Prelude to the Apocalypse

[atheistgod1999]

I wonder if something like the French Revolution will happen in my country in a few years. The conditions seem similar, minus the food shortages. I just hope the Great Terror doesn't happen.

[Durandal]

Mischief Maker, you said before you were a mediator. Is it better to let your frustration out all at once, or to keep it bottled in until a compromise has been reached despite the mood it might create? The way I see it is that the seeds of discontent against the elite have been sown, and things aren't going to go back to 'normal' regardless of who wins. A Clinton presidency might prove to be a more stable choice for the government, but it won't do much to restore the trust of the people in the government. Whereas a Trump presidency provides no guaranteed stability other than a vague promise of not going to war with Russia, but at least everyone might regret voting for him depending on how hard he fucks up and not vote for someone like that next time (until 8 years later).

What's the best choice of action here to both get everyone to calm the fuck down and have some kind of faith in eachother again?

Holy shit:

Sometimes I wish I wasn't constantly seeing the world from a horror perspective, but at least reality is accommodating itself to mine

[Giest118]

Okay everyone. This poll will close mid-tuesday. Remember you can change your vote if you've realized the error of your ways. You're allowed to change your mind here.

I actually can't fucking believe this, but I changed my vote.

I was thinking a few months ago: "For me to believe Hillary is the greater evil, she would need to reveal herself to be literally zombie-Hitler-Stalin-Satan".
And then a bunch of evidence happened that shows she's zombie-Hitler-Stalin-Satan.

To be clear though, Trump still sucks shit.

Fuck this election.

[BryanM]

I actually can't fucking believe this, but I changed my vote.

Heh, it was funny watching you shift over time. It's not just you, everyone goes through the Hillary cycle: "She's not that bad! I'm fine with this!" and then the election starts and it's like "oh yeah... she's fucking terrible. :("

Thus her sagging poll numbers. It's not Comey being sassy the week before the election. It's people weighing the culmination of Hillary's entire career. If she's against the economic progressives (egalitarians) and the social conservatives, who exactly is she supposed to appeal to?

http://i.imgur.com/jW4ofBY.jpg

This is quite excellent. This election season is definitely a horror game.

(As an aside, politics really isn't boring, neoliberals just engineer it that way to make less people vote. Shin Megami Tensei is basically politics: the jRPG. I do wish they'd make one where you get to actually play the game AFTER everything goes upside down and all your wishes come true.)

[Durandal]

I actually can't fucking believe this, but I changed my vote.

Heh, it was funny watching you shift over time. It's not just you, everyone goes through the Hillary cycle: "She's not that bad! I'm fine with this!" and then the election starts and it's like "oh yeah... she's fucking terrible. "

The most interesting part of this election to me is not the future of the USA, but rather how it changes people. It's like we're finally seeing some character development after several boring episodes of repetitive fights with a blatant overuse of stock footage. People may not develop in an ideal direction, but it's something different for a change.

[BryanM]

Yeah yeah yeah, tell me about it man. It's like watching a frozen Ronald Reagan glacier for 32 years, and then seeing it start to melt slightly.

Can't wait for the skubwars to end.

[Giest118]

It's not even so much that I've changed.

I observed a long time ago that republican politicians and pundits are authoritarians and liars. So when they started talking shit about Hillary, I assumed it was bullshit. But then a bunch of non-Republicans started talking shit about Hillary, and I started to question my evaluation.

So I said: "Okay. I'll assume that exactly one third of the bad shit I hear about Hillary could conceivably be true and grounded in hard fact. To account for the republican tendency to make shit up and lie."

She had a two-thirds competitive advantage and still managed to catch up to Trump on the shitty garbage scale.

How do you even do that.

So from this I have determined the following:
* Republicans lie about what Democrats want to do.
* Democrats also lie about what Democrats want to do.
* They both tell the truth about what Republicans want to do, which is be dicks.

Thus creating a mask through which Democrats are allowed to be... whatever they want, because nobody really has a handle on what their identity is. But apparently their identity is to also be dicks.

