Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

That's a weird question. "Arcade" is a pretty vague description of anything, but if I had to apply the label, I would think a game that forces you to constantly push forward, and doesn't appreciate the slow approach feels more of an "arcade game". Forced scrolling or constant Contra-style enemy onslaughts are obvious examples of this. Difficulty tends to play a role as well, though a less important one.
Castlevania can easily work as an arcade game (see Vs. Castlevania or Haunted Castle for that matter), but obviously it doesn't feel as "arcade" as the much more fast paced Alien Soldier. Honestly, the only thing that makes Ghosts n Goblins more "arcade" than Castlevania, is the randomly respawning enemies, which only occasionally happens in CV. And in Ninja Gaiden every single spawn is fixed.


Almost all of the games you are mentioning are Game Boy "versions" of more popular console or arcade games. Of the ones mentioned I think only the Rockman World games and Bionic Commando really stick out as being separate entities on Game Boy, worth looking into in addition to their NES/Famicom counterparts.

[copy-paster]

But I dunno about Battletoads,Super Shinobi ,Rockman or the slow assed Belmont's Revenge

The first Rockman on NES has more arcade feel compared to others in the series. Super Mario Bros 2 FDS also can be labeled as "arcade" if looking at the difficulty and its length.

[BrianC]

Almost all of the games you are mentioning are Game Boy "versions" of more popular console or arcade games. Of the ones mentioned I think only the Rockman World games and Bionic Commando really stick out as being separate entities on Game Boy, worth looking into in addition to their NES/Famicom counterparts.

I disagree that Bionic Commando and Mega Man are the only ones worth looking into. Tennis, Nemesis II/Gradius IA, Hammerin' Harry, and both Tiny Toon Adventures games are all very different from the NES/AC games and worth playing in their own right. Wave Race is a GB exclusive (N64 game plays a bit different and came later). Darkwing Duck is similar to the NES version, but has enough differences in level design to be worth playing in its own right.

Of the three Paperboy versions mentioned, the GBA version is probably the closest to the arcade, though that version often plays the voice samples at the wrong time. GB Paperboy is a straight NES port with little compensation for the hardware. There's no way to tell the subscriber and non subscriber houses, aside from the mailboxes, in that version. GBC Paperboy is a bit disappointing with poor music and wonky hit detection.

[BIL]

Bionic Commando GB is one of those games that's worth an entire hardware platform on its own (whether you go portable, or SGB/GB Player). Essential grappling hook platformer.

There's a fair bit of other good/great stuff on GB, mind. I highly recommend Contra. On paper, it may seem more or less "Super C Portable" - but its native autofire and tighter stage design give it a rollicking character of its own.

Metal Slut

Elsydeon, you're cooler than you know - but I have to point out it's actually "Metal Slug." A "slug" being both a crawling animal (like the game's tank), and a solid projectile (like the shells it fires into motherfuckers' faces). A "slut" is something very different. ;3

[Vanguard]

This thread is a wonderful resource for finding new games. Thank you all for the great recommendations.

Any of you play Taito's Cadash? It's something like Rastan as an action RPG. I'm a big fan of the way it blends lightweight strategy with sidescrolling action. You've got four playable characters, nicely differentiated and severely unbalanced. I see their power disparity as a good thing - once you master the stronger classes, you've got the option to play again on a higher difficulty.

Anyway, I think the coolest thing about Cadash is the way it makes you deal with long-term problems. Your character can fully heal at inns, but the price rises aggressively with each stay, so you need to make decisions on when to recover and when to do without. The game's a lot easier if you stop a few times to level up your character, but there's a moderately strict time limit in place, which prevents leveling from becoming tedious and adds a bit of strategy in deciding when to grind and for how long. It's definitely possible to 1CC the game without doing any grinding at all, which is nice.

As a pure action game Cadash is competent but unexceptional. It's the inclusion of RPG elements that add depth, rather than remove it, that makes it unique. Avoid the genesis and turbografx ports, both are wildly inferior to the arcade version. The world version is notably easier than the others and has some funny engrish.

