Looking forward to "NX"? (aka The Switch Thread)

[Squire Grooktook]

Outside of indies, I'm ready to say the genre's dead.

Luckily for us, the best indie shmups of the last gen are already better than most arcade shmups of the last two gens (and most shmups, honestly, because quantitatively speaking there is so much garbage).

RefRain, Blue Revolver, and Mecha Ritz are a million times better than stuff like Trigger Heart Exelica, XIIZEAL, or Chaos Field.

agreed 200%

I'd already take Mecha Ritz over just about anything Cave has ever made.

My top 25 / top 50 list right now would be incredibly balanced with new and old titles near the top.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I can understand Chaos Field but what have you all got against Triggerheart and XIIZeal? The ports have auto-options for the wrist-breaking mechanics.

[Squire Grooktook]

(I personally don't have anything against Zeal or Triggerheart, but I agree with the general sentiment that gameplay mechanics continue to march on in terms of polish and innovation, and the overall level of quality in the genre has improved if anything)

[ZellSF]

What? Its 'selling point' is pretty clear - more so than the type of games it will host. It's about convenience and take away gaming and not being tied to the console under your TV in your bedroom. Like the video demonstrates, you can take the dog for his run around the park without having to suspend your Skyrim session for two hours.

My phone already does that. My tablet already does that.

I know, to you and me that argument makes zero sense, but handheld gaming console sales are down because people are satisfied with their phones and tablets for convenient gaming. How is the Switch going to change that?

Yes, Nintendo is consolidating their development from two platforms to just once and that will result in more first party titles, but is just that enough to make this a success?

Man, you seem particularly desperate for this to fail. I know you're a Sony guy, but give the thing a chance.

I want this to succeed actually. I like portable gaming devices. It's what Nintendo is going to do to get the rest of the world interested I'm worried about.

[Skykid]

What? Its 'selling point' is pretty clear - more so than the type of games it will host. It's about convenience and take away gaming and not being tied to the console under your TV in your bedroom. Like the video demonstrates, you can take the dog for his run around the park without having to suspend your Skyrim session for two hours.

My phone already does that. My tablet already does that.

I know, to you and me that argument makes zero sense, but handheld gaming console sales are down because people are satisfied with their phones and tablets for convenient gaming. How is the Switch going to change that?

But there's an overarching argument that consoles are generally outdated in the light of tablet and smartphone gaming. It didn't stop the PS4 and Xbox One continuing to command an audience. The Switch is still a games console first and foremost, and one of the things that attracts consumers to consoles is the streamlined aspect of your gaming. Just throw in the disc and go. The Switch is exactly the same, it just so happens that when someone wants the TV, when you need to get out the door to go to work in the morning, when you're going to meet a bunch of boring losers you don't want to talk to - you can just pull the screen out of the dock and take your game with you.

Personally I think it's shaping up to be a very exciting piece of hardware in the console world; certainly moreso than another slab of plastic that can also do Blu-Rays while you're vegetating on your couch. I'm pretty optimistic!

[qmish]

My phone already does that. My tablet already does that.

Sorry, but i need to repost something:

Mobile market is not what it used to be sadly. I was huge enthusiast of 2009-2012 iOS game scene but after that it (and Android) mostly transformed into what we have now – aimless cheap made f2p games where you always paying with YOUR TIME. Really, i moved to good old PSP (as i still have many games to play there) while on tablet and phone i only keep several classic ports, several shmups and several rhythm games (Groove Coaster by Taito is incredible for me). Now let me go a bit closer to what i wanted to say originally. While i still see western developers trying something on their smartphone ports, japanese games on another hand are usually total nonsense of which i am ashamed. I don’t know how this happened but it’s like a CURSE.

