NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:

[FBX]

Update:

My BNC cables adapters came in and I've got both my composite NES and RGB-modded NES hooked up to the PVM. Let me just say that I'm blown away at how good even composite NES looks on these monitors! The colors look quite a bit more pure and accurately represented than my other CRT I was previously using.

So where does this leave the current progess status? Well I'm now waiting on an arcade card coming in the mail on loan from RetroRGB. This card will hook into my computer and allow me to output emulators in 240p to the PVM. If the card does exactly as it claims, I'll be able to adjust the RGB entries for the NES on-the-fly until they line up with the composite full screen colors. This will in effect make a palette specifically for CRT users that reproduces the exact same appearance of each color.

So I'll post another update in a few days after I've got the cards hooked up. Crossing fingers it will work!

[Artemio]

I've never used an arcade card. But does it use the NTSC color space? Do the signal voltages align with the NTSC values?

Considering that, do emulators output in full range or limited take rgb on top of what the arcade card does?

[nakedarthur]

I've never used an arcade card. But does it use the NTSC color space? Do the signal voltages align with the NTSC values?

Considering that, do emulators output in full range or limited take rgb on top of what the arcade card does?

Arcade cards output pure analog RGB, it's basically the same as VGA but half the frequency (15khz vs 31khz).

[FBX]

I've never used an arcade card. But does it use the NTSC color space? Do the signal voltages align with the NTSC values?

Considering that, do emulators output in full range or limited take rgb on top of what the arcade card does?

Here's the link to the cards in question:

https://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

However, it doesn't really matter in that I also have the NESRGB hooked into the PVM to compare results with the Arcade card. If the two look different using the same RGB values, I'll be able to compensate for that difference.

[Artemio]

Arcade cards output pure analog RGB, it's basically the same as VGA but half the frequency (15khz vs 31khz).

Thanks, I do know about that. However I was wondering about the voltage levels and the color space.

However, it doesn't really matter in that I also have the NESRGB hooked into the PVM to compare results with the Arcade card. If the two look different using the same RGB values, I'll be able to compensate for that difference.

I understand. Analogue to having an original unmodded NES via composite and the NESRGB via composite and comparing.

I ask because as you know I checked the values long ago between the NESRGB composite and an unmodded NES via composite using a vectorscope. I used the palette that was the latest at the time (nesrgb17_1_playchoice_2_unsaturated-v5_3_yuv-v3), but the values were different.

I post these not trying to offend or attack. I love your work. I am just asking about the ArcadeVGA since we don't know how far away its values are, which are probably way off, on top of using emulation. And just trying to save you some time on that regard, or help yu consider the possibilities.

Some samples:

Unmodded NES:

NESRGB via composite:



Unmodded NES:

NESRGB via composite:



Unmodded NES:

NESRGB via composite:


Unmodded NES:

NESRGB via composite:


Unmodded NES:

NESRGB via composite:



If someone wants to take a look at the results I took back then (in June with the nesrgb17_1_playchoice_2_unsaturated-v5_3_yuv-v3 palette), here is a zip with the whole set I made.

http://junkerhq.net/nescolor/vectorscope.zip

I know we strive for the best approximation possible, since obviously the original NES signal is all over the place. But I believe you could have an easier job by measuring and approximating the values that way.

PD Ignore the colors in the captures, they were made from the vectorscope screen via VGA with an Xcapture. The values are what matter.

[nakedarthur]

Arcade cards output pure analog RGB, it's basically the same as VGA but half the frequency (15khz vs 31khz).

Thanks, I do know about that. However I was wondering about the voltage levels and the color space.

However, it doesn't really matter in that I also have the NESRGB hooked into the PVM to compare results with the Arcade card. If the two look different using the same RGB values, I'll be able to compensate for that difference.

I understand. Analogue to having an original unmodded NES via composite and the NESRGB via composite and comparing.

I ask because as you know I checked the values long ago between the NESRGB composite and an unmodded NES via composite using a vectorscope. I used the palette that was the latest at the time (nesrgb17_1_playchoice_2_unsaturated-v5_3_yuv-v3), but the values were different.

