Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BrianC]

Surprisingly, even the odd CoCo port of Super Pitfall has that animation.

[Sumez]

Wait, Son Son for Famicom is a bad port? It's always been a game I enjoyed picking up for a quick play. Never did play the arcade version though.

[copy-paster]

infamous kusoge purveyor Micronics, to determine just how many Famicom games they churned out.

Another "ghost developer" ?

The well-regardde SFC Raiden Trad is also developed by them.

not up there with Salamander

Why you despised the FC Salamander, perhaps it's "ugly-looking" ?

[BIL]

The well-regardde SFC Raiden Trad is also developed by them.

Most on this forum seem to dislike if not outright hate SFC Raiden. 3: I was thoroughly unimpressed by it... I do own and love Micronet and Hudson's respective MD and HuCard ports, both of which capture the game's rugged simplicity in progressively milder console forms.

Why you despised the FC Salamander, perhaps it's "ugly-looking" ?

No, what I'm saying is FC Salamander is at the upper end of FC port quality. It's Image Fight that makes me want to hang myself.

[BrianC]

Wait, Son Son for Famicom is a bad port? It's always been a game I enjoyed picking up for a quick play. Never did play the arcade version though.

Son son is slow and flickery compared to the arcade. AC version is in Capcom Arcade Cabinet, which was done nicely by M2.

I never heard of Raiden SNES being well regarded. It's a terrible port. The MD version of Raiden gets a bum rap. It's one of the more accurate ports of the game.

[Sumez]

Finally got that 1CC!

Spoiler

Man, that took longer than I expected. This time around all my deaths along the way were just stupid mistakes, including just walking straight into a hole, killing a non-threat weapon-dropping enemy in the room of the stage 5 boss on the second loop, etc.

[BIL]

Congraturation indeed. Dai's a brilliantly tricky game to keep under control.

Enemies With Jars™ are the nemesis of any 1CC/1LC attempt. I've been toying with practicing the other weapons (meaning anything but lance or dagger) as some sort of contingency plan if/when I get screwed over.

[Sumez]

The sword can be a lot of fun to play with. The torch, I mean FIREWATER, can actually be really good on stage 4, but it's absolutely hopeless on the following stage, so you really don't want to keep it. The discus I find is better than the lance and has very good utility - not that the stage 2 boss is usually a threat, but the big hitbox is good at wreacking absolute havoc on it, which is fun.

The worst for me is the axe, because its ridiculous trajectory can be a direct cause of death in so many situations.

[BIL]

The axe's abysmal rate of fire (compounded by its piercing property) makes it my most hated by far. Only use I know for it is st3's opening vert scroller - it cuts through the scads of 1HP imps pretty nicely. A deathtrap with enemies spawning nearby though, ie most of the game.

Sword is a favourite of mine. Not something I'll switch to voluntarily on a serious run, but it's fun to experiment with its totally different methods. Obviously no range, but the sheer power and speed largely counter that - even a rushing pigman can't survive the butchering fury. Hopping over the st2.2 flytraps' shots to weedwhack 'em up close never gets old! Its magic is pretty useful too, I've completely steamrolled st5's opening Arremer/Dragon battery with it a few times.

[Sumez]

Talk about Makaimura.

What are people's standing on Chohmakaimura vs. Daimakaimura (edit: Super Ghouls n Ghosts vs. Ghouls n Ghosts)? Not that there is any need for dismissing either game, since they are both amazing, and there is nothing stopping you from playing both. But I'm interested in what people think about how the two games play compare to eachother, since they feel like quite different approaches on how to follow up on the original Makaimura.

I have played Choh a lot, but never seriously enough to truly judge it, even though for a long while it was my favourite of the series. Yesterday, high on my Dai rush, I decided to run a single credit feeding loop through the game, just to get a feel for it - looking for chests, figuring out where and how it's best to pick up armor upgrades, and experimenting with different approaches to the enemies and challenges in the game.

