NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:

[nakedarthur]

Did you calibrate the composite input on that PVM with SMPTE bars before taking those photos? Composite chroma/phase settings can be pretty off, so it can look very different from RGB until calibrated. When I got my PVM, the composite had a bit of a greenish tint before I ran the auto-calibration.

No, I have not calibrated with the SMPTE bars yet. Is there a good guide out there for it? I think for proper hue setting you need a filter too. I'm trying to think how I could get SMPTE bars through composite. My Genesis has 240p Test suite, but that's notoriously worst composite out there..

[austin532]

I have my Trinitron calibrated using blue mode so that the SMPTE color and tint bars match and I also get the blueish screen for SMB using a stock NES.

[nakedarthur]

This guide has some good info for calibrating. I just realized my monitor has auto-calibration for Phase and Chroma for NTSC sources, so I will run it tomorrow and see if there's any difference.

[Smashbro29]

So wait, it's been a long time for me and I see there was a lot of movement. Which one is the one that's just supposed to be as accurate as possible? Not CRT or anything.

[cruzlink2]

Love your work @firebrandx. As far as accuracy there is only so much you can get a nesrgb modded console to look like an old nes running composite on a crt, even if that console is ran on a pvm tube.

[FBX]

As promised I got my stock frontloader back. All 3 of these pictures are on the same Sony RGB monitor (OEV-203 aka PVM-20M2MDU).

From left to right:

- Stock Front-loader NES via Composite (surprise, it's not purple!)
- Nestopia w/ "Composite Direct" palette via RGB
- NESRGB toploader w/ Unsaturated v6 via RGB



The Composite Direct palette looks pretty close to stock frontloader composite in person, just not quite as saturated and slightly different hue. My NESRGB really has me thrown for a loop though. It looks WAY different than the other two. The strange thing is when I set Nestopia to Unsaturated v6 palette it looks closer to Composite Direct, not the NESRGB. This leads me to think there's something wrong with my console. I am going to look at it tomorrow and see what's going on.

Anyway, so yea definitely interesting seeing that neon blue sky on the PVM. If I adjust the Phase (hue) I can make it either purple like some see, or lighter blue like my little 13" consumer Trinitron. The picture was taken with it zero'd out in the middle. I wonder why there's such a wide variation on hue between consumer CRTs and capture equipment?

This is where I need to be able to output 240p RGB from an emulator. I could fine-tune those colors such that it would look identical from the real hadrware and the RGB version. But yeah, the current thing I've been working on is intended to mimic the general CRT color experience on an LCD. Unfortunately as you've discovered, no one CRT will look the same as the next in this regard. I will say though, that every capture card seems to always pick up the red being weighted slightly higher than green on the SMB blue sky. It just so happens the way the phosphors react show green brighter than red.

[nakedarthur]

OK update! I figured out what was wrong with my NESRGB (had some lose connections at rear video port). I also got my monitor calibrated for NTSC sources by using SMPTE test pattern and the auto-calibrate function of the monitor. It does not look too different though aside from slightly lower Chroma.

Here is comparison between stock NES on left, and NESRGB with Unsaturated v6 on the right. The pictures look a bit different than in person (sky is lighter in person), but the palettes are definitely close. The Unsaturated palette is just a bit more saturated, which probably isn't a bad thing considering how dull composite is without some sweetening on the Chroma and Phase knobs. Maybe that's why all the CRT TVs are showing it a bit differently? Also, it's much harder to get a picture of composite source than RGB, which is why both photos have been blurry. Again these are taken on PVM-20M2MDU, which is a very accurate monitor. Maybe if someone has a BVM it might be slightly more accurate, but I'd say this is pretty close.

[nakedarthur]

This is where I need to be able to output 240p RGB from an emulator. I could fine-tune those colors such that it would look identical from the real hadrware and the RGB version. But yeah, the current thing I've been working on is intended to mimic the general CRT color experience on an LCD. Unfortunately as you've discovered, no one CRT will look the same as the next in this regard. I will say though, that every capture card seems to always pick up the red being weighted slightly higher than green on the SMB blue sky. It just so happens the way the phosphors react show green brighter than red.

