Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[KatKya]

Oh yeah, forgot that detail. D-Terminal is Japan's component video for all intents and purposes (though I think there are differences in max resolution?).

It has pins to signify the maximum resolution supported over that cable, but the actual video signals themselves are exactly the same, and you can use a D-Terminal cable on a Component capable set with a simple breakout.

That's actually what I do for my Gamecube; Managed to get a DOL-009 for much cheaper than DOL-010s went for, let alone what they go for now.

[ahaddow]

One last go for today...
Just found this PVM-D14L5J[ that looks to be in good shape for about 200$ right now. I was hoping to go for the 20", but in my tiny apartment this might be better...

What would you guys suggest?

I could go for the 27" WEGA Trinitron I posted earlier, or the above PVM. Both are within my budget.

Regarding shipping, it appears the PVM will get shipped for less than 20$, while the 27" will cost me 60$.

In terms of cable pricing, if I went with the Wega I would still likely be getting the AV Multi cable-RGB21 Female, plus RGB cables for SNES and Playstation, so I don't think my cable cost would change too much. I probably sound like I am talking myself back into the PVM.

A question about cables if I did go with the PVM though: The seller here is including BNC-RCA adapters, but I have had a hard time finding RGB21-RCA/BNC breakout leads here in Japan. They must exist, right? I've seen one on ebay.com that I may have to just jump on.

[sanni]

Do you think those unshielded JBL speakers will harm the bvm tube?

[Ikaruga11]

Why would they?

[Einzelherz]

YPbPr on the PS2 is noticably less saturated than RGsB on the PS2. Apparently its not quite as sharp either.

So you are stating these as facts but you have no personal experience with them, yes?

[Ikaruga11]

YPbPr on the PS2 is noticably less saturated than RGsB on the PS2. Apparently its not quite as sharp either.

So you are stating these as facts but you have no personal experience with them, yes?

They are facts. The PS2 is known to have a noisy component encoder.

[bobrocks95]

YPbPr on the PS2 is noticably less saturated than RGsB on the PS2. Apparently its not quite as sharp either.

So you are stating these as facts but you have no personal experience with them, yes?

Fudoh has said something similar in the past, I just don't remember for sure that it was component.

[atheistgod1999]

The PS2 is known to have a noisy component encoder.

My PS2 slim (SCPH 79001?) doesn't have any issue with component noise. I saw purple static on my BVM (too minor to be noticeable on consumer TVs) when I was using ~$5 third-party component cables, but it went away when I switched to official gold-plated PS3-style ones.

Speaking of which, I really miss using my BVM I think my consumer Toshiba has better edge geometry, though.

[bobrocks95]

It's unlikely to be noticeable on an analog display, I doubt it's bad enough for that. The difference would come into play with something like a Framemeister (and then probably still isn't a big deal).

[Einzelherz]

I've never noticed a difference between RGB and YUV over the same cable for both with either ps1 or ps2 games on my slims. These are on CRT monitors, however.

"Possible issues with encoders" isn't "noticeably less saturated" or "not quite as sharp".

I really loathe the parroting that occurs when laying out misinformation as hard truth.

[Ikaruga11]

I've never noticed a difference between RGB and YUV over the same cable for both with either ps1 or ps2 games on my slims. These are on CRT monitors, however.

"Possible issues with encoders" isn't "noticeably less saturated" or "not quite as sharp".

I really loathe the parroting that occurs when laying out misinformation as hard truth.

[Fudoh]

I've never noticed a difference between RGB and YUV over the same cable for both with either ps1 or ps2 games on my slims. These are on CRT monitors, however.

I agree. It really just matters with A/D converters with badly configured low pass filters.

[speedlolita]

I've never noticed a difference between RGB and YUV over the same cable for both with either ps1 or ps2 games on my slims. These are on CRT monitors, however.

"Possible issues with encoders" isn't "noticeably less saturated" or "not quite as sharp".

I really loathe the parroting that occurs when laying out misinformation as hard truth.

