Final Fantasy IV, V, VI and CT on Playstation disc: overview

[FinalBaton]

@WelshMegalodon

Yeah I feel like Yang should deal a bit more damage, with him being on the frontline and not having good armors and such. Edge on the other hand, I feel like his damage is adequate. Remember that the Red Mage/Red Wizard in the Famicom original deals considerably less damage than the Fighter/Warrior. And then consider that Edge deals close to almost as much damage as Cecil (in some parts of the game he's just a bit less powerful, and in other parts is equal (and even sometimes a bit stronger) than Cecil) and I think that it works fine, considering he has the throw command and some decent offensive spells.

Speaking of FF1 : have you played the rom hack Final Fantasy ++ and it's sequel World of Chaos? I'm tempted to give it a go but I'm looking for opinions first.
From what I read FF+ is a re-imagining of the game with new classes and sprites, new background graphics and some maps altered, while World of Chaos is an entirely new game (where you need to bring your endgame characters from FF+ into, via a savestate).

[FinalBaton]

And yes, Final Fiantasy Mystic Quest is downright insulting.

And I'm not just touting this as revisionist history :
even back then it was insulting.

By the time the game rolled-out in 1992 I was already a JRPG veteran. And Mystic Quest felt like an absolute slap in the face. I remember being furious at spending my hard-earned money on that game, lol.

[Sinful]

I'm one who never understood the high appeal of FFIV. Beat it once on PS1 after having played FF6,7 & 8 on PS1 and thought FFIV was meh. And more recently had two failed attempts playing the PSP version (last playthrough I made it as far as that underground before I finally had enough). I just don't see the appeal in this game, and I don't think I ever will.

I think the appeal of FF6 is gone too because I've recently tried a playthrough of it before I lost interest just before the Opera mission.

[FinalBaton]

I'm one who never understood the high appeal of FFIV. Beat it once on PS1 after having played FF6,7 & 8 on PS1 and thought FFIV was meh. And more recently had two failed attempts playing the PSP version (last playthrough I made it as far as that underground before I finally had enough). I just don't see the appeal in this game, and I don't think I ever will.

I think the appeal of FF6 is gone too because I've recently tried a playthrough of it before I lost interest just before the Opera mission.

Maybe playing it in 1991 helped. Let me tell you something : coming from FF1 on the NES, playing FFIV on SNES back at it's release was nothing short of MIND-BLOWING. No jokes.

Of course if you played it after 6, 7 and 8, you're not coming from the same place as I do.

I still love playing it to this day but I recognise that it's not the deepest game, and that some people might not love it.

[FinalBaton]

Just realised that since most members on here are europeans, many posters didn't experience ff4 until the PS1 days (and maybe played 6 and 7 before 4). Or are young and therefore played a lot more modern RPGs before getting around to playing FF4.

Well that explains a lot of the reactions I'm seeing here!

[WelshMegalodon]

Yeah I feel like Yang should deal a bit more damage, with him being on the frontline and not having good armors and such. Edge on the other hand, I feel like his damage is adequate. Remember that the Red Mage/Red Wizard in the Famicom original deals considerably less damage than the Fighter/Warrior. And then consider that Edge deals close to almost as much damage as Cecil (in some parts of the game he's just a bit less powerful, and in other parts is equal (and even sometimes a bit stronger) than Cecil) and I think that it works fine, considering he has the throw command and some decent offensive spells.

I'd say that as the game's only dual wielding character, Edge has some very big shoes to fill in terms of raw damage, but I guess keeping up with Cecil isn't bad.

And I was thinking of the Red Mage in FFIII's early game in my previous post, but since you mentioned it, I should add that as a result of the Intelligence bug, the Red Mage is most useful as an armored Black Mage with hand-me-down weapons (beginning a long trend of Black Mages being bested at their own job). His efficacy in this role excuses his lower physical strength, and with a second Knight or even a SUPER-MONK in your party you're not likely to need a third physical fighter anyway.

