OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[marqs]

NESRGB: Perfect
Super Famicom: Bad syncing, picture can't stabilize

So you have NESRGB working perfectly fine but issues with SNES? Assuming OSSC itself syncs ok with SNES (sync details displayed on the character LCD, red led off), that's interesting since both NES and SNES have almost the same sync irregularity by design.

[arovane]

NESRGB: Perfect
Super Famicom: Bad syncing, picture can't stabilize

So you have NESRGB working perfectly fine but issues with SNES? Assuming OSSC itself syncs ok with SNES (sync details displayed on the character LCD, red led off), that's interesting since both NES and SNES have almost the same sync irregularity by design.

Hehe, well pointed out. My NESRGB was the only console plugged on a different monitor. I now tried it on my Panasonic Plasma, and you were right it displays the same way as the SFC, picture does not stabilize. It works fine in composite though, but NES in composite.. beurk. Guess I'll use the Framemeister for NESRGB, SFC and Neo-Geo then.

Will it be possible with a future update to make those consoles work with a broader amount of consumer screens?

[Blair]

[note: this post is outdated, marqs and the other users in the thread helped me solve the issue]

480p linedouble was done quite fast and I haven't used it much since my TV doesn't accept it. However, I just connected PC via VGA to OSSC and checked this sharpness test pattern in both 640x480 and linedoubled 1280x960 on my desktop monitor. Every original pixel was transformed into 2x2 pixels in latter mode as expected, and I didn't see anything weird either.

hey marqs, thanks for the reply. let me show you these pictures that illustrate the problem. (User paulb_nl thinks that the error is caused by the OSSC using horizontal pixel duplication, can you shed any more light on this?)

when I asked BuckoA51 about why he didn't like 480p line double mode, he didn't really give me any details and just said it looked awful to him. I assume this visual error was what he was talking about

all close-ups shot from the same sony e400 CRT monitor (the vertical lines you see in the picture, is just what the aperture grille looks like up close) (the error is also consistent on digital flat-panel displays)
source: original Xbox outputting component video at 480p 16:9


OSSC Line Doubled 480p (inaccurate reproduction of original image, has extreme pixelation)






OSSC Direct 480p (perfect digitization, image is fine)






Isolated Capture from the Xbox (for comparison)






Direct Capture from the Xbox scaled to 1080p by a DVDO Edge Green (for comparison)


[note: this post is outdated, marqs and the other users in the thread helped me solve the issue]

[Guspaz]

That looks correct to me, doubling to 960p is pixel doubling, so of course it's not going to get smoothed like a 480p signal would be... You're taking every original pixel and turning it into 4, of course it's going to look more pixelated. I'm not sure what you're expecting...?

[Blair]

That looks correct to me, doubling to 960p is pixel doubling, so of course it's not going to get smoothed like a 480p signal would be... You're taking every original pixel and turning it into 4, of course it's going to look more pixelated. I'm not sure what you're expecting...?

so you're saying the image is supposed to be that pixelated in 480p line double mode? I've used line double and line quadruple systems in the past and I don't remember 960p or 1920p ever looking that pixelated before, I guess it's possible they used some type of interpolation to lessen the pixelization but it seems unlikely that all of them did that. just recently I used an avermedia LGX in line double mode but it didn't look pixelated at all (it did certainly have way more input lag than the OSSC though) (here's a screenshot I took on the e400, from a PS3 outputting 480p over HDMI )

Spoiler

Thats mainly because the OSSC currently uses horizontal pixel duplication with 480pX2 to go from 720 to 1440 pixels. That causes the pixelization.

Is there any way to fix that? (I'm guessing a line quadruple function would be the ticket)

Great pics, Blair. The Saturn looks amazing! Is it your monitor limiting you to Line Double, or just personal tastes?

Thank you, I only had time to sort some pics from line double mode, but the Sony e400 (and Electron blue IV) can take any video mode the OSSC throws out with ease.
Triple is no problem and it also looks pretty damn good on this particular monitor (scanlines are a little skinnier in line triple mode, but they still look very nice).

I should also mention my Samsung UN40 series LCD IPS TV handles the OSSC perfectly, as does my Asus VW246H LCD TN monitor.

here's a few more pics,

Sony PVM 20L5 direct 240p (from Sega Saturn)


Sony PVM 20L5, Sega Saturn with OSSC 480p with scanlines 100%

[Galdelico]

I have the same Asus, Blair, and yeah, in the end it went along perfectly with the OSSC.
Reason why I decided to wait to upgrade to a newer model, before setting all up once and for all.

