Newer Raspberry Pi models for serious shmups?

[Pixel_Outlaw]

I too wish the hardware was more robust.
But again, it's a 35 dollar computer meant to be accidentally broken by school kids faffing around with the GPIO pins while learning to write programs in Python.
Microsoft can't get their shit together enough to run their normal OS on it and I think it's hilarious.

[Xyga]

But again, it's a 35 dollar computer meant to be accidentally broken by school kids faffing around with the GPIO pins while learning to write programs in Python.

How many of their sold units actually go there though ?

Also you can laugh at Microsoft but a similarily-powerful Atom machine running Windows destroys a damn Pi 3 in about everything: compatibility, stability, and depending on what but still nothing to laugh about: performance as well.
Sure you'll pay around 200 for it, and probably half of it is the OEM license...but it fucking works and compared to a Pi can be called hassle-free a million times over.
Last month I've bough a 195€ Vivobook on sale for my mom who needed a new very basic computer, that was shortly after spending time with the RPi 3...well fuck shit up, it buries the Pi for damned everything you want to do.
Some bare mini-PCs yet with more muscle and at least opening your world to x86, can also be found sub-200.

I guess choosing the Pi is a matter of being really broke, or stingy as hell, or loving the hype of messing with irritating sub-specs devices because it's cool.
Actually I think their Zero version makes more sense as a product, the main Pi line is always underpowered for its actual market (no I don't believe it's education) and so makes people buy new versions every once an a while, none yet being what it should to be really worth the time and money. People who have bought 2 or 3 versions of the Pi already aren't rare, how does that make sense ?
Again I think Rapsberry should be aiming at a better-rounded 50 bucks computer aiming at the most power for the price first, then offer along to install an actually decent Linux build, I've seen old stuff like Ubuntu running very well on lower-end machines so why the hell not ?
This is the thing with the Linux philosophy: it's too bothersome to improve Raspbian so they're waiting for someone else / the community to do it, and it might as well stay a convoluted, unstable mess forever.
I don't know why we criticize game developers who sell unfinished games but still praise Raspberry, really.

But that's just like, my opinion... :p

[Fudoh]

I guess choosing the Pi is a matter of being really broke, or stingy as hell, or loving the hype of messing with irritating sub-specs devices because it's cool.

it's the simplicity paired with the price. Getting is up and running is so much easier compared to any Windows x86 platform. Setting up a whole emulator suite within 5 minutes of getting a new machine ? Not possible with a Windows systems.

But speaking of cheap x86 machines: if you look into machines from China you get these pretty cheap. I recently bought a Trekstor W1 mini PC (atom based Mini PC) for just 100 EUR when Trekstor was introducing the successor. Of course it's multitudes better than the Pi, but getting this thing turned into an emulation box is just as much fun as using your every-day PC for emulation.

I mean, have a look at this: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/retr ... 15647127#/

Fucking $300,000 for a case with an Orange Pi running a SLIGHTLY modified emulation station image. That's what people want. Not something that boots into windows.

[Xyga]

Setting up a whole emulator suite within 5 minutes of getting a new machine ? Not possible with a Windows systems.

That's the one thing I don't criticize thr Pi for. Only in that aspect that it really could use some more raw power.

I mean, have a look at this: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/retr ... 15647127#/

Fucking $300,000 for a case with an Orange Pi running a SLIGHTLY modified emulation station image. That's what people want. Not something that boots into windows.

Yuck indeed. ><

No really my point (again slightly off-topic, sorry) is that the Pi is a bit too weak to run more demanding emulation, yet people keep buying the updated models every time in the hope it'll handle more systems... and that's useless until it gets a really big boost imho. Until then better buy a mini-pc that's just a a few tens of buck away. Though I understand people would be satisfied with just the retro-est stuff 'in a box'. Ok.

My problem with is that overall it doesn't have the scope of a single-use device (retro emu box, music box etc), the Zero does, even though it's too weak for things like emulation.
Yes the Pi could be a computer too, it's even offering you to install some OS (actually pseudo-OSes that don't really deserve the name) it's very close to be a more complete thing, yet it remains a half-witted product that doesn't really know it's place between the dedicated/single-purpose SoC, and what could be the champion of cheap mini-computers running on a free system.

I'm like that; I don't like products that don't have a clear positioning, sitting somewhere in the middle not able to provide their full potential on either end.
I'm saying that minding the price, if it dared go the extra mile giving all the output possible for 50 bucks and a real decent Linux build to go with it, I'd be 100% supporting the project.
But I can picture the coming years: every time a 20%~40% increase in actual performance (not the damn benchmarks) and people buying - again - the new model, over and over until their favourite more demanding emulators/games/player get decent speeds and compatibility. That and forever shitty Linux builds leaving the user starving for what could be the best anti-windows middlefinger machine.