Speaking of FF1 : have you played the rom hack Final Fantasy ++ and it's sequel World of Chaos? I'm tempted to give it a go but I'm looking for opinions first.
From what I read FF+ is a re-imagining of the game with new classes and sprites, new background graphics and some maps altered, while World of Chaos is an entirely new game (where you need to bring your endgame characters from FF+ into, via a savestate).

Can't say I've ever been a romhack guy. If you haven't played FFIII, I would recommend that before looking into anything fanmade. (You may have seen my post about the new translation that was done this year).

Just realised that since most members on here are europeans, many posters didn't experience ff4 until the PS1 days (and maybe played 6 and 7 before 4). Or are young and therefore played a lot more modern RPGs before getting around to playing FF4.

Well that explains a lot of the reactions I'm seeing here!

I don't care for any Final Fantasy after V and I don't like FFIV. It and II are obviously the most important Final Fantasies, but the implementation of ATB in this installment is finicky at best and characters walking off with your equipment isn't any more fun than it was in 1988. IV is also much less mind-blowing when you've already encountered named characters, cutscenes, a "deep story", optional dungeons, chocobo forests, dual wielding, and even summons* in II and III. And as others have mentioned, being forced to use certain character classes is also annoying considering how much more freedom you were given in previous installments.

And no, I haven't touched any of the remakes.

EDIT: Apparently "dual wielding" is not, in fact, hyphenated.

[FinalBaton]

If you haven't played FFIII, I would recommend that before looking into anything fanmade.

I did play the translated NES roms of II and III.

I'd say that as the game's only dual-wielding character, Edge has some very big shoes to fill in terms of raw damage, but I guess keeping up with Cecil isn't bad.

If he were to deal considerably more damage than Cecil, than that would make him overpowered.

[Sinful]

I'm one who never understood the high appeal of FFIV. Beat it once on PS1 after having played FF6,7 & 8 on PS1 and thought FFIV was meh. And more recently had two failed attempts playing the PSP version (last playthrough I made it as far as that underground before I finally had enough). I just don't see the appeal in this game, and I don't think I ever will.

I think the appeal of FF6 is gone too because I've recently tried a playthrough of it before I lost interest just before the Opera mission.

Maybe playing it in 1991 helped. Let me tell you something : coming from FF1 on the NES, playing FFIV on SNES back at it's release was nothing short of MIND-BLOWING. No jokes.

Of course if you played it after 6, 7 and 8, you're not coming from the same place as I do.

I still love playing it to this day but I recognise that it's not the deepest game, and that some people might not love it.

Yes, there are a few games I wish I experienced when they were new for what you just described.

[Mortificator]

Not counting the remake and its ports, I might rank the difficulty...

1. Original Super Famicom version / PS1 version
2. GBA version / PSP version
3. US SNES "Final Fantasy II" version
4. Easy Type version

Where does the Wonderswan version rank?

I haven't played that version, so I'm ignorant on that front.

If you haven't played FFIII, I would recommend that before looking into anything fanmade. (You may have seen my post about the new translation that was done this year).

That patch still has some significant glitches. It's probably better to use one of the other translations until it gets revised further.

FF3's an amazing game, though. Great mechanics and aesthetics.

[BryanM]

One of the best in the series, and the thing never seems to end. FF3 would have blown my mind when I was eight.

How we're still not getting stuff like DQ10 and Joker 3 is pretty triggering. Old trauma.

As a fellow FF1 lover, tell me... am I the only one who feels like Edge and Yang don't deal enough damage?

Edge doesn't deal enough damage. His weapons are less than half as strong as the ones Cecil gets (which also makes his critical hits suck in the crit damage formula - for non-Yangs its Attack Power = Attack Power + 1/2 the attack power of your strongest weapon). All he gets from dual wielding in this game is lower defense from not having a shield. Which is not really meaningful in the easy versions of the game.

But he's basically an eternal corpse in the DS version if you frontline him. His min/max function is to sit in the back row and use the Throw command against bosses. (Which itself is imbalanced in the other direction.) Sad, compared to how completely broken dual wielding is in the other games.