Also, can you explain the last Vampire Hunter picture? You said it's 480p and it looks awesome on your PVM... Does it come from Vampire Chronicle for the Dreamcast? Or is it the Japanese collection for the PS2? If it's the latter, how did you enable 480p on it?

[Blair]

hey, Galdelico.
sorry about the confusion, I should have been a little more clear with my description of the pictures. on the two vampire Hunter pictures this is how it set up.

the first image is a Sega Saturn directly connected to the PVM [video chain: Sega Saturn model 2+RGB scart+RGBs cable+PVM20L5]

the second image is the OSSC outputting 480p (line doubled 240p) into the 20L5 (with scanlines). [video chain: Sega Saturn model 2+RGB scart+OSSC+DVI to HDMI cable+HD fury2+RGB interface+PVM20L5]

hope that clears things up.
I'm definitely a big fan of the vampire/darkstalkers games. and I've been playing them quite a bit lately, so that's why a lot of my recent screenshots include them. lol.

(you might be interested in some of the CRT comparison shader experiments I did a little while back, http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... s#p1198588)

(I was attempting see just how close I could get LCD screens to mimic CRTs with varying results. mostly using arcade roms, check out the VW246h test pic)

[Fudoh]

Blair,

so you're saying the image is supposed to be that pixelated in 480p line double mode? I've used line double and line quadruple systems ins the past and I don't remember 960p or 1920p ever looking that pixelated before, I guess it's possible they used some type of interpolation to lessen the pixelization but it seems unlikely that all of them did that.

of course all of them do. Any line doubler or quadrupler optimized for video uses interpolation in video mode. Even if you compare direct 480p to 960p on your CRT, the 31khz signals will be considerably smoother.

None of the other existing video processors would sample the incoming image so exactly and apply an exact doubling on the horizontal, hence none would deliver an image as sharp as the OSSC. You're just not used to what you're seeing. After after all nobody ever said that this i the best way to process 480p.

[marqs]

480p linedouble is primarily meant for 2D pixel graphics which usually looks bad with scaling filters designed for film/video. It could be possible to add horizontal interpolation filter for OSSC with some resources, but I don't see much point since displays should already handle 480p upscaling (for 3D games) better.

[tacoguy64]

480p linedouble is primarily meant for 2D pixel graphics which usually looks bad with scaling filters designed for film/video. It could be possible to add horizontal interpolation filter for OSSC with some resources, but I don't see much point since displays should already handle 480p upscaling (for 3D games) better.

You would think a plasma would be good for 480p games but the panasonic I have really sucks at that resolution. I mean it does 720p and 1080p like a champ but whenever I tried 480p on it, with different input connections, they always come out bad. The OSSC has fixed that for me. Though I didn't try to play my DC much on the FM but I don't remember that device making it look as nice. It is very comparable to crt in terms of contrast.

[BuckoA51]

480p linedouble is primarily meant for 2D pixel graphics which usually looks bad with scaling filters designed for film/video.

For years people were whining and begging for "perfect integer scaling" then you give them something close to that and they don't like it

[Galdelico]

hey, Galdelico.
sorry about the confusion, I should have been a little more clear with my description of the pictures. on the two vampire Hunter pictures this is how it set up.

the first image is a Sega Saturn directly connected to the PVM [video chain: Sega Saturn model 2+RGB scart+RGBs cable+PVM20L5]

the second image is the OSSC outputting 480p (line doubled 240p) into the 20L5 (with scanlines). [video chain: Sega Saturn model 2+RGB scart+OSSC+DVI to HDMI cable+HD fury2+RGB interface+PVM20L5]

hope that clears things up.
I'm definitely a big fan of the vampire/darkstalkers games. and I've been playing them quite a bit lately, so that's why a lot of my recent screenshots include them. lol.

(you might be interested in some of the CRT comparison shader experiments I did a little while back, http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... s#p1198588)

(I was attempting see just how close I could get LCD screens to mimic CRTs with varying results. mostly using arcade roms, check out the VW246h test pic)

Ahh, it's all good! Thanks for clarifying. ^_-

And awesome thread too... I've now come to the point I sincerely prefer how retrogames look on a modern display, when there's no lag and good scanlines (such as those provided by the OSSC) are applied to the image. To me, it's the best of both worlds... You still have a beautifully clean, analogue-looking picture on screen, plus 100% perfect geometry with no overscan. After having tried the OSSC, I can't see myself looking back at CRT screens ever again.

