Your favorite Treasure shmup?

[AxelMill]

As suggested here.
What's your favorite Treasure shmup?

I'd say...
Not V. I value aesthetics as much as the gameplay, if not more, and I found V to be pretty lacking in this regard. Don't get me wrong, it looks amazing for a PS2 game, but most stages are a whole lot of grey. Grey space station after brown space station (twice) after grey space station after grey space station with green goo. Stage 3 and 5 are pretty much the only breaths of fresh air you'll get, and even then, the latter still has brown spaceships here and there.
Gameplay-wise, it's Gradius, with more bullets, even harder than normal (IMO), and featuring the glorious Type 2 ship.

As for Ikaruga, I am terrible at the color-switching mechanic. Really terrible. I can't judge that because of this, so let's leave it at that. Anyway, it's the most memorable vertical shmup out there (IMO, again). Every enemy wave is unique, you can remember each and every one of those even after having played a stage a handful of times. Music and bosses are great, too.

Finally, I played very little of Silvergun, and on the Mame no less, which lags a lot and outright crashes sometimes. Despite that, I loved the variety of weapons and insane amount of bosses, though I greatly disliked that you can not kill the later bosses if you don't have a high enough level, forcing you to chain exceptionally well or bust. Ikaruga get all this flak for "not being fun if you don't score" or whatever, yet this one doesn't make you play at all.

In the end I vote...

Spoiler

nothing because i barely play the three
the one i played the most is v and i all but credit-fed up until stage 6 up until now

EDIT (11/19/16): Added Silpheed: The Lost Planet because it's a shmup and is made by Treasure.

[MintyTheCat]

RS is amazing but for me it is ikaruga that I prefer. The yin-yang mechanism is very deep. I love the aesthetic too. It was the reason I bought a DC back in the early 2000s.

I own Gradius 5 but have only played it once as I have not completed the other Gradius titles before 5 and I play them in sequence.

[kid aphex]

Gradius was my first videogame and Treasure my favorite developer. I still recall playing Gradius V for the first time on a busy E3 show-floor and not wanting to ever be pulled away. It's release was a landmark in my life.

Even so, Ikaruga gets my vote.

[Jeneki]

The boss fights in Radiant Silvergun will always tip it towards my favor, as they are exactly what I am looking for in a shmup. Lots of individual bits to blow off one at a time and wear the boss down. Especially the ones where destroying parts triggers bigger, meaner attachments as the fight goes on. It makes the fights dynamic and lots of interesting things can happen depending on the order I tackle things. Getting that 100% destruction feels great.

[EmperorIng]

Gradius feels a lot less Treasure (because it's Gradius, ha). Of the three, it's the best by a wide margin, but that's not an interesting discussion!

If I am purely going by what is considered "normal" Treasure fare, I feel that Radiant Silvergun is more filled with the manic energy and the "throw every single idea in" design philosophy that I consider classic Treasure. While it's unrefined -and especially anal about weapon power-ups*- it is bursting with creativity and chock full of interesting and memorable boss encounters. The game requires precise stage knowledge to navigate effectively, but throws so many different shootemup boss designs and gimmicks that offer more in the way of spontaneity or at least novel approaches (later on - the early bosses are pretty rote) and keep things feeling exciting and fresh. Worth noting is that I love how so many bosses take advantage of the whole screen: spinning around, attacking you from behind, and so on. It at least acknowledges your arsenal and forces you to use your weapons effectively; of course, it also makes the fights themselves more interesting than the "stay at the top" boss variety.

Ikaruga is much more refined and honed-down to its central concept, but feels far more sterile. It's better to play, for sure, but I don't think I'd consider making that the better game of the two, when looking at the whole package.

*in my experience (haven't 1CC'd yet), chaining only red enemies can be circumvented somewhat by racking up special bonuses (red+blue+yellow, then chain yellow) in each stage, plus killing bosses 100%. It makes it a little more forgiving to not be constantly worrying about where red enemies are, but many spots are very exacting in how to pull off a special bonus. It's nonetheless the biggest flaw of the original release.

[Lawfer]

Gradius V

[davyK]

Strong selection of games there - and each quite different.

Radiant Silvergun for me. I particularly like the wide weapon selection and the fact the game constantly challenges you to find the right route and weapon combo to progress. I tend to ignore the chaining apart from the very early levels - just not good enough yet. But I like the fact that it is there and offers more gameplay should I ever get a clear run.