Many good japanese devs moved from consoles/portables to mobile and ALERT instead of making “actual” games there (like what they did for portables) they make something that should not even exist, maybe. Take a look at any random 50 japanese android games… You’ll see those awful lookalikes with cheaply made casual 2d vector drawn flat gfx that lacks any style besides pantsulover pleasing; instead of skill challenge you have challenge of putting your time in game, or go donat $$$ instead of grinding. You see SIMPLIFIED mechanics instead of classic genres. ALSO why, in the world, it’s like nearly every game now needs FALSE rpg elements. I also hate how those mobile games just DIE without internet. They are LINKED to their servers and updates. Especially on Android, where you only download 10 mb file and then game autodownload itself in process of game. Sometimes between choosing levels. That’s hilarious. OF COURSE same is applied to western made casual mobile games too, it’s just i DIDN’T expect that to be in Japan in even messier form (and dont get me started on awful interfaces!).

Now this sounds like a RANT from me, sorry, but it’s still important to say before i tell something more. As i already said before, it’s painful to see how good developers forced to leave “actual games” for those replacement. So you see Sakaguchi doing f2p TCG instead of jRPG. Same for Tri-Ace (which future is under big question after Star Ocean 5 fail and Exist Archive’s lukewarm recognition). EVEN NINTENDO do something like that – runner Mario instead of platformer, Pokemon Go instead of rpg etc. And THE THING is that those simplified games are moving from mobiles to consoles now! Look at those ports of them for 3DS and Vita and PC etc. So yeah, i would afraid they can let them migrate to Switch too.

[gameoverDude]

First there was GameBoy. Say hello to the Nintendo GameBeagle. (thanks BryanM for giving me that idea).

[ZellSF]

qmish: only point I got from that rant was that mobile games suck. I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying for most people, it's enough for their portable needs.

What? Its 'selling point' is pretty clear - more so than the type of games it will host. It's about convenience and take away gaming and not being tied to the console under your TV in your bedroom. Like the video demonstrates, you can take the dog for his run around the park without having to suspend your Skyrim session for two hours.

My phone already does that. My tablet already does that.

I know, to you and me that argument makes zero sense, but handheld gaming console sales are down because people are satisfied with their phones and tablets for convenient gaming. How is the Switch going to change that?

But there's an overarching argument that consoles are generally outdated in the light of tablet and smartphone gaming. It didn't stop the PS4 and Xbox One continuing to command an audience.

I did not make that overarching argument that consoles are outdated, just that portables are. The PS4 and Xbox One commands an audience because they have a lot of things going for them that we've seen no indication the Switch will have:

• Rich third party support both in terms of games and apps
• High performance at a reasonable cost
• Blu-ray (4K in case of Xbox One S) playback
• Social integration features

These things might not sound important to you, but as you pointed out yourself, these consoles are doing well. Those things are part of the reason.

Going out with the main marketing message that the Switch is a portable in a time where a lot of people have replaced their portables with phones just has me worried.

Again, I love the concept of the console. But I'm really afraid this will turn into another huge marketing blunder by Nintendo.

[GaijinPunch]

Nintendo's portables have always had great 3rd party support. I think performance is relative. If you think of the Switch as a portable with 1080p output for a TV (and they market it more towards that than a console), then Nintendo could be sitting pretty. Really does depend on a few things (attracting 3rd party support for sure) but I am siding with Skykid on this one. For now, at least.

Also patiently waiting for a system hack and the eventual GBA emulator.

[Skykid]

I did not make that overarching argument that consoles are outdated, just that portables are. The PS4 and Xbox One commands an audience because they have a lot of things going for them that we've seen no indication the Switch will have:

• Rich third party support both in terms of games and apps
• High performance at a reasonable cost
• Blu-ray (4K in case of Xbox One S) playback
• Social integration features

These things might not sound important to you, but as you pointed out yourself, these consoles are doing well. Those things are part of the reason.

Blu-Rays and social integration are absolutely not important to me, nor do I think they're massively important to the Japanese, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the Switch will do very well domestically.

"High performance" is relative. If you're talking about how many polygons it can shift I don't really care: games these days have plateau'd where graphical tech is concerned and it won't matter much if the output it slightly below the competition. Besides, you say Nintendo have given no indication of performance but feature Skyrim running prominently in the trailer. If it can run Skyrim as a benchmark that's perfectly good enough to convince me it's powerful enough for everything I need.

3rd party support is of course paramount, but it's early days on that front.