Not sure if you saw or not, but it's now very easy to get 240p RGB output from a Raspberry Pi. You could probably have a setup on there in no time. RetroRGB video on it: https://youtu.be/z-9LAmeZuxI

[austin532]

I'd say that's definitely more of a purple sky. If an accurate PVM displays it as purple then I think we can pretty much confirm that the sky was intended to be that way. One thing with composite/RF is that the dark colors appear darker/muddy and the light colors appear lighter/washed out.

Nakedarthur do you have a non calibrated PVM or CRT TV to do a comparison?

[nakedarthur]

I'd say that's definitely more of a purple sky. If an accurate PVM displays it as purple then I think we can pretty much confirm that the sky was intended to be that way. One thing with composite/RF is that the dark colors appear darker/muddy and the light colors appear lighter/washed out.

Nakedarthur do you have a non calibrated PVM or CRT TV to do a comparison?

Having seen it in person, I would say it's not so purple as the pics might make it out to be - it's more of a lighter, brighter blue. The pics were really just for comparison against each other though, not to be taken as example RGB values. Unfortunately I only have an iPhone to take pictures with, but I'm going to try and get my hands on some better photo equipment soon. In the meantime, I may try video instead since it will give a better impression overall.

Also yes, I have a consumer Toshiba set I can compare with, but I'm sending my NESRGB out to be fixed (having a multi-out connector put in instead of the mini-din I have now that's been giving me trouble) so it might be a while until I can get more comparisons together involving the modded NES.

[tjstogy]

Thanks for the pics nakedarthur. Anyone know what's causing the discrepancies in colors betwen composite and RGB on the same crt? (and yamatos?)

[austin532]

I'd say that's definitely more of a purple sky. If an accurate PVM displays it as purple then I think we can pretty much confirm that the sky was intended to be that way. One thing with composite/RF is that the dark colors appear darker/muddy and the light colors appear lighter/washed out.

Nakedarthur do you have a non calibrated PVM or CRT TV to do a comparison?

Having seen it in person, I would say it's not so purple as the pics might make it out to be - it's more of a lighter, brighter blue. The pics were really just for comparison against each other though, not to be taken as example RGB values. Unfortunately I only have an iPhone to take pictures with, but I'm going to try and get my hands on some better photo equipment soon. In the meantime, I may try video instead since it will give a better impression overall.

Also yes, I have a consumer Toshiba set I can compare with, but I'm sending my NESRGB out to be fixed (having a multi-out connector put in instead of the mini-din I have now that's been giving me trouble) so it might be a while until I can get more comparisons together involving the modded NES.

What color is the sky on the Toshiba using the stock NES? On my Trinitron it appears a lighter blue with just a hint of red in it.

[thebigcheese]

@FBX, whenever this is finally available from Tim, can you specify which of the stock profiles are replaced by which of yours? I do not have a switch installed on mine and would like to know what I will be getting. When I first installed it, I hardwired it to natural, which has since been replaced by Unsaturated v6. However, now that you are replacing two pallets, I am not sure what I will end up with.

[austin532]

Here is what it look like for me. Similar results. The reds are much more toned down in person so the ground is more brown and the sky is more blue.

[PascalP]

He FBX,

Could you repost a downloadlink to the latest nesrgb firmware you released?
Unsaturated-final I think?

I think that pallette should be good for displaying on a PVM/BVM CRT right?
My NESRGB installation is completed now and want to flash it over the weekend before closing it up

[FBX]

He FBX,

Could you repost a downloadlink to the latest nesrgb firmware you released?
Unsaturated-final I think?

I think that pallette should be good for displaying on a PVM/BVM CRT right?
My NESRGB installation is completed now and want to flash it over the weekend before closing it up

Tim is currently working on the new batch I commissioned.

Also I'm in the process of getting a Sony 20-inch PVM sent to me, so I'm sort of putting on hold the CRT research until it arrives in the mail. I'll write back if something comes up or if Tim finishes the new firmwares.

[FBX]

Posting an update in that my Sony 20" PVM will be arriving Thursday by 8pm. It is coming directly from a hospital that it was used in, so I'm hoping it will be in good condition. Crossing fingers!