[BryanM]

The republicans do intentionally help democrats by crying wolf all the time, so legitimate criticisms get lost in all of the crazy BENGHAZIIIIIIIII bullshit. You have to be really plugged into politics to know there's real stuff buried under this protective barrier.

It's very, very hard to dismiss Hillary Clinton bragging about vacationing with war criminal Henry Kissinger on national TV, however.

But apparently their identity is to also be dicks.

It's to be dicks who pretend to care about 3rd worlders and people who work at Wal-Mart.

As I've said before, it's all pillow talk to give the peasants the illusion of choice. The long-term capitalists who want themselves and their looting to be unseen and unnoticed. Greed tempered by patience and an IQ over 40.

Trump isn't Hitler, he's Hoover combined with W. (I'd hope. Maybe that should be the new poll - Will there be mexican death camps?)

[Mischief Maker]

I was thinking a few months ago: "For me to believe Hillary is the greater evil, she would need to reveal herself to be literally zombie-Hitler-Stalin-Satan".
And then a bunch of evidence happened that shows she's zombie-Hitler-Stalin-Satan.

Really? She's the greater evil now?

Do you think she'll pull the US out of the Paris Climate Accords and cancel all of Obama's carbon-control executive orders, as Trump has promised?

Do you think she'll eliminate the EPA, Department of Education, and the FDA (the fucking food we eat!), as Trump has promised?

Do you think her litmus test for Supreme Court justices will be if they would overturn Roe v. Wade, as Trump has promised?

Do you think she'll re-legitimize white nationalism and get the full-throated endorsement of the KKK, as Trump has?

Worst case scenario for Clinton, she might turn out to be everything Trump promises he'll be.

The double standard applied to these candidates is maddening.

[Giest118]

Really? She's the greater evil now?

Do you think she'll pull the US out of the Paris Climate Accords and cancel all of Obama's carbon-control executive orders, as Trump has promised?

Do you think she'll eliminate the EPA, Department of Education, and the FDA (the fucking food we eat!), as Trump has promised?

Do you think her litmus test for Supreme Court justices will be if they would overturn Roe v. Wade, as Trump has promised?

Do you think she'll re-legitimize white nationalism and get the full-throated endorsement of the KKK, as Trump has?

Worst case scenario for Clinton, she might turn out to be everything Trump promises he'll be.

The double standard applied to these candidates is maddening.

Neither of us has any god damn idea what either candidate will actually do, and you know it.

[BulletMagnet]

Neither of us has any god damn idea what either candidate will actually do, and you know it.

Then why are any of us even bothering to talk about any of this, when we could just flip a coin and be done with it?

Once again, we haven't learned a damn thing from Election 2000.

[Giest118]

Then why are any of us even bothering to talk about any of this, when we could just flip a coin and be done with it?

That is a very interesting question.

[brokenhalo]

Then why are any of us even bothering to talk about any of this, when we could just flip a coin and be done with it?

That is a very interesting question.

I don't think it would work. The coin would scream out "fuck this gay earth!" and fly straight out of the atmosphere, on a collision course to the sun.

[BryanM]

Really? She's the greater evil now?

Yes, we've already talked about how dying of cancer is worse than dying by lighting yourself on fire.

It's okay to have a different opinion. We're split right down the middle here. In the short term of course you're right. In the long term, perhaps not.

The republican that'd defeat Hillary in 2020 is no better than Trump is.

I even have a preemptive spoiler on that for you: You know how this is a WWF event? Guess what's coming: REMATCH.

As long as he wants it, Trump will be the nominee again and again. Think about it: They can have this guy be the republican scarecrow every single time. And then run any craven monster they want against him, because you'll still be scared and grant your consent. Because you're scared of Trump. Forever. And ever. And ever. And ever.

Once again, we haven't learned a damn thing from Election 2000.

Of course we did. If you play the lesser evil game, or the "defense" game as they also call it, you lose to republicans. Then you can vote in a black guy who doesn't go to war with Iran eight years later. Then you put up an 80's republican no one likes to lose even harder because demographic shifts gave too much of an advantage to the democrats, you've gotta offset that shit to keep them in the game. Then everybody dies because Orange Hitler.