My immediate reaction is that Choh actually feels a lot easier, despite always hearing that people consider it the toughest of the series - although it's probably more challenging due to the vastly longer game. However, where Dai's genius lies in the constant onslaught of enemies and the absolute randomness of their patterns, Choh feels much more static and methodical, allowing the player to learn set patterns for how to deal with every single obstacle, and move slowly forward, picking out one enemy at a time - an approach Daimakaimura would have punished harder than Contra 3's vibration fest could ever do.
Not that we're talking Hard Corps level patterns here, but compared to Dai, it definitely feels a lot more deterministic to me.

In general, I think Choh feels more like a direct followup to Makaimura than a continuation of the direction Dai would go. Some elements do repeat - the magic and gold armor obviously, and some enemies are obviously successors to the prequel's - ice pillers being similar to the vines, Cockatrice behaving somewhat like Shielder, etc. But a higher focus on platforming and learning patterns and manipulating enemies does throw me back to the first game in the series. Obviously, the lack of attacking up or down means the gameplay also feels much more in vein with the original game, and the double jump is a very fitting addition that goes well with the gameplay, retaining more of the original feel than Dai's up/down attacks did.

The arremers, too, seem to be a return to the first game. In Dai you can usually wing it as long as you have fast reactions and abuse the ability to shoot above your head. The lack of this, as well as much faster swooping attacks and a hell of a lot more hitpoints, makes this strategy deadly. If you wanna take them out with the knife in Choh, and don't have the luxury of cheaping them with magic, your best bet is to approach them like you would do in Makaimura, and wait for them to charge you head on. I kind of love that, but once you have the pattern down, they are pretty much a non-threat.

Finally, the auto scroller on stage 2. It just sucks. It would have been a better game without it.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Yeah, Super is a great game still but I definitely don't think it compares to Ghouls. As you say, it's far more static than either of its predecessors, and that combined with the game's already slow pace (+brutal slowdown if you're playing the original version) and formidable length drag it down for me. I'm glad we eventually got Goku Makaimura Kai to roll vertical shooting and double jumping into one package.

[BIL]

I like all three games, but currently Dai is my clear favourite and the one I've spent the most time on (haven't 1CCd either of the other two yet, I usually get beaten down by the end of their respective loops and put 'em back in the todo list). So I can definitely get it being the odd one out. The combination of simmering RNG threat and generally improv-friendly (at times improv-demanding) action isn't as brutal, but I find it a lot more consistently exciting, and it's hardly an easy game; just relatively flexible.

I miss the vertical shot in Chou, tbh. Removing it feels almost like taking away Contra III or Ninja Spirit's equivalents. Obviously it's not quite that extreme since the game's designed around the absence, but smooth leaping downshots and desperate upshot saves are among my favourite sidescroller mechanics... so it inevitably feels a step back. Dai was hardly Castlevania IV in this regard.

Chou's doublejump, OTOH, is a masterpiece of the mechanic and a superb riff on fixed-direction jumping (out of the frying pan, etc). Nails a balance of gravity-defying exhilaration and bloodcurdling "Oh SHIIIT!" dread. Even st2.2's pace-stumping autoscroller is a little more tolerable when I'm hauling Arthur up n' over deadly spiky coral without getting his knackers caught. ^__^ (though yes, the immensely powerful depiction of a raging sea aside, that autoscroller rivals Hard Corps Jungle Boss tm and Super Shinobi II Retirement Home Elevator on my "needs a muhfuckin edit" list).

[Sumez]

Best double-jump moments :
2: Fighting the plants by the edge of the cliff on the ice stage, dodging their shots without touching the ground.
1: The grey cockatrice heads stretching in your direction, while you're abusing your gravity defying skills to mock them right up in their face whereever they go.

Did any games even have double jump before ChohSGnG? I'm quite certain I had never seen it before when I first played this game as a kid.

[Shoryukev]

While on the subject of Arthur and pals, I played through Gargoyle's Quest for Gameboy this weekend. It was short and sweet, but very fun. Controlling Firebrand feels very good, but I wish they would have given you his trademark downward arc "whoosh" across the screen move we all despise so much LOL.

Are the other two games worth picking up? I'd recommend the GB title to anyone since it's a good game and still pretty cheap....but GQ2 and Demon's Crest are pretty expensive.

[Sumez]

I can definitely recommend the other GQ games.

