Why no Kid Icarus sequels?

[Squire Grooktook]

I credit fed it to completion 5 years ago or so. It's okay.

I really admire the variety they packed into it within the typical linear arcadey structure. Between the ascension, side scrolling, and dungeon stages, capped off with the final shmup stage, it does impress in terms of imagination.

Doesn't actually play all that well though does it? Contra 1 I can boot up anytime and have a rollicking good time with its silky smooth controls, varied and smart level design, and chaotic rng twitch action. Booting up Kid Icarus, the stiffness just reminds me of why I never bothered to return to it after the initial credit feed. I actually tried recently, didn't find it terribly exciting and promptly went back to something meatier. Pretty sure this is a "mechanics" thing and not a "nostalgia" thing.

Metroids floatier but tighter controls gives its constant combat more of an edge, and its slightly less linear exploration (compared to the games it spawned) make it feel a bit more interesting as well (much like Zelda 1's wide open sandbox staying memorable after its sequels more or less limit you to a predictable route). I'd much rather be playing that between the two, truth be told.

[M.Knight]

Kid Icarus is defintely no Contra, that's for sure. I don't even think both games aim for the same kind of experience though. Contra is fast-paced and frantic while Kid Icarus asks the player to be more cautious and to take their time to destroy as many enemies in each stage as possible to claim the health and power upgrades. Combined with the scenery variety, it feels more like an adventure or an odyssey than an action-packed roller-coaster.

This slower pace and higher length of a run also mean the game is not the most replayable ever. I used to play this game quite a bit but have difficulty mustering up the motivation to go through a full run again nowadays, even though I like it. That said, aiming for the best ending can be a source of motivation to play better instead of credit-feeding, especially in the JP version where you'll need to one-life the game on top of maxing out your health and power levels.

[BryanM]

Level 1-3 is just like an abusive husband. "Sorry about all that shit I did to ya baby." Then you get double the life, enemies get half the life, and the one tile death jumps disappear completely. It really makes you feel like you're going to a better place. And you can pat yourself on the back for having completed the game.

That's another major complaint about Kid Icarus I guess; it's a pity the game is only two levels long. Would be absolutely awesome if it really was an odyssey like Faxanadu.

The SMB style "garnish backgrounds", where the backgrounds are empty except for a few objects.. I've always liked this kind of austere style. It doesn't clutter the screen but still cares enough to go like "here's a mountaintop. You *enjoy* that mountaintop. It's all you're getting." Metroid doesn't have any decorative background tiles in the entire game, doesn't it? I can't remember any.

BryanM, are you playing the 3D Classics version? I played it once and I remembered its original control mode being quite off. I quickly switched back to my GBA cart.

I'd like to try it since I thought the backgrounds looked pretty, but not enough so to spend $125 for it. If its not accurate that tempers my enthusiasm about it - I already saw videos of the thing where Pit was talking in front of pillars and bushes and such. That kind of thing is triggering.

It'd be weird and scary to reenter the world of gaming bereft of a fast forward button. It's kind of horrifying how many games are made so much better by that.

Contra

I never really liked the fixed direction shots and ample safe zones in this one.

Maybe I should blame SHMUPs for not being able to enjoy so many oldies. Threading through ~6 projectiles a second kind of makes anything less seem like washing the dishes or mowing the lawn.

The AVGN guy gets mocked here constantly about how the guy complained about the difficulty of a couple wavey medusa heads and an axe. It's a very different lens of looking at things, I guess.

[Squire Grooktook]

Outside of the base stages and the perplexingly zako absent final stage, there aren't really any safe zones in Contra 1. That's exactly why it stands the test of time. It's easy as fuck, but there's barely a place in the game where a random runner zako doesn't have a chance of jogging into you from front or back or pulling a sucker punch bullet. It's easy but its tense, and you could 1lc it a million times and still have plenty of "!!!" moments when a zako sneaks up on you and forces some deft improvisation.

Don't know what you mean by 6 projectiles or fixed direction. As a side scroller, challenge comes from other places then pure bullet weaving. It's more like reaction based bullet patforming (which requires its own unique skill-set, given that you need to visualize gravity and direction + sight reading hazard paths whilst navigating them mid air) mixed in with shootable hazards (shooting approaching joggers before they kamekaze you while navigating terrain and traps, much more intricate than shmups since you actually have account for targets from different directions), all bound together by the eternal drive to continuously push forward. This genre is a very different beast with a style and appeal of its own.

Personally I often find 10 million bullet danmaku games a bit bland because by their nature, they often encourage you to slow down and make microscopic movements to dodge (focus mode: all the fun of dodging bullets at 5 inchers per hour), as opposed to the hyper lightning fast zippy dodges that large hitboxes and sparse-but-fast bullets force. Without a conscious effort to reward macro-dodging on the part of developers, danmaku can often ironically end up being slower-paced despite being "manic"... But this is just one of many examples of how game design and playstyle run deeper than surface impressions.

