4K Blues

[brentsg]

Well, first of all, I'm going to be jealous of your Oppo.

Second, how granular are the settings on your tv? The HDFury can't force the display to cooperate. What HDR sources are you hooking up?

The Integral allows you to freely change HDCP versions, change chroma/bit depth, and it works as a splitter.

The Linker allows you to change chroma/bit depth, updates older HDCP to 2.2, and upscales/downscales between 4k and 1080p.

The TV is fine in the newly added HDR Game mode, but this is only available if the display detects HDR. Outside of this, the display locks into wide color gamut for the normal game mode. That's where the problem is introduced, with oversaturated colors.

The issue doesn't arise for my HDR sources (PS4 Pro, Xbox One S, future Oppo!) but for all other gaming sources where I can't select normal color gamut. As long as I'm not gaming, I'm not locked down like this.

[orange808]

Well, first of all, I'm going to be jealous of your Oppo.

Second, how granular are the settings on your tv? The HDFury can't force the display to cooperate. What HDR sources are you hooking up?

The Integral allows you to freely change HDCP versions, change chroma/bit depth, and it works as a splitter.

The Linker allows you to change chroma/bit depth, updates older HDCP to 2.2, and upscales/downscales between 4k and 1080p.

The TV is fine in the newly added HDR Game mode, but this is only available if the display detects HDR. Outside of this, the display locks into wide color gamut for the normal game mode. That's where the problem is introduced, with oversaturated colors.

The issue doesn't arise for my HDR sources (PS4 Pro, Xbox One S, future Oppo!) but for all other gaming sources where I can't select normal color gamut. As long as I'm not gaming, I'm not locked down like this.

Ok. The Integral can force HDR for you. That's the one to get.

Unfortunately, I don't have an HDR capable display to test the feature myself.

Looks like you will need to edit the infoframe as well--and down the rabbit hole we go..

[Blair]

The DVDO Micro is plenty fast, but the ringing issue is difficult to explain.

Strange though, I haven't had the same issues with massive ringing that your earlier screenshots indicated. (on my unit), Although contrast and white balance get a little crazy going through the micro, but I haven't had a lot of time to take screenshots and figure out what's going on with it.

I did use it with the OSSC. it actually seem to work pretty well (line double and line triple all worked fine), although it freaked out when I enabled scanlines.

As for downscaling 4k to 1080p, I can't see how that applies to gaming. Real 4k gaming doesn't exist. (Using an upscaler isn't 4k, Sony.

I'm not sure what you mean now, you mentioned something about using downscaling in your setup. Was that a typo?

Also I'm not sure what you consider to be "real 4K gaming", but there are several games out right now that output in 4K natively, although the PC is the best place for that at the moment. From what I remember hearing the latest tomb raider on the PlayStation 4pro can output in 4k30, I would assume more games will be arriving in the future with that capability.

[ZellSF]

A lot of PS4 Pro 4K games render in non-native 4K resolutions like 1900p. Though I'm not sure how that relates to his point since downscaling 1900p to 1080p still looks nicer than native 1080p.

I wonder how all our "all scaling looks like a blurry mess" people here feel about downscaling.

[orange808]

The DVDO Micro is plenty fast, but the ringing issue is difficult to explain.

Strange though, I haven't had the same issues with massive ringing that your earlier screenshots indicated. (on my unit), Although contrast and white balance get a little crazy going through the micro, but I haven't had a lot of time to take screenshots and figure out what's going on with it.

I did use it with the OSSC. it actually seem to work pretty well (line double and line triple all worked fine), although it freaked out when I enabled scanlines

Interesting. My Micro's ringing was easy to point out if you were close to the display.

Could you post some pictures? I think many people around here would be interested, because affordable 4k scaling is scarce.

I sold my Micro, so I can't look into it further.

[Blair]

Interesting. My Micro's ringing was easy to point out if you were close to the display.

Could you post some pictures? I think many people around here would be interested, because affordable 4k scaling is scarce.

I sold my Micro, so I can't look into it further.

