Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

The one thing that has always stuck with me about SW, and killed any desire to even do a return trip in search of some redeeming values, is the ungodly awful collisions and impacts. The lightsaber in particular makes you feel more like your gently brushing enemies away with a broom then delivering any kind of blow or slice.

[__SKYe]

Alright, I finally got a 1-ALL for Super Contra (NES).

Here's a pic of the start of loop 2, with the score (though I miss the heli with the flags):



Managed to clear it with 5 lives to spare, after previously not even reaching the last stage without continuing.

Very nice game, and again, an excellent follow-up to the first Contra.
Time to tackle the next one (and that Ninja Gaiden, too).

[Sumez]

Got started on Mr Gimmick yesterday, and god damn am I immediately enamored with this game!

After years of thinking it was just a run of the mill cute platformer (as most people probably would), and still regretting my choice to go with Kirby's Dream Land instead of this back in the days, my eyes opened when I saw Cyghfer speedrun it for AGDQ 2013, the technique and depth of the controls in this game is really something else.

Even then, you really have to play the game - and put some time into it - to really see what it has to offer!

One thing is the insane production value, the look and sound, and the interconnected stage design that all feel more like a 16bit game, but there are so many unique touches that put it far above anything else on the platform when it comes to attention to detail! The way the stages develop and are filled to the brim with creative ideas that only show up once. I'm particularly fond of the stage that has you jump through a jungle and sail to a desert on the back of a dinosaur, from where you work your way through a temple and on to the summit of a rock where you will fight a newly hatched bird - all on the same stage.
Let's not forget the physics engine or whatever you'd call it, that affects every object in the game in similar ways, which adds a lot of "weight" to how the game plays, and how all the enemies have their own AI that really give them a lot of personality

More than anything though, the game stands out for playing like nothing else - the controls are highly unique, somewhere inbetween Mario and Sonic, and while they are hard to get a hang of at first, they are in no way bad. With the star riding techniques to top it off, this feels like a game I could play forever and always continue to improve at, learning new ways to master the various obstacles and puzzle-like rooms.
For now though, I'm absolutely horrible, and have a hard time seeing through a lot of the challenges, especially the bosses (dat stage 5 boss!) - and once I got that down, I still have the treasures to find, all seemingly really well hidden (I refuse to use a guide because I want to find them myself )

[Shoryukev]

I've been curious about Mr Gimmick for quite awhile now, it looks like a really quality game. It's a shame it never came to the US. Eventually I'll probably get a repro or just get an everdrive, I need to give it a shot. The star riding mechanics look incredibly interesting and deep.

[Sumez]

The PAL version unfortunately does not run well on NTSC systems even though the game plays with the same timing as the Jap version except with faster music (as with most other SunSoft games).

But I got a good offer on the PAL version, so my plan is to eventually sell it in favor of a Famicom cart.

[BIL]

Oof, ain't had as much time as I'd like here lately. Its late and muh brain's going. 3; Now - what in the heck! Sumez you sneaky muhfucka, I'd assumed you were a longtime card-carrying member of the Gimmick Elitist Owner's Club! But I am glad you have gotten acquainted with it! Truly one of the finest sidescrollers you could have in your NES/FC library. High technology and hardcore game design rarely come together so well.

Besides the obviously formidable production value, stiff platformer challenge and inimitably weird/cute atmosphere (without ever relying on Monster Party-esque tackiness, there are so many unforgettably unique scenes)... what stands out most to me is the highly reactive enemy AI. The game's weapon-wielding enemies in particular wouldn't be out of place in the most hardcore of combat sidescrolling. Combined with the unique attack method and expertly weighted handling, it's strong, punishing stuff!

It's also, along with Contra III, one of my favourite examples of stealth arcade difficulty for console. Chop the extend rate and add a timer, and this could go straight into a cab - especially with the treasure hunting system demanding you stick your neck out with a 1CC. A 1LC (even a 1CC) will be a hell of a good time for the hardcore.

My only criticism goes to a handful of borderline-cheap shots, a perennial vice of Sunsoft/Tokai. st3's treasure room and st4's offscreen archers both feel a little too sudden and unfair. Irrelevant in the scheme of things ofc. A remarkably charming production that could've probably gotten away with mere adequacy... obliterates the notion to dust.