Going out with the main marketing message that the Switch is a portable in a time where a lot of people have replaced their portables with phones just has me worried.

You keep saying this and I'm honestly not sure what you're seeing. To me the message was a fully fledged gaming console that can ALSO be taken on the move. I think of it in the same way as if I could take my PS4 on my Vita when leaving the house except not via a shitty WiFi streaming service.

I think you have approached this incorrectly: it's a home console with a portability hook, not the other way around. Stop thinking about the tablet in the dock as the primary interface and rather as an accessory and it makes a lot more sense.

Again, I love the concept of the console. But I'm really afraid this will turn into another huge marketing blunder by Nintendo.

Wouldn't worry, seems like this one has already got people's interest. The Wii U didn't even get that far.

[neorichieb1971]

Haven't bought since Gamecube. And I'm already ready to put my greens down on a switch based on the promotional material shown so far.

The fact is, I've missed what output Nintendo put out and only shunned it previously because of how you interfaced with that output. I'd quite happily buy the Mario galaxy games if upgraded to the Switch. There are quite a few titles that fit in this category for me. I'm also very happy that Switch does not use blu rays. Blu rays are benchmarked pretty slow but because of capacity have been the first choice. But now we reach a new era and Nintendo have innovated again (if you call going to cards innovation, which incidentally I do).

Remember Nintendo is a toy company (thats how I see them) and they should be making fun entertainment on a device that can be dropped from 2 feet without concern.

[BryanM]

It is pretty incredible how far solid state has come. Violet ray discs have been on the market for maybe five years, and they're already an obsolete crude relic of the past. VHS lasted a bit over two decades. Guess that's a good example of Kurzweil's "accelerating returns".

Wish the same could be said for LCD displays. Why did OLED, or something else not replace it yet? Costs? Reliability issues? Plebians being unable to tell the difference in quality?



(And isn't it kind of weird how the marketing people decided to market "blue" instead of "violet"? Usually they try to make things look better than they are such as with the lie of "4k" displays or calling stereovision "3d". Guess they assumed no one would know the difference and that blue is perceived as cooler.)

[Specineff]

^^^ I thought the main problem with OLED is that it degrades over time.

I have to ask one thing about the Switch: Why no D-pad?

[neorichieb1971]

I have to ask one thing about the Switch: Why no D-pad?

Probably because its old tech.

[BryanM]

I assumed to go all-in with the multiplayer portable gimmick. They want their customers to become zombie salesmen and infect everyone with Mario Kart Madness. (Didn't the ad reveal their dystopian nightmare world where everyone plays nintendo all the time always?)

The pro controller for pros still retains it.

[HydrogLox]

Nintendo Declines to Comment On Touchscreen Enquiry

Having no touch screen would be an enormous mistake IMO.

Logic would dictate that, because most people don't own HD TV's with touch sensors, you can't make a home console with touch controls. It's a physical impossibility.

Also simultanous two player control which seems to be a core feature would get really messy (if not awkward) with a touch screen on a single device.

The only reason not to include touchscreen functionality is to introduce it as "SWITCH: TOUCH" in a year's time ... would be a colossal error.

Frankly I'm expecting that Nintendo already has an optional specialty controller integrating a low-res touch screen on the books which features strongly in their DS/3DS/Wii-U virtual console strategy. Maybe Nintendo learned from the Wii-U fiasco, i.e. this time include the simple controller(s) in the box and mandate that they are sufficient for any title published on the platform while optionally offering more sophisticated specialty controllers that developers may elect to support.

net browser will be on board and is a given

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Nintendo balked at including DVD functionality when all the other optical disc consoles included it. Given that this luggable isn't aimed at displacing smart devices Nintendo might simply argue that web browsing belongs on a smart device which likely most Nintendo devotees will own anyway to consume Nintendo's mobile fare.

If this is replacing Nintendo's console and handheld lines, it seems a step back from the 3DS. It's too big and does away with the second screen.

Nintendo's simpler(, one player per device) handheld fare is going to be relegated to Nintendo mobile - anything more substantial and complex (with two players per device support) is going to be elevated to the luggable (lan) party machine. Anything benefiting from a second screen could support an optional touch screen controller; Nintendo could even publish an App that turns your smart device into a rudimentary touch screen controller.

