Best DS model at this point?

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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Exidna wrote:Though I knew that the original SP had a reflective screen, it has been years since I've seen one in person - probably not since they were first released.
Would it be worthwhile to pick up an SP for outdoor use, or does it just always have that dim, desaturated look?
Totally worth it (I played FFTA today in a garden), HOWEVER under very particular circumstances it has one disadvantage: if you, say, travel on the train, sitting yourself lit brightly from the side, the reflection of your face will be more visible than what's being displayed. This really was an issue for me once (on the bus).
The flicker that interlacing brings to the table is more visible in sunlight, but it's obviously not as strobbing as it would be on a CRT (where I only find it a problem when game's not deflickered, see early PS2 games and numerous Wii titles).
In other words, nothing is likely to look better in daylight, although I haven't seen GB(C) games on a real GBC. Speaking of which...
Exidna wrote:It's a real shame that Nintendo dropped the GBA slot from the newer DS models and/or the 3DS, because I really would like one of those newer brighter backlit displays, and to have one system which can play their entire catalog of handheld games.
I'd like to revisit the DS Castlevania titles (still have my games, though not a system for them) and DSi XL's are still available new, and at reasonable prices. (a DSi XL is the largest screen for DS games, outside of emulation)
Personally I don't find the low pixel density of any of the the XL screens to be a problem, and would prefer those over the other models.
Since the resolution is the same, it's not like you have scaling artifacts on the larger display. The image is just as sharp.
GBA slot was only worth that much to begin with: no GB(C) software support and no LAN, no hum. Some GBA games offer netplay with just one cart, so the likes of Bomberman Tournament were only half-good on a DS.
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Exidna
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Exidna »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Exidna wrote:Though I knew that the original SP had a reflective screen, it has been years since I've seen one in person - probably not since they were first released.
Would it be worthwhile to pick up an SP for outdoor use, or does it just always have that dim, desaturated look?
Totally worth it (I played FFTA today in a garden), HOWEVER under very particular circumstances it has one disadvantage: if you, say, travel on the train, sitting yourself lit brightly from the side, the reflection of your face will be more visible than what's being displayed. This really was an issue for me once (on the bus).
The flicker that interlacing brings to the table is more visible in sunlight, but it's obviously not as strobbing as it would be on a CRT (where I only find it a problem when game's not deflickered, see early PS2 games and numerous Wii titles).
In other words, nothing is likely to look better in daylight, although I haven't seen GB(C) games on a real GBC. Speaking of which...
That does sound good, though it also sounds like there are quite a few limitations.
Perhaps I should pick up an inexpensive beaten-up system instead of seeking out an as-new model right away.

I wonder if a matte screen protector might help, or if it would ruin the benefits of the reflective screen.
Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Exidna wrote:It's a real shame that Nintendo dropped the GBA slot from the newer DS models and/or the 3DS, because I really would like one of those newer brighter backlit displays, and to have one system which can play their entire catalog of handheld games.
I'd like to revisit the DS Castlevania titles (still have my games, though not a system for them) and DSi XL's are still available new, and at reasonable prices. (a DSi XL is the largest screen for DS games, outside of emulation)
Personally I don't find the low pixel density of any of the the XL screens to be a problem, and would prefer those over the other models.
Since the resolution is the same, it's not like you have scaling artifacts on the larger display. The image is just as sharp.
GBA slot was only worth that much to begin with: no GB(C) software support and no LAN, no hum. Some GBA games offer netplay with just one cart, so the likes of Bomberman Tournament were only half-good on a DS.
Ah, I forgot that it was only GBA and not all Gameboy systems. Still, even having access to the GBA library in addition to the DS/3DS on a N3DS XL would be great.
I don't like this recent trend of companies re-selling you games that you have already bought, because they left out or removed backwards compatibility.
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Einzelherz wrote:FWIW I'm fairly certain that the GBC, GBA, and GBA SP1 screens are all nearly identical (save for size between the generations).
Are they? I read Oracle of Ages/Seasons display brighter colours on GBA to compensate for its darker screen (hard to prove for me, but I guess it means older GBC titles look darker on the first GBA).
Exidna wrote:Perhaps I should pick up an inexpensive beaten-up system instead of seeking out an as-new model right away.
Early SP seems very durable to me. L&R are the obvious weak spot, but I believe it takes the most reckless mishandling to do them any harm.
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wyatt8740
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by wyatt8740 »

Einzelherz wrote:FWIW I'm fairly certain that the GBC, GBA, and GBA SP1 screens are all nearly identical (save for size between the generations). If you use any of them in good sunlight, they all look pretty great.