Blame everyone but Hillary Clinton and the democrats for them intentionally trying to lose. Keep blaming the powerless - it's the centrist thing to do.

Agent Orange will save us.

[ED-057]

next poll: As his first step in Making America Great Again(TM), President Trump will rebrand what with his own prestigous name?

1) The F-35 will be known as the F-Trump (not to be confused with F-Troop)
2) The Whitehouse will be known as the Trump House (not to be confused with the Ronald McDonald House)
3) The Washington Monument will be known as Trump Tower (not to be confused with the other Trump Tower)

[quash]

Then why are any of us even bothering to talk about any of this, when we could just flip a coin and be done with it?

When I told you the way the coin was going to land, you stuck your fingers in your ears and said "la la la I'm not listening".

Which is why I decided "fuck it" and threw all the coins in my possession in the air.

https://youtu.be/KEHXMTlIJwM

[Specineff]

next poll: As his first step in Making America Great Again(TM), President Trump will rebrand what with his own prestigous name?

1) The F-35 will be known as the F-Trump (not to be confused with F-Troop)
2) The Whitehouse will be known as the Trump House (not to be confused with the Ronald McDonald House)
3) The Washington Monument will be known as Trump Tower (not to be confused with the other Trump Tower)

I wonder if he'll make it so that "Wetback" will now be used to describe slovenian models:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /93321114/

So glad to know that she'll be able to understand all those illegal lettuce pickers and construction workers; just like them, she followed her dream to a place where freedom and opportunity were in abundance, crossed a body of water, and obtained employment illegally. "Melania La Mojada" has a nice ring to it.

[Durandal]

next poll: As his first step in Making America Great Again(TM), President Trump will rebrand what with his own prestigous name?

1) The F-35 will be known as the F-Trump (not to be confused with F-Troop)
2) The Whitehouse will be known as the Trump House (not to be confused with the Ronald McDonald House)
3) The Washington Monument will be known as Trump Tower (not to be confused with the other Trump Tower)

I wonder if he'll make it so that "Wetback" will now be used to describe slovenian models:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /93321114/

So glad to know that she'll be able to understand all those illegal lettuce pickers and construction workers; just like them, she followed her dream to a place where freedom and opportunity were in abundance, crossed a body of water, and obtained employment illegally. "First Lady Mojada" has a nice ring to it.

Eh? Slovenians are mountain slavs, not wetbacks.

Once again, we haven't learned a damn thing from Election 2000.

Get used to it, every eight-twelve years the USA'll be electing whatever overpromising populist candidate after a bunch of terms by bankers not doing much to really improve things, until the cycle has been broken and the USA is no longer in a state of purgatory.

[Opus131]

Do you think she'll pull the US out of the Paris Climate Accords and cancel all of Obama's carbon-control executive orders, as Trump has promised?

Do you think she'll eliminate the EPA, Department of Education, and the FDA (the fucking food we eat!), as Trump has promised?

Do you think her litmus test for Supreme Court justices will be if they would overturn Roe v. Wade, as Trump has promised?

Do you think she'll re-legitimize white nationalism and get the full-throated endorsement of the KKK, as Trump has?

I don't see how any of those things are supposed to be bad. Especially the white nationalism part. Indeed, i think Trump is going to make white people great again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-Z5sRwgLM

BTW, you left out the part where we are all going to serve Putin!

[Opus131]

Lol is this for real?

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/com ... w_sanders/

This frikkin' election, i swear.

For the record, i don't really think Sanders was a plant, but this explains why he sold out in the end.

[BulletMagnet]

Get used to it, every eight-twelve years the USA'll be electing whatever overpromising populist candidate after a bunch of terms by bankers not doing much to really improve things, until the cycle has been broken and the USA is no longer in a state of purgatory.

It would make more sense if the "populist" or "maverick" or "down-home" candidate (as labeled by the plutocrat media) wasn't always the one lavishing even more tax breaks and favors onto the bankers et al. Whoever is granted that coveted designation will always outdo the "establishment" candidate when it comes to coddling the establishment. At least if you go by what they actually say and do as opposed to what their established storyline says they MUST ACTUALLY be doing, and everyone who says otherwise is just too silly to notice.