Laying down an emote as a reply just makes you look like an ass, btw.

[Ikaruga11]

I've never noticed a difference between RGB and YUV over the same cable for both with either ps1 or ps2 games on my slims. These are on CRT monitors, however.

"Possible issues with encoders" isn't "noticeably less saturated" or "not quite as sharp".

I really loathe the parroting that occurs when laying out misinformation as hard truth.

Laying down an emote as a reply just makes you look like an ass, btw.

Denying the hard truth and shrugging it off as parroted misinformation makes someone more of an ass, though.

http://www.retrorgb.com/playstation.html#ps2

Best output solution: RGB Cable (linked above) and use sync-on-green for 480p
Easier solution for 480p: Component video cables; Also supports 240p & 480i, links to the right -->

The component video encoder in the Playstation 2 is known to be a bit noisy. If your setup only supports 240p & 480i (and you're already a SCART user), you don't have to worry about this at all: Just get an RGB SCART cable and skip all the 480p talk in this section. Alternatively, if you're using a consumer-grade CRT, just use whatever option is easiest for you, as you most likely won't be able to tell the difference. I'll explain the better 480p option...

...but before I begin, I'd like to mention that if your setup only consists of component video and HDMI consoles, it's probably not worth adding all the equipment involved with RGB SCART to upgrade your PS2 experience. I'm assuming most people reading this page already have RGB setups, but if you came here looking for a quick PS2 solution, it's best to just use component video. Anyway, for RGB SCART users...

Your first choice is to just deal with component video. It's not a "bad" solution and depending on your setup, using anything else might make things extremely complicated. Many PS2 games don't support 480p, so unless your equipment already supports RGsB (more on that in a sec), an easy solution might be to use RGB SCART for most games and switch to component for 480p.

If you'd like the best solution, you can use your RGB SCART cable for all resolutions (including 480p) by using a feature called "sync on green", which is a signal that combines the sync information with the green color line, referred to as RGsB. If you're not familiar with this term, I suggest reading though the sync page. There are a few ways to use RGsB and there's a chance you already have equipment that supports it!:

[bobrocks95]

The guy who runs retrorgb is a nice and knowledgeable dude, but him saying it's "known to be a bit noisy" is hardly a definitive source. If the argument is that it's just hearsay that's been repeated enough for people to believe it, his statement just kind of reinforces that idea.

Proof would be direct capture comparisons (which still has some issues), or better, oscilloscope readings. Again I'd like to stress though that I don't think it matters or is really noticeable to anyone, especially those playing on a CRT.

[Ikaruga11]

https://youtu.be/3yeKMo6mcAo?t=4m28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pzTfdUcAfg

[bobrocks95]

Something is clearly wrong in that top video, I'd say his BVM isn't properly calibrated for one of the inputs. Anyone would notice that level of brightness difference.

The retrorgb is comparing 480p RGsB output to YPbPr. Considering the extremely small number of 480p PS2 games that's a different comparison that's not nearly as applicable- the PS2 uses RGBs for all 15kHz material.

[speedlolita]

Something is clearly wrong in that top video, I'd say his BVM isn't properly calibrated for one of the inputs. Anyone would notice that level of brightness difference.

Aren't the RGB and component "channels" independent of each other settings wise? I'm sure this was the case on my 20M4E...

[KatKya]

https://youtu.be/3yeKMo6mcAo?t=4m28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pzTfdUcAfg

As useful as RetroRGB is for being a nice centralized place to start learning about RGB monitors and the like, he sources his information anecdotally and from first hand experience rather than solid numbers.

Phonedork also tends to source his information the same way, from what he sees and from the community. There's nothing wrong with that but treating it as solid fact on the other hand is. I say this as the person who informed him of the PS2's RGsB capability after his previous video featuring the D24 that first mentioned the differences between the PS2's RGB and Component.