And to answer the OP's question, my vote is on the DS Lite.
Yeah, reflective beats transflective on clarity in sunlight... but I consider transflective a good happy medium.

Although I've noticed in VERY bright sunlight that it looks like my SP and original GBA are interlaced or something... I can see lines moving down the screen. No idea why that is unless it actually is interlaced.

If anyone wants an opinion on <insert handheld nintendo console here>, I own every one except the Game & Watch line, the Game Boy Micro, and the japan-only Game Boy Light (GB pocket with a wristwatch-style lit screen). I'd be happy to share my highly opinionated opinions.

And yeah, when I broke my backlit SP, to restore my collection, I bought a beat-up, extremely brittle backlit system, and swapped the case of the broken SP onto it to get a working one.
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Einzelherz
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Einzelherz »

wyatt8740 wrote:
If anyone wants an opinion on <insert handheld nintendo console here>, I own every one except the Game & Watch line, the Game Boy Micro, and the japan-only Game Boy Light (GB pocket with a wristwatch-style lit screen). I'd be happy to share my highly opinionated opinions.
I know the problem:

Image

Not shown: pink GBC and non pinks.
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wyatt8740
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by wyatt8740 »

Exidna wrote:
wyatt8740 wrote:The GBA SP original model (the front lit one) was a reflective screen, meaning that no light would pass through the panel, only light striking it would ever impact visibility. The GBA SP revised (backlit) model ONLY makes visibility different based on light passing through the LCD - it does not reflect light.
Though I knew that the original SP had a reflective screen, it has been years since I've seen one in person - probably not since they were first released.
Would it be worthwhile to pick up an SP for outdoor use, or does it just always have that dim, desaturated look?
I can't say that I've really been a fan of color screens that were not backlit, but I'm not sure that I've tried comparing them outdoors on a sunny day.
Yeah, I think it's worth it to have an original SP for bright days / sunlit rooms. It really doesn't look 'washed out' - it looks how it was intended. If anything, I'd claim the backlit GBA SP is overly vivid. Make no mistake, I love the backlit GBA - but I think the original DS looks closer to how the GBA was intended to look in daylight if you're playing at night than a backlit SP does.

If you want the vividness, it won't _QUITE_ reach the levels of a backlit SP when you're playing in sunlight, but it will look awesome nonetheless.
One complaint that I sometimes have - on the VERY BRIGHTEST of days, or in the light of something insanely bright like a spotlight, you will find interlacing to be noticeable on the GBA if you move it a lot while you play. If you keep it relatively steady, it's no big deal though, and in normal intense light it will not be visible.

I'd say it's worth it, especially when they can be had for $30 or less at used game stores, and probably ebay as well. If you want that washed out look in darker areas, I'd go for an original DS, though remember they won't play GB/GBC games like the SP will - only GBA games.

a beat up model does fine, just be sure that the buttons (particularly L and R) are still in working order. I have seen quite a few SP's with failed L/R buttons. You can always get a new tact switch if you want to replace them, though...
Exidna wrote:Most comparisons I've seen online only show the two SP models indoors in a dim room, rather than outside.
Photos like this one are just as I remember the Micro screen looking (low contrast, low saturation, with smeary LCD motion) and how I remember reflective color LCDs to look - but that is indoors.

Yeah, I think the 'responsiveness' of the NDS screen is a bit better than the micro. It's definitely better contrast. Though I haven't used a micro in many a year because I was younger than 18 when they were being sold and didn't have money anyway.