RSG also got me into importing games. You don't ever forget your first !

[MarioNintendo]

Ikaruga. I was floored by the black-white mechanism, and also by the subtle but crucial differences between each difficulty setting in the game. This game wants your respect instead of your frustration.

[Kobayashi]

I have tremendous respect for Treasure as a developer, not only in shmups but also in other genres of video games. This team that once was part of the Old Konami (in those old days, Konami was a super developer compared to Nintendo and Sega in creation and development) presented us with wonderful games like Gunstar Heroes, Sin & Punishment and of course the three great shmups mentioned in this poll .

Well, I own all three cited in the poll and I'd like to talk a little about each one of them and then present my conclusion:

- Gradius V. My american physical copy of Gradius V for PS2 I bought brand new and sealed in the same year of release (2004), from that moment on I already knew that I had a special game in my hands. After playing it for a long time, I concluded that it's the best Gradius ever conceived. Treasure's work in this game was exceptional, from the beautiful graphics to the well-crafted gameplay, we have a masterpiece and one of the best games in the whole library of the PS2 (which is no small thing, since it's a system full of great games). This review (of 4 pages) made in August 2004 by Kikizo represents exactly what I think about this great game: http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/revi ... s_v_p1.asp

- Ikaruga. First released for arcade and then ported to Japanese Dreamcast, then GameCube, Xbox 360, PC Steam and even Mobile Phones. I have no doubt that Ikaruga is the best known and popular of these three. Considered as a spiritual successor to the impressive Radiant Silvergun, released years earlier by Treasure, the game has received great reviews and consequently caught my attention. I bought it around 2004 or 2005 in the US version for the Nintendo GameCube and many years later also in digital version for my Xbox 360, through Xbox Live Arcade. What I think about Ikaruga? Yes, it's a great shmup and its dual-polarity concept is awesome. Although intense is the shortest game of these 3, with only 5 distinct stages. You must obligatorily dominate its chain system for high scores and rankings, so some people consider Ikaruga as being half shmup, half puzzle. I'm not good at hunting for chains, so I consider myself a mediocre Ikaruga player, but I really like this game and I really appreciate its exceptional soundtrack, especially stage 4.

- Radiant Silvergun. This is a very, very impressive shmup. Released first for arcade and then ported with several improvements for Sega Saturn and in 2011 ported in HD version for Xbox 360, through Xbox Live Arcade. For a long time I wanted to get my hands on the Saturn version of this game, but the inflated prices always discouraged me (usually above $150), until the day Treasure announced plans to launch a version for the Xbox 360, through XBLA, so on the exact same day of the launch I finally got this masterpiece. The game has already begun to impress me immediately with the story, the animes, the songs... I really like the variety of weapons available from the beginning, each associated with a different button, the epic encounters with the bosses and there is a great variety of them. For me, it's a game very superior to Ikaruga and Gradius V. In fact, Radiant Silvergun is at least two steps ahead of these in the matter of genius and, without any doubt, is the best shmup made by Treasure.

Although I recognize the superiority of Radiant Silvergun over Ikaruga and Gradius V, the topic asks me which is my favorite. For me, the concept about best and favorite are different. If the question were "what is the best shmup made by Treasure?" I wouldn't hesitate to vote for Radiant Silvergun as the best, but the poll asks me which is my favorite, so the panorama changes for me because of these three shmups, Gradius V is the shmup developed by Treasure that I most enjoy playing at the moment and also the one that I consider the most fun. I admit that I need to refine my skills in both Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun and in the future I may change my mind, but for the moment my vote as favorite goes to Gradius V.

[AxelMill]

Although I recognize the superiority of Radiant Silvergun over Ikaruga and Gradius V, the topic asks me which is my favorite. For me, the concept about best and favorite are different. If the question were "what is the best shmup made by Treasure?" I wouldn't hesitate to vote for Radiant Silvergun as the best, but the poll asks me which is my favorite, so the panorama changes for me because of these three shmups, Gradius V is the shmup developed by Treasure that I most enjoy playing at the moment and also the one that I consider the most fun.

Kudos to you.

I was actually going to name the topic "Favorite [...]" and the poll "Best [...]", for whatever reason, and they were called that way for the first few seconds, but then I realized that no, idiot, they're entirely different, and edited it. I even wrote about this very distinction (in a much more rudimental way, again, kudos) elsewhere.