I post these not trying to offend or attack. I love your work. I am just asking about the ArcadeVGA since we don't know how far away its values are, which are probably way off, on top of using emulation. And just trying to save you some time on that regard, or help yu consider the possibilities.

I know we strive for the best approximation possible, since obviously the original NES signal is all over the place. But I believe you could have an easier job by measuring and approximating the values that way.

PD Ignore the colors in the captures, they were made from the vectorscope screen via VGA with an Xcapture. The values are what matter.

RGB is its own colorspace, it does not use NTSC encoding or YUV colorspace. Not sure about the voltage levels though since I've never checked them. These cards are used to mimic the RGB output from original arcade boards for CRTs though so I'd assume its the same.

I think FBX's goal with this is to approximate the colors a CRT is actually showing, not what is coming from the raw signal. He used a different method to get the composite RGB values.

[Artemio]

RGB is its own colorspace, it does not use NTSC encoding or YUV colorspace. Not sure about the voltage levels though since I've never checked them. These cards are used to mimic the RGB output from original arcade boards though so I'd assume its the same.

You are right, I used the wrong term. I meant if it is using full range of NTSC (setup at 7.5) range. And if emulators follow that. That would affect his tests.

I think FBX's goal with this is to approximate the colors a CRT is actually showing, not what is coming from the raw signal. He used a different method to get the composite RGB values.

Indeed, but what the CRT shows will be different based on what it gets from the input signal

[nakedarthur]

RGB is its own colorspace, it does not use NTSC encoding or YUV colorspace. Not sure about the voltage levels though since I've never checked them. These cards are used to mimic the RGB output from original arcade boards though so I'd assume its the same.

You are right, I used the wrong term. I meant if it is using full range of NTSC (setup at 7.5) range. And if emulators follow that. That would affect his tests.

I think FBX's goal with this is to approximate the colors a CRT is actually showing, not what is coming from the raw signal. He used a different method to get the composite RGB values.

Indeed, but what the CRT shows will be different based on what it gets from the input signal

If you use Nestopia for instance you can output straight RGB with your own custom palette, that shouldn't be a problem.

Good point though, the NTSC Setup level and the Chroma / Phase for the composite input on the PVM will need to be properly calibrated if they haven't. I believe his monitor should have an auto-calibrate for NTSC source but you need SMPTE color bars to do it. (not sure of the model number)

[FBX]

I used the palette that was the latest at the time (nesrgb17_1_playchoice_2_unsaturated-v5_3_yuv-v3), but the values were different.

That's ancient history. This was the last one I did as far as direct capture:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/Nos ... (FBX)..zip

It's a pal file that you can load into emulators like Nestopia for example. If you just want to see the values, here's an image of them:

[RGBSource]

Have you already forgotten that you have inaccurate capture HW? While I think you've tried your earnest to accurately capture the palette via the NES' composite out, you've taken quite the emperor's clothing approach to skirting your lack of ability/capability! Why you haven't discussed this mystery with me?!

http://rgbsource.blogspot.com/2016/10/c ... color.html

YW!

[tjstogy]

How is this jab productive? You've both contributed amazing work, why not work together instead of putting the other down? This community is about comradery, dude, and your remarks easily could've been in a PM instead of shitting on someone on public forum. Could you help contribute your talents to our current endeavors instead?

Have you already forgotten that you have inaccurate capture HW? While I think you've tried your earnest to accurately capture the palette via the NES' composite out, you've taken quite the emperor's clothing approach to skirting your lack of ability/capability! Why you haven't discussed this mystery with me?!

http://rgbsource.blogspot.com/2016/10/c ... color.html

YW!

[panzeroceania]

Update:

My BNC cables adapters came in and I've got both my composite NES and RGB-modded NES hooked up to the PVM. Let me just say that I'm blown away at how good even composite NES looks on these monitors! The colors look quite a bit more pure and accurately represented than my other CRT I was previously using.