The saturation on reflective LCD's in the SP's is not at backlit SP levels, but better than you'd expect if you play in sunlight and much better than playing with a frontlight in the dark. The transflective has very nice saturation, though still not quite as saturated as the backlit GBA SP or the DS lite, both of which I consider 'oversaturated' somewhat.
Exidna wrote:It's a real shame that Nintendo dropped the GBA slot from the newer DS models and/or the 3DS, because I really would like one of those newer brighter backlit displays, and to have one system which can play their entire catalog of handheld games.
I'd like to revisit the DS Castlevania titles (still have my games, though not a system for them) and DSi XL's are still available new, and at reasonable prices. (a DSi XL is the largest screen for DS games, outside of emulation)
Personally I don't find the low pixel density of any of the the XL screens to be a problem, and would prefer those over the other models.
Since the resolution is the same, it's not like you have scaling artifacts on the larger display. The image is just as sharp.
Never had anything newer than my original DS myself, though I spent a lot of time playing a friend's lite, so I can claim to know how they look by comparison. When I was younger, hands down I would have taken the 'poppy bright' backlit over my frontlit. Now, however, I think they look like those TV's you see for sale in stores - incorrectly calibrated for the 'WOW' factor that the vivid colors give, to make a sale (I still like my backlit and use it on occasion, but I'm not quite as fond of it anymore, besides that my backlit SP is a pikachu edition one).

I remain absolutely convinced that the original DS is the best model of DS, and I personally have both a backlit and frontlit SP because they are both good in different situations and both have pro's and cons.
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wyatt8740
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by wyatt8740 »

Update. I have some comparison photos for you!
I still need to take one in sunlight, but it's midnight here. I'll update later.

Click the image to get the full-size.
Frontlit SP:
Image

Transflective NDS:
Image

Backlit SP:
Image
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by mehguy »

Dont buy a ds lite. the hinge will break. every person i know that has a ds lite has their hinges broken. If you want the most durable ds, buy the original.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

My DS lite's hinge didn't break.

Then again, I did get water between the two lower screens when trying to wipe some fingerprints, LOLZ. That's been sitting aside for a year now, waiting to be cleaned and reassembled.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by wyatt8740 »

Alright, here's some sunlight images. Forgot to do the DS, guess that'll come tomorrow.

Also, couldn't get a great angle with this camera. It looks a bit clearer than this in real life. At the time it didn't occur to me to swap the positions of the backlit and frontlit SP.

one last thing: the red SP is backlit. I swapped the backlit screen and main board out of another SP.
Click the images for the full size.
Image
Image
Image
Image

I SWEAR both SP's are turned on! THAT's quite the difference.
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Einzelherz
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Einzelherz »

Ed Oscuro wrote:My DS lite's hinge didn't break.

Then again, I did get water between the two lower screens when trying to wipe some fingerprints, LOLZ. That's been sitting aside for a year now, waiting to be cleaned and reassembled.
Neither did mine and it saw quite a lot of play. But I also keep it in a case and don't abuse my portables.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Exidna »

Thanks for the comparison photos.
It's basically what I expected: usable in sunlight, though still not a great image. (dull/washed-out)
But of course a whole lot better than a backlit screen, which you can't see at all.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by BazookaBen »

Exidna wrote:Thanks for the comparison photos.
It's basically what I expected: usable in sunlight, though still not a great image. (dull/washed-out)
It's not too dull and washed out if you get the right angle. Basically, you have to get sunlight shining on the screen, but you don't want a reflection of the sky off the plastic on top of the screen.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by o.pwuaioc »

mehguy wrote:Dont buy a ds lite. the hinge will break. every person i know that has a ds lite has their hinges broken. If you want the most durable ds, buy the original.
Mine isn't broken. Then again, I never play the damn thing. Maybe it's time to sell.
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wyatt8740
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by wyatt8740 »

Exidna wrote:Thanks for the comparison photos.
It's basically what I expected: usable in sunlight, though still not a great image. (dull/washed-out)
But of course a whole lot better than a backlit screen, which you can't see at all.
I swear to you it is not that dull or washed out in person. The camera was screwy.
BazookaBen wrote:
Exidna wrote:Thanks for the comparison photos.
It's basically what I expected: usable in sunlight, though still not a great image. (dull/washed-out)
It's not too dull and washed out if you get the right angle. Basically, you have to get sunlight shining on the screen, but you don't want a reflection of the sky off the plastic on top of the screen.
The sky reflection is more noticeable in the camera as well because it tried to focus on the reflection.
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Original SP sunlit, disabled frontlighting.

Image

I think the blurred lines are due to interlacing, it looks sharper in real time (if crawling a bit).
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Sorry for the bump.

