Looking forward to "NX"? (aka The Switch Thread)

[neorichieb1971]

There is more to it than that.

If you can transfer data in and out of the RAM quickly enough its not so much of a problem. Nobody is buying a Switch so they can get cross ports of PS4 games.

[ZellSF]

There is more to it than that.

If you can transfer data in and out of the RAM quickly enough its not so much of a problem. Nobody is buying a Switch so they can get cross ports of PS4 games.

I definitely would be buying a Switch for cross ports of PS4 games. So you're wrong. What do you think people will be buying a Switch for then? Just Nintendo games? That didn't work out for the Wii U.

[neorichieb1971]

There is more to it than that.

If you can transfer data in and out of the RAM quickly enough its not so much of a problem. Nobody is buying a Switch so they can get cross ports of PS4 games.

I definitely would be buying a Switch for cross ports of PS4 games. So you're wrong. What do you think people will be buying a Switch for then? Just Nintendo games? That didn't work out for the Wii U.

The Wii U could have had better than PS4 graphics on it and I still wouldn't have bought it. I hated the input device with a passion.

The Switch seems to be ticking more boxes including the ones you want, the ones I want.. The Switch will be my first Nintendo console since GC.

But where I differ from you is that I would still buy the PS4 version of a game if it is was more suited to it. I can't imagine a cross platform game coming out and myself buying the Switch version.

[HydrogLox]

What do you think people will be buying a Switch for then? Just Nintendo games? That didn't work out for the Wii U.

Nintendo is hoping that people will buy the Switch for the same reasons that they have bought the 3DS in the past 5+ years. Primarily Nintendo first party games with all the other usual suspects in DS/3DS history - that line was never sold on the strength of cross-platform games. Quite often PSP/PS Vita versions of cross-platform games were superior but that fact was irrelevant because of the much smaller PSP/PS Vita install base - most DS/3DS owners were not going to invest in a competing handheld. This time around Nintendo is competing against the "already-in-place" mobile device. But Nintendo is trying to exploit the fact that in general people:

1. Don't buy separate controllers and external display adapters for their mobile device. More money and more hassle.
2. Most mobile games are typically not designed to have a play style that works particularly well with a separate controller and/or external (non-touch) display (of course some do exists but they are in the minority).

With the Switch the mobile-to-home and home-to-mobile transition capability is part of the whole package.

Back in 2004/2005 Nintendo denied that the DS was replacing the Game Boy Advance line and released in 2005 the backlit AGS-101 and the Game Boy Micro. But from our present perspective the DS was the successor of the Game Boy Advance. The same thing is now happening with the Switch and the 3DS - Nintendo stating that the Switch isn't replacing the 3DS but in the future the Switch will be seen as the successor of the 3DS:

1. At this point in time Nintendo isn't ready to tick off the entire 3DS install base all at once.
2. The Switch is a handheld micro console that can function as a home console - but that doesn't imply that it can compete with some of the technical aspects of the PS4 (Pro)/Xbox One (S/Scorpio). Nintendo's line is that it will compete in terms of game play (but not necessarily cross-platform display quality). So cross-platform games will suffer in one way or another and I think the best that we can hope for is results like PS3 vs PS Vita - Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath HD (keeping in mind that was a game from the previous generation).

Seems a lot of reviews of Super Mario Maker 3DS are complaining about not being able to upload levels. Maybe this was a deliberate decision on Nintendo's part because they are planning for the Switch version of SMM to be the definitive version - mainly because it would make good use of a touch screen on "a home console" and demonstrate the emergent Switch hybrid play style:

• Use the Switch in handheld mode for level construction and level test.
• Dock the Switch for big screen - physical controller play of the levels.

[ZellSF]

What do you think people will be buying a Switch for then? Just Nintendo games? That didn't work out for the Wii U.

Nintendo is hoping that people will buy the Switch for the same reasons that they have bought the 3DS in the past 5+ years. Primarily Nintendo first party games with all the other usual suspects in DS/3DS history - that line was never sold on the strength of cross-platform games.