2 is around the same quality as the first. It's been a while since I played through it, but I recall them being very similar. First game had a little more interesting level design, but suffers a bit from the very limited resolution and lack of colors compared to the second. Second game also does away with the random encounters which I think was a major inconvenience in the first game. However, with no random encounters there's pretty much nothing of interest in the world map, making it an artifact of what could have been, at best. I would have loved to see the games develop further with more content, and much larger and more involved overworlds, towns, etc. Both are, unfortunately, really short games, and feel more like prototypes than fully evolved products, as with a lot of NES era Capcom games unfortunately.

Instead of evolving the formula, the third game removed the overworld completely, and replaces it with an interactive mode 7 map, which is pretty cool, but ultimately pointless except from finding a couple of small "hidden" huts with minigames or stores. The game is absolutely beautiful, extremely thematic and atmospheric, and has some of my favourite SNES music as well.
Gameplay-wise it's definitely the most refined of the series. At first it comes across as fairly difficult, but when you get a hang of it, it's a really easy game, and like the other two, it's over just when it finally starts to pick up, once again feeling more like a prototype than a full fledged adventure. I would have loved to see where this series could go, but unfortunately this is a possibility forever lost to time.

[copy-paster]

Finally got that 1CC!

What version are you playing? Arcade or MD? Dai or Ghouls?

What are people's standing on Chohmakaimura vs. Daimakaimura

I haven't played Chou in ages, but I'd remember it was a amazing game with great variety of stages. Unfortunately it was suffered by the clumsy and slow-paced controls, missing vertical shooting, and long ass fuck autoscroller. If only the game plays like Dai... (still keep the double jump of course)

[Sumez]

Finally got that 1CC!

What version are you playing? Arcade or MD? Dai or Ghouls?

Dai, original arcade pcb like a boss

[BIL]

Did any games even have double jump before ChohSGnG? I'm quite certain I had never seen it before when I first played this game as a kid.

Super Shinobi at least (1989) - another masterpiece example. (and I didn't know until very recently that its shuriken burst is specifically designed to stomp anything you'll be landing on - very handy for aggressive POW play!)

Arremer 2 gets my approval for sure. I prefer its action to the SFC game's... there's a more consistent emphasis on gruelingly athletic walljumping and hovering, something rapidly lost for the Blazon's various transformations. Blazon is absolutely magical from a more atmospheric standpoint, and certainly a solid sidescroller in its own right. Provided you're not looking for mainline Makaimura's enduringly brutal arcade style, you won't go wrong with either game.

Second game also does away with the random encounters which I think was a major inconvenience in the first game.

I managed to play the trilogy totally ass-backwards, working from the SFC to GB... and holy cow those random encounters chafe after two games' absence. I don't mind 'em (I actually like the GB's notably cruel stage design best of all, though the FC game plays smoother) - but yeah, definitely not missed.

[Shoryukev]

I can definitely recommend the other GQ games.

2 is around the same quality as the first. It's been a while since I played through it, but I recall them being very similar. First game had a little more interesting level design, but suffers a bit from the very limited resolution and lack of colors compared to the second. Second game also does away with the random encounters which I think was a major inconvenience in the first game. However, with no random encounters there's pretty much nothing of interest in the world map, making it an artifact of what could have been, at best. I would have loved to see the games develop further with more content, and much larger and more involved overworlds, towns, etc. Both are, unfortunately, really short games, and feel more like prototypes than fully evolved products, as with a lot of NES era Capcom games unfortunately.

Instead of evolving the formula, the third game removed the overworld completely, and replaces it with an interactive mode 7 map, which is pretty cool, but ultimately pointless except from finding a couple of small "hidden" huts with minigames or stores. The game is absolutely beautiful, extremely thematic and atmospheric, and has some of my favourite SNES music as well.
Gameplay-wise it's definitely the most refined of the series. At first it comes across as fairly difficult, but when you get a hang of it, it's a really easy game, and like the other two, it's over just when it finally starts to pick up, once again feeling more like a prototype than a full fledged adventure. I would have loved to see where this series could go, but unfortunately this is a possibility forever lost to time.

