Sony WEGA CRT ghosting/shadowing AND weird scaling issue?

[dogman91]

I've had this issue with my KV-36FV300 for quite awhile now... the sides of images on the screen have a transparent shadow effect to them, AND the pixels are slightly distorted as if it were badly scaled. Seems like two separate issues.

It doesn't seem to matter what connection I use. Turning any kind of sharpness completely off in the service menu and the main menu doesn't do a thing - increasing sharpness can help in hiding the shadowing lines, but not the pixel-scaling issue.

Where sprites are supposed to be symmetrical for instance, one side would have slightly larger pixels than the other. This is especially annoying with text on the screen.
Look at Mario's eyes in this picture for the scaling(?) problem, and the sides of the green hills for the shadowing problem (there's probably a better picture I can take for that issue in particular):

Spoiler

It's a lot more pronounced in person than in the picture. This picture is also with sharpness settings on the TV all to 0.

Any ideas how to fix this in the service menu? If not, would picking up a different CRT/monitor make a difference (or is this a problem everyone has)?

[BazookaBen]

I think you're being a little OCD about this. The picture looks fine to me. Keep in mind, they don't make CRT's anymore, so we can't expect our sets to be perfect indefinitely into the future.

The shadows you're talking about are what is known as ringing. That can be caused by a low quality cable, though there are other people on this forum that know more about this than me.

And your TV isn't doing any scaling, it has no scaler chip, it is displaying exactly what the SNES sends at near the speed of light. So, what's going on with Mario's eye there is probably due to a slight focus or convergence issue. That can be fixed in the service menu, though you have to be careful because it's easier to make things worse than better. Definitely use the 240p Test Suite when adjusting convergence.

[bobrocks95]

As BazookaBen said use the 240p test suite and put up the convergence/geometry pattern, the problem is likely there.

Also on my FV310 the correct sharpness setting isn't 0, but it depends on the SUBS setting (or whatever it's called)- setting it too low looks about as bad as setting it too high on my set. There's also a sharpness pattern on the 240p test suite to fix this.

[FinalBaton]

dogman91, what do you use for a cable : a SCART-to-component box? Your picture looks quite good.

I also have ringing on my KV-36FV300, looks like I should adjust the convergence as well. I'll try to pick up a flash cart and install the 240p suite on it.

[dogman91]

Weird thing is it doesn't seem to matter what cable/console I use: the same issues are there with the ringing and the pixel distortion. I think the cables are pretty high quality (they're very well-shielded RGB cables to a Kramer SCART-to-component transcoder). Using a different RGB box and also consoles with only component video have all the same symptoms, which make me conclude it's definitely a problem with the TV.

I read somewhere you can adjust convergence with DCONV in the service menu; unfortunately though it's not in the FV300. Any other ideas what settings can help with this?

I have the 240p test suite; just not sure exactly what to adjust to fix these problems.

Here's another example image with the Lost Vikings, the same problem this time on the Genesis instead of SNES - weirdly enough, it only affects one of the same flipped sprite image consistently and it doesn't matter where it is on the screen (so I'm not sure geometry settings can exactly help with that...?):

Spoiler

and @bobrocks95 I think the setting you're thinking of is SSHP; I usually have it set to around 9-10. The main menu sharpness setting I have is 0.

[BazookaBen]

well the electron beam sweeps left to right, so that's why the pupil on the viking is weaker when the white of his eye is on the left. More intense color doesn't fall off as quick

[dogman91]

well the electron beam sweeps left to right, so that's why the pupil on the viking is weaker when the white of his eye is on the left. More intense color doesn't fall off as quick

That makes a lot of sense actually; I'm glad I can at least determine what's going on. What settings should I adjust that directly deals with this, you think?

For convergence/focus though, it looks like I have to open up the CRT which I definitely don't want to attempt.

[BazookaBen]

That makes a lot of sense actually; I'm glad I can at least determine what's going on. What settings should I adjust that directly deals with this, you think?

For convergence/focus though, it looks like I have to open up the CRT which I definitely don't want to attempt.

Most sony sets have some convergence stuff in service mode. Try to find a service manual for your TV or ones released around the same time. They usually have some instructions for adjusting convergence. http://elektrotanya.com/ is a good source

Beyond that, you'll have to hope somebody around here more knowledgeable chimes in. Also, try searching older threads about CRT's on AVSForums

[Taiyaki]

I don't think there are any convergence settings available in the service menu for any of the FV sets (I think these are only on the XBR line but maybe on the HS line as well).