The one thing that has always stuck with me about SW, and killed any desire to even do a return trip in search of some redeeming values, is the ungodly awful collisions and impacts. The lightsaber in particular makes you feel more like your gently brushing enemies away with a broom then delivering any kind of blow or slice.

I always like the rolling katana somersault move, so I harbour a very marginal interest in the SSWs. From what little I've played though, I just can't be bothered... reminds me of MD Aladdin, functional and attractively-produced, but cluttery and slapdash-feeling compared to my favourites where zakos connect with mortal consequence. One bat that'll clobber you into a pit is worth a million sandflies that'll nibble your HP en route to the next medikit!

(as fugly and cheapo as its digitised sprites are, I really love Shin Shinobi Den's katana roll - the game's slicing collision superbly channels classic samurai flick violence. Brush past airborne baddies just right, and kill 'em before they hit the ground. NINJA FIVE-O has one of my favourite rolling air attacks, no gore but the finesse touch is absolutely perfect, as are the game's mechanics in general!)

SUPER SPOILY GIFFU

Spoiler

[Sumez]

It's also, along with Contra III, one of my favourite examples of stealth arcade difficulty for console. Chop the extend rate and add a timer, and this could go straight into a cab - especially with the treasure hunting system demanding you stick your neck out with a 1CC. A 1LC (even a 1CC) will be a hell of a good time for the hardcore.

Did you 1LC it? I can imagine it being a really fun challenge. Despite not having done it yet, though, a 1CC doesn't seem like a horribly challenging task to me, despite the game's initial learning curve.

I have two more "issues" with Gimmick as an "arcade" game. First of all, the game basically gives you infinite lives, since the secret room on Stage 5 has two extra lives free for the taking, and they respawn every time you lose one. Of course this implies that you don't mind playing like a dweeb (i will probably abuse it mildly for my first good ending 1CC, but skip it afterwards), and it would be easy to cut it off.

More importantly though, I can't see this game working with arcade controls. It would be like Vs. Super Mario Bros. where half the challenge is actually just trying to regain the smooth control you would normally have over his velocity. This requires a ton of constant subtle almost subconscious taps back and forth on the D-pad, stuff that's almost impossible with a joystick - Mr. Gimmick has a lot of the same, and mastering the fine details of his movement is alpha and omega in this game. Most notable example of this would be dodging the falling rocks in that slippy slidey room on Stage 3.

Spoiler

[BIL]

Well, AC in spirit if not in interface. ;3 I'd not thought about stuff like Versus SMB, it does sound pretty uncomfortable.

Nope, no 1LC from me yet! Would be quite the commitment, at least for me (I think I'd be most worried about screwing up st4's treasure grab and falling, or just flat-out dying during st5's). Just the TLB 1CC for now, with a whole lotta mistakes!

What I like about Gimmick and Contra III/Hard is, it's not like they're any less rich or lethal when played more casually - they're totally unrestrained works. They just provide lots of extends to absorb mistakes, with the player free to set their own minimum standard. I'll always prefer this over a game simply watering itself down.

[Sumez]

The "final" boss on Stage 6 is really an amazing boss fight! I love the erratic behavior but constant flow that keeps the fight in motion at all times!

I have no fucking clue how they managed to turn out such an amazing piece of semirandomized AI on the NES! Hats off forever to SunSoft

Here's me finishing him off without taking damage on my second ever encounter with him, despite thinking I'd have to sacrifice a life to get a go at him with full health:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvAlpubLR6k

[BIL]

Helll yeah. Absolutely hardcore sidescroller combat. I don't call him Psychic Killer Yumetaromaru for nothin'.

I can't think of many other physics-intensive platformers with that toe-to-toe intensity. Even st2's pirate boss, as simple as he is, is one blood-crazed aggressor. I like how touching his fallen blade post-victory will still lethally cut you. Stand on the hilt for tick points - looks badass too.