[Avrel]

I am interested to try the De-Blur on the N64.

The wiki indicates the following settings:

Console / mode : N64 320x240 @60Hz
Dots per scanline / no. scanlines / @dotclk : 773.25 (?) / 262 / @12.18MHz(NTSC) [4]
OSSC base mode / scale factor : 240p_L3M2 / H: 4x(3x), V: 3x
Active area IN->OUT : 640(320)x240 -> 1280(960)x720
Modified parameters : H.samplerate=387, H.synclen=22, H.backporch=36
Notes : Every other visible dot (of 640) is interpolated

I understand that the H.samplerate setting is to take one pixel every two dot in order to just digitalize the original dot and not the interpolated dot (so 773,25 / 2 = 386,625 rounded to 387).

Now I don't get why the two other parameters are modified, and therefore why these values.

And I don't get why I would have to set to line triple mode (240p_L3M2).... because sadly my tv does not support it.

Can someone try to explain me what I missed ?

[Blair]

None of the other existing video processors would sample the incoming image so exactly and apply an exact doubling on the horizontal, hence none would deliver an image as sharp as the OSSC. You're just not used to what you're seeing. After after all nobody ever said that this is the best way to process 480p.

I'm not sure if I would use the word "sharp" to describe the image coming out of 480p line double mode, but now that I understand its purpose I have a few ideas on how to test it. (When used incorrectly it gives everything sort of a PS2 style aliased look).

Pretty sure on the last few line doublers I used they had a graphics mode enabled (which I would assume would mean no filtering), but then again I wasn't taking high-resolution screenshots back then so perhaps I just didn't notice.

480p linedouble is primarily meant for 2D pixel graphics which usually looks bad with scaling filters designed for film/video. It could be possible to add horizontal interpolation filter for OSSC with some resources, but I don't see much point since displays should already handle 480p upscaling (for 3D games) better.

That makes much more sense, thank you for explaining the methodology behind 480p 2x on the OSSC, it would be helpful though if on the product page (or wiki) somebody could give more details on the feature and its best use cases, maybe with some high-resolution screenshots.

I'm glad I didn't listen to the previous explanations, (about it being some type of upscaling issue) and now I know that my unit is functioning perfectly. (But once again to avoid confusion in the future you might want to have someone write up a more detailed rundown of the feature).

Ahh, it's all good! Thanks for clarifying. ^_-

And awesome thread too... I've now come to the point I sincerely prefer how retrogames look on a modern display, when there's no lag and good scanlines (such as those provided by the OSSC) are applied to the image. To me, it's the best of both worlds... You still have a beautifully clean, analogue-looking picture on screen, plus 100% perfect geometry with no overscan. After having tried the OSSC, I can't see myself looking back at CRT screens ever again.

I agree completely, the main reason I still enjoy using CRTs is mostly because of motion resolution still being best on analog displays, although with the arrival of high-quality consumer grade OLED displays that seems to be changing. The other factor of course is input lag. but with the OSSC (and a few other methods) being virtually leg free, that problem seems fairly close to being solved (especially if display manufacturers could just produce consistent low input lag game modes for their midrange and high spec displays, but that's another matter entirely I guess).

[Xyga]

I'm glad I didn't listen to the previous explanations

But do you realize that although in a different manner we all told you the same thing Fudoh just did ?
Our explanantions make sense, it's just you who had the wrong idea about what the OSSC does.

[Blair]

I'm glad I didn't listen to the previous explanations

But do you realize that although in a different manner we all told you the same thing Fudoh just did ?
Our explanantions make sense, it's just you who had the wrong idea about what the OSSC does.

half right at best, not that I didn't appreciate the help Xyga, but Zappyraccoon's explanation of the actual game assets being that pixelated was way off base. (also, if you have that kind of Pixelization while emulating that's definitely a resolution mismatch issue and the game isn't being scaled by a proper integer.

it's a common problem with psx emulation on epsxe. you actually have to look at a readout from the game (gsdx usually works). find it's actual resolution and then create a custom resolution setting. that always fixes the issue, if you want to see a good example of that problem play soul caliber/soul Blade and output it at 1080p and then look at the scrolling background in the options menu. it's a shimmery pixelated mess).

your explanation of 480p being overly smoothed, while leaving 960p overly sharp was closer to the answer but still inaccurate. also, if you look again at the 960p screenshots on the Samsung LCD both resolutions are fairly blurry, 960p was blurry, pixelated and full of ringing (the Samsung un40's have awful upscaling. however, if you feed it a 1080p60 signal it looks fantastic, and its game mode doesn't lock you out of the picture settings, plus the set has a very low input lag. I usually pair it with my edge green).

but you are right about me misunderstanding how the 480p line double function on the OSSC worked (in my mind I guess I was expecting it to look more like a line quadruple image). I'm still rather intrigued by it though, and would love to find the best way of exploiting it.

if you (or anybody else) has some ideas for hardware/games to try with that mode I would love to see some Suggestions. (or perhaps the answer... is to just add scanlines?

