HDFury questions and Feedback please

[Fudoh]

Since HDMI to component is MUCH cheaper than getting a classic analogue transcoder, using the digital output is likely your better option.

[StarCreator]

I'm finding the price difference to be sort of marginal as long as we're considering the HDFury the minimum for the digital to component conversion (given the remarks about the quality difference earlier in this thread).

The display is an older HD CRT (a Sony XBR960) that we believe scales internally to a 1080i output resolution. It actually has an HDMI input, but for whatever reason it doesn't report its supported resolutions in a way the output device likes (we're actually going to try an EDID override box to get around this). But some remarks about the internal scaler got me wondering if it makes a difference in how much input lag is introduced on the internal scaler end using HDMI vs. feeding it component...

[BazookaBen]

You might be able to find some info on avsforum.com about the XBR960's input lag with HDMI vs component. With HDPT (high-definition pass through) enabled, you know you will get zero lag on the component input. It can only go higher from there.

One thing I noticed on my hi-scan Trinitron is that you could feed 540p via analog component, but not via HDMI. That shows you how little tinkering the TV does with analog component signals at 33.75hz.

[Guspaz]

How would you even get 540p, though? A letterboxed 480p signal? I guess it wouldn't be so bad, only around 5% underscan on each side. I think OSSC can do that?

[BazookaBen]

You can get any resolution from a PC. 540p is actually the exact resolution Axiom Verge runs at (270x480 line-doubled with some of the "glitchy TV" effects running at 540x960). So I actually played that a little on my old hi-scan Trinitron and it looked great.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

the HDFury2 is fantastic.. the cheap unit that I was using was not good and do not recommend maybe others are better??.. I recommend you go with the HDfury2 if you can get a second hand one, new they are kind of pricy.

[Guspaz]

Looks like the cheapest HDFury that does digital to component conversion is the HDFURY Gamer 2 Component for $159 USD MSRP. I don't see it any cheaper new anywhere, but you can find HDFury component converters on eBay for $105.

[StarCreator]

Apparently we were able to snatch a new HDFury2 off eBay for $60. Lucked out there.

Still curious about implications in regards to input lag. A straight VGA to component transcode would be faster than starting from HDMI, no?

[BazookaBen]

Still curious about implications in regards to input lag. A straight VGA to component transcode would be faster than starting from HDMI, no?

Well, VGA to component is instant, and the HDFury's HDMI to component conversion is almost as fast. I think the difference is imperceptible, if there even is a difference. Someone here explained to me that DVI/HDMI is just digital RGB, so it's pretty easy to convert it on the fly without a framebuffer (meaning no lag)

What are you hooking up anyway?

[Guspaz]

Digital to analog converters (and analog to digital converters) are essentially zero latency (usually they lag behind by a couple of cycles, so for a video signal this is measured in millionths of a second). What may not be zero latency is any additional processing that the converter does on top of this.

The HDFury 2 device does support some image processing (picture offsets, converting limited-range input to full-range output) but I don't think any of those things would add latency.

[bateman82]

Hi, I've got two GDM FW900 maily used fo pc gaming (rts and k+m gaming).

I'd like to hook-up my WiiU, Ps3 and Xbox 360 just to see how they look.

Is it possible to use simple Component to BNC adapter to hook up all 3 console and output 1080p (without using vga to hdmi transcoder like the hd fury)?

[BazookaBen]

Hi, I've got two GDM FW900 maily used fo pc gaming (rts and k+m gaming).

I'd like to hook-up my WiiU, Ps3 and Xbox 360 just to see how they look.

FW900 probably doesn't support component, I'm not aware of any CRT PC monitors that do.

Xbox 360 has VGA out though, so you could plug that directly to your monitor. Same with Dreamcast and PS2. Gamecube, Wii, and Xbox need component>VGA converter. PS3 needs an HD Fury, because its component isn't good. Wii U is a little more complicated, you'll have to read the rest of the thread.

And you'll want to use 720p for most Wii U games, as stated earlier in the thread.

[bateman82]

Thanks a lot for your fast reply BazookaBen!

I always thought that BNC is kinda compatible with component, but maybe I was wrong.

Here's a pic (not mine) of the back of the gdm fw 900:

[BazookaBen]

The BNC connectors take the same signal as the VGA connector, which is RGBHV. The VGA connector is actually better to use with PC since your video card can detect your EDID. That will give you a nice selection of resolutions.