[Special World]

Ikaruga. Gradius V is very slick and fun but also very bland and samey. Doesn't have the energy or style of other Gradius games. Love how the options work, though. Radiant Silvergun I played only briefly and did not like even a little bit.

I consider Treasure's run and gun games and also Sin and Punishment to be shmups, but I guess I'm in the minority there. Even so, Ikaruga is the best game Treasure has made imo. They have a lot of games that shy short of greatness, and then stuff like Bangai-O which I consider to be just absolutely unenjoyable.

[davyK]

Love Bangai-O - mainly for its weirdness.

The thing with Radiant Silvergun is it is actually quite underwhelming when you first play it -at least that's how I found it - quite possibly because of the unrealistic level of hype surrounding it.

It's only when I went back to it after a while that I appreciated it. It's a very clever game with lots of lovely ideas.

[Xyga]

Still Radiant Silvergun for me, that game is packing tons of awesome things that will remain unique in a shmup likely forever.

[soprano1]

Gradius V. Radiant Silvergun's weapon combination is very cool, but the game just doesn't click for me. Same for Ikaruga.
The shooting sections in Astro Boy Omega Factor are also nice.

[Xer Xian]

Epic boss battles, diverse and upgradable weaponry, an original scoring system, even a (kind of) relevant story - Radiant Silvergun has a lot going for it. I understand perfectly why it got so much praise at the time and is still regarded as one of the best in the genre. Still, I find some of the game mechanics and aesthetics to have aged a bit. Nonetheless, it remains charming and very much Treasure. If it were a car, it would be a Mercedes 500K:



While Ikaruga is a spiritual sequel to RS, it goes in a very different direction – it is a much more focused endeavour, built around a unique concept (black and white polarity) that embraces both game mechanics and the scoring system. Whatever is lost in the transition is more than made up for with an incredibly coherent and finely-tuned game design (across all of the several game modes). Ikaruga may lack the thrill and fanfare of manic shmups, and it may well not meet everyone’s taste, but no one that invests some time in it – or attentively watches some super-play - should fail to appreciate just what a stunningly polished and well-crafted game it is. If it were a car, it would be a Mercedes 300SL “Gullwing”:



As for Gradius V, it is a very good installment of a historic series, but I don’t see much of that Treasure sparkle in it. If it were a car, it would be a Maybach S:



Guess what I voted for.

[Van_Artic]

I'd say...
Not V. I value aesthetics as much as the gameplay, if not more, and I found V to be pretty lacking in this regard. Don't get me wrong, it looks amazing for a PS2 game, but most stages are a whole lot of grey. Grey space station after brown space station (twice) after grey space station after grey space station with green goo. Stage 3 and 5 are pretty much the only breaths of fresh air you'll get, and even then, the latter still has brown spaceships here and there.

because ikaruga has colors other than sepia
ooh wait

[copy-paster]

Of course it's either Ikaruga or Gradius V, had a love/hate relationship with RSG.

[d0s]

sin and punishment/sin and punishment 2

[AxelMill]

I'd say...
Not V. I value aesthetics as much as the gameplay, if not more, and I found V to be pretty lacking in this regard. Don't get me wrong, it looks amazing for a PS2 game, but most stages are a whole lot of grey. Grey space station after brown space station (twice) after grey space station after grey space station with green goo. Stage 3 and 5 are pretty much the only breaths of fresh air you'll get, and even then, the latter still has brown spaceships here and there.

because ikaruga has colors other than sepia
ooh wait

The "grey brown grey grey w/ green grey brown" wasn't the focus/problem, "space station" was. If they had made one blue or red, you would still fly through generic space stations, albeit differently-colored, for 6/8 of the game.

And I'm a stupid f**king idiot because the pink "CELL" one was stage 4, not 3.

[Sumez]

Guess what I voted for.

I literally have no idea which of those cars is cooler, they all look pretty cool to me.

Why do people who care about cars always think other people care so much about cars that they can explain their points by making comparisons to cars? It always makes the subject much more confusing to me. And it's a surprisingly common thing.

[AxelMill]

Guess what I voted for.

I literally have no idea which of those cars is cooler, they all look pretty cool to me.

Why do people who care about cars always think other people care so much about cars that they can explain their points by making comparisons to cars? It always makes the subject much more confusing to me. And it's a surprisingly common thing.

Well, 95% of what he wrote had absolutely nothing to do with cars: first they told us what they thought of each game, then at the very end compared them to a car: RSG is a great, but old, Mercedes, Ika is a shiny new great Mercedes, and V is a Mercedes-wannabe.
I guess they voted Ikaruga.