Yang is alright. His claws let him hit many elemental/racial weaknesses which causes him to do double or quadruple damage. Or inflict status effects. A little weaker than average power (but not nearly as low as Edge's is) + a bonus effect is balanced in my book.

Ok, there are some maximizing choices involved with equipment, stuff like EQUIP THUNDER CLAW TO MURDER MACHINES and EQUIP STAFF TO IMPROVE MAGIC.

[Squire Grooktook]

I played FF4 and FF6 as a kid. I grew up past its release, but I inherited them from my older brother, and they were among the first rpg's I played.

I still have much affection for them. Though not as much to this day. For their time they were definitely good, and I think they still have respectable charm to this day (especially FF6, who's cinematic/story setpieces are brimming with whimsy and creativity), but I find they're too much of a time sink for too little story or gameplay pay off these days. FF6 is maybe the only one I'd consider replaying, really.

Play Trails In The Sky if you want a game with writing that can force you to relive as an adult what made rpg's magical in childhood.

[Blinge]

and I don't like FFIV. It and II are obviously the most important Final Fantasies

Wat?

Also I get some of the complaints about FF being dumbed down, but I played FF1 NES version and I don't remember needing to do any stat wizardry, minmaxing whatever. There didn't seem to be much strategy involved other than being aware of your resources to make it through dungeons/ retreat if necessary?

IV didn't sit well with me for different reasons than you bro, my faves are VI and... X

That article about Mystic Quest is amusing but, its just a marketing team looking at figures after all, and we all know marketing teams make the best decisions always.
Kinda wanna play it now actually! hah.

The thing that did successfully indoctrinate millions of young westerners into RPG ways 'n concepts was pokemon.

[Bloodreign]

I recently bought the PS1 pack with FF IV and CT, after seeing a copy of CT at a swap meet retail for $129.99 for a loose cart, I'll take my PS1 version, load times and all. It only ran me $20, a far more agreeable price tag (and it looks nice next to my copy of FF Anthology).

Though to be honest, I had a chance at CT years ago, again cart only, for $24.99, my crazy ass passed it for a loose cart of Yoshi's Island instead d'oh. I had the money for it too, just felt like I had already spent too much in previous trips to the local retro game shop (now long closed other than Play N Trade) when I was average over $100 spent every trip, and they had a ton of great games that eventually dried up before the guy shut his shop down.

[Bananamatic]

Also I get some of the complaints about FF being dumbed down, but I played FF1 NES version and I don't remember needing to do any stat wizardry, minmaxing whatever. There didn't seem to be much strategy involved other than being aware of your resources to make it through dungeons/ retreat if necessary?

based on the FF1 Origins port:

-you can at least pick your own party
-spells have limited uses with no way to restore them so you have to be careful with them
-no way to resurrect dead characters with items
-Potions are the strongest healing items available
-buffs are actually worth using (Shell and Protect were so worthless in FF4 that they removed them entirely from the US release)
-escaping battles is hard and almost not worth it (compared to Edge spamming Smoke to run instantly)

It wasn't complicated or super hard but there was the oldschool survival aspect of making it through a dungeon on limited resources

I don't really like the GBA and newer FF1 ports, they removed all of that and replaced it with being able to save anywhere, everything is way cheaper, leveling is easier, you have the usual mana system where you can spam spells much more, etc.

[WelshMegalodon]

Edge doesn't deal enough damage. His weapons are less than half as strong as the ones Cecil gets (which also makes his critical hits suck in the crit damage formula - for non-Yangs its Attack Power = Attack Power + 1/2 the attack power of your strongest weapon). All he gets from dual wielding in this game is lower defense from not having a shield. Which is not really meaningful in the easy versions of the game.

Laaame.

You would think they'd have known better after accidentally nerfing the Ninja's ability to deal critical hits in the first game.

Yang is alright. His claws let him hit many elemental/racial weaknesses which causes him to do double or quadruple damage. Or inflict status effects. A little weaker than average power (but not nearly as low as Edge's is) + a bonus effect is balanced in my book.

Fair enough. I guess I'm too used to the older Monks that get in 20+ hits per turn. Obviously that wouldn't have worked with ATB.