But you shouldn't only use the resolutions contain in your EDID, because you can use Custom Resolution Utility to create any resolution you wish, as long as it's between 30khz and 140khz (I think). That will basically allow you to finely tune the experience for each game, so you can run at ultra and your desired frame rate just by creating a custom resolution for the game that is within your card's capabilies.

So that leaves your BNC connectors as good place to hook up consoles. PS2, for example, you just hook up a component cable with 3 BNC adapters, and set the system to RGB (sync will be Green in 480p mode). Thankfully most 480p games only require a button combination on start up, and you can force more games into 480p (or 960i, 960p, etc) with GS Mode Selector.

[Guspaz]

It should be noted that getting BNC inputs to any VGA monitor is as easy as using a cheap adapter, so having BNC inputs has little value in and of itself. My projector will even take 240p RGBS (and detect it as progressive) over the VGA port, and works fine with several of my consoles directly connected to the projector, such as my NES, SNES, and PSX. Unfortunately, it doesn't like sub-optimal sync signals, so that doesn't work with my PAL60 GameCube or anything from the GARO. The OSSC solves all those problems.

EDIT: It should be noted that if a display will accept anything other than RGBHV is not guaranteed, and most will probably not take 15KHz. Many displays will probably accept RGsB (sync-on-green), and I would think few will take RGBS (csync).

[bateman82]

Thank you both for your answers.

I've always read that the Ps3 can be connected to the GDM FW900 only via Hdmi->Hd Fury, but for me the signal will pass even trough sony component lead, then BNC connectors. What do you think about?

Since it's almost widescreen and it's a small crt, it will be perfect for Wii games "optimized" for 16:9 (like skyward sword, donkey, etc...), do you think it can be connected the same way (Nintendo component cable, BNC connectors)?

[Guspaz]

Your monitor does not accept component video (YPbPr) over its RGB inputs, so your plan will not work in general.

You will need to either use an HDMI-to-VGA adapter, or you will need to use a YPbPr-to-RGB adapter like the GARO. I've had problems with the GARO outputting low quality sync that my projector and OSSC don't like, but its VGA output seems to be better, and you should be able to use it directly.

Be warned that while some consoles such as the Wii support 480p (your monitor's minimum resolution), they are not guaranteed to output 480p all the time, and some games may force the Wii into 480i mode, which will not work on your monitor. If you want to play consoles that mix 480i and 480p, you would need to use something like the OSSC or Framemeister to upscale the signal before converting it to RGB for your monitor.

I suspect that an OSSC combined with a good HDMI-to-VGA device would be a good solution for your monitor.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Hello there.. I used to have a GDM FW900 and the HP equivalent not to long ago.. I have never seen a better picture that on those monitors.. the problems, the monitors were to small for my need and it took about 30mins to get a perfect picture, the blacks were being crashed.. So I went and purchased a BVM32, even if it only did max 1080i

To your question... the best setup that i found was with an HDFury 2 to connect the WiiU, PS3, Xbox360, PS4, and Xbox one over the VGA input on the monitor.. WiiU games are great to look at.. the more time you spend with those monitors, the more your eyes start playing tricks on you.. when you look at a regular LCD, PC or TV type, you will see the blur and imperfections on the LCDs... Do not use the cheap stuff to convert from HDMI to VGA, those things will bring artifacts into the picture.

Hi, I've got two GDM FW900 maily used fo pc gaming (rts and k+m gaming).

I'd like to hook-up my WiiU, Ps3 and Xbox 360 just to see how they look.

Is it possible to use simple Component to BNC adapter to hook up all 3 console and output 1080p (without using vga to hdmi transcoder like the hd fury)?

[bateman82]

Thanks for your suggestions SNK-NEO-GEO!

I've always been skeptical about connecting a console like a xbox 360 (fixed 60hz) to a CRT like the gdm fw900 for the flicker:

If there is no flicker, it's not operating at 60Hz, above 85Hz the flicker will start going away completely, check the menu on the FW900, it should tell you what refresh rate it's operating at.
...
The number of frames the display adapter outputs is irrelevant with regards to CRT's and flicker.
A CRT will blank the screen and redraw it from lines moving from left to right one line at the time, below ~85Hz this process is visible and perceived as flicker.
The refresh rate is the number of times per second the entire screen is redrawn.
A TFT doesn't work that way and will have no flicker even at 25Hz (it will have severe lag and latency as such a low refresh rate though).
Flicker is the main reason why most people hate CRT's, a lot of people never cared to configure them and ended up looking at 60Hz until they where saved by TFT's.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=117223

But your post make me want to try and see how it looks.