I think a New 3DS with dual-IPS screens is the definitive model for DS, DSiWare and 3DS games. Longer battery life for DS and DSiWare games compared to the DS/DS Lite/DSi models, IPS screens for more accurate color reproduction and wider viewing angles, circle pad for games like Super Mario 64 DS and Diddy Kong Racing DS which controlled terribly with the D-Pad, a more customizable menu for DSiWare than the DSi, recorded statistics of playtime for DS/DSiWare on the 3DS's Play Journal, etc. You can hold Start + Select to boot DS and DSiWare in 1:1 resolution for crisp pixel goodness. The 3DS even has GBA hardware with the DS backwards-compatibility, so you can run GBA games natively on the New 3DS!

You can also opt for the New 3DS XL, which has a larger screen and even longer battery life than the standard New 3DS, at the expense of slightly less portability and PPI.

For GBA games, the AGS-101 (SP or modded GBA) with glass screens installed and the GameBoy Interface ULL are the definitive ways of playing GameBoy Advance games.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Guspaz »

The solution is obvious: carry both an AGS-001 and AGS-101 with you wherever you go :P
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by speedlolita »

Picked up a "dark brown" NOS NTSC-J DSi LL last year on eBay for £45. Dual IPS displays make DS games look mint compared to on 3DS where the image scales very poorly.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ikaruga11 »

speedlolita wrote:3DS where the image scales very poorly.
Start + Select gives you 1:1 resolution. DS games also have a higher PPI on the New 3DS and even the New 3DS XL compared to the DSi XL.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by speedlolita »

GeneraLight wrote:
speedlolita wrote:3DS where the image scales very poorly.
Start + Select gives you 1:1 resolution. DS games also have a higher PPI on the New 3DS and even the New 3DS XL compared to the DSi XL.
I'm well aware of the 1:1 scaling. My DSi LL image looks way better than 1:1 on a 3DS.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ikaruga11 »

speedlolita wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
speedlolita wrote:3DS where the image scales very poorly.
Start + Select gives you 1:1 resolution. DS games also have a higher PPI on the New 3DS and even the New 3DS XL compared to the DSi XL.
I'm well aware of the 1:1 scaling. My DSi LL image looks way better than 1:1 on a 3DS.
:roll:
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Einzelherz »

GeneraLight wrote:
speedlolita wrote:
GeneraLight wrote: Start + Select gives you 1:1 resolution. DS games also have a higher PPI on the New 3DS and even the New 3DS XL compared to the DSi XL.
I'm well aware of the 1:1 scaling. My DSi LL image looks way better than 1:1 on a 3DS.
:roll:
Why are you derisively rolling your eyes? He's 100% correct. You know PPI is a pretty useless stat, right?
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Einzelherz wrote:Why are you derisively rolling your eyes? He's 100% correct. You know PPI is a pretty useless stat, right?
He's wrong. PPI does matter, but not to him apparently.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by speedlolita »

GeneraLight wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:Why are you derisively rolling your eyes? He's 100% correct. You know PPI is a pretty useless stat, right?
He's wrong. PPI does matter, but not to him apparently.
Diminishing returns. Of course PPI matters but the image looks far more natural on the DSi LL. For comparison sake I took a few pics. And yes, I know that I have a New 3DS and not a New 3DS XL - it doesn't really matter as a representation of wasted screen real estate.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ikaruga11 »

The N3DS looks better and you're blind as fuck if you honestly think the DSi XL looks better.
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by speedlolita »

GeneraLight wrote:The N3DS looks better and you're blind as fuck if you honestly think the DSi XL looks better.
:roll:
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Ikaruga11 »

speedlolita wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:The N3DS looks better and you're blind as fuck if you honestly think the DSi XL looks better.
:roll:
:roll:
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by bobrocks95 »

PPI doesn't matter as much to everyone as it apparently does to you. I'd much rather play DS games on my DSi XL than with 1:1 mapping on my 3DS XL.

When I can't make out individual pixels at a comfortable viewing distance is when I stop caring (and I can't on my DSi).
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Re: Best DS model at this point?

Post by Guspaz »

Having a DSi XL and a 3DS XL, and having had a 3DS and DS Lite, I kind of feel the pixels on the DSi XL are too large... But that all the other options are too small. It'd be nice to have something in between. Oh well.
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