Idea for something that could make CRTs truly obsolete

[kamiboy]

I recommend that you add "Pie in the sky 101" to your engineering curriculum. I have a feeling that it will come in very handy with bringing these project to fruition.

[vol.2]

The only good things about CRTs, in comparison to alternate technologies, are that it's relatively resolution agnostic (not framerate agnostic; phosphor decay times seem to limit how even performance is at extreme framerates - and also in traditional CRTs, going even to 31KHz requires boosting voltages, and 4K resolution is probably completely impractical) and a built-in anti-blur method - which personally I think should be an optional feature, as it triggers headaches in some people.

Unseen mentions most of the OLED issue, but there's a bit more to it: Driving OLEDs at high brightness without wearing them out has been a long-standing problem, and what I read cites electron mobility and attack of materials by free radicals as the major causes. So if you are having to drive OLEDs much brighter than they are now, you will have to look at materials breakdown and you will have to look at external quantum efficiency. I don't know what exact relationships hold between voltage and lifespan, or continuous stimulation vs. flashes and lifespan, but it seems that short flashes require far higher currents, leading to more heat generation, and more free radicals. I don't think switching off the OLED goes far to make up this problem.

The main meta point I'd like to make is that retrogaming devices and even the basic classic TV formats weren't designed with forward compatbility in mind - planned obsolescence from the start! If we get improvements in technology that will make this happen, people will no doubt work to apply them to the problem and we need people to continue to advocate for this. But be cautious of saying to yourself "I want to make a CRT replacement, so I will learn about television technology (or circuit design, etc.)." It's like saying "I love video games so I will learn programming." Most people only have success going forward if they really are passionate about the discipline and the journey that will ultimately lead to something, and if you don't find that discipline rewarding you won't stick with it. Thankfully there are a lot of things involved in display design, including the consumer feedback like I mentioned.

Yup. This is important. Make sure you love the thing you do or you won't get there.

That being said, I would also say that capacitors behind the OLEDs to control persistence and/or emulate decay is probably a bad idea because you won't have enough control over the duration and nature of persistence. It will take a brilliant bit of programming to emulate this and it will require granular control over the on/off state of the OLEDs or whatever you use.

Honestly, I think that Plasmas would probably work better for this as they got pretty good and looked closest to a CRT before they stopped making them. I would like somebody to reboot plasma with a targeted emphasis on making them CRT replacements. There are so many things that could be optimized there if the intention was to make it crt-like from the beginning.

Don't get me wrong, OLEDs look *amazing*. I was in the Sony building in Tokyo back when they first released their little 11" TV, and it was the most amazing looking screen I'd ever seen in my life! I wanted one of those little guys ever since, but I never thought "hey, that looks like a CRT." It's a totally different kind of look, for a different kind of content in a different world.

[Royal]

I recommend that you add "Pie in the sky 101" to your engineering curriculum. I have a feeling that it will come in very handy with bringing these project to fruition.

I don't see why. It's not like I'm talking about technology only envisioned in theory; it already exists and has been used in consumer products for years now. All there needs to be done is adapt it for a specific use, which the companies involved won't or haven't done because the demographic for that specific use isn't big enough to justify the investment.

I'll say it again: There is no consumer CRT in existence that offers analog 480i and 480p with zero digital conversion/deinterlacing for both resolutions at the same time. Zero. Standard crts (even with component inputs) are limited to 480i, and hd crts upscale and adds lag to both inputs. HDTVs will do the same to both inputs, and even the best upscaler cannot display 480p pixel perfectly on 1080p or even 4k tvs without black bars or cropping. Something like a PVM 20L5 is ideal, but good look not finding it for hundreds of dollars.

And both consumer and professional crts won't last forever, so there's that as well.

[RGB32E]

The Sony OLED PVM and BVMs already provide a rolling refresh that is similar to a CRT. Just save your pennies and purchase a Sony PVMA250!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTfvwOGu4EI

[Guspaz]

Plasma is dead and gone. Nobody is going to make them anymore. Ditto with CRTs, they're gone forever. The best you're likely to get, realistically, is a low-latency scaler that simulates visually how a CRT draws feeding a high resolution high framerate OLED panel. That's not going to simulate a CRT raster (so no lightguns) because that's probably not possible without a custom panel, which will also probably never happen. I'm not talking about a rolling refresh here: that's part of it, but to simulate a CRT raster well enough to work with lightguns, from the 16-bit era and later, you need to simulate the beam spot being brighter than the rest of the screen.

