Questions that do not deserve a thread

[amc3]

Out of curiosity using the composite cable into the Green port on the component jacks with the tv set to component in, do you get any picture at all?

Generally, no.

With the Twin in cartridge mode, the power on, and both the yellow and white video & audio cables connected to the TV, I tried unplugging and replugging just the video cable from the Twin. When the video cable was unplugged, the TV was giving a definitive "no signal". And most of the time, I saw the TV respond the same way it did when I powered up the Twin: seemingly detect a signal, declare it "480i" for a split second, and even produce audio during that split second. But then it would go back to "no signal".

But a couple of times of unplugging and replugging the video cable, the TV actually showed the video signal (and therefore also played audio)! One weird part is that the video was crystal clear but in black and white.

And then if I tried unplugging and replugging the video again, I went back to it usually not working...


Again, though, my main question is about a TV like mine that doesn't seem to support 240p. Does that mean that for an original Fami, I wouldn't be able to make an RF signal work either? Or does a 240p limitation not cover an RF/antenna signal?

[FinalBaton]

Not a question but more of an annoucement :


My dear american friends,

there is currently a 20% off site-wide sale at Monoprice. (I think it lasts until Halloween)
http://www.monoprice.com/pages/site_wid ... 5_sitewide

So if you have bnc/vga cables, rca cables, bnc to RCA connectors, VGA matrixes etc etc to order : now is the time!


They have 15% off site-wide sales every now and then. But 20%? that's the first time I see this.
That's a very nice opportunity to get some cables and stuff.

[FinalBaton]

And for my Canadian fellows :

Prime Cables (canadian seller of Monoprice cables) currently has a 15% off site-wide sale until october 28 at midnight.

They've got great shipping prices so canadians benefit greatly from ordering from them instead of directly from Monoprice. A lot cheaper this way.

[korpse413]

I want to learn more about resolutions and what use(d) them. Of course wikipedia was my first option. The chart immediatly listed is interesting, especially the terms associated to unfamiliar res'. It kind of makes sense to use them, but at the same time you can easily see why they didnt get adopted, confusion can happen quickly. Anyone use these before? Im sure most people here just stick to 4:3 resolutions, but I am curious to learn more. Alot of this research is triggered by being in the market for the OSSC and learni g about scaling and what not

[amc3]

Bump:

Again, though, my main question is about a TV like mine that doesn't seem to support 240p. Does that mean that for an original Fami, I wouldn't be able to make an RF signal work either? Or does a 240p limitation not cover an RF/antenna signal?

[Einzelherz]

My plasma has been having some small issues lately. Any time there are large flat light colors on the screen (cartoons, south park especially) and there's a dark horizontal line to the right or left of it, there will often be a faint continuation of the line. At first I only noticed it in South Park and a few other cartoons, but lately it's been showing up more, even with the OSD.

Is this a lose ribbon or something inside the set? Are HDTVs a bitch to operate on?

[Guspaz]

And for my Canadian fellows :

Prime Cables (canadian seller of Monoprice cables) currently has a 15% off site-wide sale until october 28 at midnight.

They've got great shipping prices so canadians benefit greatly from ordering from them instead of directly from Monoprice. A lot cheaper this way.

Monoprice cables are also available on Amazon Canada. Some items are shipped directly from Monoprice USA with free shipping, and some items are carried directly by Amazon, meaning the usual free shipping rules apple (including Amazon Prime).

If you've got Amazon Prime, it's probably to buy smaller orders (under $49) from Amazon than PrimeCables due to the free prime shipping.

[FinalBaton]

Some items are shipped directly from Monoprice USA

This is actually not desirable at all. It legit takes 3 weeks to get stuff here from Monoprice USA.

Prime Cables is a hell of a lot faster at 2 day shippings for $5 (free with order over $49). And if you live in Montréal, you can get all deliveries free by having them delivered to a metro dépanneur, where you pick it up. And once in a while you get site-wide savings promotions(15% off, 20% off)

[Guspaz]

Sure, but items that are shipped directly from Amazon would qualify for prime shipping to anywhere in Canada with 2 day shipping.

[FinalBaton]

15% off tho

[beatsgo]

Bump:

Again, though, my main question is about a TV like mine that doesn't seem to support 240p. Does that mean that for an original Fami, I wouldn't be able to make an RF signal work either? Or does a 240p limitation not cover an RF/antenna signal?

This is dependent on the TV model, but technically speaking if the TV doesn't support 240p it doesn't support it. Composite and RF signals are treated as 240p.

[Guspaz]

That's really dependent on the TV, and even the input. For example, my projector's inputs:

Composite: Treated as 480i (4 frames of lag)
S-Video: Treated as 480i (4 frames of lag)
VGA (RGBHV): Not supported (invalid signal error)
VGA (RGBS): Not supported (invalid signal error)
VGA (RGsB): Supported (2 frames of lag)
Component: Supported (2 frames of lag)
HDMI: Unknown

If you just tried composite, you might think it has poor 240p support that tries to deinterlace it. If you just tried component, you might think it has perfect 240p support with minimal lag. If you just tried RGBS you might think it doesn't support 240p at all.