Woah, where did all those RSG votes come from? Ikaruga isn't dominating anymore. It's still winning, but it doesn't have as many votes as the other two combined.

[Sumez]

Obviously the stuff he wrote about the games was fine.
But there's absolutely no chance I could guess what the car comparisons was supposed to mean.

[Xer Xian]

Obviously the stuff he wrote about the games was fine.
But there's absolutely no chance I could guess what the car comparisons was supposed to mean.

Ahah, sorry about that. Of course I am not going to talk about cars anymore in a shmups thread (thank you Axel for interpreting my thoughts), but unknowingly you did catch at least one of the points I was trying to make - they are all beautiful games with a soul (one perhaps less so), and which is the best is up to personal preference.

The Gullwing sure is stunning though..

[Sumez]

Don't take my post as a complaint, you're making good points. I'm just always baffled at the widespread assumption that everyone is into cars It's almost worse than the epxectation of me caring about what's happening in soccer matches, and being up to date on who is playing who.

[Special World]

just noticed

"Ikaruka"

[AxelMill]

oh

[cj iwakura]

Epic boss battles, diverse and upgradable weaponry, an original scoring system, even a (kind of) relevant story - Radiant Silvergun has a lot going for it. I understand perfectly why it got so much praise at the time and is still regarded as one of the best in the genre. Still, I find some of the game mechanics and aesthetics to have aged a bit. Nonetheless, it remains charming and very much Treasure. If it were a car, it would be a Mercedes 500K:



While Ikaruga is a spiritual sequel to RS, it goes in a very different direction – it is a much more focused endeavour, built around a unique concept (black and white polarity) that embraces both game mechanics and the scoring system. Whatever is lost in the transition is more than made up for with an incredibly coherent and finely-tuned game design (across all of the several game modes). Ikaruga may lack the thrill and fanfare of manic shmups, and it may well not meet everyone’s taste, but no one that invests some time in it – or attentively watches some super-play - should fail to appreciate just what a stunningly polished and well-crafted game it is. If it were a car, it would be a Mercedes 300SL “Gullwing”:



As for Gradius V, it is a very good installment of a historic series, but I don’t see much of that Treasure sparkle in it. If it were a car, it would be a Maybach S:



Guess what I voted for.

So what would Bangai-O be? Because that's my vote.
(Probably a Bond vehicle with a million weapons inside it.)

[Austin]

All three are excellent. However, it's Silvergun for me, hands-down.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's a really hard pick between Gradius V and Ikaruga.

Ika is an aesthetic masterpiece with a brilliant system, level design like no other, and one of the best final bosses in the history of the genre.

Gradius V on the other hand is an immense crystallization of the best aspects of danmaku and old-fashioned environmental hazard shmups, brought together with typically characterful Treasure player mechanics (option control) and boss / gimmick designs.

RSG I haven't played enough (and I wonder how many people in this thread have made it past the "first" two stages), but from what I have played, I feel like it's basically Gradius 5 with more interesting player abilities (all the weapons) but hampered by a clusterfuck of a scoring system that the game forces dependency on. It goes last for now.


I guess I'd have to say Ika is the best designed game to pick up and play anytime, but Gradius V does hold a special affection in my heart and it's very difficult voting for Ika over it. All 3 games are inimitable in their mechanics and style, which flaws aside, is a testament to the developers creativity.

[Kobayashi]

Epic boss battles, diverse and upgradable weaponry, an original scoring system, even a (kind of) relevant story - Radiant Silvergun has a lot going for it.

I never cared much about stories in shmups, but I confess that the story told in Radiant Silvergun caught me. I consider the story clever and pleased me the way it is presented and developed until its end. The animes help a lot to create a climate of mystery and universal hecatomb that permeates the whole game. The story ends up being an additional incentive to finish the game.

Although much less ambitious, I also like the story told in Gradius V, involving temporal displacement. The end of the end, however, is an obvious cliché for any Gradius.

With regard to Ikaruga, although the story is described with a certain level of detail in the manual, during the game itself there is only the presentation of quick and enigmatic captions at the beginning of each stage, something that Irem copied for use in R-Type Final. Even in such detail, Ikaruga retains its charm.

Just one last comment: although repetitive sometimes, I really like the soundtrack of Radiant Silvergun. I can not explain, but the soundtrack of this game express a certain greatness that ends up marrying very well with it.