... but handheld gaming console sales are down because people are satisfied with their phones and tablets for convenient gaming. How is the Switch going to change that?

Some people will simply stick with Nintendo mobile - that being said Nintendo will use their mobile outlet to constantly promote the luggable and ultimately will try to make it the gateway drug to the "deluxe experience" with physical controls right out of the box (with the possibility of specialty (touch screen) controller support) and two simultaneous players per device support.

3rd party support is of course paramount, but it's early days on that front.

Frankly given what is going on with indie support of the Vita it might be more beneficial if Nintendo fostered the indie scene right from the get-go to get the good ones on their platform first. General 3rd party support will likely only gain momentum once the install-base is sufficiently large.

[iconoclast]

Takashi Mochizuki ‏@mochi_wsj 41m41 minutes ago
Nintendo: To hold Nintendo Switch Presentation 2017 on Jan 12. It includes 1) price, 2) software lineup and 3) launch date

Might as well wait a couple months to predict if this thing will flop or not.

[Skykid]

net browser will be on board and is a given

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Nintendo balked at including DVD functionality when all the other optical disc consoles included it. Given that this luggable isn't aimed at displacing smart devices Nintendo might simply argue that web browsing belongs on a smart device which likely most Nintendo devotees will own anyway to consume Nintendo's mobile fare.

It's a given.

[atheistgod1999]

It's a given.

^

After all, I was browsing the web in Opera on my Wii when I was in like second grade. Why would they stop including it on this? Nintendo never had DVD playback on any of their consoles, while the Wii, Wii U, DSi, and 3DS have all already had web browsers.

[ZellSF]

After all, I was browsing the web in Opera on my Wii when I was in like second grade. Why would they stop including it on this?

Security, kid friendliness, cost?

I think you have approached this incorrectly: it's a home console with a portability hook, not the other way around. Stop thinking about the tablet in the dock as the primary interface and rather as an accessory and it makes a lot more sense.

That's exactly what I'm afraid people will see it as. They don't want the portable, so they'll see it as a console with the heavy compromises it will need to make on performance to make it portable. Compromises that will make cross platform development between NX, PS4 and Xbone less likely.

Blu-Rays and social integration are absolutely not important to me, nor do I think they're massively important to the Japanese, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the Switch will do very well domestically.

I don't doubt it will do well in Japan (they seem to like portables), but I don't speak Japanese, so it's success in English speaking countries is more important to me so I get localized games. I also like a lot of western game output, and those aren't going to jump on a console just because it does well in Japan.

[Skykid]

After all, I was browsing the web in Opera on my Wii when I was in like second grade. Why would they stop including it on this?

Security, kid friendliness, cost?

Absurd. Can everyone stop questioning if it's going to have a fucking net browser in the menu? It's like you don't know anything about the video game market or the modern world.

I think you have approached this incorrectly: it's a home console with a portability hook, not the other way around. Stop thinking about the tablet in the dock as the primary interface and rather as an accessory and it makes a lot more sense.

That's exactly what I'm afraid people will see it as. They don't want the portable, so they'll see it as a console with the heavy compromises it will need to make on performance to make it portable. Compromises that will make cross platform development between NX, PS4 and Xbone less likely.

You seem to keep flip-flopping to find things to be afraid of. I don't think anyone will see it as an underpowered console, they'll just see it as a console. Cross platform development would be useful for sure, but Nintendo tend to encourage developers to build software based around the hardware. All this is conjecture though because it might be suitably powerful enough.

[ZellSF]

I'm not. I'm afraid that people won't want a portable, and that's where the NX's offering is strong. As a console? Not so much... You say no one will see it as an underpowered console because of the compromises in performance it will have to make for it to be portable. I really disagree, people do care about graphic performance, developers certainly care about the limits they will be working with.

Absurd. Can everyone stop questioning if it's going to have a fucking net browser in the menu? It's like you don't know anything about the video game market or the modern world.