I know right! Welcome to the broadcast monitor club. I hope you're enjoying it

another alternative to the ArcadeVGA card is the CRTemudriver software from Calamaty with select video cards

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/

[RGBSource]

You've both contributed amazing work, why not work together

In what capacity? I'll admit my post was a bit critical, but not entirely without warrant. I would have thought by now that a HW upgrade for accurate capture gear would have taken place. That doesn't appear to be the case, and the result was a rationalization to continue using the same gear instead of upgrading.

[bobrocks95]

Talking about capture hardware and then linking to your own website (especially when the page has nothing to do with capture hardware) only makes you look like an ass. FBX may need new capture hardware, but you're not offering suggestions, just self-promoting.

[FBX]

FBX may need new capture hardware

I'm going for a Magewell card (of which friends in the retro-gaming community have highly praised). This model in particular:

http://www.magewell.com/pro-capture-hdmi/tech-specs

I don't think anyone could complain about those specs. Covers both RGB 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:4:4

[FinalBaton]

(tinfoil hat time)

I'm pretty sure that RGBSource is an alt of RGB32E : not only do they both constantly ridicule FBX's efforts, but they also have the same style of humour and same way of writing (with references contained in URL link over text that is in relation to the reference).

(I still love your NESCAP palette RGBSource, please don't be mad at me for unveiling your true identity, I'm sorry bud)

[Guspaz]

I thought it was obvious. It was supposed to be a secret that he was RGB32E? If so, it was a pretty poor attempt: an alt account that does exactly the same thing as the old account isn't exactly trying to hide.

[austin532]

So, any new updates or did RGB32E ruin this little party we had going on here?

[FBX]

Waiting on shipment from RetroRGB for the arcade card. We're condensing a few different things into one package, so some stuff is in queue returning to him.

Also been very busy with Framemeister profiles again.

[RGB0b]

Waiting on shipment from RetroRGB for the arcade card.

100% totally my fault on the delay. Unfortunately, I probably won't get to my storage area till next week, so I might not be able to get it to FBX for another week. Sorry about that!

[FBX]

Waiting on shipment from RetroRGB for the arcade card.

100% totally my fault on the delay. Unfortunately, I probably won't get to my storage area till next week, so I might not be able to get it to FBX for another week. Sorry about that!

No worries at all. I've got a lot on my plate for the time being with Framemeister profiles.

[RGB32E]

You guys are hilarious!!!

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p1154484

I thought RGB32E was also Bob who writes RetroRGB. So imagine my confusion when you started talking to each other

I thought this too!

"Never The Same Color" dead horse drum beating shall continue to sate the fervent admirers!

[leonk]

...

[austin532]

Round 5 from Monster Party uses the same Purple sky as Super Mario Bros. It definitely looks more natural here with the creepy atmosphere of the game where as SMB I can live with either one.

[Voultar]

Keeping beating that drum, fellas! Voultar is in your corner!

[austin532]

Keeping beating that drum, fellas! Voultar is in your corner!

Damn straight, we must all work together.

Here's Ducktales 2 using the same SMB sky. The blue looks more natural here.

[leonk]

what is on the left and what is on the right? Also, which one do you think is more "correct"?

[austin532]

Left is the latest Nostalgia FBX and right is the CRT Nostalgia as it stands right now. As for which is correct that's hard to say. The purple looks nice in MP and SMB but looks wrong in DT 2. Where as the blue looks ok in MP but still great in SMB and DT 2.

[Elrinth]

if you look in the Monster Party image you can see there is blues in the bottom... I'm going to say I prefer the purple one. If they wanted to use blue, they could've used the blue which is in the bottom.
It is WAY too similar to the blue of the sky in the right image. The blue in the duck tales 2 does indeed look better, but they could've just used the one from the water in Monster Party. So I'm going to say I like the Nostalgia FBX better.

Either this or we should change the color of the water in the right aswell, the blue colors are waaay too similar.

[FBX]

Arcade card on its way!

I can hardly wait to set this up on the PVM. Should make for some interesting results.