Also, what are good ways to record footage from a computer? I want to make some videos to post here.

[Squire Grooktook]

For recording, try OBS.

And yeah. Only played Cadash once on the Taito Legends compliation (1 or 2, can't remember which). Seemed interesting. One of numerous on the backlog.

[BIL]

Any of you play Taito's Cadash? It's something like Rastan as an action RPG. I'm a big fan of the way it blends lightweight strategy with sidescrolling action. You've got four playable characters, nicely differentiated and severely unbalanced. I see their power disparity as a good thing - once you master the stronger classes, you've got the option to play again on a higher difficulty.

Always found Cadash's AC/RPG concept intriguing, though as with Rastan I'm way behind on playing it in earnest. Got it on one of the PS2 Memories discs for a rainy day. Was sussing out the MD+PCE ports recently, but held off pending research in case (as you suggest) they don't hold up today. A tricky process, determining which of those contemporary ports still have something to offer... for Taito's part I love the rejigged MD Darius II, but Thunder Fox is a trudging shadow of the AC's astonishingly rampant Rolling Thunder/Ninja Warriors hybrid.

Spoiler

^ you most definitely won't see that in the MD port - Taito Memories II Gekan is the way to go for TF on console.

(Thunder Fox MD sounds like a cracking name for a superhero physician though)

At the moment, I'm limited to making replay videos with various emulators that've been modded for TAS purposes - you can generally find their latest versions at TASvideos. They tend to add direct AVI writing, which gets around my ancient PC's capture woes. Besides limiting me to 8-16 bit stuff (not the worst thing in this genre, probably why I've limped along like this for three+ years), it's obviously a far from ideal situation for several reasons.

Eventually I'll quit digging about in the old games bin and actually purchase some decent capture gear... and get my consoles shipped from home... oh hey wait a sec this game looks cool. Where was I?

[GaijinPunch]

though as with Rastan I'm way behind on playing it in earnest. Got it on one of the PS2 Memories discs for a rainy day.

Way behind -- poured tons of quarters into this one. Played it again more than a few times over the years. Played it at HEY! in Akihabara when the Cave pros were too much for me to watch. Definitely one of the games that made an impact on me. Never tried the Taito Memories disc. Back when I bought PS2 I had a proper RGB monitor and I heard the memories games are quite soft, which is unfortunate.

[WelshMegalodon]

Also, what are good ways to record footage from a computer? I want to make some videos to post here.

Unregistered Hypercam 2

I'll second OBS.

[BIL]

Back when I bought PS2 I had a proper RGB monitor and I heard the memories games are quite soft, which is unfortunate.

Yeah. The secret gulag I'm constructing in my backyard is gonna have many, many PS2 port/compilation devs confined in it. No excuse, no mercy. I ain't asking for everyone to be M2 or Arika, for god's sake...

That said, the second pair did at least add TATE, a nice gesture for Rayforce and Fighting Hawk.

[Vanguard]

Always found Cadash's AC/RPG concept intriguing, though as with Rastan I'm way behind on playing it in earnest. Got it on one of the PS2 Memories discs for a rainy day. Was sussing out the MD+PCE ports recently, but held off pending research in case (as you suggest) they don't hold up today. A tricky process, determining which of those contemporary ports still have something to offer...

I've played through the MD and PCE ports once each, and they really don't stack up at all. Both of them do away with the time limit, so there's no pressure to play quickly. Inn prices don't go up over time either, so you can backtrack and get full healing whenever you want to. Those two changes just destroy the AC version's sense of constant pressure. The MD version removes the priest and ninja classes too, and those are the coolest ones! There are small changes to the level design which aren't a big deal, I remember the MD version is more stingy with enemy hitstun. I don't remember if the PCE version changes the combat mechanics, but they did nerf the priest considerably. And neither of them looks anywhere near as good as the original arcade version.