I'm doubting that's a good plan from Nintendo. Things change and I'm dubious just Nintendo games can carry another console well. Doing everything they can to promote cross platform development could significantly enrich their game library.

This time around Nintendo is competing against the "already-in-place" mobile device.

This is what worries me. Nintendo is still chasing the causual market, which I believe they'll fail massively at rather than trying to market towards gamers and kids like they used to.

[Skykid]

Jesus Christ HydrogLox, you've spent this entire thread talking in hard facts.

Have you got some kind of inside knowledge we're unaware of, or are we just going to have to wait until launch before we can go back through this thread and enjoy shooting holes in all your inaccurate statements?

[Shelcoof]

Jesus Christ HydrogLox, you've spent this entire thread talking in hard facts.

Have you got some kind of inside knowledge we're unaware of, or are we just going to have to wait until launch before we can go back through this thread and enjoy shooting holes in all your inaccurate statements?

He makes a lot of really good points though

[Strider77]

Well.... as long as it has Amiibo support.

[Shelcoof]

Well.... as long as it has Amiibo support.

lol

out of all the Amiibo's I've bought I've only maybe used 2 out of the who knows how many I have.

First one was Samus for Smash Bros. I didn't think it was all too great never used it again.

2nd was for Yoshi's Woolly World. The feature also sucked never used it again either.

I'm wondering how long Nintendo can continue push these Amiibos until people get tired of them.

[BryanM]

If you can transfer data in and out of the RAM quickly enough its not so much of a problem.

Even if a a game is put together as a slip-shod piece of inefficient garbage where this is even possible, we're talking about several hundreds of thousands of dollars of extra cost that wouldn't exist if there was sufficient RAM. The harshest cut is that it isn't even money that's necessarily the highest cost: there's the problem of time. Money can't speed the process up. 1 year later, the game is old catfood. And maybe the console you're making the thing for is dead.

It's kind of a miracle anyone makes games for consoles. We like to complain about blockbuster titles being cookie cutter factory produced products, but look at what's happened to something as unambitious as Persona 5.

Granted yes, the vicious feedback cycle is already in effect. Football, racer and 1st person blue n' orange murder'em up fans have already had their console for three years now. Then they'll get a new one in a couple more years after the Switch comes out, leapfrogging Nintendo once again. And they'll have like 10+ GB of RAM.

I'm the last one to argue that they should try to compete head to head on the same dimension against the black boxes, but they don't have to intentionally disincentivize 3rd party companies from making ports.

[neorichieb1971]

All Nintendo need to do is put "enough" RAM in the console. Whatever magic number of GB's that is.

I'd be happy with Wii U power in the Switch. Its the idea of the Switch that sells, not the nuts and bolts that make it work. The marketing strategy is all about best games on a cross platform product that marry's handheld with main living room console. It has the potential to make people play games on a handheld gaming device instead of phones.

[HydrogLox]

Have you got some kind of inside knowledge we're unaware of, or are we just going to have to wait until launch before we can go back through this thread and enjoy shooting holes in all your inaccurate statements?

No inside knowledge - so do I need to go back to the post and edit it to start with "This is my current hypothesis ..." ... I don't think so. Can I be totally wrong - sure! Maybe Nintendo will surprise us - pleasantly or unpleasantly. However more likely than not Nintendo will behave in line with its past actions.

Could it be that some of the design decisions in SMM 3DS are just pure boneheadedness - sure. However it is more fun to speculate at more nefarious motives - seems to me SMM was an opportunity to revitalize the Wii U but somehow Nintendo botched that and the 3DS port seems more gimped than usual, leading to lots of WTF reviews.

I personally have no idea how some people are are building up the hope of Xbox One/PS4 like performance from the Switch - they are absolutely fooling themselves and might as well believe in magic. Xbox One US$299 (MSRP), PS4 Slim US$299 (MSRP), Switch US$249 (MSRP)

• Both Xbox One/PS 4 are much larger than the Switch. Same performance in a smaller package (with comparable manufacturing dates) is usually more expensive - not less.
• Both the Xbox One/PS4 don't have a stand alone display, battery and dock included for the price - OK so the Switch doesn't a have an optical drive - still doesn't balance out.
• Nintendo historically has always sold their hardware for a profit by using ho-hum technology, why change now?