In other words, you want to make this dream a reality, focus on creating your own scaler. It's the closest you're going to get.

Scanning laser projectors are something that is at least conceivable to do as a hobbyist, but would still be extraordinarily hard, and the technique has been abandoned. Modern laser projectors, from Epson's consumer units to IMAX's new laser projectors, all simply use lasers as a light source for a traditional DLP or 3LCD engine. In Epson's case, they shoot a UV laser at a spinning phosphor wheel (spinning to keep the laser from staying on one spot) to produce a point light source, which is fed into a relatively traditional 3LCD setup. In IMAX's case, they're using RGB lasers, but then diffusing them on to regular DLP chips.

[atheistgod1999]

I never heard of Laser Projection until Royal mentioned it. That gave me an idea: why not just have a regular CRT, but with a laser in place of the electron gun and magnets?

[kamiboy]

I recommend that you add "Pie in the sky 101" to your engineering curriculum. I have a feeling that it will come in very handy with bringing these project to fruition.

I don't see why. It's not like I'm talking about technology only envisioned in theory; it already exists and has been used in consumer products for years now. All there needs to be done is adapt it for a specific use, which the companies involved won't or haven't done because the demographic for that specific use isn't big enough to justify the investment.

I'll say it again: There is no consumer CRT in existence that offers analog 480i and 480p with zero digital conversion/deinterlacing for both resolutions at the same time. Zero. Standard crts (even with component inputs) are limited to 480i, and hd crts upscale and adds lag to both inputs. HDTVs will do the same to both inputs, and even the best upscaler cannot display 480p pixel perfectly on 1080p or even 4k tvs without black bars or cropping. Something like a PVM 20L5 is ideal, but good look not finding it for hundreds of dollars.

And both consumer and professional crts won't last forever, so there's that as well.

Proof is in the pudding. I might not know much about electronic engineering but from following the few, and comparatively simple gaming hardware hobbyist projects here and there I know that, as the saying goes, shit is hard.

By all means, try to build that pie, in the sky even, and see for yourself. Meanwhile I own enough CRT's and can easily aquire more in the foreseeable future to last me at least the next 30 years. At that point I fully expect that my focus will have shifted from ancient gaming to yearning for lady death's cold sweet embrace.

[Guspaz]

I never heard of Laser Projection until Royal mentioned it. That gave me an idea: why not just have a regular CRT, but with a laser in place of the electron gun and magnets?

Because it is currently impossible to build new CRTs.

[Royal]

I never heard of Laser Projection until Royal mentioned it. That gave me an idea: why not just have a regular CRT, but with a laser in place of the electron gun and magnets?

Sort of, but the ideal product (a crt replacement) would have an ultraviolet laser striking color phosphors to create the colors/acceptable amount of persistence and a scanning method that not only scans 480 lines interlaced and progressive, but also simulates the path of the electron after being deflected by the yoke on a convex curved screen. A flat screen for anything using a beam just isn't going to work due to the longer time it takes the beam to hit anywhere other than the dead center of the screen (for reference, my flat Sony Trinitron distorts in an area slightly left of center, and it's noticeable during side-scrolling games and all black loading screens).

That's why I said voltage may be needed to steer the laser (https://www.vescent.com/wp-content/uplo ... wsroom.pdf). It's proven possible, but the only existing product I know that does this is no longer being sold (http://www.vescent.com/manuals/doku.php ... ide:manual).

So it's not that simple to just replace the electron gun with a laser, but provided all things go well, the end result is a CRT replacement that is bulky, but significantly lighter than an actual CRT (compare an entire, thick glass bulb to mostly empty space).

[atheistgod1999]

simulates the path of the electron after being deflected by the yoke on a convex curved screen. A flat screen for anything using a beam just isn't going to work due to the longer time it takes the beam to hit anywhere other than the dead center of the screen

That's just called s-correction on CRTs; that should be easy to replicate. Can I get other opinions on my new idea?

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, I've seen some hobbyist reports on using small consumer scanning lasers to build just this type of low-res TV-in-a-box. It was an interesting experiment but the users didn't seem happy enough with the quality to use it for much serious gaming.