Once again, to the "anti-establishment" voters out there, hopefully you've kept that beer from 2000 nice and cold!

[quash]

Aren't you just the cutest. Careful though, the rock under that high ground is crumbling.

[Durandal]

Get used to it, every eight-twelve years the USA'll be electing whatever overpromising populist candidate after a bunch of terms by bankers not doing much to really improve things, until the cycle has been broken and the USA is no longer in a state of purgatory.

It would make more sense if the "populist" or "maverick" or "down-home" candidate (as labeled by the plutocrat media) wasn't always the one lavishing even more tax breaks and favors onto the bankers et al. Whoever is granted that coveted designation will always outdo the "establishment" candidate when it comes to coddling the establishment. At least if you go by what they actually say and do as opposed to what their established storyline says they MUST ACTUALLY be doing, and everyone who says otherwise is just too silly to notice.

Once again, to the "anti-establishment" voters out there, hopefully you've kept those beers from 2000 and 2008 nice and cold!

I thought Trump's agenda is ultimately a self-serving one for the sake of the Trump Organization, what with Wall Street stressing out over the possibility of a Trump victory coming closer and almost all businessmen having no idea what Trump what will do in office, let alone trust him. Maybe he's secretly a friend of the elite and the media has successfully tricked us into thinking he's just a moronic third party disrupting the existing power structure just by being there, who knows. In a way he's still messing with the (existing) 1% and that's what all his voters want to see, even if he ends up becoming the second 1% (the 2%?).

[Opus131]

The rich don't care about taxes because they can find ways to evade paying them, including migrating their business off shore, which is what Trump is trying to address with his tax cut (as part of his "America first" platform). The rationale behind his tax cut plans is precisely that of convincing multinational corporations that investing in the USA would be in their best interest. You can argue whether this would be the case but that's the underlying idea. If Trump was truly secretly in bed with the establishment they wouldn't have tried to destroy him in every way possible. In truth, the establishment doesn't care about those tax brakes because as i said they have ways to avoid paying them and everything else Trump is pushing is against their interest which is why they hate his guts.

If you really want to find a "selfish" motive in his reforms you can say he wants to help himself once he becomes president, but this still implies he doesn't care about the establishment and his campaign has been extremely damaging for them even if one were to assume it was all a charade (I.E., if Trump is a plant of the establishment it has backfired on them spectacularly). Besides, on some level you really have to admire his guts if that's what he is trying to do. If Trump loses the election he pretty much lost everything. That's a pretty big gamble to take regardless of his motives.

[Mischief Maker]

Mischief Maker, you said before you were a mediator. Is it better to let your frustration out all at once, or to keep it bottled in until a compromise has been reached despite the mood it might create?

You know, that's a very interesting analogy that I hadn't thought of before. In fact I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it on my own sooner!

Well lets start this mediation analysis by identifying the players. The defendant is Clinton with the DNC, the plaintiff is the Bernie or Bust crowd, and the mediator is The Media. The power dynamic is heavily shifted in the DNC's favor, but the Bernie or Bust crowd's one ace in the hole is its ability to pursue a lawsuit that would spell mutual ruin for both sides (third party protest voting). The Media has fucked up and this mediation is now almost completely off the rails.

First, the mediator tipped its hand during the primary that it's totally in favor of Clinton, ruining the trust dynamic with BorB. This is a major source of the negotiation-disrupting frustration you speak about. Given that bowing out and recommending another mediator isn't an option, I would say The Media needs, at the very least, to openly admit its error and attempt to rebuild trust from there. I guess you could say CNN firing Donna Brazile was the first step in that apology but unless CNN articulates what it means by that action it won't have the intended effect.

Second, the DNC made the Obama-blunder by offering substance appeals to solve a process problem. They wrote a progressive agenda yet the main problem expressed by the BorB crowd is they don't feel like they have a say. Offering Jill Stein's platform wouldn't fix this dynamic. Clinton needs to show a willingness to engage in an ongoing dialogue with BorB and one way she could have done that would be by picking Elizabeth Warren as her running mate.