Based on these (economic) judgements to me technical/performance comparisons of the Switch to the Xbox One/PS4 are just ludicrous - but that doesn't have to stop the Switch from being a worthwhile game machine.

All Nintendo need to do is put "enough" RAM in the console. Whatever magic number of GB's that is.

Actually all that has to be "in the console" is what is needed for handheld/mobile operation. Remember that supplemental computing device patent? I think it isn't out of the question that there could be an optional "deluxe dock" (and more expensive "deluxe set") by the end of 2017 that contains it's own GPU/RAM for "improved at-home display performance" - just speculating.

[BryanM]

I personally have no idea how some people are are building up the hope of Xbox One/PS4 like performance from the Switch - they are absolutely fooling themselves and might as well believe in magic. Xbox One US$299 (MSRP), PS4 Slim US$299 (MSRP), Switch US$249 (MSRP)

It's uh, really ludicrous to think it'll be priced at 250 when it comes out. The New 3DS is tons less plastic alone and retails for more than that. I'd be very impressed with a cool 300, and expect 350.

As for the performance, I'm not sure you're familiar with what a joke the XBone and PSx4 are on that front. There's a reason there's the whole "console peasants" meme - they're so feeble and weak, it really is feasible for a system on a chip form factor to compete with them. Not even a particularly new SOAC; the fanciest version of a Tegra 3 released back in 2012 could do it.

The trailer showed Elder Scrolls 5 as a potential title. No physical limitations of what's available off the shelf prohibit the possibility of DOOM 2016 running on the thing. And unless the trailer was nothing but lies, all signs point to that as what it'll be. Will it be precisely as powerful as the boxes? No. Will they skimp on the RAM and have to use ghetto settings on textures? Possibly.

a Tegra 3 released back in 2012

Ironically, this is the same processor used in the Ouya.

Please for the love of god, just for the sake of avoiding smelly bad karma, don't use this chip Ninten

[Austin]

It's uh, really ludicrous to think it'll be priced at 250 when it comes out. The New 3DS is tons less plastic alone and retails for more than that. I'd be very impressed with a cool 300, and expect 350.

My guess is the 3DS in general has been expensive due to the uncommon 3D display setup (case in point, take that away and you have the 2DS that now retails for $80). That said, it's not unreasonable to think that if the Switch uses a more commonly manufactured screen, that the system could achieve a much more reasonable price tag than what we've seen from Nintendo in recent years ($300 for the Wii U, $250 for the original 3DS at launch and $200 for the New 3DS).

We only have a little over a month to go to find out for certain.

[ZellSF]

I would expect a relatively high price. I'm thinking we're going to see another 3DS-like launch at high price to take advantage of early adopters, then massively drop price when sales start dropping. They have enough time to do that before next Christmas even.

All Nintendo need to do is put "enough" RAM in the console. Whatever magic number of GB's that is.

I'd be happy with Wii U power in the Switch. Its the idea of the Switch that sells, not the nuts and bolts that make it work. The marketing strategy is all about best games on a cross platform product that marry's handheld with main living room console. It has the potential to make people play games on a handheld gaming device instead of phones.

This is weird. Usually I'm the one advocating Nintendo try to do something better with their hardware and everyone else just saying it's all about the games. You're basically saying games aren't that important and it's all about the hardware.

[neorichieb1971]

This is weird. Usually I'm the one advocating Nintendo try to do something better with their hardware and everyone else just saying it's all about the games. You're basically saying games aren't that important and it's all about the hardware.

Graphics stopped impressing me after Dreamcast. Even in todays youtube comparisons between HD and 4k, I don't really see anyone doing masturbation exercises because a bit of light looks different in the bottom right hand corner of the screen where the sun shines through some leaves.