I haven't played the Taito Legends version. I'd be interested in hearing whether it's one of the arcade versions, or if they altered it into its own thing. Here are the differences I know of between the World AC version and the other AC versions:

World:
Healing herbs cost 20 gold
You can carry up to 8 healing herbs and antidotes
The dragon amulet is worth 60,000 gold
The priest's time spell adds 60 seconds to the timer
Lower boss hp. Not sure if this is true for every boss, but the final boss is definitely much weaker

JP/US/etc:
Healing herbs cost 200 gold
You can carry 4 herbs/antidotes
The dragon amulet is worth 10,000 gold
The priest's time spell adds 30 seconds to the timer
Higher boss hp

Edit: Forgot to mention that inn prices are lower in the World version

[BIL]

Excellent, thanks for the detailed info - will be referring back to this.

AFAIK, the NTSCJ Taito Memories discs use straight emulation of Japanese arcade ROMs... not sure how directly comparable they are to the US/EU Legends discs, outside of G-Darius and Raystorm (due to issues emulating their hardware on PS2, those two received actual ports for Taito Memories Gekan, which were then included in Taito Legends 2).

[BrianC]

Cadash is in Taito Legends 2 for PC and it uses a ROM set that can be used in MAME. I think it uses the world ROM, but I have to check, since that isn't the case with all games.

[Sumez]

They put up Cadash here at the "local arcade", and what it tries to do is pretty unique for an arcade game, so I've been tempted to put some time into the game.

Every run is a bit of an investment though. It has a slow pace, but a credit lasts a long time even if you aren't familiar with the game. It may look and play like Rastan, but it feels very different and much less action oriented. Most enemies are entirely predictable in the way they spawn and move, and much more than Rastan I feel this is a game where you really need to "know the tricks" to progress. In fact just knowing where to go and how to abuse the enemy AI, etc. is probably much more important to getting you through the game, than just being good at video games. I used the term "guide 'em up" in one of my recent posts in this thread - Cadash is very much one.

It's sort of cool that you only have one life, and running out of HP will end your credit. This can very easily happen abruptly at a single specific enemy anywhere in the game though, provided you come unprepared. The idea is of course that at this point, you've spent a lot of time just getting there, so in order to not have wasted your progress, you pop in another credit - the game designers definitely had this mentality in mind, and it's strongly reflected in the game design.
On that note, the time limit, which is really the only reigns that hold it down as an "arcade game", has that attribute we talked about in the Euroshmups thread, where it can very easily cause you to be dead long before you "know it" when paired with the exploration aspect of the game.

Unregistered Hypercam 2

That is a joke video. Right? I'm actually unsure.

[evil_ash_xero]

I just got around to playing Power Blade, and found it to be much easier than I was expecting. Not a bad game.

I'm also working on Ninja Gaiden, and am on that final stretch to the last boss. I'm kind of wary, after seeing AVGN crumble at this part. But he can't play some games well at all.

[Sumez]

The thing that kills AVGN over and over again in "the AVGN room" is really more of a puzzle than a challenge. You pretty much just hold right to pass through it. Very easy.

[Shoryukev]

Bionic Commando GB is one of those games that's worth an entire hardware platform on its own (whether you go portable, or SGB/GB Player). Essential grappling hook platformer.

There's a fair bit of other good/great stuff on GB, mind. I highly recommend Contra. On paper, it may seem more or less "Super C Portable" - but its native autofire and tighter stage design give it a rollicking character of its own.

I will have to look for at least these two titles, I've been using my super gameboy a ton lately! Been debating getting a super gameboy 2, as I've heard it plays at a more accurate speed than the original (which is about 10% fast I've been told).

[evil_ash_xero]

The thing that kills AVGN over and over again in "the AVGN room" is really more of a puzzle than a challenge. You pretty much just hold right to pass through it. Very easy.

I will definitely keep that in mind.

[Vanguard]

OBS worked out pretty well. Thanks for the recommendation!

Here's a 1CC of the US version of Cadash using the priest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlNter8Sb2c

[BIL]

Good stuff - was only planning to watch a few bosses in, but found the RPG/arcade hybrid so charming I stuck around to the end. And as you say, there's three other classes. I actually thought this was a fair bit later than 1989, was surprised by the ending copyright date. Seems like a game that might have some interesting development backstories.