Here's the thing though: if this wasn't a device by Nintendo, no one would be questioning it. They are remarkably out of touch with the modern world at times.

[Skykid]

I'm not. I'm afraid that people won't want a portable, and that's where the NX's offering is strong. As a console? Not so much... You say no one will see it as an underpowered console because of the compromises in performance it will have to make for it to be portable. I really disagree, people do care about graphic performance, developers certainly care about the limits they will be working with.

Well like I said, we don't know anything except Skyrim. Is Skyrim particularly limited when it comes to technology and development power?

Here's the thing though: if this wasn't a device by Nintendo, no one would be questioning it. They are remarkably out of touch with the modern world at times.

We know they choose to ignore multimedia by choice: it's crazy to think one of the world's largest technology corporations is "out of touch with the modern world". You could argue they're out of touch with modern gamer's desires, but then they'd argue they're trying to create their own thing.

Anyway, the net browser will be there or I'll eat my own cock.

[HydrogLox]

Absurd. Can everyone stop questioning if it's going to have a fucking net browser in the menu? It's like you don't know anything about the video game market or the modern world.

How would not having a web browser be a show stopper for this platform? Nobody is saying that the platform native front end won't have wireless internet access to Nintendo's online service. I never found the browser in the PSP, PS Vita, or 3DS all that useful, the NetFront (NX) browsers perform rather poorly in the age of evergreen browsers. Yes, I use the browser on my smart phone all the time but that is connected to the cellular data network and is usually within arm's reach.

Here's the thing though: if this wasn't a device by Nintendo, no one would be questioning it. They are remarkably out of touch with the modern world at times.

I simply do not see that a web browser adds any value to this thing - these days people in their target market tend to have multiple avenues of access via other devices that support web functionality much better than the Switch will ever be able to. Also having native-only internet access will let them feature parental controls front and center which they'll probably rather pour money and effort into than integrating yet another sub-mediocre web browser that no one ever uses.

... people won't want a portable, and that's where the NX's offering is strong. As a console? Not so much... You say no one will see it as an underpowered console because of the compromises in performance it will have to make for it to be portable. I really disagree, people do care about graphic performance, developers certainly care about the limits they will be working with.

I think the problem here is the definition of what a console actually is. People who are happy with mobile fare will stick with Nintendo mobile and people addicted to eye-candy will stick with their PC/online-service-box. During the fourth console generation "consoles" were gaming dedicated and optimized consumer electronics that were simpler and cheaper than your average PC. These days PS4 and Xbox One are competing with the PC gaming market. The Switch isn't aiming for that arena - it's aiming to recreate that "console slot" in the gaming market that existed during the fourth generation with a few updates (especially as ubiquitous smart devices have essentially obliterated the market for lower end products that used to be published for handheld consoles). I think the best comparison is that the Switch is the specialized gaming equivalent of a netbook computer. Granted it will probably cost just as much as a low-end netbook but will likely have superior graphics/gaming performance, ease of use (albeit constrained and restricted) and ergonomics to a netbook of comparable cost.

One of the hooks of course is the emphasis on local two player support. Modern gaming seems to be multi-player oriented but is largely a solitary affair given that the majority of on-line games only support a single player per device. Lots of people have fond memories of getting together with friends in the same room and playing video games together - and Nintendo wants to capitalize on that before these people leave the gaming market altogether.

In the West expect to see commercials with kids in the backseat of the car playing together on the same device - rather than playing in isolation on their own device or having to take turns on the same device. Parents get home in the dark, putting the kids to bed, swiping the Switch, taking it with them to a party where everyone brought theirs, possibly with the host's system on the TV. Everybody playing party games and having a riot (so really not that different from the Wii commercials but with different tech).

From the development perspective the Switch may turn out to be somewhat complex especially when it comes to the multi-device distribution features - which may turn off smaller developers that aren't as loyal and dedicated as for example Shin'en Multimedia, so Nintendo really needs to get their development support together.

I think this time around Nintendo has a cohesive product vision and strategy however as they seem to want to create a new sub-market success is far from assured.

[GaijinPunch]

Anyway, the net browser will be there or I'll eat my own cock.