Most games are fast action based and you cannot tell much difference whilst playing. Its only when you put down your controller and look closely at the screen you can see differences worth noticing. When you consider how much power it takes to jump the resolution, FPS and so forth to get that 4K is it worth the price of admission? For me no.

NCL could just release games on the switch that look modern ish and I would be happy. And lets face it, how many games in the PS4/XBO era have 5 star graphics, 10/10 gameplay and have people making a library of games out of that criteria.

This is what pre current era game collections look like -



Current day collections consist of about 5 games of which 3 are never played after the first week.

This is just my beliefs I don't think everyone will think like me. But this time I think NCL got it right. The graphics in the teaser video are good enough for my gaming needs. Is there anyone here that saw the Switch trailer that said "those graphics look appalling?".

Back in the 1994 when we used to talk specs, someone once said to me "Don't talk numbers, just look at the screen". I've done that ever since. Who gives a shit what numbers are doing what, its whats on the screen that counts.

[ZellSF]

Back in the 1994 when we used to talk specs, someone once said to me "Don't talk numbers, just look at the screen". I've done that ever since. Who gives a shit what numbers are doing what, its whats on the screen that counts.

Not to game developers. What counts to them is how easy it is to make games for the system, and better system specs is a huge part of that.

No one's going to port their game to a system that "looks good enough". They're going to look at the numbers.

If Nintendo ignores these numbers, it means less great games for the Switch.

[neorichieb1971]

Back in the 1994 when we used to talk specs, someone once said to me "Don't talk numbers, just look at the screen". I've done that ever since. Who gives a shit what numbers are doing what, its whats on the screen that counts.

Not to game developers. What counts to them is how easy it is to make games for the system, and better system specs is a huge part of that.

No one's going to port their game to a system that "looks good enough". They're going to look at the numbers.

If Nintendo ignores these numbers, it means less great games for the Switch.

Nintendo have a kind of code which goes "We will succeed or fail on our own". And even though the SFC/SNES era was their last hoorah I have never seen them give credit to Konami/Namco/Taito/Acclaim/Rare/Capcom/Squaresoft or any of the others for the success story the SFC/SNES was.

Those companies could make Switch exclusive titles and make the Switch a bigger seller than the PS4/XBO.


To put things into context, I believe the Switch will be more successful for NCL than VR will be for PS4. And thats a numbers game.


I have this feeling that shmups and other niche gaming styles will take off on the Switch, because of the handheld connection. I truly believe the Switch will warp and bend the rules and it will be the other big players that will have to make amends too. And for the life of me I hope FPS/Destiny/Doom games get dropped next generation. At least 50% of them anyway.

[Sinful]

It's uh, really ludicrous to think it'll be priced at 250 when it comes out. The New 3DS is tons less plastic alone and retails for more than that. I'd be very impressed with a cool 300, and expect 350.

Toys R Us Canada accidentally leaked the price at $329.99 in Canada, which would likely translate to around $250. http://bgr.com/2016/11/14/nintendo-swit ... toys-r-us/

[ZellSF]

Back in the 1994 when we used to talk specs, someone once said to me "Don't talk numbers, just look at the screen". I've done that ever since. Who gives a shit what numbers are doing what, its whats on the screen that counts.

Not to game developers. What counts to them is how easy it is to make games for the system, and better system specs is a huge part of that.

No one's going to port their game to a system that "looks good enough". They're going to look at the numbers.

If Nintendo ignores these numbers, it means less great games for the Switch.

Nintendo have a kind of code which goes "We will succeed or fail on our own". And even though the SFC/SNES era was their last hoorah I have never seen them give credit to Konami/Namco/Taito/Acclaim/Rare/Capcom/Squaresoft or any of the others for the success story the SFC/SNES was.

Those companies could make Switch exclusive titles and make the Switch a bigger seller than the PS4/XBO.


To put things into context, I believe the Switch will be more successful for NCL than VR will be for PS4. And thats a numbers game.