Ok, there are some maximizing choices involved with equipment, stuff like EQUIP THUNDER CLAW TO MURDER MACHINES and EQUIP STAFF TO IMPROVE MAGIC.

On that note, all of Cid's hammers are Lightning-elemental, but you never fight any machines while he's in your party. I always found that strange.

Wat?

Ah, shitty writing strikes again. What I meant to say was that II and IV played the biggest role in shaping the series as a whole, introducing many things that would go on to become staples of the franchise. Just take a look at what they brought to the table (for Final Fantasy, of course, not for "RPGs" as a whole):

Final Fantasy II featured, for the first time in the series:
- Named characters
- A rotating cast
- Some semblance of a plot
- Cutscenes
- A sequel that is only thematically related to its predecessor
- An even-numbered installment that is revolutionary rather than evolutionary
- The recurring theme of rebels combating an evil empire
- Somewhat meaningful character deaths
- An unconventional, customization-friendly, and highly exploitable leveling system that laid the foundations for Jobs, Magicite, Materia, etc.
- Nonsensical plot twists
- Game-breaking bugs (debatable)
- Dragoons, Leviathan, Ultima
- Chocobos!

With Final Fantasy IV we got:
- A significantly more convoluted story with a single, clear protagonist
- Fancier cutscenes with Mode 7 and stuff
- Cutscenes taking place on the battle screen
- Active Time Battle

etc, etc.

[Blinge]

Ahhh fair enough.

Yeah I'm enjoying Mystic quest atm. Total zombie-mode.
I'll er, I'll pack my things..

[WelshMegalodon]

You should try The Final Fantasy Legend and Legend of Mana. They too use the names of more respectable Square franchises to trick you into playing a SaGa game.

[Sinful]

Speaking of Mana. I tried to play the first SNES game, made it as far as getting my final and third character... and the game just wasn't clicking at all. What's your take on it, WelshMegalodon.

[BryanM]

I like that one theory that the guy who's responsible for FF2 was patted on the back, got a "great work, chap!" and was given the SaGa series to ruin in order to save FF.

SaGa always had some neat ideas and awkward execution.

[Bananamatic]

FF2 would've been great if it didn't take ages to level up magic without the glitch (and if magic was balanced in general)

seriously, even getting one spell to level 16 is MMO tedious

[FinalBaton]

I haven't gotten around to playing the 2 FFII remakes I've got here (FF Origins on PS and FF2 on PSP) but what interests me with those is that you're stats don't de-level. Which is a huge improvment.

Seriously, de-leveling is stupid.

[Bananamatic]

I only really played the Origins one, it's just a braindead spam attack game because magic is absolutely worthless, both yours and enemy magic

you can always just blood sword through the game even with reduced stats, it does % based damage and nothing resists it

[WelshMegalodon]

I can confirm that the Blood Sword is completely broken.

You can get around decreasing stats by only giving magic to one character. Unless you mean the other thing.

Speaking of Mana. I tried to play the first SNES game, made it as far as getting my final and third character... and the game just wasn't clicking at all. What's your take on it, WelshMegalodon.

I'm afraid I haven't spent much time with that one, only Ys. I know Mortificator doesn't like it, though.

I'm partway through Seiken Densetsu 3 now, and it's striking how this series abandoned action. If the character gets hit in FFA, it's because the player failed to get out of the way. In Secret, some attacks are still dodgeable, but others are just the enemy going "screw it, you will take damage now." And in SD3, there are virtually no attacks that can be avoided through player skill. The game's almost like a proto-MMORPG.

I like that one theory that the guy who's responsible for FF2 was patted on the back, got a "great work, chap!" and was given the SaGa series to ruin in order to save FF.

SaGa always had some neat ideas and awkward execution.

I wouldn't mind seeing SaGa Frontier II and Legend of Mana reimagined as Zelda-likes. Those graphics are too good to go to waste.

[ZacharyB]

A programmer created an extensive mod for the GBA Dawn of Souls release, which deals with many issues that made the games too easy. Check it out: http://www.jeffludwig.com/finalfantasy/

[Mortificator]

I know Mortificator doesn't like it, though.