Out of curiosity, have you played Dracula X68000/Castlevania Chronicles? The priest's whip attack instantly reminded me of that game's addictive snap, particularly the jumping downstrikes. I was also interested to see this predated Dracula IV (SFC) - I wonder if the 8way whip was any influence. Looks more satisfying here tbh, without IV's annoying and easily-activated floppy wiener mode.

Wonder Boy in Monster Land and Magic Sword were coming to mind too, for obvious reasons. I adore the latter, but good god damn it's unforgiving. The SFC port is far easier, even before taking its heavy slowdown into account - but TBH I consider it a worthy "Black Label" to the AC version on Capcom Classics Collection 2 (PS2). Allows experimentation with weaker partners and/or less efficient routes that'll get you brutalised on AC, and without being completely defanged.

Interesting glitch at 21:50, for a sec I thought something a lot more sinister was afoot with that zombie spontaneously regenerating his skin and hair. My ears always prick up at medievally brutal necromantic content, loved the whole ruined village scenario.

Engrish didn't disappoint - Taito's never did. I think only SNK's Neo Geo stuff had a comparably consistent grasp of the tone. The one that transcends mere grammatical slip-ups to shine through even technically correct English.

"Yuh... you can understand what I'm saying?" <--this is exactly how I picture my dog reacting in similar circumstances
"Now you have avenged the dead/my people. Thank you. Woof woof."
"Thank you. I will keep my fingers crossed for you in heaven."
"I am the king of devil!"



Taito is kings.

[trap15]

Played a bunch of MSX Akumajou Dracula today. What a fucker of a game! Everything -- key items, hearts, shop ladies, chests, keys -- is fucking hidden in walls, and there are room edges that are non-commutative, and you have to catch the cross to keep it, and holy shit what other things can we do to hate the player. Fun in a very masochistic way. You know the game utterly despises you playing it, but it's pain that hurts so good

[Sumez]

Thanks for the Dead Connection drop. Picked up that pcb dirt cheap earlier this year, and never pulled myself together to actually play it. I gotta get going!

[evil_ash_xero]

Tecmo weren't fucking around with the last level of Ninja Gaiden, were they?

[FinalBaton]

Tecmo weren't fucking around with the last level of Ninja Gaiden, were they?

It's not too bad
You just have to learn how to exploit enemies by playing it a bunch of times and memorize, memorize, memorize. Memorization is the name of the game! (soooo... memorization Gaiden?)

[FinalBaton]

Fun in a very masochistic way. You know the game utterly despises you playing it, but it's pain that hurts so good

Sounds like a game for BIRRU-sama

[evil_ash_xero]

Tecmo weren't fucking around with the last level of Ninja Gaiden, were they?

It's not too bad
You just have to learn how to exploit enemies by playing it a bunch of times and memorize, memorize, memorize. Memorization is the name of the game! (soooo... memorization Gaiden?)

I'm stuck in that boss loop. I beat the first form. Died, thrown back to the beginning of the stage. Still can't get past the second form. I know how to, I just keep screwing up. I've fought the last boss before, and I know how to beat him too...but I just have to pull it all together.

[Vanguard]

Out of curiosity, have you played Dracula X68000/Castlevania Chronicles? The priest's whip attack instantly reminded me of that game's addictive snap, particularly the jumping downstrikes. I was also interested to see this predated Dracula IV (SFC) - I wonder if the 8way whip was any influence. Looks more satisfying here tbh, without IV's annoying and easily-activated floppy wiener mode.

Wonder Boy in Monster Land and Magic Sword were coming to mind too, for obvious reasons. I adore the latter, but good god damn it's unforgiving. The SFC port is far easier, even before taking its heavy slowdown into account - but TBH I consider it a worthy "Black Label" to the AC version on Capcom Classics Collection 2 (PS2). Allows experimentation with weaker partners and/or less efficient routes that'll get you brutalised on AC, and without being completely defanged.