[Sumez]

Yeah, the game is FULL of those little details, it's the first thing that makes people fall in love with it.
Here are the things I came across so far, that aren't immediately obvious:

The "spinies" (only 2 in the entire game :3) wag their tiny legs when you turn them on their back - standing on them will have them try to kick you off like conveyer belts.
Inside the small optional section in the ship is an enemy that doesn't move. You can control it with the P2 controller!
This is probably the most famous one from the game. Make it to the Stage 2 boss really fast and you'll catch him sleeping on the job.
The strange flying pink critters that look like something out of Metroid live in the hole on the far left of the underground cave that you find them in. There's no point to it, but you can follow them all the way back, and see them fly in there.
The guy on Stage 5 who fires rockets at you doesn't have any other way to attack you and will try to flee. Stand there without attacking him, and he will suicide by running into the water. (is it possible to kill him earlier in the stage, and if you do, does he still appear the second time?)
If you knock the enemy off the thing that chases you on the rails, you can ride it yourself and fire shots from it using the B button.
The guy you fight in the first part of the Stage 5 boss fight will do a little dance when you die to him or his robot.
Once a boss dies, you can actually leave their room again, and go back to earlier parts of the stage before you're automatically taken to the next one. (you can also just kill yourself without consequence)

Probably a lot more that I forgot.

Add other more obvious details like the booby-trapped treasure on stage 3, all the enemies that don't actually attack you (or attack you if you hurt their friend!), the ones that wear hats for no reason, and setpieces that only appear once in the entire game, and Gimmick is just LOADED with character.
I need to point out the springs as well. Rather than the stereotypical "hold jump to go higher", these first need to be set to work, and once you have used it once, you need to jump back on it once to "reload" it, with the mechanic behind it being very obvious from the graphics. They just put a lot of thought into all of these things. The game feels alive more than anything else inside your NES.


If I hadn't played the game and you just told me that Gimmick is entirely physics based with a ton of intertia on the movements and every enemy and object abiding to the same physics logic as the player, I'd have dismissed it as a shoddy western attempt at a platform game, or something like LittleBigPlanet that feels more like a big random sandbox than a tightly designed game. But somehow Gimmick masterfully manages to be both.
One of the things I love about the 8bit generation is how everything is coded to do just what it does! Cycles are saved where ever they can, enemies that are only meant to walk on floors aren't able to recognize ceilings, while the ones that aren't even supposed to move, don't even know what a floor is, etc. This always leads to extremely tight gameplay in an almost organic fashion, and is an element that is typically lost in almost every modern "retro" title (Shovel Knight is pretty much the only game I can think of that got it right). Gimmick, however, has none of that. Every enemy has the insane overhead of the physics engine - and not only does the game somehow manage to almost completely avoid slowdown in spite of this (while four enemies that don't even check for collisions with the level map will cause Mega Man 3 to crawl to a halt), it also manages to retain the classic tight 8bit gameplay. Well fucking played, SunSoft!

[BrianC]

More importantly though, I can't see this game working with arcade controls. It would be like Vs. Super Mario Bros. where half the challenge is actually just trying to regain the smooth control you would normally have over his velocity.

I like playing Vs. SMB on a real Famicom with the Everdrive. One thing worth mentioning is that there is a patch that turns the EU version of Gimmick into the US Prototype. I tried it on the Everdrive and both the music and gameplay are at the correct speed (music is also at the correct pitch). The original JP version with expansion sound has better audio, but the non expansion sound version is good for playing on systems not wired for expansion sound like the stock US NES.

[Sumez]

My US Toploader is wired for expansion sound
Akumajou Dracula is that important to me.

[Sumez]

Just randomly found this one weird trick to get to the stage 2 treasure without risking your life! Man, this game is so full of fun possibilities like this.

Spoiler

[BIL]

Holy shit, nice. That definitely takes a bit of pressure off! I love that there's a bomb pickup waiting right there on the mast, too. I eventually got reasonably comfortable with the "normal" method, but it's about the only thing I really worried about in the game's first half.

I didn't even know until these last sessions, you can have the game's very first zako follow you all the way over to the right for a boost up to the ledge. Obviously using the star is quicker, but still... it's so cute how they'll soldier on against the conveyor belt. ^__^

---

Aaand that's enough Holy Diver for this weekend. Got a 1CC this evening, with a couple deaths apiece in stages 4-6. Bit shaky! What's also shaky is my estimation of this game's staff. 3: I've long considered HD's appeal one of reification. A true incarnation of that mythically cruel NES sidescroller, the one casuals tend to mischaracterise eminently reasonable games like Castlevania, Contra and Ninja Gaiden as. I still value it on that score, far too much to ever part with my copy. It's a very distinctive Eastern torture device.