Definitely cheering for no net browser now.

[Skykid]

I'm not in a hurry to remove ribs, I think there's more chance of the Pope coming out as gay than there is not being a web browser in the Switch. All this speculation about it is slapstick; what happened to the much more pertinent touchscreen question?

Anyway, I had a revelation while staring at the ceiling with a headache: The Switch tablet will have a camera, guaranteed WiFi connectivity, and a strong possibility of a sim card setup for mobile WiFi. The touchscreen is also a strong contender for an upcoming announcement.

How did I come to this assessment? Because Pokémon GO.

What's the perfect way to guarantee your launch of a device that can be played at home or outside? With a killer app that utilises both of those options. That killer app is absolutely Pokemon Go. And what better way to advertise your new console than have every motherfucker and his dog running around hotspots wielding the device like a divine electronic portal. The screen real estate will make GO enthusiasts piss their pants to buy one, and it's really the only thing that's guaranteed to shift units day one.

Now I could be completely wrong about this and Nintendo may be wearing their dunce cap to the degree that none of this occurred to them - but I doubt it.

[Mischief Maker]

But if the switch is supposed to be touchscreen, what do you do when the screen is in its stand so you can play on your big TV?

There isn't a touchscreen when the controller is in the "at-home" configuration.

For the record the only game I played with touchscreen controls where they weren't a detriment to the fun was Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword, and even then it wasn't all that amazing.

[iconoclast]

Cross platform development would be useful for sure, but Nintendo tend to encourage developers to build software based around the hardware.

This hasn't worked out for a Nintendo console in 20 years. The N64, Gamecube, Wii, and Wii U all had weak third party support to varying degrees. The Wii is only a partial exception since it did have a lot of third party games, but very few of them were targeted at core gamers - those were on the PS3 and 360. The Wii was just big enough for publishers to create games specifically for its audience. The Wii U was especially bad because Nintendo thought it would be a good idea to release a console in 2013 that was weaker than a console from 2005. Developers are making games for the PS4 and XB1, so Nintendo better release a comparable console if they want support for it.

[neorichieb1971]

Cross platform development would be useful for sure, but Nintendo tend to encourage developers to build software based around the hardware.

This hasn't worked out for a Nintendo console in 20 years. The N64, Gamecube, Wii, and Wii U all had weak third party support to varying degrees. The Wii is only a partial exception since it did have a lot of third party games, but very few of them were targeted at core gamers - those were on the PS3 and 360. The Wii was just big enough for publishers to create games specifically for its audience. The Wii U was especially bad because Nintendo thought it would be a good idea to release a console in 2013 that was weaker than a console from 2005. Developers are making games for the PS4 and XB1, so Nintendo better release a comparable console if they want support for it.

Nintendo have innovated the most over the years. And to some extent Sony and Microsoft just stole all those innovations.


Super Nintendo - Svideo support
N64 - 4 joystick support out of the box
N64 - Rumble
Gamecube - First wireless controller (Wavebird)
Wii - Everything except graphical prowess

Nintendo will succeed with NX. Because they are like a lion thats starving. Its kill or be killed time. Its obvious to me that they are pulling out all the stops to make an "Apple" type product. One that appeals to everyone at least a little bit. Its like a PC Engine/Gameboy combination. If they package those games in some remarkable kind of way it might be as collectable as the SNES or Neo geo. I see lots of appeal here.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Nintendo would do well to get back to the Wii at least for third party "hardcore" games - you won't have technical parity with xbone or PS4 but you can have system exclusives, or lower resolution ports. The Wii got all the major Call of Duty titles of the time (bar Modern Warfare 2) and handled them pretty well, but they screwed up with bollocks stripped down FIFA games that had less content than the Gamecube ones. If you can get those two on board you can start to get the core market interested - portability becomes an acceptable trade-off for screen and texture resolution, as the difference is less noticable on smaller displays.

It just needs games - especially at launch where the WiiU was really hit badly. At least here if they're doing ports of old PS360 they'll be able to come out alongside remasters of the same titles for xbone and PS4 (which for some batty reason loads of people are permanently stoked for).