[BryanM]

Fixed pattern shots are when an enemy can only fire in a fixed area. To illustrate, I painstakingly illustrated a filthy xeno boss from my vague memory -



The three red prongs denote the path where the bullets will go. You've got three to four seconds between the time these areas are safe and unsafe - an eternity of an eternity. The rest of the screen is safe. You can stand slightly to the left of the middle shot and kill the boss by shooting upward; you might need a weapon upgrade to do this, I don't remember if you can do it with the default weapon.

We routinely goof on people over safe zones in the Development sub, but Contra gets a pass because it's Contra.

Due to the limitations of the NES, it does feel like the better games have a hobbled amount of player power. Like in a Castlevania or Umihara Kawase.

danmaku

I don't really hold these up as my ideal of perfection, either. Dangun Feveron is much closer to that. Games like DeathSmiles would be better with a bigger hit box and if they ditched the suicide bullet shotgun bukkake.

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh yeah that boss.

People give that thing a pass because he's such a short part of the game. His "safe spot" isn't even that bad since up until you destroy both arms, he's shooting aimed shots directly at you from uncomfortably close. By the time he's left to his static mouth spread, he's usually being finished off.

That and Contra 1 isn't really about the bosses. There's only a few of them, they're short, the rest of them are better, and they're not the main course. It's all about the running and gunning. Didn't become a boss focused series till at least 3.

Dangun is indeed god tho

[BIL]

Yeah, the arms' aimed shots aren't rocket science, but they're a substantial enough threat to illustrate a fundamental principle of 2D action: bullet herding. You can quite easily trap yourself by scurrying/hopping around at random, as indeed noobs are wont to. Cue "wahhh its impossible." Target prioritisation, too. You can't speedkill the head with even the strongest weapons before the arms start sniping you, and they're persistent; much better to deal with them first by leading their shots while returning fire, then finish off the core. Hey... now you're playing for real! GJ noobs keep it up! :O

Would be improved with shooting zakos spawning from both sides (would be rad if you could be forced into jumping a bullet with the flails whipping about), but it more than acquits itself as is. As good ol Dave Mustaine said, take out the organs then cut off the head.

Oh lmao! some crusty dillhole even did a peashooteR run where he moseys back and forth to draw the arms' fire before they can cave his fuck in from above!

Animated GIF 4.5mb: "THE HEAT INSIDE THE FIRE / TO MAKE THE END OF BATTLE"

Spoiler

Metal Slug 3's st2 boss/phase 1 The Monoeyes always reminds me of this fight and vice-versa, with the emphasis on herding and the deadly risk attached to an errant jump - intensified by both games' lack of height select.

For a really shitty Contra safespot, see Hard Corps' research facility (st2b) boss. Get in lower-right corner and hold up/left+shoot, job done. I feel so bad for the fuck, I make a point of never doing this. Peruse the funtime sidescrolling shack or MD thread and you will see much stern criticism of such things :O

---

Omake I: That is indeed an early example of the Multi-Sprite Madness™ that'd become a Konami/Treasure calling card in the subsequent gen! Could the Flying Ballbags Stage from Gradius have been its earliest vector?!

Omake II:

Spoiler

Omake III: God have mercy, the comments section on that speedrun video is Turbo AIDS. 3:

[Squire Grooktook]

Awakening the fury of Youtube is an unpredictable thing. I've only come close once, as the like/dislike ratio attests.

"Naming a video something that has nothing to do with the title is a fucking douche move, and fuck you from alot of people."

Oh yeah, this one got strangely unpopular as well, after I uploaded it on a whim.

[BIL]

Sometimes I'm tempted to spend a while communicating exclusively in c/p'd YT comments and see if anyone notices. This one could go down a treat in the 1CC thread.

[Squire Grooktook]

Quailty screen capped dialogues are also a hobby of mine.

[BIL]

Ah yes, I saved that one when you posted it recently.

[Sumez]

edit: responded to an old post, thought I was on the last page

[BryanM]

Perhaps the internet just doesn't like Mother very much >0_o)>

edit: responded to an old post, thought I was on the last page

It's okay!

I'm sure all those guys are still around and still care about Kid Icarus.

You'll get a response, though you'll have to wait a short while.

[Sumez]

It was about that guy's comparison to Mega Man though, which I thought was completely off the wall.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I was snorting at that when this was first bumped.

[BryanM]

It was about that guy's comparison to Mega Man though, which I thought was completely off the wall.

Three days is "old" to you?!!!!!

[orange808]

lmao

First of all, Mega Man is a trial and error and memorization chore. Kid Icarus makes me learn a couple places where I need to push left after I fall off a ladder. The rest is pure reflexes.