To put my own opinions in on the matter, I believe this may be another case of the differences being much more minor when you're dealing with CRTs as opposed to digital conversions. I don't have nearly as high end of a PVM/BVM as him, but in my own experiences, the difference in picture quality seems be dependent on the circuit in the monitor used for getting RGB back from Component. Comparing native RGB to native YPbPr on my monitors all show slight differences between the two(which could be attributed to calibration differences), but in using an external transcoder and comparing native RGB to the transcoded RGB gives an essentially identical picture.

If you have the ability to run straight RGB for everything, that'd obviously the better idea, but the idea of the quality gap between PS2RGB and Component being anything more than a trivial one is silly.


All that said, I would love to see an actual scientific comparison between the two on an oscilloscope in a similar method to what was done for Gamecube's component versus the Wii's.

[Ikaruga11]

All that said, I would love to see an actual scientific comparison between the two on an oscilloscope in a similar method to what was done for Gamecube's component versus the Wii's.

Me too.

Well said btw

[bigbadboaz]

Do you think those unshielded JBL speakers will harm the bvm tube?

You'll see pretty quickly if there is any color distortion from the magnetic fields. If you catch it right away and move the speakers accordingly, a few degauss cycles should fix the issue. If you're not seeing any visual issues, nothing to worry about!

[LDigital]

I have found another d24 that I am trying to save after the last success (faulty fly back)
This one has a blue screen with retrace lines before overloading. I have changed all of the modular boards for know working ones and now thing it's either the voltage that is too high or the CRT is kaput. I want to adjust he voltage down but not mess anything else up. Which of these dials is likely to be the voltage?

[ryu]

Should be lower one on the left.

it seems to be glued in place though...

[MKL]

Both pots on the flyback are for focus (it's a double focus tube). The G2 pot must be on the neckboard as is often the case with Sony. Blue screen is likely to be a bad video amp transistor on the neckboard.

[LDigital]

Should be lower one on the left.

it seems to be glued in place though...

Ryu, Do you mean the one labelled xbv up close or the one further away in the picture?

I'll swap out the neck board before adjusting anything to give it an inspection and see if a known working one does the trick

[MKL]

Don't touch any of the things in your pictures.

[sanni]

Is there anything wrong with the EXTRON MPS 112 switch? They go for pennies on ebay.

[bobrocks95]

Is there anything wrong with the EXTRON MPS 112 switch? They go for pennies on ebay.

Extron makes good, quality switches, so I really doubt it. You might find more use for their pure VGA switches if you don't have mixed connectors for your consoles (i.e. mostly RGB).

I use one myself for all my RGB consoles. Only thing is they may require clean sync, as I don't have any composite video sync cables to test with.

[Guspaz]

The EXTRON MPS 112 does not support signal conversion, so be warned that it acts like three different switches in one box: the s-video inputs can only ever be routed to the s-video output, the composite inputs can only be routed to the composite output, and the VGA inputs can only be routed to the composite output. All the "single switch" mode appears to do is provide a single audio output.

[kamiboy]

I think it is time I got off my arse and fixed a long running fault of my x68000 monitor.

Here is a video demonstrating the issue.

https://youtu.be/UkNC7NlNixk

As you can see the brightness tends to fluctuate erratically. The fluctuations are most erratic at the start, but calm down after a minute or two.

This is not a capacitor issue since I already recapped this thing to get rid of this problem and another erratic colour vanishing issue. The recap was completely unnecessary though, all the caps were fine. I managed to solve the colour issue by using the old tapping around the boards trick to locate a cold solder joint on the neck board.

The brightness issue though does not seem to be locatable by tapping around. It could still be a cold solder joint though.

With a simple arcade monitor I would just shotgun reflow all solder joints, but as with everything else on the x68000 the monitor is an over engineered monster with 3 large boards containing hundreds of components.

I am hoping to draw on expert knowledge to narrow down my search.

I suspect the problem causes the brightness to go up from normal, rather than down, if that somehow helps to isolate the issue. There is a knob on the front for brightness adjustment and even when I turn it to its lowest when the brightness fluctuates it tends to go very high. Higher than I would expect to be normal for the lowest brightness setting.

Any good advice chaps?