[atheistgod1999]

Out of curiosity using the composite cable into the Green port on the component jacks with the tv set to component in, do you get any picture at all?

Generally, no.

It's given me a black-and-white picture on every CRT TV I've tried. I don't get why it wouldn't display a picture, because composite is just a luma signal with chroma tacked on.

[orange808]

Out of curiosity using the composite cable into the Green port on the component jacks with the tv set to component in, do you get any picture at all?

Generally, no.

It's given me a black-and-white picture on every CRT TV I've tried. I don't get why it wouldn't display a picture, because composite is just a luma signal with chroma tacked on.

[atheistgod1999]

What? Is it because he means an LCD?

[Guspaz]

I don't have either of those to directly compare, but I can say that the colours are perfect out of the box with no tweaking required, and it has good build quality, metal with rubber feet.. Audio output is built-in (don't need to manually hack it on like the CSY clones), LED is not too bright with a limited viewing angle so that you can check that it's on but not be bothered by it the rest of the time.

The only thing that I noticed is that my projector (Epson PowerLite 8345) would lose sync on full-white GBA screens when connecting my PAL gameCube outputting NTSC GBI ULL (the most incompatible version). I didn't notice this problem with other outputs, but I only have limited testing time before my projector's bulb burnt out, and I've been waiting nearly a month for the replacement to arrive. This could easily have been caused by GBI ULL's low refresh rate, or one of the other components in the display chain. It's a convoluted display chain:

PAL GCN (NTSC signal with below-spec refresh rate)
Retro Gaming Cables PAL GCN RGB SCART cable (composite video sync)
Bandridge 5-port auto SCART switcher
Wookieewin SCART-to-BNC breakout cable
Sony PVM 14L2
Wookieewin BNC-to-SCART breakout cable (had him swap sync pin for other direction)
Shinybow SB-2840 SCART-to-YPbPr converter
Epson Powerlite 8345 projector

It'd be interesting to check if this happens in other scenarios and/or with different adapters. When my projector gets back up and running, I'll try to check with the HDR cables going direct to the projector, and if connecting the GCN directly to the Shinybow converter changes anything (eliminating most of the components in the chain).

Even direct it has this problem, and on many inputs. But the PVM has no problem with the same input.

A caveat then: The SB-2840 outputs a signal that some newer digital devices (like my Epson PowerLite 8345) may not like.

[Einzelherz]

What? Is it because he means an LCD?

orange808 is just so much more advanced than the rest of us he doesn't feel the need to actually have conversation. He is on such a higher astral plane that it is beneath him.

[orange808]

What? Is it because he means an LCD?

orange808 is just so much more advanced than the rest of us he doesn't feel the need to actually have conversation. He is on such a higher astral plane that it is beneath him.

Actually, that would make me telepathic.

I'm more than happy to engage in conversation with people that don't "quote" me with troll posts.

CRTs are flawless and better than LCDs at everything, because I'm a total noob to this stuff!!1

And what's a gaming LCD monitor?

Yes. After that, I'm going to roll my eyes everytime you say something ridiculous.

[atheistgod1999]

If the Framemeister "normalizes" the SNES's slightly-above-60Hz signal to 60Hz, then how does it deal with the fact that the SNES will gradually get more and more frames ahead of the scaler, because it's generating them faster than the scaler is outputing? Does it drop frames or something? How do TVs deal with it when the SNES is plugged straight in with analog input?

[Fudoh]

by default VSYNC is enabled, which means the FM's output is identical to its input refresh rate. You can disable VSYNC, which introduces a framerate conversion, but also stutter due to dropped or inserted frames.

[atheistgod1999]

I think I figured out how you could get the true RGB values of the NES' PPU, despite it outputting a composite signal:

Spoiler

Is there any documentation on which waveforms represent which NES colors? You'd need it for this (or use an oscilliscope, but it'd be less accurate due to being already analog).
If you know what each color corresponds to, you can perfectly separate the chroma and luma, because if you know the color isn't changing, then the chroma and luma are both unchanging as well, so you'd know the luma would be equal to the middle value of the waveform. Then you could perfectly separate that into Pb and Pr, and knowing the exact values of the Y, Pb, and Pr of that NES color, you could then perfectly convert those values to their corresponding RGB ones.

Would this be possible?

[korpse413]

What is the ideal true integer scaled video out mod for the Gamegear? Are kits available out there? I have heard about the McWill kit, but supposedly it is not 1:1? Or does the GG just have a bizarre resolution to output to begin with and these options are the best we are going to get?

[Guspaz]

The GameGear is the same resolution as the Game Boy, 160x144, although at a 4:3 aspect ratio. You've got two big problems:

1) It's not using square pixels like the Game Boy, so an integer scale is going to be the wrong aspect ratio

2) Nobody is making 160x144 or 320x288 screens.