I think I figured out what the problem is on the Micro. seems that it's video output is essentially the same as a stock/default vp50(non-Pro). regular Vp50's have a sharpness setting of -1 to +6. they default to "0" however this zero setting is actually too sharp and its neutral/off sharpness setting is actually -1.

unfortunately the micro doesn't have the ability to control this feature (well, technically it does but in the wrong direction, as the enhancement feature is nothing more than various levels of sharpening)

the micro is permanently in that "0" sharpened state. this is a problem for some displays. for instance my Samsung's own internal sharpness value is neutral at "0". it can't go any lower than that. but my Dell monitor actually has a negative sharpness value (below its neutral state). which is capable of defeating the ringing on the micro. which is probably why it doesn't look that bad to me (I'll post pictures later if you're still interested).

after watching some interviews and promotional material I sometimes think that the ringing inherent with some DVDO products is actually intentional, we see it as unpleasant and unnatural. while some other people see it as sharpness/and clarity. very strange.

the micro could be a viable scaler, as long as it's paired with a display capable of defeating the default sharpness and allowing it to take a step or two back. (the biggest weakness of the micro besides not really having geometry controls, is its terrible handling of 480i interlaced content).

it really wouldn't cost much to make it work with specific systems (component to HDMI transcoder's would be a must). everything from the six generation (as long as you don't play anything interlaced. ps2 would need something like the exploder HDTV elf file installed to be usable), and of course the Wii/WiiU, Xbox 360, and PS3 would probably work fine. (as long as they're all outputting 720p). all of this hooked up to a very low cost six port HDMI hub would be a pretty nice set up with the right monitor.

(micro works very well for an original GameCube and ps3 I tested it with recently).

[brentsg]

Well, first of all, I'm going to be jealous of your Oppo.

Well the Oppo UDP-203 will be here on Thursday, so I held off on the HDFury parts briefly. Will be interesting to see what the 203 does with scaling things like DirecTV for now.. then can add the HDFury stuff in a month or two.

[Fudoh]

I haven't followed the 203 thread on the AVS boards. Do we know what video processing it has ? HDMI input still available ? I was surprised by their 101 player in late 2015 (which is available through installers only) on which they returned to a ABT processor (compared to their 103 series).

Do you have another Oppo to do a comparion ?

[Blair]

i've heard some rumors that the next Xbox (scorpion?) might have some scaling features similar to the Oppo. didn't the original Xbox one have some type of processed HDMI input/output? only thing I remember about it is people saying it had lots of input lag.

[Blair]

Could you post some pictures?

here are some shots of OSSC 240p line 3X mode on the iscan micro, displayed on my Dell with its sharpness setting at -1

I'm not noticing any major ringing issues. looks pretty okay to me.


Iscan Micro 1080p output+OSSC 240p line 3X

[orange808]

Thanks for the pics. Nice to see it on another display.

Quick questions: what does it look like if you don't adjust the sharpness and use the display's "stock" game mode setting? How does the Micro stack up to the OEM scaler?

[Harrumph]

Hmm strange, didn't Try from MLiG report that the Micro was incompatible with OSSC linetriple? (Framemeister alternatives episode)

[Guspaz]

It may depend on the console, since different consoles use different timings. Heck, in extreme cases, even different apps on the same console. My OSSC is perfectly happy to sync to both GBI-LL and GBI-ULL, but my projector won't accept GBI-ULL at line 2x, but it will accept GBI-LL at line 2x.

[Blair]

Thanks for the pics. Nice to see it on another display.

Quick questions: what does it look like if you don't adjust the sharpness and use the display's "stock" game mode setting? How does the Micro stack up to the OEM scaler?

you're welcome!

without the sharpness adjustment output from the micro is a bit too sharp, and that's when you'll start to notice too much contrast around certain objects (the start of ringing). the internal scaler on this monitor is a bit soft, but not terrible. it does a fairly good job deinterlacing (especially compared to the micro), although I'm unsure of how much input lag its interlace processing adds.

Hmm strange, didn't Try from MLiG report that the Micro was incompatible with OSSC linetriple? (Framemeister alternatives episode)

originally I also had some trouble getting it to work, setting the TX mode from DVI to HDMI helped out things quite a bit.

It may depend on the console, since different consoles use different timings. Heck, in extreme cases, even different apps on the same console. My OSSC is perfectly happy to sync to both GBI-LL and GBI-ULL, but my projector won't accept GBI-ULL at line 2x, but it will accept GBI-LL at line 2x.

exactly, having to fiddle with the settings is something you definitely have to try. also not to knock the MLiG guys but they weren't very thorough in that episode, which makes sense as they were on a deadline and borrowing hardware from other people.