What I'm no longer convinced of is that its staff understood those staples any better than their scrubby victims. I'd wondered how a game ostensibly dedicated to the hardest of hardcore action could've been released with such abysmally faulty controls. Buttons failing to register whenever the pad is engaged? In what fucking universe is that acceptable? Surely the most fundamental thing in hardcore gaming is a reliable interface? Then there's the blinding sprite dropout... where we're going, you won't need eyes. Or at least they won't help you, not without a honed sixth sense for timing and tracking invisible projectiles.

Then I remember: "bad controls" are a stock part of scrub lore. As in: "I impulsively jumped for no real reason and a skeleton fisted me. Castlevania has bad controls!" And when the player's not really responsible for their screwups, what's an invisible bullet or two? And far less damningly yet more insidiously, the uncharacteristic generosity of the game's infinitely respawning HP+MP restores, making astonishingly bumpy damage-boosting play not just viable but advisable? Finally, it hits me. There's nothing "uncharacteristic" about any of this. It's what they intended all along. It was never my hardcore being actualised here.

It was theirs.

That's the only way I can rationalise it all, anyway. The alternative is a sidescroller that demands frame-perfect jumps yet can't even guarantee working controls. Incompetence beats outright larceny. I think I understand Raf World and Alisia Dragoon's control issues now, too. >_> Will certainly revisit HD down the road but for now, uh... I'm gonna play The Ninja Warriors Again over the holidays, I think. I need some powerfully anti-bad controls.

Things I like more about HD now: Breaker's pointblank is a great mechanic. Incredibly satisfying smacking it onto large enemies for an emphatic instakill.

Things I like less: Holy cow does this game have crash bugs. Can't check hardware atm but consulting Funkdoc's notes, it seems even on a real FC it'll sometimes hang post-st5/st6 bosses. Had a thoroughly-dismembered Black Slayer refuse to commence his final assault twice, these runs. I'd consider this a win for the player by default, tbh (the last bit is comically easy - glorified Gradius brain).

Best bit remains the penultimate room in the depths of st6, which divested of shitty controls would be an apotheosis of Cruel Knockback Death. Homing raspberries a GOAT pest. Knockback feels NASA-engineered.

Animated GIF: Stage 6 "BLACK SLAYER"

Spoiler

As usual I return to NG to cleanse the palate, so to speak. I was thinking a few weeks back with NGII, how much more interesting its mini versions of NG1 bosses are than their inspirations. Even Mini Barbarian is less useless than his NG1 basis! Low-hitbox ledge-guarder asshole! :O

Animated GIF: Mini Berserker gon cut choo mayne

Spoiler

And of course so are NG1's equivalents:

Animated GIF: Captain Underpants & Scabies Lad > Bloody Malth

Spoiler

Hey don't call me inconsistent PLS :[ "Basaquer" is just butt-ugly romanisation, "Malth/Mars" and "Jaquio/Jaki-ou" are cool! I'm still not sure about "Kerebross/Cerberus" tbh!

I do think it'd have been neat for Ryu vs Joe to play out something more like these. I mean peep this fanart FFS:

[Sumez]

Holy Diver is broken as fuck!

[BIL]

It really is. God bless Funkdoc - the man must've been carved from granite, to not only withstand but overcome the toxic mix of brutal difficulty and slipshod code. I seem to encounter a new crash bug with every session - here's what happened when I nailed a Death Ghidora with Thunder, right as the Blizzard I'd just used to freeze some lava and Overdrive a Metal Blade exhausted. Sound involved? It is! Rollicking good methodical fun. Until...

(seizure warning!)

Spoiler

Left it like that for ten minutes with various button combos tried, wouldn't budge. "BS" indeed! Oh well.

The programmers shitting the bed aside, st4 boss/Golden Babylon is my main concern for a serious run. It's the absolute nexus of HD's legitimate difficulty (woo!) and shoddy quality (fml). There's little you can do to mitigate the risk of a swift death, even before factoring in the technical shitshow. The total package plays like a nine year-old boy's idea of The Hardest NES Boss Evar.