Finally, and I am guilty of this myself, The Media has forced BorB into a corner by limiting the options to "vote or perish." That's a huge no-no for mediation, you always want to be EXPANDING the options, not limiting them. Bill Clinton made that blunder in the 2000 Camp David peace negotiations between Israel and Palestine when he lost patience with Arafat and exploded at him that if he didn't accept a compromise Clinton put together that peace between the two sides would collapse. Arafat replied, "Do you want to come to my funeral?" When a frustrated party in a dispute thinks their only options are surrender or nuke, they're gonna nuke. One phrase I've heard often from BorB people is that the protest vote is "all they have left."

So the question now becomes, how to expand the options for BorB?

As long as he wants it, Trump will be the nominee again and again. Think about it: They can have this guy be the republican scarecrow every single time. And then run any craven monster they want against him, because you'll still be scared and grant your consent. Because you're scared of Trump. Forever. And ever. And ever. And ever.

So this is the corner BorB finds itself backed into. In 2000 Nader ran as a third party spoiler against Al Gore and arguably tilted the election in favor of a monster. Right-Wing Democrats have coasted on that dynamic for 16 years as Republicans have dutifully run with monster after monster. The implicit message: "Where else you gonna go? If you vote third party again you're once again enabling your own ruin!"

If I were a mediator in this case I would zero in on the oft-repeated back and forth of, "You betrayed Bernie Sanders in the primary!" versus "Bernie Sanders is backing us now!" I would suggest we find this Bernie Sanders person and bring him to the discussion, at least in an informational capacity, because there must be a reason he's backing the people who betrayed him and his reasoning might expand the options.

Now my own interpretation of Senator Sanders' thinking is that he found a way around this dynamic BryanM described. You can't challenge neoliberal Democrats in the general election without giving the reigns to a monster but you can primary them to threaten their jobs if they betray their progressive base without opening the doors to another monster. Zephyr Teachout is one example of a member of Bernie's Revolution, ousting an incumbent Democrat in the primary with a campaign fueled by a collection of small donations. This is the principal that Our Revolution is built around, this is the club Sanders plans to hold over Clinton and the DNC's heads post-election to get progressive legislation passed. This is the other option, and in my opinion as someone who already saw the protest vote option fail spectacularly in 2000, I would say it's the superior option.

So to bring it all back to your original question, I don't believe in venting. Frustration is an expression of perceived powerlessness and to me the solution is to empower BorB with knowledge that they do have power in the form of alternative options like Bernie's Revolution. The Media's failure to properly communicate these options to the BorB voters is a terrible blunder as a mediator.

[Bitter Almonds]

Just remember, kids, $hillary is just as horrible as chump. She will do nothing of what Bernie Sanders suggests. Can't tell the difference between either pig.

#AnimalFarm

[Rob]

Indeed, i think Trump is going to make white people great again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-Z5sRwgLM

"Yeah, but things shouldn't be just said off the top of your head. I mean you ought to do a little thinking."

You don't see how the elimination of the EPA and FDA would be a bad thing. Whatever is supposed to be impressive about the white brain isn't in him or you, it seems.

[Specineff]

Eh? Slovenians are mountain slavs, not wetbacks.

She crossed a body of water and got illegally employed, this makes her a wetback.

[Durandal]

Interesting read, more than often it does appear like there's only two options to a problem (no thanks to the media and the two-party system of the USA) which seemingly narrows down the possibilities and people's minds.
Most people don't seem to be aware that the ruling body can indeed be influenced after an election what with presidential elections being treated as the be-all and end-all for the future of the USA.
Thanks, I'll keep this in mind.

[BryanM]

you can primary them to threaten their jobs if they betray their progressive base without opening the doors to another monster. Zephyr Teachout is one example of a member of Bernie's Revolution, ousting an incumbent Democrat in the primary with a campaign fueled by a collection of small donations.

We've been trying this for decades now. There's an enormous series of problems with it, and massively underwhelming results.

It would have been great if Zephyr's odds wasn't a dumb coin flip thanks to the democrats intentionally suppressing turnout to help Trump, though.