I've spent a few hours with CV Chronicles after reading how well recommended it is around here. Tough game! It deserves more attention than I've given it so far. Big fan of the series in general, though. My favorite is Order of Ecclesia for its combination of classic CV's difficulty with SotN-style RPG elements and exploration. Its level 1 hard mode is a real treat. I also love Bloodlines - its action just feels so right. Not into SCIV though, I've always thought exactly as you said, that the Cadash priest's flail is the SCIV whip done better.

Will definitely look into the SNES version of Magic Sword. I liked credit feeding through the arcade version back in the day, before I knew about 1CCs. After a more recent revisit I concluded that it was not meant to be played on one credit. Guess I just wasn't good enough!

Engrish didn't disappoint - Taito's never did. I think only SNK's Neo Geo stuff had a comparably consistent grasp of the tone. The one that transcends mere grammatical slip-ups to shine through even technically correct English.

"Yuh... you can understand what I'm saying?" <--this is exactly how I picture my dog reacting in similar circumstances
"Now you have avenged the dead/my people. Thank you. Woof woof."
"Thank you. I will keep my fingers crossed for you in heaven."
"I am the king of devil!"

The world version is even better in this regard! Off the top of my head, I remember that the king/Baarogue's first line "How good that you have come!" becomes "How well you came!" Princess Sarasa's "Thank you for helping us!" at the end becomes "Thank you for the important thing!"

[EmperorIng]

re:Rastan Saga

Also about bats: I don't think there's an issue there, at least. The bats are small and have tiny hitboxes, so hitting them mid air with your close range sword requires precise timing. They don't do much damage though so even if you fail every time (I don't find them that hard) it's unlikely they'll ever kill you. I think it's a perfectly fair challenge.

I finally downloaded a Japan rom and realized what exactly I've been doing wrong: i've been playing the World version which is incredibly (and unfairly) sadistic with its bats in the "dungeon" levels.

In level 1's dungeon in Japan, two meek bats will appear about 45 seconds in and flitter about the screen, posing little threat. In the World ROM, that same amount of time will spawn SIX bats flying directly towards you, going directly into your sprite for massive damage. To top it off, at appx. 45 second intervals 6 bats will CONTINUE to spawn, each swarm getting faster (to lulz-worthy speeds, zipping forward 50mph) to just fucking kill you without a second thought.

Playing that World ROM garbage made me occasionally doubt that Rastan was actually a great game.

From my observations, the World ROM lacks:
1) the intro that sets up the story
2) actually winnable dungeons because of fucking bat spam
3) the full-healing items - or at least I never saw one spawn.

Man oh man have I seen the light. I actually made it to the third stage on one credit with Rastan Saga. Moral of the story: don't trust World ROMs.

The world version is even better in this regard! Off the top of my head, I remember that the king/Baarogue's first line "How good that you have come!" becomes "How well you came!" Princess Sarasa's "Thank you for helping us!" at the end becomes "Thank you for the important thing!"

Thank you for the important thing is pretty endearing. It feels... life-affirming.

I really enjoyed watching play through the game.

There is something incredibly wistful and nostalgic the way Taito occasionally closed its games with that "fade to old photograph" trick (Gun Frontier comes immediately to mind; Dead Connection kinda does it too). I love it, like you are a traveler on your way to more adventure; this game is one more memory in the scrapbook for you to look back on.

Given the differences between the versions, do you prefer the US or World version?

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh shit, I didn't know about that. I always defaulted to the Japanese "Rastan Saga" purely for the aesthetic bonus's of the unique intro and stage clear texts.

Only good thing about the world rom is that the generic stage-clear text makes a good image macro.



*FLEX*

[BrianC]

I didn't realize the World and JP versions of Rastan had so many differences. The cutscenes being cut from the world version is especially perpelxing since they are already in English. I played a bit of the SMS version of the everdrive and almost feels like a different game. Unlike the arcade (World and JP versions), Rastan can't move while swinging his sword.