Spoiler

(again, thanks for the help I do appreciate it. that quoted comment wasn't meant to be a diss or slight against you. I was just glad that I kept pushing for more information).

[Zappyraccoon]

I'm glad I didn't listen to the previous explanations

But do you realize that although in a different manner we all told you the same thing Fudoh just did ?
Our explanantions make sense, it's just you who had the wrong idea about what the OSSC does.

Nothing you can do, I had big reply set aside but decided it wasn't worth my time.

half right at best, not that I didn't appreciate the help Xyga, but Zappyraccoon's explanation of the actual game assets being that pixelated was way off base. (also, if you have that kind of Pixelization while emulating that's definitely a resolution mismatch issue and the game isn't being scaled by a proper integer.

Not off base at all. If you take a low resolution image and double the pixels perfectly to fill up a higher resolution space you will see the pixelation crisp and blaring as can be. The reason it's not as smoothed is because the television doesn't have to stretch it as far to fill the native space. It's not a resolution mismatch issue emulated or not. You're making simple explanations too complex and that's clouding your understanding.

Anyways, rebuttal aside I noticed you mentioned on your XBOX screenshots the setup being [Original Xbox+480p Component to RGB digital conversion+HD fury2 VGA out]. Just a heads up the OSSC handles pure signals the best so try to steer clear from adulterating the signal too much. Especially if it's going from component -> RGB -> VGA. That could very well be where your ringing is coming from. It's much better to either flash a VGA bios and mod the console to output true VGA or just stick with Component (be sure to flash the force 480p bios for better results). Also, the DVDO upscalers don't handle 480p that well. Crystalio II and most modern sets do better.

[Blair]

It's not a resolution mismatch issue emulated or not. You're making simple explanations too complex and that's clouding your understanding.

Perhaps, but when you mentioned "emulation" I thought that's where you were coming from with your pixelization answer. Resolution mismatches are a common problem with emulation. and I thought you were using that as your frame of reference.

Just a heads up the OSSC handles pure signals the best so try to steer clear from adulterating the signal too much. Especially if it's going from component -> RGB -> VGA. That could very well be where your ringing is coming from.

No, it turned out the ringing was mostly the fault of the Samsung. If you look at my shots on the sony e400 the images have no ringing. The purpose of the HD fury 2 is just to get VGA output (for the OSSC) and onto analog displays (like the e400) for the first test I connected the OSSC directly to the Samsung via DVI to HDMI cable.

Not off base at all. If you take a low resolution image and double the pixels perfectly to fill up a higher resolution space you will see the pixelation crisp and blaring as can be.

Your correct (but still kind of only by half) I did misunderstand how the OSSC was using its 480p line double mode, however the actual assets themselves aren't pixelated to begin with (that's what I thought you were saying at first, that was another misunderstanding) you are right depending on the technique used to upscale is what causes the pixelization. Although a line double/line quadruple is different from traditional upscaling, at least in this case)

Also, the DVDO upscalers don't handle 480p that well. Crystalio II and most modern sets do better.

Crystalio II, is fairly rare around here ( so I would probably be better off looking for an HD3000). as far as newer equipment like televisions doing a better job with 480p, for a while there that was true, but lately there seems to have been a regression in the quality of 480p and 720p processing (according to recent reviews and a few of my own tests).

out of all of the DVDO processors, the green I have seems to have the least amount of trouble with ringing on 480p (as compared to the pro and vp50 vanilla), but it's definitely still there if you look for it. older processors like the DVDO HD and HD+ have no real issues with ringing in 480p signals and they work perfectly with the OSSC. (240p line triple is a touch finicky on them though).

[Zappyraccoon]

Perhaps, but when you mentioned emulation I thought that's where you were coming from with your pixelization answer. Resolution mismatches are a common problem with emulation.

Nah, I was just trying to use a more universal example so I wouldn't have to type as much. I'm glad you figured out the ringing issue though.

