Micomsoft XPC-4 Information Thread

[Das Muel]

Actually, in my experience using the third auto-adjust menu and entering the maximum 1920 value gets the most consistent results (Mega Drive/Master Sytem etc). The Saturn however gives me jailbars with this setting, so for this I enter 1408. I've no idea why that value works but it does.

For Dreamcast VGA, I actually enter 640 in the third auto-adjust menu, rather than some integer value as it gives me pin-sharp results. With some games even this can be a little problematic though (certain sections of the screen are blurry while others are sharp). In these cases, I find that lowering the brightness and AD level right down to zero before auto-adjusting (to 640) solves the problem. I also shift the horizontal width down from 32 to 29 - this eliminates the very, very slight jailbarring on whites leaving a pretty much perfect image.

I use pretty much the same technique with component 480p sources, although unfortunately you have to transcode to VGA first as the XPC-4 displays a massive chroma shift if you hook it up directly. I'm looking forward to using the OSSC for this purpose as both the transcoders I've bought have their own flaws.

It's quite a quirky device but you can get some great results if you take the time. The biggest bummer for me is its 480i handling (or lack thereof) and also the lack of Mini-like profiles.

This guy's got some really good tips: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5373.10;wap2

[goji]

Thanks Das Muel, I tried your settings and it gives very good results with megadrive.

So today I tried XPC-4 with a Nec Accusync 71VM Monitor for my X68000. This monitor supports 15 and 31Khz and gives good results with my X68000 directly hooked up, but the picture is always cropped. So I tried to add the XPC-4 in the chain.

I hooked up everything like this : X68000 -> XPC-4 -> T-SLG -> Nec 71M monitor.

After adjusting every possible setting both on XPC-4 and the Nec monitor (I'm far to be a display professional, so I make it with instinct^^'), I found the best result with a resolution of 1920 on the XPC-4 and of course a bit of overscan to have a full picture displayed :







A weird thing though, Auto adjustement menu of the XPC-4 is not available with the Nec 71VM used.

[awe444]

I've been testing use of the XPC-4 between my OSSC and 1080p display.

The OSSC's great input/sync options combined with the XPC-4's 1080p framebuffer/output make these two devices a formidable combo. The OSSC's DVI output goes directly into the XPC-4's DVI input and, with the right settings on the XPC-4 (documented below), you can get a pixel perfect 1440x960p (= 2x 720x480p) letterboxed signal within the 1080p frame. These same settings will scale the OSSC's line-tripled 240p into a line-quadrupled 240p, again letterboxed inside the 1080p frame. This 3x --> 4x scaling looks much cleaner than just scaling the 720p to 1080p, especially when scanlines are involved.

The XPC-4 adds up to a frame of lag (though this possibly replaces lag the display would otherwise add performing the same buffering/scaling), and it still costs more than twice what the OSSC costs. However when coupled with the OSSC in this manner, it easily outperforms the Framemeister and is likely on par with whatever will succeed the Framemeister, minus perhaps 4K output.

For reference I copy the XPC-4's menu from an earlier post in this thread:

Code: Select all

Main menu

1) 画面自動調整
2) アスペクト
3) 画質調整
4) 画面調整
5) オプション
6) ズーム
7) TV出力モード
8) D出力モード
9) RGB出力モード
10) スペシャル

Sub-menu 4) 画面調整

A) 表示幅
B) オーバースキャン
C) 水平位置
D) 垂直位置
E) 水平表示幅
F) 垂直表示幅
G) 入力水平位置
H) 入力垂直位置
I) 入力水平表示幅
J) 入力垂直表示幅
K) ドットクロック
L) スキュー

The optimal XPC-4 settings (assuming it's outputting 1920x1080p) given a DVI input from the OSSC differ slightly depending on whether the signal contains 16:9 anamorphic widescreen content (e.g., Wii games in widescreen mode) or regular 4:3 content (this includes most use cases including line-doubled 240p, line-tripled 240p [16:9 generic mode], 480i, 4:3 480p, and line-doubled 4:3 480p).

Here are the specific settings:

Menu item 2
Choose third/last option for 16:9 anamorphic content otherwise choose second/middle option for 4:3 content

Menu item 4
A) 32 for 16:9 content, 60 (non-default) for 4:3 content
B) 22 (non-default)
C) 64
D) 32
E) 32
F) 31 (non-default)
G) 32
H) 32
I) 32
J) 32
K) non-adjustable for digital signal
L) non-adjustable for digital signal

[Hoagtech]

it easily outperforms the Framemeister and is likely on par with whatever will succeed the Framemeister

I am interested. Do you own both devices?

I haven't seen a lag measurement on that device. I am looking to loose a few milliseconds if I could.

