced by plasma burn ins, and lcd build quality concerns (dead pixels) ... we just haven't had a 4/5 year stretch to show this probably isn't a concern anymore with current OLED 4ks. That being said if you get 5+ year warranty on a more expensive screen you're probably going to be good.

[Guspaz]

Several of LG's OLED series have 34ms of input lag, specifically the E6 and C6 series. It's true that others (like the B6 and some of the 2015 models) are ~60ms. While there are a few exceptions, ~2 frames of lag is more or less the best you can expect from a television: going lower requires a gaming-focused computer monitor, and those are all very small in comparison.

Image retention (burn-in) is reported not to be a problem anymore, where any retention that manages to accumulate goes away if you turn off the TV (it's gone when you turn it back on again).

[tacoguy64]

Are professional/broadcast Plasma monitors a thing?

Did they ever make 4K Plasmas?

Advantages and disadvantages vs LCD and OLED?

I know they have pro plasma monitors, but the good ones are still very expensive and they wont go over 1080p.
As for OLEDs, I know sony still got pvm/bvm models that pop up on ebay/craigslist from time to time. But those are still expensive and only come in smaller sizes.

[ryu]

I'm pretty sure plasmas are out of production. There were a couple of manufacturers who made plasma displays for commercial use. NEC eventually sold their plasma division to pioneer, and apparently both their commercial and home plasmas were, and in circles still are, highly regarded.

Disadvanteges of plasma screens are:
- suboptimal black levels
- at close distance you can see the space between individual pixels
- prone to burn in
- image retention (afterglow)
- heavier and higher electricity in comparison to LCD

Advantage: Much better colors, contrast and motion resolution (less blur).

I wonder why the tech seems to have died. Guessing manufacturing costs.

In any case, Pioneer is probably the to-go brand for plasmas. The NEC units around are all really old, and NEC never made any 1080p sets as far as I know.

Some recommend Panasonic, but the one I had for a while was so bad with its image retention it was horrible! Was a cheap model though.

[ahaddow]

I absolutely love my Panasonic plasma. It's a Japanese model so I'm not sure what the # or series is, but it looks great. I am hoping it holds out until 4K OLEDs come down in price. It does have pretty bad image retention, but it goes away after a few seconds. Even after turning the set back on after it's been off, the retention is there for a few seconds then disappears. The colours and contrast are amazing, as is that refresh rate. I love it for games and bluray content.

[tjstogy]

Advantages of plasma: amazing picture, zero movement lag, dirt cheap on Craigslist.

[bobrocks95]

My Panasonic plasma has plenty of ghosting and other motion artifacts. Was this fixed later on or are you guys being a bit hyperbolic? It's reminiscent of RTC overshoot on an LCD.

[ChuChu Flamingo]

Motion on plasmas is pretty good, almost CRT like (due to them using phosphors iirc). If only a manufacturer made a sub 1 frame input lag monitor I would be golden. With this in mind, im still rocking a Panasonic plasma for my modern needs, and I think it has around 21-32ms of lag if I remember the tests someone did on them so like 2 frames potentially 1.

Plasmas died too early imo.

[Ikaruga11]

So Plasmas have more lag than LCDs?

[ryu]

So Plasmas have more lag than LCDs?

Depends on the model.

The input lag is caused by the image processing, same reason it's a thing in LCDs.

[Xyga]

Processing wa sindeed the main cause but 'same' would be oversimplifying a bit.

IIRC plasmas used a number of temporal dithering methods, while most lcds have been working with sample-and-hold.
In both cases this means the full picture is not displayed instantly, and while the 'drawing' time participates to the overall perceptible delay, those methods weren't the primary reasons for most of it.
For every type of flat panel tech it is essentially the handling and processing of the input signal that produces lag, so it's always been a market-to-consumer misconception to believe one type of panel tech would be inherently laggier the the other.
(I mean what can be a market truth at some point in time is not necessarily a technical truth)

Technically all flat panels should be able to display sub-1 frame: 60Hz sample-and-holds without unwanted delay show sub1 frame action down to around the middle of the screen (120+Hz even earlier of course), and in the case of plasmas it is said the eye can catch incomplete brightness images even before the subfields cycle is done, even if it seems like splitting hairs.
For OLEDs the same rule as LCD (still) applies.