Your monitor does not accept component video (YPbPr) over its RGB inputs, so your plan will not work in general.

You will need to either use an HDMI-to-VGA adapter, or you will need to use a YPbPr-to-RGB adapter like the GARO. I've had problems with the GARO outputting low quality sync that my projector and OSSC don't like, but its VGA output seems to be better, and you should be able to use it directly.

Be warned that while some consoles such as the Wii support 480p (your monitor's minimum resolution), they are not guaranteed to output 480p all the time, and some games may force the Wii into 480i mode, which will not work on your monitor. If you want to play consoles that mix 480i and 480p, you would need to use something like the OSSC or Framemeister to upscale the signal before converting it to RGB for your monitor.

I suspect that an OSSC combined with a good HDMI-to-VGA device would be a good solution for your monitor.

Thank you so much Guspaz, I cannot ask for a better answer to my question.

I was searching online the manual of the gdm fw 900 to check if it accept component, but you understood perfectly. Thank you again!

[BazookaBen]

Batemen, I need to clear up a few things for you.

First 60hz is fine on your monitor. When people criticize 60hz on CRT's they're mostly complaining about text-based stuff, like web-browsing, at 60hz. For games and video, you probably won't notice the flicker, and if you do, it will only be in extremely bright scenes. For the most part, 60hz is fine and looks beautiful. So of course, when you're browsing the web on your desktop PC, you'll want to put it at 85hz. But if have a game, say Battlefield 1, that you can only hit 60hz at your desired settings, it will look fine. I play Street Fighter V at 2176x1224 @ 60hz and it looks really, really good.

And yeah, as others have said, you cannot run component to your monitor without a converter like the Audio Authority 9A65 to convert to RGB. But with PS2, you can actually use component cables to send an RGsB signal that will be accepted by your monitor, assuming you've enabled 480p in the game.

[bateman82]

Thanks for your experience BazookaBen, I've always played with my pc at a much higher framerate then 60hz and I've never noticed any flicker at all.

I've got a crazy idea: what about a PS4 pro via hd fury to gdm fw900?

Almost all titles are rendered not in native 4k resolution, can be a perfect match. Maybe someone who has both can try.

[BazookaBen]

I guess another important thing I need to mention, and this is something lots of people don't quite understand, is that you need match your refresh rate to your frame rate to have smooth animation. That's why with a game like Street Fighter V, which is locked to 60fps in the game's engine, needs to be played at 60hz. If you try to play it at 75hz or 90hz, it will stutter like crazy and look like it's running lower than 60fps.

As for the PS4 Pro running 4k through an HD Fury on a CRT: that's not possible. First, there is no CRT I'm aware of that can display 4k at 60hz. The FW900 can do 4k interlaced, but I don't think any consumer hardware outside of video cards support that. Second, no HD Fury can run at a pixel clock high enough to hit 4k, and I'm unaware of any other DAC that can.

But if the PS4 Pro ever gets an update that adds 1440p, you could do that.

[orange808]

I guess another important thing I need to mention, and this is something lots of people don't quite understand, is that you need match your refresh rate to your frame rate to have smooth animation. That's why with a game like Street Fighter V, which is locked to 60fps in the game's engine, needs to be played at 60hz. If you try to play it at 75hz or 90hz, it will stutter like crazy and look like it's running lower than 60fps.

As for the PS4 Pro running 4k through an HD Fury on a CRT: that's not possible. First, there is no CRT I'm aware of that can display 4k at 60hz. The FW900 can do 4k interlaced, but I don't think any consumer hardware outside of video cards support that. Second, no HD Fury can run at a pixel clock high enough to hit 4k, and I'm unaware of any other DAC that can.

But if the PS4 Pro ever gets an update that adds 1440p, you could do that.

The HDFury Linker can downscale 4k to 1080p. Chain the Linker into an HDFury 2 and output 1080p to the CRT.

Technically, there's no reason why he couldn't use an FW900.