I read on fudoh's retro that the DVD Edge + XRGB-2 combo would be the fastest at 6-7 ms

[Fudoh]

Nice! I wouldn't have thought that you can manage to keep the scanlines from the OSSC's 720p output intact by using the XPC-4 as a secondary processor. Can you post a digicam snapshot of anything running through that combo with 720p from the OSSC?

The only downside I see is that you have to adjust the settings on a per game basis and that the XPC performs a framerate conversion, which - depending on the source system - will introduce some judder with smoothly scrolling titles.

[awe444]

Nice! I wouldn't have thought that you can manage to keep the scanlines from the OSSC's 720p output intact by using the XPC-4 as a secondary processor. Can you post a digicam snapshot of anything running through that combo with 720p from the OSSC?

Below photos are of the Wii test suite. Console's connect through OSSC's component input, then passed through the XPC-4 with above settings (producing a 960p image centered inside the 1080p signal) and displayed on a 1080p screen via the XPC-4's DVI out. The OSSC's scanlines are set to 100% intensity in all cases.


240p line-doubled by OSSC (then scaled 2x --> 4x by the XPC-4):



240p line-tripled by OSSC (then scaled 3x --> 4x by the XPC-4):



480p line-doubled by OSSC (no scaling needed to be performed by XPC-4):


The second image demonstrates how sharp and dark the scanlines persist through the 3x --> 4x scaling. In each group of four display lines comprising the 4x image (three "on" and one "off"), the "on" line immediately above each "off" line does show slight darkening compared to the other two "on" lines, however this persists evenly across the entire height of the image.

[Fudoh]

Thank you!

While I don't think that it's a combo for everyone (lack of framelock, nice scanlines just with integer scaling etc), it definitely shows how flexible and compatible the XPC-4's input is after all.

Would you mind taking another screenshot showing 720p from the OSSC to FULLSCREEN 1080p through the XPC-4 ? Just as a comparison how important integer scaling factors on the XPC are compared to - let's say - a DVDO as a secondary processor.

[awe444]

Thank you!

While I don't think that it's a combo for everyone (lack of framelock, nice scanlines just with integer scaling etc), it definitely shows how flexible and compatible the XPC-4's input is after all.

Would you mind taking another screenshot showing 720p from the OSSC to FULLSCREEN 1080p through the XPC-4 ? Just as a comparison how important integer scaling factors on the XPC are compared to - let's say - a DVDO as a secondary processor.

I'll post a fullscreen shot soon. Regarding comparison to DVDOs (referencing videogameperfection.com's reviews at least), it would appear the XPC avoids a least a couple issues the DVDOs would introduce. The Edge has a refresh-rate-related lag issue (for certain consoles, e.g. NTSC Saturn) and the VP50 has bad handling of 240p/480i transitioning from the OSSC. The XPC has really fast (<1 second) handling of 240p/480i transitions, but you're right that the XPC's lack of frame lock (meaning a one-frame jump every 5-6 seconds on scrolling screens) is not ideal.

[jugu]

Besides the form on the website, is there an email address for a support contact at Micomsoft? My XPC-4 encountered an error when attempting to flash a newer firmware. Now, the device powers on, blue led light, but nothing more. Not recognized via USB, and no video output, button presses are ignored. I filled out the form on their site in English about 2 weeks ago and haven't heard anything. Should I try again in Google-translated Japanese?

Thank you.

jugu

[Fudoh]

Should I try again in Google-translated Japanese?

might be better. They don't do anything else with your english email....

[jugu]

Should I try again in Google-translated Japanese?

might be better. They don't do anything else with your english email....

Perfect timing. They just replied saying they'll contact me next week as they don't have availability at the moment.

[Frankym2612]

Hi guys Ive got an xpc4 coming in the mail I mainly want it for fast 240p/480i transitions and maybe as a 240p scaler replacing a framemeister if it scales as well I want to know through the ossc does it still handle the transitions fast?

[awe444]

Hi guys Ive got an xpc4 coming in the mail I mainly want it for fast 240p/480i transitions and maybe as a 240p scaler replacing a framemeister if it scales as well I want to know through the ossc does it still handle the transitions fast?

Yes I can confirm that the when receiving the output of the OSSC, the XPC-4 handles the 240p/480i transitions quite fast (under 1 second dropout time). Read my post above for optimal zoom settings on the XPC-4 when used with OSSC. Keep in mind what Fudoh mentioned about the lack of frame lock though; the XPC-4 will always output at 60fps and hence cause slight stutter every 5-6s that is mostly apparent on scrolling

[Frankym2612]

Thanks! I'm gonna use it mainly for ps1 or whatever game has that switch or old consoles for 240p like Genesis snes if it beats out the framemeister

[Frankym2612]

You guys try the xpc 4 with the ossc with the new firmware that allows 4x and 5x line doubling?