[Harrumph]

Hmm strange, didn't Try from MLiG report that the Micro was incompatible with OSSC linetriple? (Framemeister alternatives episode)

originally I also had some trouble getting it to work, setting the TX mode from DVI to HDMI helped out things quite a bit.

Good to know. Tbh I think it seems to do a great job, but as you said, a bit dependent on monitor/TV sharpness settings capabilities. Might be one of the better recommendations for people having compatibility issues, considering the price, size, and availability...
Btw this Dell monitor is 1080p right, judging by the close-ups?
Also, I could see from the spec sheet that 4k is 4:2:0, but is upscaling to 1080p done in 4:4:4?

[Fudoh]

processing on all DVDOs is 4:2:2. Even if you set the output to 4:4:4 (on the units you can do this), you still get internal 4:2:2 processing with added upsampling.

[Blair]

Good to know. Tbh I think it seems to do a great job, but as you said, a bit dependent on monitor/TV sharpness settings capabilities. Might be one of the better recommendations for people having compatibility issues, considering the price, size, and availability...

it could work for some people, unfortunately its still not a one-size-fits-all solution when it comes to the OSSC. the micro combo worked fine with my Samsung television and Dell monitor, but I couldn't get it to work with any of my Asus monitors. (and I still haven't tried the micro with any of my CRTs yet).

Btw this Dell monitor is 1080p right, judging by the close-ups?

correct! it's the oldest variant of the E2311. which is a very confusing model to find information on (Dell has used that exact same model number for at least two newer models all with different specifications but the exact same case)

Also, I could see from the spec sheet that 4k is 4:2:0, but is upscaling to 1080p done in 4:4:4?

processing on all DVDOs is 4:2:2. Even if you set the output to 4:4:4 (on the units you can do this), you still get internal 4:2:2 processing with added upsampling.

I myself was also confused by the micro's spec sheet mentioning 4:2:0 processing in 4k, but it didn't specify Chroma subsampling on any other resolutions. Fudoh is likely correct as 4:4:4 processing seems to be relatively rare, but DVDO also neglected to mention how blazing fast the scaling engine was. about a microsecond (according to orange808's tests) instead of DVDO's usual 6ms, so who knows what the micro really is capable of. which makes me wonder what chip is actually powering it, and what it could do if made into a proper scaling device.

[Smashbro29]

I can't help but feel that when it comes to 4K we just need to wait for that next leap in upscaler technology. The OSCC2 or the FM2 or whatever it may be.

I know I'm waiting for the next standard to move ahead.

[bobrocks95]

I think the big problem right now is FPGA tech is struggling to hit the pixel clock needed for 1080p. Not sure when 4K will really be feasible for them, I have no clue how quickly FPGA hardware has been moving.

[orange808]

The reduced ringing when: scaling to 1080p and softening the picture settings is nice, but people reading the thread will likely be owners of 4k displays with terrible blurry OEM scaling.

Blair, could you label the photos as 1080p output pics for future readers of the thread?

[Blair]

Blair, could you label the photos as 1080p output pics for future readers of the thread?

Sure bro, (regardless of 4k or 1080p the problem and semi-solution would remain much the same, the display would need to defuse the oversharpened image from the micro).


orange808, you said something about the HD3000 not working with your 4k setup. could you elaborate on that? (did it just look bad? even when upscaled by the linker?)

thanks.

[orange808]

Blair, could you label the photos as 1080p output pics for future readers of the thread?

Sure bro, (regardless of 4k or 1080p the problem and semi-solution would remain much the same, the display would need to defuse the oversharpened image from the micro).


orange808, you said something about the HD3000 not working with your 4k setup. could you elaborate on that? (did it just look bad? even when upscaled by the linker?)

thanks.

I think you're referencing my comment on the GTX 1080. I tried out running some newer games at 4k and the frame rates dipped into the 20's. I can max out 1080p settings on any software I own--including the poorly optimized mess of Rise of the Tomb Raider. I don't own my own Oculus Rift, but it did fine as well.

There might be options, but my days of buying two video cards (Good ol' Voodoo 2 SLI!) are long over and done with. From where I'm sitting, the tech to play games at 4k isn't properly available right now.

The GTX 1080 is the benchmark and you can't really play 4k at 60 frames--and 60 is just table stakes.

As for console 4k gaming, I feel like it's false advertising.