I personally don't have much interest in sleek dedicated OS~UI's for old emus since I don't play that many anyway, just a select number of games on MAME and sometimes some SNES, but when I see that device screaming to me that it could do so much more with just a bit higher price/parts and a change of philosophy from the makers...it's frustrating. That's that, I won't bother with a Pi until it hits the spot.
So yeah to me a mini-pc is better, it's a bit more expensive, but immensely more capable/versatile at the time. Not for an emu box, but for nearly everything else, which is a lot.

[HalfCent]

I mean the Raspberry concept does have the potential to become the 50 bucks cheap basic desktop or dedicated machine that's not a used netbook/chromebook/tablet, but to me it's just too frustrating that it is apparently not aiming to be that,

I get your frustration, but you're right in that's never what the project was aiming to be. The project has always targeted developers, not consumers. Specifically because it's cheap, it's great for robotics, IoT projects, and other things like that. I can toss a pi zero into anything I want and not worry about it because they're so cheap, small, and have a low power draw.

The fact that they're used projects like Retropie is sort of a side effect of the pi's original goals. Developer's who are comfortable with the complexity of working with the pi made something (emulator in a box), and then people hear about it and want their own emulator in a box, so they buy them without realizing that the pi itself was never really meant for them.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Now that I think about it, I'd like to do a stress test using my model 1.
I'd like to try something like C++ and Allegro or SDL and see just how many shots I can get pumping out and collision checking.
If that goes well I'll try something as slow as Python with Pygame.

If people make shmups targeting the model 1 they can rest assured they will run even better in the later models.
Kenta Cho's games have been ported to Linux but they take a toll on my Intel Atom 900Mhz netbook with 2GB of RAM running Debian.

I have no idea the kind of games kids are being taught to make with this.
But I'm fairly sure they don't exceed the drain of danmaku sprite drawing (I think the graphics processing is the Achilles heel of the computer)

If I can get a danmaku using Pygame with reasonable performance you can bet I'll not bother with C++.
The nice thing about making shmups for the Pi is that you know they'll run super fast on desktop computers and every Pi owner has the same hardware.

So any Pi owners interested in me wasting a few hours to stress test my model 1 for bullet hell?
I'm willing to take complete failure of the Pi in stride and do a fair test for feasibility.

[Xyga]

I get your frustration, but you're right in that's never what the project was aiming to be. The project has always targeted developers, not consumers. Specifically because it's cheap, it's great for robotics, IoT projects, and other things like that. I can toss a pi zero into anything I want and not worry about it because they're so cheap, small, and have a low power draw.

The fact that they're used projects like Retropie is sort of a side effect of the pi's original goals. Developer's who are comfortable with the complexity of working with the pi made something (emulator in a box), and then people hear about it and want their own emulator in a box, so they buy them without realizing that the pi itself was never really meant for them.

Yeah somehow looking in reverse they made it too good for its original purpose.
I think they could make a parallel project (50 bucks w/ more juice + a good OS) although they might not be ready for that now they're probably one of the very few microcomputer makers with the strenght to do it.
Well, maybe they've thought of it but they're aware $150 Windows sticks featuring Atom Cherry trail are out there and think they it's too heavy competition...
Whatever.

[lettuce]

Not sure i can agree with you there Xyga, the Pi is capable of running a heck of a lot and surprisingly well to boot, more so than these clone systems you get that have collection of GBA or Sega or Nintendo games on.

The systems that the Pi3 struggles with is fairly small if your of the understanding that the system wont run Dreamcast and later systems, the only main system prior to the Dreamcast that the Pi struggles with is N64. Fair enough Jaguar, 3DO and CD-i emulation isn't great but who wants to play them really!!?. The big thing is that that the Pi can playing anything from the Atari 2600 up to the PSX and GBA era is frankly quite remarkable for a £20 bit of kit!

[Xyga]

Nope, even for the price I don't think it's interesting to go back to what emulation performance was over a decade ago.
Precisely even that 10+ years old junk windows laptop I'm keeping - certainly not worth even £20 today - can do more and beat the Pi's emulation performance, compatibility, and of course useability on the PC use side too.
It doesn't fit in a pocket so what ? is that really so important ? I've removed the screen making it quite compact, hell it would fit in a bartop!
Tip: there are thousands like that on the net and pc junk shops.

I know I'm the exception but I believe the Pi is overhyped and Raspberry are mostly living off that.
Again let them show me what they can do with a boosted $50 machine (convert €£ yourselves) + a real decent OS, and I'll change my opinion.
Whatever, I think even windows-sticks will get below the $100 bar at some point while still performing better in every aspect, we're only a few years from that I think, current ones perform roughly the same as my 10+ junk laptop does at around $150.