Now while practically lagless LCD monitors are easily available today, and a small number of sub-to-1frame TVs as well, the plasmas market didn't last long-enough to birth sets with the lowest possible lag, or maybe a few models did but proper measurements /w proof are lacking since the technology was discontinued almost the same time lag testings began to improve and be more reliable.

Whatever, modern display still aren't complete replacements for CRTs. :p

[Josh128]

I'm pretty sure plasmas are out of production. There were a couple of manufacturers who made plasma displays for commercial use. NEC eventually sold their plasma division to pioneer, and apparently both their commercial and home plasmas were, and in circles still are, highly regarded.

Disadvanteges of plasma screens are:
- suboptimal black levels
- at close distance you can see the space between individual pixels
- prone to burn in
- image retention (afterglow)
- heavier and higher electricity in comparison to LCD

Advantage: Much better colors, contrast and motion resolution (less blur).

I wonder why the tech seems to have died. Guessing manufacturing costs.

In any case, Pioneer is probably the to-go brand for plasmas. The NEC units around are all really old, and NEC never made any 1080p sets as far as I know.

Some recommend Panasonic, but the one I had for a while was so bad with its image retention it was horrible! Was a cheap model though.

The Samsung F8500 series was rated as the best all around plasma display produced in overall image quality. It beat out the Panasonic VT's and ZT's which held the crown for a long time. The other Samsungs I mentioned have very good burn in resistance. To date, there is zero burn in on any of the 3 that I own. I did own a 2013 Panasonic Viera TC-P50X60 720p set and I sold it and used the money to buy another F4500. The F4500 stomped it in terms of image quality AND burn in/ image retention resistance. Was thinner and used less power as well.

[tjstogy]

Samsung tvs explode.

[ryu]

Samsung tvs explode.

You should elaborate on that

[tjstogy]

Kaboom. Kaplooey.

There I elaborated.

Joking aside it's just a reference to all the Samsung things that have been exploding... top load washing machines and cell phones

Samsung tvs explode.

You should elaborate on that

[kamiboy]

One of these days, Samsung. Bang! Zoom! Straight to the moon.

[Drunk_Caterpillar]

What are considered the best Plasma models around here?

Panasonic and Pioneer made amazing plasma displays, but they stopped manufacturing them a while ago. I think Samsung and LG might still make them and of those two it'd be better to go with Samsung. I don't hate my LG60PN6500 but it has some problems that I'm not a fan of.

[Guspaz]

Nobody has produced a plasma TV since 2014.

[NJRoadfan]

Sadly, plasmas are likely to die from electrical failures before burn-in ever becomes an issue. The circa 2010 Panasonic plasma in the basement just popped its second SC (y-sustain) board. I haven't decided if its going to get fixed again. The first rebuild cost $120 by a professional TV component refurbisher because finding a spare board was impossible at the time.

[Lawfer]

What are considered the best Plasma models around here?

I don't know about "round here" but the general consensus on forums is that the best Plasma were Kuro by Pioneer and Viera by Panasonic.

Are professional/broadcast Plasma monitors a thing?

They were a thing, just look at the Pioneer PDP-V402, that's a professional plasma monitor.

[AndehX]

Joking aside it's just a reference to all the Samsung things that have been exploding... top load washing machines and cell phones

I don't recall any Samsung phones exploding?

Best I can remember is the recent Galaxy Note 7 battery catching fire thing. Nothing out-right exploding though.

[noonan2678]

I can pick up a 64" F8500 for about $2k. It's had extremely minimal use and had been ISF calibrated.

Think it's worth it? Does anyone own one? Did they make them in smaller sizes?

[Xyga]

You're hesitating between this and an LG OLED maybe ?

[kamiboy]

Have you gone mad, man? Forget plasma, it is a done deal. You can get a 65" OLED for not much more.

[Lawfer]

2k for a USED Plasma?

That's way too much.