"The boss shoots nonstop from point-blank at random intervals! And one hit will dump 'em in the pit if they're not camped on the platform's last pixel!" :O
"Sounds good Timmy! That'll be one humdinger test of reflexes, ha ha!"
"Yeah! And also, the crappy coding makes the bullets invisible!" ;D
"What the fu-"
"And also, if the player has to react suddenly to the random, invisible bullets, the control glitch will kill him. It's preeetty tough!" ;]
*gunshot*

Thank god Metal Storm didn't turn out this way. I'd scream like Al Pacino at the end of Godfather III. Then I'd fucking kill myself. :O

Also... dunno how I'd missed it until now, but after a little reading I finally twigged this game's handling model. Level design most definitely follows Castlevania's treachery hop, but the malleable moonjumps and total emphasis on projectiles always stopped me accepting direct comparisons (or even an NG-style "pro ROMhack"). Floaty air control, deceptively lethal hitstun juggle, hori/vert shot with a selection of "beams," jump boots and varia suit... yo, this is friggin' Metroid. Rejigged for sequential stage progression + character upgrades, with the crucial addition of pits. The original and true "Metroidvania," you might say.

The resemblance is uncanny - and further cements HD in my mind as less arcade-thoroughbred gauntlet, more loose yet exceptionally cruel home original. Lack of QA aside, the bizarrely easy HP/MP farming certainly makes more sense in the latter context.

[BrianC]

I watched videos of and tried out the Lynx Ninja Gaiden III. It seems like a good port, but, like the SNES version, it's also missing parallax. Especially perplexing, since games on Lynx like Pac Land and Rygar use parallax scrolling.

[Squire Grooktook]

On the verge of clearing Rastan Saga.

This game might be really rough around the edges and clunky in parts, but I really feel there's something magical about it. It's got a lot of great things: unpredictable enemies (especially the castle guards who can sneak in a bloody strike at any time), some very exhilarating and tense trap-focused platforming, and absolutely formidable Barbarian/DnD atmosphere that gels excellently with the Castlevania-precise platforming, slashing, and clever trap placement.

It may not be as technically sound as something like Ninja Spirit, but this is definitely an honorable mention in my pantheon of side scrolling arcade action games.

[soprano1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSKWihjkk04
Trailer for Shantae Half Genie Hero. It might not be a big deal on gameplay, but it sure looks gorgeous.

[EmperorIng]

On the verge of clearing Rastan Saga.

If you can tell me how to deal with the precision-spawning bats that cling to your sprite and stack damage until you are at 10% health, well I might just go down on you.

[BrianC]

I should also mention that I bought the game and will post more impressions of NGIII Lynx when I play it on real hardware. Too bad most developers didn't seem to know how to make good use of the Lynx's sound chip. Lemmings and Shadow of the Beast prove that it's capable of good sound.

I played a bit of the Lynx Rygar. I like it so far, even though it's far from arcade perfect. I like how it uses the Japanese title screen (intro text seems to be different from US Rygar AC, as well). It has the oddity of not being able to aim up initially, but gameplay is solid.

[BIL]

It's a shame the SFC NGIII is so profoundly ugly to see and hear. It has a legit unique selling point, with its uniting of the more exciting US enemy+item layout and sensible JP damage scale. Objectively I'd say it's the best version in that regard. I can barely stand more than a couple stages with it treating the beautiful 8-bit original so poorly though... I occasionally give it a test run, in case I feel like picking up a copy, but always come away deflated. Having said this, the games do seem to play accurately, unlike the relatively presentable SFC Mario comp with its buggered SMB1+2 block breaking. Which I own.

Rastan and Rygar (AC) are rather glaring blind spots for me, considering my affections for their console contemporaries. Lots of my favourite people vouch for 'em, and they definitely made excellent first impressions on me - but by that same token, I'm overly comfy putting these legends off for another day while I return to digging about the margins.

Speaking of... Holy Diver's legit and bullshit aspects intertwine into something horribly compelling after a while. >_<

The priestess and the snake are one
The veil of flesh is ripped undone ♫

Also putting on your own tunes is pain_resist+1 Not something I normally ever do, but fuck a BGM reset after every pause in a game with such prodigious Start menu involvement.

[Squire Grooktook]

On the verge of clearing Rastan Saga.

If you can tell me how to deal with the precision-spawning bats that cling to your sprite and stack damage until you are at 10% health, well I might just go down on you.

Hmmm, usually a single slash is all that's necessary to destroy them. Due to the way they tend to wander about in your sprit, a standing or crouching attack sill sometimes wiff them, but the second one is all but guaranteed.