[Blair]

Nah, I was just trying to use a more universal example so I wouldn't have to type as much. I'm glad you figured out the ringing issue though.

yep, and as I said to Xyga I appreciate your help, it's bit of a quirk with me. I like to have as much information about what's going on as possible (especially when something is bugging me, lol) it's great that we can always put our heads together on here to get the best possible outcomes, (two brains are good, but five brains are better )

sorry if I sometimes sound a bit stubborn or condescending (that's definitely not my intention).

Here's a mockup of how scanlines would look in linetriple mode if we could adjust the second and third lines separately. I think it looks a lot like linedouble scanlines with the second line set to 50%.

that does look interesting!

question, was paulb_nl's scanline setting suggestion ever addressed? (I couldn't find a reply in the thread or on the official OSSC forums)

[paulb_nl]

I understand that the H.samplerate setting is to take one pixel every two dot in order to just digitalize the original dot and not the interpolated dot (so 773,25 / 2 = 386,625 rounded to 387).

Now I don't get why the two other parameters are modified, and therefore why these values.

The short answer is that you can use H.synclen and H.backporch to center the image.

And I don't get why I would have to set to line triple mode (240p_L3M2).... because sadly my tv does not support it.

Can someone try to explain me what I missed ?

With 320x240 linetriple mode it outputs 320x3=960x720 in a 1280x720 frame so its 4:3. You don't have to use that mode, you can also use linedouble mode but then you end up with 320x480 output which your TV most likely won't support also.

that does look interesting!

question, was paulb_nl's scanline setting suggestion ever addressed? (I couldn't find a reply in the thread or on the official OSSC forums)

No but I also posted in the feature request forum: https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... s-setting/

[marqs]

That makes much more sense, thank you for explaining the methodology behind 480p 2x on the OSSC, it would be helpful though if on the product page (or wiki) somebody could give more details on the feature and its best use cases, maybe with some high-resolution screenshots.

Sure, I'll add some additional description to wikipage.

question, was paulb_nl's scanline setting suggestion ever addressed? (I couldn't find a reply in the thread or on the official OSSC forums)

Seems like that idea has got lost on the way. It's certainly implementable, so I'll add that to wiki too. There has also been request for custom horizontal scale factor for 256x240 and 320x240 Line3x optimized modes (currently h-scale is fixed to 4 and 3 respectively - some people would e.g. like displaying NES/SNES at "their native" 8:7 ratio).

[paulb_nl]

Seems like that idea has got lost on the way. It's certainly implementable, so I'll add that to wiki too.

Thanks. Could you also add the SNES de-blur to the wiki?

[Unseen]

some people would e.g. like displaying NES/SNES at "their native" 8:7 ratio).

But they're both native 4:3 consoles...

[marqs]

some people would e.g. like displaying NES/SNES at "their native" 8:7 ratio).

But they're both native 4:3 consoles...

Yes, their internal 256:224 (=8:7) ratio normally gets projected on 4:3 screen, but there are some games that do not compensate for non-square PAR and people who've used to playing with emulators (of which some default to 8:7). It's also worth keeping in mind that currently OSSC output in 256x240 Line3x mode is wider than 4:3 since you'd need v-scale of 6 and h-scale of 7 to get pixel-perfect 4:3 with integer scaling.

[orange808]

If an OSSC 2.0 comes around, I'd like to see another 3.5mm jack--to properly support independent audio inputs for component and RGB.

[headlesshobbs]

I managed to get the vga signal to finally stop pulsing after the advice I was given (thanks), but there's still a good deal of bloom with the whites and I'm not having luck with figuring how to adjust contrast levels directly. Marqs, do you know if there is a proper setting for this?

I've had some idea that I may need to put some resisters into the cable itself to alleviate the problem, but I'm not at all sure how I'll get around to doing that.

[etsuna]

The OSSC doesn't work with my slot 2 mvs and slot 4 mvs.
Anyone have settings for this? Thanks for your answers.

[Simon Belmont]

The OSSC doesn't work with my slot 2 mvs and slot 4 mvs.
Anyone have settings for this? Thanks for your answers.

It didn't work with my one slot MVS either. tbh it doesn't matter. I use it more on my PC Engine and my Supergun/Jamma.

[Harrumph]

The OSSC doesn't work with my slot 2 mvs and slot 4 mvs.
Anyone have settings for this? Thanks for your answers.

Maybe the AES settings helps with MVS also?
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Neo_Geo_AES