The random encounters were a bit of an annoyance, but I could see how taking them out would make the overworld seem pointless. The length of the first one feels about right for a gameboy game, but for a console game that would seem a bit short. Overall I enjoyed it, and if the other two are more of the same then I'd be happy to add them to the collection (once I hunt for a good deal that is). Might be worth picking up an NES/famicom adapter (or taking apart my 5 screw games and try to find one) since the famicom port is about 1/4 the cost of the NES one.

I got the same impression of the first one on gameboy. At first it seems very tough, but then once things start rolling you just kinda steamroll through the whole game without any problems. The only times I struggled was one part where I had to find the right path to get through (the hint of 5th from the north-most point didn't seem to line-up with the actual map), and the final boss. I was having a hell of a time dodging the heat sinking projectile while circling around the boss getting the occasional hit in when he moves his hand out of the way so you can get a shot at his head.......then after 2-3 deaths I discovered you could knock out his heat sinking projectile by shooting it, making it a total pushover.

[BIL]

BTW, have some animated grafx pr0n from Blazon. Nothing too elaborate on my part, but hory shiet, those backgrounds (and dat delicately dark BGM) move me. It was tricky getting the ripples to loop just right!

Spoiler

^ Image URL ends in "GNG"

Spoiler

(minor spoiler for midgame boss)

Spoiler

Also this one Squire posted is killer. IT WAS DEAD, BUT ALIVE AT THE SAME TIME

Spoiler

[Sumez]

I actually managed to play the trilogy totally ass-backwards, working from the SFC to GB... and holy cow those random encounters chafe after two games' absence. I don't mind 'em (I actually like the GB's notably cruel stage design best of all, though the FC game plays smoother) - but yeah, definitely not missed.

Random encounters could have been a lot more bearable if there were actually some randomness to them. Instead it's just constant repetitions of the exact same goddamn battle in the same area, appearing at a stupidly high rate as well. I like stuff like this to add some "volume" to the overworld, but it wasn't well executed. Something similar to Zelda II's roaming enemies could have been fun, too.

[Sumez]

Demon's Crest/Blazon is video game porn at its absolutely highest quality. I can only dream and occasionally masturbate at the thought of what could have been if Capcom had given the game higher priority, or a full, epic Nintendo or Squaresoft style production scale.

[Shoryukev]

Wow those GIFs look absolutely fantastic, I've got to get my hands on a copy!

[BrianC]

Wow those GIFs look absolutely fantastic, I've got to get my hands on a copy!

I'm glad I got the game back when it was cheap. Frustrating how the US GB Gargoyle's Quest II was cancelled near release with no prototype that surfaced (it was reviewed in Nintendo Power), but at least there's a complete translation of the JP version.

[BIL]

I've been a bit tempted in the past to nab the Japanese GB Arremer 2... at the time though, there were other games I didn't have in any shape or form that took priority. Even if it's "just" the FC game downsized to GB, it's not easy to resist. ^w^

Ah, OG Gameboy. The most insidious format I've yet encountered! It doesn't take much more than a competent action game hewn out of that cruelly primitive monochrome to win my affection. Recently batted away a very nice Spartan X, just too damn lightweight compared to the original's immortal FC port. Currently rocking ten or so games, Bionic Commando the absolute sidescrolling champ with Contra, Dracula II, Arremer and Ninja Ryukenden filling out the midfield and Rubble Saver's alarming yet endearing "faxed to your GB from grandpa's office circa 1971" MSX-esque for avant garde factor. EDIT: aw cwap! BURGER TIME DX is great too, for more oldschool arcadey-type sidescrolling! (yep, this version does indeed scroll! but IDGAF tbh, single-screen platformers are good here) And a Metroid II is fine too.

As an aside, for topdown shooting everyone should play Totsugeki! Ponkotsu Tank aka Trax, ideally with one life = one credit stipulation. The sense of pummeling, razing devastation via dot-matrix warfare is inordinately gratifying! When those helldozers start levelling entire city blocks on a beeline for your little tank, ho ho hoooly shit. Like certain other cutting-edge action games (Ex Ranza MD, Omega Boost PS1) it both makes me ponder a hardware-upgraded sequel and doubt it needed one. For the love of god - tap the turret rotate button, don't hold it (latter is slow!).