I have this feeling that shmups and other niche gaming styles will take off on the Switch, because of the handheld connection. I truly believe the Switch will warp and bend the rules and it will be the other big players that will have to make amends too. And for the life of me I hope FPS/Destiny/Doom games get dropped next generation. At least 50% of them anyway.

All things that are more likely to happen if Nintendo makes cross-platform development easier.

[neorichieb1971]

All things that are more likely to happen if Nintendo makes cross-platform development easier.

In that case make a PS4 with a Nintendo badge on it.

[ZellSF]

All things that are more likely to happen if Nintendo makes cross-platform development easier.

In that case make a PS4 with a Nintendo badge on it.

Microsoft and Sony both have managed to have an unique identity without alienating third party developers. Nintendo has even sort of managed it in the past (Gamecube).

[HydrogLox]

It's uh, really ludicrous to think it'll be priced at 250 when it comes out.

Toys R Us Canada accidentally leaked the price at $329.99 in Canada, which would likely translate to around $250. http://bgr.com/2016/11/14/nintendo-swit ... toys-r-us/

Frankly, I'm hoping that leak is wrong because that price really restricts the quality and capability potential of the product. On November 4th a Forbes contributor pegged the guess at $299 based on some vague statements by Tatsumi Kimishima - but Nintendo's president was clear about one thing:

Regarding the price, as we have been saying, we are, in principle, not planning to sell it at a loss.

But even at US$299 the Switch still includes a display, battery, dock and handheld form factor that the XBox One/PS4 don't have to bother with - so I expect "raw performance" to suffer. And Nintendo has already been managing that expectation since E3 2016 - Reggie On The NX: “For Us, It’s Not About Specs, It’s About Content”.

The New 3DS is tons less plastic alone and retails for more than that.

The current MSRP is US$199.99 for the New Nintendo 3DS XL.

I'm not sure you're familiar with what a joke the XBone and PSx4 are on that front. There's a reason there's the whole "console peasants" meme - they're so feeble and weak

Please provide a link to a sub US$300 handheld PC that beats the pants off the Xbox One/PS4 gaming (and performance) wise. Apples-to-apples comparisons are more like this - 4 Good Around $400 Gaming PCs vs Console 2017. Is there a sub US$300 tablet that can do it?

the fanciest version of a Tegra 3 released back in 2012 could do it.

Apparently there are other opinions: 2012-Aug-11: Tech Analysis: How Powerful is Tegra 3?

In Theory: Can Tegra 3 Power an HD Console?
...
Based on the games we've played, the overall feeling we get is that we're looking at technology roughly equivalent to the capabilities of the last-gen Xbox, embellished with higher resolutions and more modern graphical features. It is categorically not on the same level as the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 - nowhere near.

The trailer showed Elder Scrolls 5 as a potential title. No physical limitations of what's available off the shelf prohibit the possibility of DOOM 2016 running on the thing. And unless the trailer was nothing but lies, all signs point to that as what it'll be.

Nintendo fans pick apart Switch reveal video

One of the actors from the trailer's Splatoon section, Twitch streamer Dickhiskhan, has broken his silence via a GameExplain interview. The trailer was shot in mid-September amid tight security, and actors were filmed holding dummy units.

Gameplay footage of Nintendo Switch software was then added in post-production, he continued. (Dickhiskhan plays the bearded Splatoon player near the end of the trailer seen wearing a red tank top).
...
Eurogamer contacted Nintendo regarding the trailer's production and asked how it was all put together.
...
"You shouldn't assume what you saw on the video represents actual game footage and further specifics on first-party games will be provided later."

Please for the love of god, just for the sake of avoiding smelly bad karma, don't use this chip Ninten

It would make sense if Nintendo used a version that supported NVLink as that would make it easier to have an auxiliary GPU in the dock - however only the Pascal core (used in the NVIDIA Drive PX2 priced at US$15,000) supports NVLink it at this time - but there is some flexibility with SoCs. But lets keep in mind that when the 3DS released the processing chip cost only about $10 of the $103.25 manufacturing cost when it released for $249. Even a $15-25 price range would severely limit the potential power of the processor.