It's also well worth stating that all the discussion was carried on with strong reminders about the dangers of lasers. If the laser brightness limiting fails you could suffer permanent eye damage, so the story goes.

As for laser TVs that were in production, they reportedly suffered from notable rainbow shimmering effects.

I didn't know about the steerable lasers; I thought the only solutions were spinning prisms and micromirrors, both of which have to be designed for a specific resolution (or at best "resolutions," but not really arbitrary ones). That's good to know. Vescent sold their "liquid crystal waveguide" tech to Analog, Inc., so maybe Analog is continuing development.

[atheistgod1999]

Yeah, I've seen some hobbyist reports on using small consumer scanning lasers to build just this type of low-res TV-in-a-box. It was an interesting experiment but the users didn't seem happy enough with the quality to use it for much serious gaming.

CRTs weren't great when they were first invented, either. If people worked on improving what we have, laser displays could eventually be better than PVMs.

[Ed Oscuro]

Better in what way? There's an old engineering saying - "price, quality, reliability - pick any two."

Of course there is still a lot of interest in lasers for holography, commercial signage, projection, etc. so that might get us there. But I don't think that it necessarily is the best way forward for retrogaming.

[vol.2]

Better in what way? There's an old engineering saying - "price, quality, reliability - pick any two."

Of course there is still a lot of interest in lasers for holography, commercial signage, projection, etc. so that might get us there. But I don't think that it necessarily is the best way forward for retrogaming.

I think that crts will be fully virtualized in the not-too-distant future.

I work in virtual reality, mostly with audio, but we have a bunch of prototype stuff that we use for development around the lab, and I thought the Microsoft hololens had a pretty convincing virtual tv screen. Factoring in what I know about Magic Leap, and people who I know that have tried it, I believe that people will just have projection glasses. Less than 10 years.

[nissling]

Imho, the 55EG910V even made my BVM obsolete. I see no reason why to prefer a CRT nowadays. With that said, I still enjoy having my BVM in my bedroom along with a couple of game consoles of course just for the sake of it.

[Guspaz]

Imho, the 55EG910V even made my BVM obsolete. I see no reason why to prefer a CRT nowadays. With that said, I still enjoy having my BVM in my bedroom along with a couple of game consoles of course just for the sake of it.

Well, assuming it's the same as the 920V, the mediocre input lag on that TV (50ms, or 3 frames) is one reason to prefer a CRT... It's not terrible, but it's not all that great.

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, we'll need gaming-class 8k scanning/strobing OLED's to truly move beyond the need for CRT's for old games. 8k giving plenty of resolution to simulate shadow mask or aperture grille.

[nissling]

Well, assuming it's the same as the 920V, the mediocre input lag on that TV (50ms, or 3 frames) is one reason to prefer a CRT... It's not terrible, but it's not all that great.

I have still to notice any latency whatsoever on my 910V, regardless of using a game console (with or without the XRGB-Mini) or my gaming PC.

[andykara2003]

It depends on your personal taste and opinion as well. For me, I don't use my BVM & am not interested in the XRGBs - I'd prefer to wait for true phosphor emulation for 15Khz. I much prefer a (good) low use 15khz consumer CRT for 240p and a higher end 31khz CRT for 480p. I only use my 31khz CRTs (NEC & Metz) for Gamecube (& a couple of Wii games) and for me, a shadow mask is essential for GC/Wii, making them look gorgeous.

Just a personal preference, but to me, due to their shadow mask, the way these sets resolve the GC's image gives the graphics a lovely texture and 'depth' compared to a flat panel. Also the jaggies are kept minimal without losing clarity. The GC's new HDMI mod is a good example - great, clean punchy visuals, but looks too 'jaggy' and aliased IMO.

In the future if they can produce a panel with a really bright image and deep blacks (QLED?) to compensate for the dulling effect of shadow mask/aperture grille emulation, I'd like to see a 4k-8K upscaler (preferably 8K) with a variety of shadow mask/aperture grille options to mimic various screen types for both 15khz & 31khz - i.e. dot triad, slot aperture, consumer aperture grille, 5-600 line PVM, BVM, shadow mask pro monitor (e.g. Ikegami), presentation monitor (PGM/XM29), various arcade monitor styles etc. etc. I'm no expert but I guess the upscaler would need quite a good processor to do that & wouldn't be possible for a while (at least for a reasonable price). I somehow doubt it'll ever happen anyway..