The first Arremer's Japanese boxart rocks btw. Surprisingly abstract and \m/etal compared to the more straightforward FC, GB and SFC boxes. Despite the rather heavy badging+bordering (on an already teeeny-tiny JP GB box), I love the black/gold/red contrast and especially the focal image. Makes me think of Dario Argento's luridly gel-lit Inferno.

In hell, on fire, screaming in agony and/or ecstasy:

Spoiler

[Shoryukev]

I've had a new-kindled love for the original DMG the past few years. I modded mine with a backlight and the bivert chip (along with adding a border of electrical tape around the edges of the screen since the bivert makes the outside screen area glow super bright LOL) and have been using it quite a bit.

I'll try to take a picture of it tonight, the screen does look a little different than our nostalgic puke green gameboy screen.....but it pleases me that it's readable in any lighting with the mod. The 6 year old inside me is tickled pink with it, especially with the new reproduction glass screen cover. Been debating the pro-audio mod, some Gameboy games have incredible music and I'd like to do them as much justice as possible.

[BIL]

That sounds so cool, and also so much less punishing on the eyes. I've seen some very interesting modded GBs here in the hardware forum, but it was long before I'd regained an interest in the platform. There aren't many OGB games I'd call absolutely essential, but the best easily compete with their console contemporaries (which they kinda have to in my case, since I'm mostly Super GameBoy these days ). In terms of finesse Bionic Commando's grappling engine thoroughly surpasses the classic FC game's, though the latter still holds its own with higher-velocity movement and much bigger firefights.

I wish there was a similarly easy solution for playing Game Gear stuff on a console. Been eyeing the GG Shinobis and Alestes. I find something especially endearing about the most accomplished of handheld action games from that time... often today's indie devs will mimic oldschool tech limitations, and I know it can be a legitimate stylistic choice - limitations can be healthy. (something I've found with LP vs CD running times, incidentally). But back then, that brutal wall was the real thing. No refuge!

[Shoryukev]

I'm surprised a solution hasn't surfaced for playing Game Gear games on the Master System. From what I understand the GG is basically a modded SMS with a larger color pallet and a smaller resolution.....you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something that works. Maybe it just doesn't have as big of a projected market for someone like Tim Worthington to feel like they want to dump time into developing it.

I've seen a few TV-output mods, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. Been brainstorming a design for 3D printing a new case/shell and making it a fully consolized Game Gear with a controller port and everything.....might be kinda cool!

I'll have to check out the GB Bionic Commando, I rather enjoy the NES version. Gameboy can be fun to collect for since it isn't as expensive as some other systems. I agree there aren't a ton of "must-have" original GB titles, but the few that are out there are great!

[CIT]

Gameboy can be fun to collect for since it isn't as expensive as some other systems.

I guess you haven't been checking Game Boy prices lately.

Especially if you're going for CIB (which I consider the only worthwhile collecting, cuz otherwise you might as well just get a flashcart and be done with it), Game Boy is slim pickings. Seems like most kids never held on to the packaging.

[Shoryukev]

I haven't been too up on the market for GB, but then again I usually just go for the carts themselves anyways. While I certainly would like to have the boxes, I generally stay away from cardboard game packaging since it's hard to store without getting damaged...especially now that I've got kids LOL. If even original Gameboy games have gone up in value I find that to be depressing......the window of retro games that aren't bloated in price is getting smaller and smaller. Hopefully I'm not kicking myself right now for not already owning Metroid II

I've been entertaining the idea of getting cassette tape cases and printing artwork for all my handheld games, but I also agree that the appeal of a flashcart is pretty good when you're talking about handhelds. Going on a business trip/vacation/whatever and being able to take a large number of games without all the clutter sounds like the way to go!

Spoiler

We were all dummies when we were younger! I know I certainly was, I have tons of games from my childhood (even some with clam-shell cases) where I threw away the boxes. I remember being about 9-10 and arguing with my mom when we were packing into boxes getting ready to move. "Why do you need the box? Just keep the game and throw everything else away!" Dang-it mom......LOL