Also jumping and doing a sword plant seems pretty effective in consistently dissenting yourself from them.

I've posted it before, but worth linking this again.The games platforming manages to channel that swashbuckling feel every time despite its rudimentary nature.

[Kino]

.

[BIL]

Hell yeah. Love the tombstoning death from above downthrust in both games.

[Sumez]

Not a big fan of Rastan. I love the music, and the immediate action gameplay, but trying to get through it quickly gets to feel like a chore. It's that kind of awkward early arcade game where you need to know how to deal with specific situations in unintuitive ways to make your way through.
The Makyo Densetsu games feel like a much better alternative to me

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd say that's only an issue with some of the bosses, who are indeed rather gimmicky exploit driven walls (I have no idea what they were thinking with the wizard dude). The rest of the game is fairly intuitive: I've dealt with many individual stage sections blind, even though they sometimes mess me up later on. I wouldn't say you need that much memo (the enemy actions and placement are also kinda random anyway, always a plus). If you know how to beat the bosses and have a feel for the basic combat, then that's all you need to make it to the end IMO.

One thing I'll say is that it does feel a bit awkward at times. Not to the point that the action doesn't feel good, but there are strange little quirks to the physics, hitboxes, and sometimes hit-feedback that make it feel like it was the programmers first game. Still, the fundamentally rocking action carriers it even if it's not as air tight as some later classics. Maybe I'd even say that the rough, archaic feel is a part of its stone-age charm.

[Sumez]

there are strange little quirks to the physics, hitboxes, and sometimes hit-feedback that make it feel like it was the programmers first game.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. Also the castle sections with the jumping on chains while flying enemies come at you, stuff like that is nearly impossible to survive without being lucky with your timing or familiarising yourself with some of the underlying game mechanics.

I still do like the game, it just feels so awkward that I can never see it as a top arcade classic. After all, this thing was released the same year (and running on the same hardware) as Taito's own Rainbow Islands which is an absolutely perfected masterpiece.

[Squire Grooktook]

It has a few minor issues, but I don't think I'd ever call it "so awkward". Like basically, there are a few specific situations where it can be an issue, I'll list them and some thoughts:

-For example, IMO the most awkward thing that can happen is if you mistime a jump or sword plant and end up surrounded by enemies, you can take a BIG chunk of damage as enemies casually stroll through you thanks to the too small invulnerability window on damage.
*edit* ^^^Oh yeah, one other thing in regards to this: your sword slash hitbox is the actual sword. It does not extend into your body. So if an enemy or swattable projectile is standing inside you, a defensive slash won't be enough to knock it away, and you'll probably take a second hit. You need to kind of wrestle to get out of there.

-Another thing to keep in mind is the jump physics: while not necessarily bad, both small jumps and high jumps have an identical fixed horizontal travel distance despite their varying heights. This can be a bit unintuitive and can lead to some early deaths when you jump for a rope thinking the high jump will give you greater reach, yet plummet to your death anyway. Not really a bad thing and easily solved simply by knowing about it, as it doesn't really interfere with the combat or even the platforming much. Just something to keep in mind when dealing with rope swinging really.

-I think the swordplant would be better with a slightly wider hitbox. Sometimes if you have to jump down onto an area, and you stall long enough for several enemies to show up, their erratic movement can make it feel like luckshit to succesfully swordplant them all at once (and failure to do so often results in the survivor hitting you after landing). This is a rare occurrence and only really happens when you're playing like a slowpoke though.

-The Gargoyle man is stupid and has a stupid hitbox. His pattern is simple enough that he's not much of a problem though IMO.

But really, these are all minor things that rarely show up, and the moment to moment sword swinging, swashbuckling action feels great. If you think it's so awkward, I'd recommend playing it more because I think it's more accurate to say that it's a really smooth game with a few minor rough edges. On the technical/fundamental aspects, I'd say it's much more solid then other enjoyable but slightly borked games like Alisia Dragoon, Holy Diver, etc.

Also about bats: I don't think there's an issue there, at least. The bats are small and have tiny hitboxes, so hitting them mid air with your close range sword requires precise timing. They don't do much damage though so even if you fail every time (I don't find them that hard) it's unlikely they'll ever kill you. I think it's a perfectly fair challenge.