If you want the aspect ratio to be remotely correct, you would need to do something like a 5x4 scale, which would get you 800x576, and you could do that on an 800x600 screen. Your aspect ratio wouldn't be too far off, 1.39x instead of 1.33x, but in the right ballpark. Of course, I don't think anybody makes 800x600 screens in the right size either...

320x240 is what the existing mods use, but they're sort of a poor compromise: 1:1 display makes for a super tiny image, and trying to scale it up either means you've got a 2x2 scale with a lot cut off and a bad aspect ratio, or you do interpolation (nearest-neighbour is what existing mods use) without enough pixels to maintain a sharp image.

I'm taking a guess here, but I suspect that the best possible option based on what's probably available today would be a 640x480 screen, with an integer horizontal scale, and an interpolated vertical scale. It would remain reasonably sharp, and have the correct aspect ratio, and I think 640x480 screens are still a thing.

Here's an original shot at 1:1 (but notably the wrong aspect ratio):



Here's the image using 1:1 on the 320x240 screens mods use (still wrong aspect ratio):



Here's the image using a 2:2 scale on a 320x240 screen like most mods use (still wrong pixel aspect ratio):



Here's the image using an aspect-ratio correct nearest-neighbour scale (which I think is what McWill's kit does, notice the distortion on Sonic):



Here's a 4x3 integer scale using bilinear to correct the aspect ratio at the end (to 640x480):



And here's an aspect-correct nearest-neighbour scale (the same method McWill's kit does) but on 640x480:



Personally, I think the last two options are good enough, so basically a 640x480 3.5" screen would be perfect, I think?

[ikari_01]

Two other samples:

norix's GGLCD mod also uses a 320x240 panel and applies bilinear scaling:

It adds noticeable blur but looks a bit less jaggy than McWill's.

McWill additionally provides a mode to compensate for the 3.2" crop of the Game Gear's screen bezel (image is an approximation, I don't know which dimensions it scales to exactly). This is a really useful feature but adds to the nearest neighbour scaling artifacts:


A 640x480 panel would be ideal but they seem scarce. There seem to be some 480x640 ones with acceptable optical characteristics (<20ms switching time, >90° viewing angle) but processing (=lag) would be necessary to buffer one frame, then output it to the LCD rotated.
Needless to say enough people are already complaining about the price of the mod. A higher-res display would further increase cost

[Fudoh]

What your screenshots don't show are the scrolling artefacts you get without filtering when applying next neighbour scaling without integer scaling factors.

[ikari_01]

Exactly, scrolling looks much worse than still pictures.

[korpse413]

Thank you Guspaz and Ikari_01 for sharing this information. I recently ordered an OSSC, so I'm sure I can mess with scaling then. I just need to add output capability to my GG before then. I'm not too concerned with an LCD replacement, but maybe it is one of those things where you just do it all as one kit in ond swoop. Plus it must improve battery life.

[Guspaz]

Bilinear interpolation should resolve any problems in motion, however, it's just using non-integer nearest-neighbour interpolation that causes issues (perceived shimmering) in motion.

GameGear video output mods are a different story than built-in screen mods, because they're not restricted to the 320x240 resolution. McWill's gamegear mod, for example, supports optional VGA output at 640x480. How the scaling works with that, I'm not sure: it probably still uses nearest-neighbour, which would look like my last example. Still shimmering in motion, but nowhere near as bad as on the built-in LCD, and not on left/right movement since it wouldn't need to crop.

EDIT: RetroRGB's site seems to indicate that McWill's mod when doing 480p output will do a 3x integer scale, leaving blank space around the screen, with an option to correct the aspect ratio by doing a non-integer scale (which would have shimmering). So if you have it do a 3x integer output scale and then correct for that on something like a Framemeister, that should look perfect.

[Shoryukev]

My biggest suggestion for people debating a Game Gear TV output mod is to look at game lists and see if using a Master System is good enough for you. A lot of us living in the US probably don't realize that there's a much larger library available on the SMS than we originally got. Streets of Rage 1&2, Sonic 1&2, Star Wars....you might be surprised that a lot of the Game Gear games you want to play are available on the Master System, they just weren't released in America.

I imported Sonic 1 & 2 along with a few others from the UK, and the added resolution really helps with some of the platforming. No more blind leaps of faith and that nausea inducing camera movement in Sonic 2 is gone. Hopefully in the future someone will make hacked Game Gear ROMs we can play on our Master Systems through use of a flash cart for the whole GG library. The hardware is so similar that I'm surprised someone hasn't already cracked that egg.

[Guspaz]

There are already a large number of romhacks to run GameGear ROMs on the Master System, often including more screen real-estate. The primary limitation is that the Master System's 64-colour palette is much smaller than the GameGear's 4096-colour palette. Converted games must be restricted to the much smaller palette, although the difference is smaller than you might think in practice.