Not to game developers. What counts to them is how easy it is to make games for the system, and better system specs is a huge part of that.

This really is the biggest challenge for Nintendo. Having a device that is "different" gets in the way of cross platform development. Games developed for PS4/Xbox One are likely going to feel gimped on the Switch as there is no real incentive to use the Switch's unique features; games developed for the Switch can either not be ported to the PS4/Xbox One at all (because of the missing handheld aspect) or lose something in the translation (e.g. ZombiU). That is why I'm having doubts about the Switch with regards to cross-platform games - third-party games are a separate issue and it depends to a point on who the third party is and how supportive Nintendo is.

[neorichieb1971]

Anything that NCL puts out in special features of the console need to be looked at as a way forward in videogaming. Unfortunately they are considered gimmicks in recent years. Even when they do hit a bullseye Sony seems to copy it within 6 months.

The console launch is just around the corner so any videos NCL put out now that do not illustrate the quality of the end product is very deceiving. Post production editing or not.

[BryanM]

Apparently there are other opinions: 2012-Aug-11: Tech Analysis: How Powerful is Tegra 3?

I've heard the Android API's are not efficient (has to run on so many disparate configurations), but my only excuse for some of the things I've said yesterday is that cocaine is a hell of a drug.

The S will indeed be significantly lower than 80% of what the 1 and 4 are, spec-wise.

I let the fact it'll be such a massive increase over the U do weird things to my head, sorry.

Anything that NCL puts out in special features of the console need to be looked at as a way forward in videogaming. Unfortunately they are considered gimmicks in recent years. Even when they do hit a bullseye Sony seems to copy it within 6 months.

It's neat how they're the trailblazer of so many basic facets of the medium. When they pulled the 5200's joystick out of the garbage can, made it not-poop, and from then on the analog joystick was a mandatory feature on all gamepads?

But, there's always more misses than hits. It's good they've learned their lesson to keep a wide berth from VR.

I think the Switch will lean a bit more to the success levels of analog sticks than virtual boy. As richie says, the diminishing returns on the butt shaders are pretty dramatic. It's hard not to think of FF14:

According to a later postmortem, the team developing the game had an unhealthy obsession of graphical quality over gameplay content that led to other parts of the game being neglected, reinforced by the company's then-outdated development methods. A cited example of the focus on graphics was a flowerpot, which had as many polygons and lines of shader code as a player character. This high graphical quality meant that compromises needed to be made; for example, the number of players present on-screen at any one time needed to be limited to twenty, undermining the large-scale communal appeal of MMORPGs. This issue also impacted the game's environments; to save on memory space while preserving seamless travel, the team needed to reuse environmental features and textures on a regular basis.

[Strider77]

Nintendo fans... if the Nintendo Switch farted would they stop to smell it?

[Sinful]

I'm not interested and haven't been interested in a Nintendo console since the N64. And I see no reason to be now. Not with all those great IPs I've been looking forward too still being geared toward 2 year old. How long I've waited for a proper adult themed Zelda game (thank goodness Dark Souls filled that void + the Castlevania void too). I'm going to buy either a PS4 or an X-Bone soon. Then an X-Bone or a PS4. No room for a third rate me too console. Nintendo abandoned me, and I've long abandoned them.

Sorry to sound negative. But I'm just not as interested in owning and wasting money on every console anymore as I was in the 90s. That and my primary interest is still retro gaming anyway, which I can also do for free thanks to emulation. So wasting too much money on today's gaming wouldn't make sense for me. I've bought so many modern games and they just sit on the self collecting dust. I've basically turned into a collectard and I didn't even know it.

[konmai]

tfw to intelligent and mature for ninty games

[Skykid]

tfw to intelligent and mature for ninty games

Lol, it's so true. Not edgy and dark enough to be fun and well made.

[MX7]

Ocarina of Time would be objectively better with a torture QTE.