[awe444]

You guys try the xpc 4 with the ossc with the new firmware that allows 4x and 5x line doubling?

Yes, I've done some testing.

The 240pX4 mode buffered at native res inside a 1080p output looks identical in terms of vertical scaling to the first of my three above images, i.e. the one showing 240pX2 subsequently doubled (to 4x) by the XPC-4. Only difference is that the XPC-4 sees 240pX2 as 720x480p (so that the XPC-4 doubles it to 1440x960p) whereas the XPC-4 sees 240pX4 as 1280x960p. Altering the XPC-4's horizontal scaling accordingly, you can make the XPC-4's buffered 240pX4 output look completely indistinguishable from its buffered doubled 240pX2 output.

Hence, 240pX4 mode adds essentially nothing for people who already use the XPC-4 to buffer the OSSCs output. However, if the 240pX4 scanlines could be configured to be one line thick instead of the currently implemented two lines thick, you'd end up with a brighter, sharper version of the second image in my above three images. This would actually look really nice and I hope that thinner 4x scanlines can be implemented in the future for this specific reason.

For 240pX5, the XPC-4 becomes kind of redundant/unnecessary since the OSSC can output 1920x1080p directly in this mode. I've verified that the XPC-4 does indeed recognize the 240pX5 when the OSSC outputs it as 1920x1080p, so folks who have displays that don't accept the OSSC's 1080p output might consider using the XPC-4 to convert it to a compatible signal (although the resulting signal has another frame of lag added, and is locked to 60Hz, which are both drawbacks).

My personally favorite update in the latest firmware that works very well with the XPC-4 is actually 960i support (which specifically helps a bunch of PS2 games). See this post on VGP boards for details

[Frankym2612]

Thanks for all the info! Ya what you explained is what I was thinking about what if the ossc wouldn't work with my tv in 5x but with the Xpc4 it would hopefully also isn't framelock to 60hz good because it would get rid of shudder? I don't mind a little more lag I'm basically trying to get this combo to do everything the framemeister can do and more like handle the resolution better like it already does

[awe444]

isn't framelock to 60hz good because it would get rid of shudder?

I think it's the opposite---game consoles don't output at exactly 60Hz, and that can't be changed, so forcing the refresh rate to 60Hz is precisely what causes what can look like periodic frame skips/drops/jumps usually every 5-to-6 seconds or so, depending on the exact discrepancy

I'm basically trying to get this combo to do everything the framemeister can do and more like handle the resolution better like it already does

That's pretty much my mindset as well. The lack of profiles on the XPC-4 makes it a little harder to simultaneously accomodate all the new OSSC output modes though. I guess it's possible that the XPC-4 might someday have profile support, given that it's still being sold by Micomsoft this isn't out of the question. Or at least an English firmware translation would be a nice start!

[JamieS]

Does anyone know if it's possible to turn off Autoscan in digital input mode on the XPC4? It's currently greyed out. I'm trying to use my OSSC with it, but everytime i play a game with borders or black areas at the top or bottom it zooms in and obscures some of the screen. It works properly in analogue input mode.

[awe444]

Does anyone know if it's possible to turn off Autoscan in digital input mode on the XPC4? It's currently greyed out. I'm trying to use my OSSC with it, but everytime i play a game with borders or black areas at the top or bottom it zooms in and obscures some of the screen. It works properly in analogue input mode.

The XPC-4's autoscan function is a way of auto-detecting an analog signal's line sample rate / active pixels, which in turn determines the content of each pixel output by the analog-to-digital conversion. If you're inputting a digital signal, the XPC-4 doesn't need to perform that analog to digital conversion and thus has no reason to auto-detect the sample rate (it's being told directly the content of each digital pixel), which is why the function is greyed out.

The XPC-4 does however have several scaling, cropping and centering settings that affect how the digital image is being rendered/buffered inside whatever resolution frame you're outputting from the XPC-4. I might be able to give you specific values to try if you let me know which console, OSSC line multiple mode, and XPC output resolution you're attempting.

[JamieS]

Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. It's strange though because the image is fine for 5-10 seconds and then zooms in, there's some auto detection going on and no setting i have found stops it from happening. This is on all consoles and OSSC output settings, if the image has borders then the screen will zoom in after the time above. This is solved on analogue by turning oiff the setting i mentioned.

[awe444]

Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. It's strange though because the image is fine for 5-10 seconds and then zooms in, there's some auto detection going on and no setting i have found stops it from happening. This is on all consoles and OSSC output settings, if the image has borders then the screen will zoom in after the time above. This is solved on analogue by turning oiff the setting i mentioned.

This almost sounds like a feature on your TV, not the XPC-4 (at least I've seen many TVs with an auto-zoom feature like the one you describe). If it is due to your TV, it's further possible the TV only does the auto-zoom for digital inputs, which would explain why it isn't happening to any input analog signals?