Haha, when I saw Secret of Mana mentioned I was about to do a search for what I said about it last time, so thanks for that! I think the game's positive reputation is mainly due to incorporating co-op; time has shown people will put up with poor action in real-time RPGs as long as they're playing them with friends. If you're trying the game by yourself, Sinful, I'd say to quit now. And apropos of Bananamatic's comment on Final Fantasy II, Secret of Mana also requires leveling-up spells individually.

A reimagining or revising of Legend of Mana? I can get behind that. If nothing else, the game had beautiful art.

I quite like The Final Fantasy Legend / SaGa, and it has a nice remake for WonderSwan which has been fan-translated. The game's only several hours long, so it's not a big commitment as RPGs go, and yet it doesn't feel truncated.

[Sinful]

I know Mortificator doesn't like it, though.

Haha, when I saw Secret of Mana mentioned I was about to do a search for what I said about it last time, so thanks for that! I think the game's positive reputation is mainly due to incorporating co-op; time has shown people will put up with poor action in real-time RPGs as long as they're playing them with friends. If you're trying the game by yourself, Sinful, I'd say to quit now. And apropos of Bananamatic's comment on Final Fantasy II, Secret of Mana also requires leveling-up spells individually.

A reimagining or revising of Legend of Mana? I can get behind that. If nothing else, the game had beautiful art.

I quite like The Final Fantasy Legend / SaGa, and it has a nice remake for WonderSwan which has been fan-translated. The game's only several hours long, so it's not a big commitment as RPGs go, and yet it doesn't feel truncated.

After making it that far in that game and things not seeming right, I decided to quickly look up all the negative reviews on GameFAQs to see if any of them turn up any seemingly legit reasons. I recall some of the issues sounding pretty serious and exactly the type of things that aren't up my alley.

[BryanM]

No one who's played Secret of Mana has any friends. It's just people (especially us lowly western peasants who have to translate all our games ourselves) starved for action RPGs with grinding and stats and l00ts.

I love Cadash, and Cadash... is not a good game. Landstalker: much better game. But very stingy with the l00ts.

A Secret of Mana thing would make a splendid MMO/Diablo clone, but of course, that would require making something that's different.

[Blinge]

I like that one theory that the guy who's responsible for FF2 was patted on the back, got a "great work, chap!" and was given the SaGa series to ruin in order to save FF.

SaGa always had some neat ideas and awkward execution.

Hahah. yeah I played Romancing SaGa

Jesus what a mess..

[Xyga]

No one who's played Secret of Mana has any friends. It's just people (especially us lowly western peasants who have to translate all our games ourselves) starved for action RPGs with grinding and stats and l00ts.

I did clear that game with friends several times in the days, always a blast whatever people say.
SoM has two things over many other action-rpgs; it's actually enjoyable to hit and smash enemies around (3 and LoM screwed this), and the graphics+sound are unquestionably 16-bit Square era -atmospheric.
I like to put it in the bag with games in the vein of Streets of Rage 2 and Axelay: ~90's 16-bit games that were perfect for what they were and achieved.

[FinalBaton]

I did clear that game with friends several times in the days, always a blast whatever people say.
SoM has two things over many other action-rpgs; it's actually enjoyable to hit and smash enemies around (3 and LoM screwed this), and the graphics+sound are unquestionably 16-bit Square era -atmospheric.
I like to put it in the bag with games in the vein of Streets of Rage 2 and Axelay: ~90's 16-bit games that were perfect for what they were and achieved.

I like SoM too. It's definitely a load of fun with friends and as you say, the presentation is top-notch. I also agree that hitting enemies feels satisfying with these controls. The combat overall is quick and snappy, the item ring helps here too. I also quite like the weapon level-up idea and how they're used in combat.
I'm currently replaying it solo, with friends joining part-time, and I like the solo playthrough less than I used to in my teenage years. I used to worship the game back then, but now I've taken it a peg or two down in my game rankings. Still a good game though, it's just that it's not clicking for me as it used too. But multiplayer is still an awesome time.