[vol.2]

Nope, even for the price I don't think it's interesting to go back to what emulation performance was over a decade ago.
Precisely even that 10+ years old junk windows laptop I'm keeping - certainly not worth even £20 today - can do more and beat the Pi's emulation performance, compatibility, and of course useability on the PC use side too.
It doesn't fit in a pocket so what ? is that really so important ? I've removed the screen making it quite compact, hell it would fit in a bartop!
Tip: there are thousands like that on the net and pc junk shops.

I know I'm the exception but I believe the Pi is overhyped and Raspberry are mostly living off that.
Again let them show me what they can do with a boosted $50 machine (convert €£ yourselves) + a real decent OS, and I'll change my opinion.
Whatever, I think even windows-sticks will get below the $100 bar at some point while still performing better in every aspect, we're only a few years from that I think, current ones perform roughly the same as my 10+ junk laptop does at around $150.

I bought the first pi, and the 2B, and then I waited when 3 came out because it doesn't have a new GPU. I enjoyed messing around with it and hooking it up to composite inputs on various TVs hanging around. Especially getting it to run YouTube from the command line on my late 80's 13" Sony TV was satisfying. Watching Gary Neuman perform "Are Friends Electric?" on that little TV directly from the command line felt very 80's cyber-punk in just the right way.
That said, I waited because of all the things you mentioned. I got scummvm running on it, but it was too slow. If it can't run Dosbox well enough to play Quake, then ehhhh, I start to care less and less.
I really hope the 4 ups the speed a lot because I like the fact that there is a big community around getting them to work in various ways. The community making software is what can make or break a thing like that. I wouldn't call it "hype" in that sense; "zeal" perhaps.

[Guspaz]

If it can't run Dosbox well enough to play Quake, then ehhhh, I start to care less and less.

That's a silly thing to do, since there are native ports of Quake for ARM/Linux, even ones that will run hardware accelerated. Or, if you care more about the experience of playing Quake in 320x200 software rendering mode, you can do that too, and it'll be indistinguishable from running it inside DosBox. Emulating an entire computer just to run a game that runs natively on the host platform is absurd.

That said, the latest and greatest DosBox on a Pi 3 is probably emulating somewhere around a 60Mhz 486 (I'm basing this on old benchmarks done with older versions of dosbox on an original Pi 1), which is sufficient for the vast majority of DOS-only games. Quake was not a DOS-only game, so it alone does not justify a need for the Pi to be able to emulate a 75MHz Pentium (Quake's minreq).

[vol.2]

If it can't run Dosbox well enough to play Quake, then ehhhh, I start to care less and less.

That's a silly thing to do, since there are native ports of Quake for ARM/Linux, even ones that will run hardware accelerated. Or, if you care more about the experience of playing Quake in 320x200 software rendering mode, you can do that too, and it'll be indistinguishable from running it inside DosBox. Emulating an entire computer just to run a game that runs natively on the host platform is absurd.

That said, the latest and greatest DosBox on a Pi 3 is probably emulating somewhere around a 60Mhz 486 (I'm basing this on old benchmarks done with older versions of dosbox on an original Pi 1), which is sufficient for the vast majority of DOS-only games. Quake was not a DOS-only game, so it alone does not justify a need for the Pi to be able to emulate a 75MHz Pentium (Quake's minreq).

Okay, well I've been out of the loop with Quake on a Pi for awhile; it looks like you can now jump through enough hoops to get it going at 60fps. I'll have to check that out.

Still, I think there were plenty of mid 90's DoS or Windows games that won't run well on a Pi. Seriously, I'm not hating on the pi here, I just had a less-than-smooth experience with it up until at least now. To put it in perspective, I had the first wave of the first Post, purchased in preorder. I read the magpi and fooled around with the hardware. At that point, it was like pulling teeth to get anything cool to run on the thing, so I guess I got a little fatigued and gave up. It's nice to hear that progress has been made

[RGB0b]

My main focus for RPi gaming is arcade games. I'd rather play on all original consoles when possible, but there's no way I could afford (or have the space for) all the arcade games I like, leaving emulation as my only option. As of now, my (always-changing) opinion about playing arcade games the Pi is this:

My cousin and I set up an RPi with with X-Arcade stick (including trackball and wheel) in under an hour, start to finish (including controller mapping). It looks really sharp on his RGB monitor in 240p and while I'm sure I'll spend many more hours tweaking and messing with refresh rates, it works fine as-is.

Doing the same thing with a Windows machine took at least twice as long, was MUCH more expensive and different configurations produced different results.

As of now, until I find a serious flaw or a much better alternative, the RPi will be my go-to device for all my arcade emulation. It's cheap, tiny, easy to set up and plays all the games I want (MK, Street Fighter, etc).

Just my thoughts...