Can you describe exactly the full chain of your setup---from the console to your TV, including all cables (SCART, DVI, DSUB 15-pin, etc), converters, and adapters?

Edit: It's possible too that your XPC-4 is on a newer/older firmware that's different from what I'm on and has this weird zoom feature. We'd need others to say whether it happens on their unit to confirm

[strygo]

I recently picked up a used XPC-4. As with others on this thread, I'm trying to understand how it works.

I'm having one problem that I'm hoping is due to user error. In certain resolutions, the output is being stretched to the full width of the display, even though it should be 4:3. I would have assumed the "Aspect" option set to "normal" would address my problem. But when I toggle between normal and wide, I don't see any change. Anyone know how to resolve this? Thanks for your help.

[strygo]

I'm having one problem that I'm hoping is due to user error. In certain resolutions, the output is being stretched to the full width of the display, even though it should be 4:3. I would have assumed the "Aspect" option set to "normal" would address my problem. But when I toggle between normal and wide, I don't see any change. Anyone know how to resolve this? Thanks for your help.

So with more experimentation, I've discovered that if I switch the output from VIDEO/S to RGB, the display uses the correct aspect ratio. Does anyone have a detailed explanation of the difference here? I'm using the DVI-D out to HDMI, so I'm somewhat surprised this has any effect. This mode works, except for a thin bright pink line at the top of the display. I've tried adjusting the signal without any success. Does anyone know what is causing this and how I might rectify it?

I also re-read Fudoh's review and while I understand MODE SELECT changes the resolution, does anyone know what the different colors map to? I couldn't find any OSD that indicates this anywhere.

Thanks for your help!

[Fudoh]

red is 640x480. White is 1920x720p. Can't remember the other ones, but the order is VGA > XGA > 1280x1024 > 1600x1200 > 1280x720 > 1280x768 > 1080p.

Some of the these resolution are 4:3 or even 5:4 to begin with, so maybe your problem is related to that ? Output is supposed be set to RGB anyway. Video/S are used for downscaling to SD. D is used for component output, but the quality isn't worth using that.

[strygo]

red is 640x480. White is 1920x720p. Can't remember the other ones, but the order is VGA > XGA > 1280x1024 > 1600x1200 > 1280x720 > 1280x768 > 1080p.

Thanks. I can only get red to display on my TV. The other ones don't display anything. I'm not sure why this might be the case. I noticed the CPU/OSD versions are quite old (the unit was unused but I purchased it from a person), so I will try updating those. If you have any other ideas of things I could try, please let me know.

[strygo]

Ugh. Having a bear of a time updating the XPC-4. I hope there isn't something wrong with the unit.

I normally run Parallels on my Mac and I can't get the Mac (and by extension various versions of Windows (XP, 2K12, 10) to detect the XPC-4 when it is plugged in. Both my retro PC (running Win 98SE) and my wife's Surface (running Win 8 ) show an error when trying to detect the device. Micomsoft's specs claim to only support 2000, XP and 7, so I will need to track down a device. I'm also not confident my cable works.

Edit: Just found this on their FAQ:

On computers with Corei 3 / i 5 / i 7 installed on the CPU, it may not be possible to recognize XPC - 4 with USB due to compatibility with the chipset. In that case, firmware update (including still image capture function) can not be used on these personal computers.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[strygo]

Well, the incompatibility was the problem. I used a Windows 10 PC with an AMD processor to update the XPC-4 using the firmware instructions and it worked fine. On top of that, the problems I was experiencing on my TV were fully resolved with the update. 1080p works great.

[strygo]

Recently, I've been working on getting my HDMI systems connected to my LCD TV since I ran out of HDMI ports on the TV. I'm having trouble with the XPC-4 in particular - when I connect it directly to the TV, it works great. When I connect it through something else, I see interference in the image. It's sort of a wavy interference that goes from top to bottom.

The first device I used was the iScan Duo. Everything else I've tried on the iScan Duo was fine (8 or so systems). I figured it might be the signal processing that the Duo is performing that was contributing to the problem.

I tracked down a Shinybow HDMI 8x1 switch hoping that it would be doing less than the Duo. Unfortunately, I still reproduce the same problem when the XPC-4 is connected to this switch.

Now the weirdest part - when I use the soft power cycle button on the XPC-4 remote, for that brief window (2-3 seconds), the interference goes away. This leads me to believe that the XPC-4 is at least partially to blame.

Anyone run into this problem with the XPC-4? I can obviously connect it directly to the display, but I'm interested in figuring out what's going wrong (and ideally finding a solution). Thanks for reading.

Steve

[Fudoh]

I would swap out the PSU first. It's the most obvious source for interference.