[brentsg]

I haven't followed the 203 thread on the AVS boards. Do we know what video processing it has ? HDMI input still available ? I was surprised by their 101 player in late 2015 (which is available through installers only) on which they returned to a ABT processor (compared to their 103 series).

Do you have another Oppo to do a comparion ?

If I understand correctly, it has a new SoC co-designed by Oppo and Mediatek (OP8591). The player itself apparently has the hardware for Dolby Vision, so that is coming in the spring via firmware update. It does have 1 HDMI in, though at present it won't pass HDR and there are some audio sync bugs that need ironed (for the HDMI in).

I have a non-Darbee 103 also. Got the 203 early, so installed last night only to get sucked into a movie. Wasn't home tonight to tinker.

[Fudoh]

I have a non-Darbee 103 also. Got the 203 early, so installed last night only to get sucked into a movie. Wasn't home tonight to tinker.

Thanks! I'd be interested to hear how the deinterlacing of the two (103 <> 203) compares. I found it interesting that Oppo introduced the 101 only a year ago. Obviously in rather limited numbers and to my surprise they returned to a DVDO deinterlacing/scaling solution on that one.

[brentsg]

I have a non-Darbee 103 also. Got the 203 early, so installed last night only to get sucked into a movie. Wasn't home tonight to tinker.

Thanks! I'd be interested to hear how the deinterlacing of the two (103 <> 203) compares. I found it interesting that Oppo introduced the 101 only a year ago. Obviously in rather limited numbers and to my surprise they returned to a DVDO deinterlacing/scaling solution on that one.

I'll see what I can do. The 103 is in a different home theater setup and it's less accessible. There seem to be some early adopter issues to get thru from a firmware perspective on the 203. Basic things are mostly good but there are issues with the experimental HDR metadata stripping, audio/video sync using HDMI IN, a couple reports of frames skipped when playing disk (haven't seen it myself), etc. Good times in the AVS thread! Lots of fantastic talk about colorspace and such, learning to be had.

[SGGG2]

If you're looking for a 4K 3D OLED under market price, mine is up for grabs!

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=59086

[Woozle]

I think the big problem right now is FPGA tech is struggling to hit the pixel clock needed for 1080p. Not sure when 4K will really be feasible for them, I have no clue how quickly FPGA hardware has been moving.

Pretty sure the kintex7 fpgas from Xilinx can do 4K at 60hz directly from fpga I/O. 4K capability should hit the lower end fpga families within a generation or two. I have a kintex7 dev board but I need a new vivado license and lack a 4K TV, otherwise I would test it out.

What I'm waiting for is accessible 4k HDMI transmitter chips as that should enable 4K output from boards with cheaper fpga chips.

[Guspaz]

It looks like that one is 12.5 Gbps per transceiver (about double what HDMI 2.0 needs), and the cheapest version has 4 transceivers (sounds about right). Unfortunately, the cheapest version (with 4 transceivers) is still $133, not exactly cheap... but at least in the sort of ballpark it'd need to get into an enthusiast retro gaming product.

[Woozle]

It looks like that one is 12.5 Gbps per transceiver (about double what HDMI 2.0 needs), and the cheapest version has 4 transceivers (sounds about right). Unfortunately, the cheapest version (with 4 transceivers) is still $133, not exactly cheap... but at least in the sort of ballpark it'd need to get into an enthusiast retro gaming product.

It also has plenty of internal block memory, enough to be able to buffer up to ~2 240p frames at 24-bit/pixel if needed.

http://numato.com/skoll-kintex-7-fpga-d ... ent-board/

This board could potentially serve as the main board for a DIY 4k scaler. The FPGA is capable of 4k, but I'm not sure if the IO that's routed to the headers can do TMDS and 4k HDMI. Maybe someone else could look into it further.

[RGB0b]

I was curious about the results of some of the upscaler testing. I went back and re-read the last few pages and I don't think these questions were answered, but I'll apologize in advance if they were:

- HD Fury Linker vs Intergal: As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two is the Intergal has two outputs and also supports 720p upscailng, while the Linker has one output and will passthrough 720p, not upscale. Is that correct? If so, does that mean the Intergal will upscale the OSSC linetriple to 4k?

- Has anyone tested the lag added with the HD Fury devices? I'm trying to find an integer-scaling, 4K upscaler that's good for all HDMI gaming devices, including all the major consoles and the OSSC.

- Was there ever testing done on the new Oppo UHD blu-ray player?