[austin532]

Nice, how much did you have to fork out? How much difference can a PVM really make? Composite is still Composite no matter what it's hooked up to. Some of the high end Trinitron tv's are said to be a step below a PVM so it should be interesting to see how much of a difference there is.

[FBX]

Nice, how much did you have to fork out? How much difference can a PVM really make? Composite is still Composite no matter what it's hooked up to. Some of the high end Trinitron tv's are said to be a step below a PVM so it should be interesting to see how much of a difference there is.

It's not so much the composite I'm after, but rather the fact that it has RGB and component inputs. This means I can theoretically compare RGB color to the Composite color by merely switching inputs on the monitor.

Anyway, I actually only had to pay for shipping as the hospital tech is donating it for free. My guess is they upgraded to new flatscreen hardware, as it was previously used in endoscopy monitoring.

[leonk]

So... hmmmm... it was being used by someone who was anal about detail and now by another personal who pretty much is anal about detail.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

So... hmmmm... it was being used by someone who was anal about detail and now by another personal who pretty much is anal about detail.

Endoscopy, not colonoscopy; wrong hole, Leonk!

[austin532]

While we wait I've also noticed that Stage 2 from Super C uses the same olive green from Contra and cyan blue from Mega Man 2. It's less distracting in this game but I think the CRT Nostalgia still looks better.

Direct Capture left / CRT Nostalgia right

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Great example, austin532.

[tjstogy]

That's cool, does that mean you'll be making a separate palette specifically for RGB use on CRT's with correct composite color?

Nice, how much did you have to fork out? How much difference can a PVM really make? Composite is still Composite no matter what it's hooked up to. Some of the high end Trinitron tv's are said to be a step below a PVM so it should be interesting to see how much of a difference there is.

It's not so much the composite I'm after, but rather the fact that it has RGB and component inputs. This means I can theoretically compare RGB color to the Composite color by merely switching inputs on the monitor.

Anyway, I actually only had to pay for shipping as the hospital tech is donating it for free. My guess is they upgraded to new flatscreen hardware, as it was previously used in endoscopy monitoring.

[FBX]

That's cool, does that mean you'll be making a separate palette specifically for RGB use on CRT's with correct composite color?

That's the hope anyway. It sounds like I might be able to pull it off with the raspberry pi's 240p output, but I'll need to do a lot of research on how to set it up.

The PVM arrived today, and it's in pristine condition! But alas, I need to order BNC cabling to hook my consoles up to it. Here's a quick pic of the input panel on the back:

[tjstogy]

Pleeeeeeease make it happen! I haven't gotten my NES modded for RGB yet (and I have the board) because of this. (Calibrate it first though, both the composite and RGB channels)

[leonk]

Pleeeeeeease make it happen! I haven't gotten my NES modded for RGB yet (and I have the board) because of this. (Calibrate it first though, both the composite and RGB channels)

!?! just install it. you can flash latest firmware when done. Enjoy the nesrgb NOW.

[FBX]

I downloaded the service manual and calibrated the picture on the PVM. I also ordered all the BNC conversion cables, which will be here this coming week. While waiting for those cables, I hooked up the PS1 in S-Video to it and played some Doom. I forgot how good CRT can look with 240p gaming! I might just turn into one of those CRT fanatics

In the mean time, I'll be learning what I can about what's needed to get an emulator hooked up in 240p RGB out.

[austin532]

Calibrated as in adjusting the color and tint in blue only mode using a SMPTE pattern or calibrated as in professional level where you adjust each individual color? How's everything else looking? Geometry is usually pretty good on PVM's.

[FBX]

Calibrated as in adjusting the color and tint in blue only mode using a SMPTE pattern or calibrated as in professional level where you adjust each individual color? How's everything else looking? Geometry is usually pretty good on PVM's.

As in using the secret menu and color bar patterns. The geometry was off center, so I adjusted it using a cross-hatch pattern and aligned the image so that the game graphics are perfectly framed. The image is quite sharp, but there is a little bit of convergence smear on the top and bottom of the screen. Fixing that will likely require tube magnets and/or yoke adjustment, but that's out of my league. It's only a minor complaint I would have, which I'm fine with considering I only paid $22.00 for the shipping.