I don't have that kind of convergence issue on my sets but I did internal calibration using the accessible convergence knobs and fixing up edges and corners with permalloy strips. To be honest though, looking at those pictures, it doesn't really look like a convergence issue to me.

One thing to keep in mind is that the very edges and corners tend to be a bit less in focus than the center and this is normal behavior on CRT's, has to due with how the beam hits the center of the screen. Are you moving the character to the edges of the screen for these screenshots?

Could you take a full screenshot of the entirety of the picture? To me you seem to have a very nice image based on those screenshots.

[dogman91]

One thing to keep in mind is that the very edges and corners tend to be a bit less in focus than the center and this is normal behavior on CRT's, has to due with how the beam hits the center of the screen. Are you moving the character to the edges of the screen for these screenshots?

Could you take a full screenshot of the entirety of the picture? To me you seem to have a very nice image based on those screenshots.

It's the same no matter where I have the characters on the screen.

I found a control in the service menu that affects the ringing called VSPF (in the manual it describes it as "SHARPNESS Circuit Fo (for Video)"), but changing it only makes the problem worse, not better.

Here's more pictures; notice the ringing around the Yoshi coin - it's a lot more prominent/obvious in-person than in the pictures, keep in mind:

Spoiler

Thanks for all the help so far; still open for suggestions on how to fix these problems before I have to get a new set - I really don't want to as I like everything else about the picture I'm getting though.

[BazookaBen]

From the pictures it seems your picture is great. You're not going to get perfect picture from a consumer set. They stopped making them in 2006 or something. So all of them have thousands of hours on them at this point.

Just tweak yours to the best of your ability and be happy. I mean, doesn't hurt to stay on the lookout, but don't throw it out if you don't have a replacement.

[orange808]

I agree with BazookaBen. It doesn't look bad at all.

FWIW, here's a Trinitron I just picked up for $25 usd off Craigslist. It just sat there in the ads for weeks; so, I finally decided to save it.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Enjoy what you have and keep looking. There are good ones out there and nobody wants/appreciates them.

(Apologies for the dust on the screen, looks like I need to bring it out of the basement and clean it up.)

[Taiyaki]

Ok Dogman I see what you mean now. That does appear to be a video anomaly going on on Mario's eye and it is noticeable even when zooming out to create further distance. Does this happen only on that side or will Mario's eye look the same if he's on the very right of the screen? I've never encountered this so I really can't say. That being said it's as Bazooka says, crt's are never 100% spot on, and this is even true for the BVM and PVM sets too. I can't help but think that that should be fixable though as I don't recall ever seeing this on my FV300's.


When I saw the full size picture of the world map to me the rest of the picture of the set looks really nice. Colors look vibrant (and this is off camera too), sharpness looks good, the normal geometrical imperfections that are to be expected are present (you might even be able to fine tune these if you open the set). Really nice find otherwise.


Just out of curiosity, you have turned off the edge enhancement options (not to "low" but to "off") right?


Orange> Nice find, looks all ready to be played on too.

[dogman91]

Does this happen only on that side or will Mario's eye look the same if he's on the very right of the screen? I've never encountered this so I really can't say. That being said it's as Bazooka says, crt's are never 100% spot on, and this is even true for the BVM and PVM sets too. I can't help but think that that should be fixable though as I don't recall ever seeing this on my FV300's.

...

Just out of curiosity, you have turned off the edge enhancement options (not to "low" but to "off") right?

Mario's eye looks the same no matter where he is on the screen. It's the same with the Lost Vikings example pics I have above too - all over the screen it's consistent. I'm thinking maybe it has to do with how contrasting black and white are in terms of the CRT drawing the image and/or some sharpness thing? Some brightness/contrast setting? I really don't have a clue.

I disabled all post-processing stuff completely (ClearEdge and Dynablack). Maybe there's some kind of hidden service menu thing that's causing this. Changing VSPF to 0 from 3 almost makes it normal but at the expense of the picture looking incredibly awful with intense ringing and general 'squishing', so I have to leave it at '3'. Either a side effect or maybe it could be related to the problem...

I hear what you all are saying about enjoying it as is - I've been ignoring these issues whenever they prominently came up so far (been around four years or so), but I have to say they're very distracting.

@orange: it's looking pretty good! Really nice to be able to compare with the exact same screenshots too, haha.