Mega Man's dev team didn't bother to think about how many sprites their design required from the NES. In the end, they are happy to brute force their design onto the screen--without any consideration of how it feels to play a game that chugs along. A testament to the folly of the waterfall.

Also, Kid Icarus is easy if you have skills--even when you ignore the powerups. Play through Area 4 of Zanac with no powerups if you want a challenge.

[Sumez]

Dude, did you even play Mega Man? They aren't really that difficult games, and there's very little trial and error in them, though I'd admit a lot of the robot masters typically are.
Hell, Mega Man 2 is typically the most popular game, and that one is by FAR the easiest in the series. Without even taking the "normal mode" that was added in the western release into account. It makes the game possible for anyone to run through with very little effort.
I have never found them the least bit frustrating, definitely not even close to what Kid Icarus has to offer. Kid Icarus is not even poorly paced and punishing, it's also weirdly convoluted. Meanwhile the Mega Man games are all incredibly intuitive.

Three days is "old" to you?!!!!!

Not so much the age as my reponse looking ridiculously confusing following BILs post above mine.

[orange808]

Dude, did you even play Mega Man? They aren't really that difficult games, and there's very little trial and error in them, though I'd admit a lot of the robot masters typically are.
Hell, Mega Man 2 is typically the most popular game, and that one is by FAR the easiest in the series. Without even taking the "normal mode" that was added in the western release into account. It makes the game possible for anyone to run through with very little effort.
I have never found them the least bit frustrating, definitely not even close to what Kid Icarus has to offer. Kid Icarus is not even poorly paced and punishing, it's also weirdly convoluted. Meanwhile the Mega Man games are all incredibly intuitive.

Three days is "old" to you?!!!!!

Not so much the age as my reponse looking ridiculously confusing following BILs post above mine.

Did I play it? lmao Because the day I decided to join your forum was the first day of my gaming life.. right?

Sure. Mega Man has an intuitive interface and a straightforward style. FWIW, I turned on Kid Icarus and ran through it the other night for old times sake. It's still an easy run through and it's not punishing; it's just platforming. It also doesn't spend the entire game taunting me about the fact that I can't shoot up and I can't duck. Like I said, if you the skills, Kid Icarus is simple jump, dodge, and shoot.

Kid Icarus has awful bosses. So, the joy of the game is the platforming. Hats off to Mega Man for producing much more interesting boss fights--that's a plus.

I like the Duck Tales games for many of the same reasons I like Kid Icarus. It gives me the tools to take on anything that pops up and rarely makes me die and "remember next time". I die because I fucked up--versus dying to memorize the stage. There also isn't a ton of slowdown. Go ahead and toss Zanac on that catagory as well.

There are certainly worse offenders for convoluted trial and error. The Immortal comes to mind.

In the slowdown catagory, I would have to move to the SNES to find games that annoy me more. To Mega Man's credit, it doesn't "fix" slowdown with awful flicker. The only thing worse than slowdown is death by invisible bullet. There is no excuse because Zanac manages flicker just fine.

Anyhow, I like Mega Man 3 the best. It got the balance right for me.

I've played an unhealthy amount of NES, by the way.

[Sumez]

Mega Man games DO have a ton of flicker. Flickering isn't intended to fix slowdown (if anything, not doing it is cheaper, CPU wise), but the 8 sprites on a scanline limit that the NES has. Also, a lot of the games have a ton of slowdown. It got better in the later installments though - 3 is really bad in this regard.

Apart from that though, I agree, 3 is definitely in the top. That and 4 are my two favourites of the entire series, X games included. Such masterfully designed games.

[orange808]

Mega Man games DO have a ton of flicker. Flickering isn't intended to fix slowdown (if anything, not doing it is cheaper, CPU wise), but the 8 sprites on a scanline limit that the NES has. Also, a lot of the games have a ton of slowdown. It got better in the later installments though - 3 is really bad in this regard.

Apart from that though, I agree, 3 is definitely in the top. That and 4 are my two favourites of the entire series, X games included. Such masterfully designed games.

Makes sense. The Commodore 64 behaved in a similar fashion. Slowdown was an optimization issue with my code; the hardware sprites were essentially free.

[BryanM]

A really good example of NES slowdown is Kid Icarus early stage 1-1 - four eyeballs, four demonettes, Pit, and a reaper onscreen at once will make her crawl.

A really good example of NES flicker is Dragon Warrior 3. Get a full party of four people and line them up horizontally to an NPC, and it flickers like mad. Each person is made up of 2 sprites, after all. Usually this comes with no slowdown if it's just five.

The limitations of the NES are maddening (the palette is total garbage. Just garbage. I will curse the NES palette and the hippy on drugs who decided it until the day I die) but also gives it a lot of character.