[bateman82]

Thanks for the suggestion orange808, but I will become too much expensive for my budget

@ BazookaBen: I really appreciate your experience with pc monitor and resolution (very few "pro enhaced" ps4 games support real 4k, I don't know for the dashboard, vs the "2304x1440" max resolution of the fw900).

Speaking about the fw900 as a monitor for retro (like a bvm) I've found this, from Fudoh:

Any idea on the differences between the Sony FW900 and the Sony BVM-D24E1U? Obviously the FW900 has VGA but they both have BNC inputs and I've heard rumor the CRT tubes are actually the same.

the tube is the, but it's a different chassis. The FW900 needs 31khz, while the D24 obviously takes 15khz as well.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58428

I know I prefer my 15khz games at 15khz on my BVM, when I play it upscaled to 31khz VGA on a computer CRT monitor it doesn't look quite right.

can't agree on this one. I have a FW900 with me right now and using it with a XRGB, it looks 100% like 15khz on a BVM. You can check the snapshots in my sales thread.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47470




Do you think I will have the same "underscan effect" show in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffiR4E1id-8

only with a XPC-4 or Silicon Optix Image Anyplace and the fw900? Just like the BVM-D24E1U?

[Fudoh]

You don't have to push the FW to it's limits. While I haven't tried I'm sure that a PS4 Pro looks stunning on a FW900 in 1080p.

Do you think I will have the same "underscan effect" show in this video: only with a XPC-4 or Silicon Optix Image Anyplace and the fw900? Just like the BVM-D24E1U?

these are CRTs with complex geometry controls. You can adjust the under/overscan any way you like.

[brownvim]

The PS4 Pro does look stunning on a FW900. Less games running at a criminal 30fps the better.

I have a problem with mine though, the bottom of the screen has become magnetised which means the colours are distorted in that section

https://postimg.org/image/ovagncnx9/

I really need to get it fixed.

[brownvim]

@orange808

What would be the benefit of using the HDFury Linker to downscale from 4K? Could you possible get better colours (HDR)?

The PS4 Pro already downsamples internally from the higher internal resolution to 1080p so you get pretty much no aliasing.

[BazookaBen]

vs the "2304x1440" max resolution of the fw900

As I said earlier, you can use CRU on PC to create any resolution you wish, within the limitations of your monitor. The FW900 can technically output 4K interlaced, though due to the dot pitch it won't be nearly as sharp as a 4K TV.

In regards to the PS4 Pro, as others have said, just set it to 1080p and you'll still get some impressive picture quality from the super-sampling.

But I have to ask, why use PS4 pro when 95% of the games will also be released on PC?

With PC, you will have the ability to select whatever resolution works best for you, thanks to CRU, as well as whatever frame rate you wish. For example, I'm currently playing Battlefield 1 at a locked 45fps at 1680x1260. In CRU I created a 1680x1260 @ 135hz interlaced resolution, and then capped the frame rate to 45 in-game. 135/45=3, so I get perfectly smooth frame-pacing, with decent input response. I'd like to do more than 45fps but that's the best a single Radeon 380x can do with a decent resolution and Ultra settings.

Once crossfire support is incorporated, I'll be able to use my second 380x to hit way higher frame rates, and I'll create a new resolution, something like 1792x1344@75hz will be the new sweet spot for that game.

I have a problem with mine though, the bottom of the screen has become magnetised which means the colours are distorted in that section

https://postimg.org/image/ovagncnx9/

I really need to get it fixed.

Have any speakers nearby? That looks like you have a center-channel speaker from a surround sound system below the monitor.

[brownvim]

Yes a speaker was the culprit, but it's been moved for a few months now and it's still not going away. If I put the speaker back there and angle it the opposite way the distortaion goes away but I'm thinking that's probably going to do more damage in the long run.

I need to demagnetise it somehow.

[orange808]

@orange808

What would be the benefit of using the HDFury Linker to downscale from 4K? Could you possible get better colours (HDR)?

The PS4 Pro already downsamples internally from the higher internal resolution to 1080p so you get pretty much no aliasing.

The primary use case for the Linker is when you have no option to downscale 4k.

In some cases, you can hold on to 4:4:4 color space from 4k video, so that's a possible benefit. You can use the Linker to bypass stupid HDCP crap that stops some televisions from displaying 4k content as well.

Like most of the HDFury lineup, the Linker insures that you can hook up new devices to a legacy display and it will "just work".

When the next generation of 4k only content arrives, the FW900 will still be viable with a Linker.