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[Cagar]

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[Dracuify]

Voted for yes, i can't stand it It made 2-all novice a cakewalk (granted 2alling novice would be a cakewalk for pros anyway). I'd personally like it better to remove it completely or make autobomb cost all of your bombs like in sdoj.

[hail good sir]

i think bomb and power compliment each other nicely and are fine, strong doesn't really have a place in the game to me though and ruins the balance. but of course you can always just not use it. so i think bomb style with auto bombs is fine, since you make sacrifices - power style is a versatile beast in the first loop.

[monouchi]

Absolutely, DFK 1.0 is glorius.

[BulletMagnet]

Absolutely, DFK 1.0 is glorius.

I was always surprised that Cave never offered any of DFK's earlier revisions as DLC, especially when they went to the trouble of making Futari's "1.01" a pre-order bonus, when that one is (IIRC) considered roundly inferior in most respects to Futari 1.5...as far as autobomb is concerned, I always rather liked how Akai Katana handled it, where spare bombs could still save you if you screwed up, but it was always better to bomb manually at the right time.

As others have said, "Power" style kind of lets you feel how DFK plays without autobomb (and Black Label lets you toggle it on and off), though I'd be curious to feel how 1.0 was balanced before making any sort of final judgment on the matter.

[monouchi]

Absolutely, DFK 1.0 is glorius.

I was always surprised that Cave never offered any of DFK's earlier revisions as DLC, especially when they went to the trouble of making Futari's "1.01" a pre-order bonus, when that one is (IIRC) considered roundly inferior in most respects to Futari 1.5...as far as autobomb is concerned, I always rather liked how Akai Katana handled it, where spare bombs could still save you if you screwed up, but it was always better to bomb manually at the right time.

As others have said, "Power" style kind of lets you feel how DFK plays without autobomb (and Black Label lets you toggle it on and off), though I'd be curious to feel how 1.0 was balanced before making any sort of final judgment on the matter.

Agreed, it would be nice of them to make a 1.0 DLC.

[Shepardus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only thing 1.0 has over 1.5 is various scoring related bugs and obvious gameplay balancing errors. Version 1.5 is similar to a bug fix patch, and there is no reason to go back to the earlier one. Well, except that auto bomb thing...

1.0 also doesn't have the Type B helicopter, so as far as I'm concerned it's not even a Dodonpachi game.

[Emuser]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enfng4LLwz4

unlocking Type B and Strong style on 1.0, skip to 1:30.

[Shepardus]

I stand corrected then, DOJ's the only DDP that's not a DDP then. I misremembered and thought it was 1.5 where you had to enter the codes.

Someone ought to correct the Wikipedia article too

[Skykid]

Unfortunately I have to say yes; and by unfortunately I mean I appreciate DFK for what it is, but it's a misguided project in many respects.

I'd definitely alter the scoring system to something less overarching and finnicky were it on offer, too.

[AxelMill]

I did vote for no autobomb, but my "answer" is actually "Make it an option you stupid idiots".

[Despatche]

As a resource, autobomb is a very specific kind of difficulty outside of the actual level design: how many mistakes are you allowed to make? Resource spamming the whole way down isn't much of a clear, is it? Without autobomb, the game itself would be exactly the same, except you would be encouraged to use your much better full bombs.

[Vludi]

The bullet-cancel is more annoying than the autobombs for me.

[Despatche]

Completely agreed. Right there is your game design problem, because hypers are very much something you're supposed to be using in skillful play, not just a resource. DOJ already did it right, there was no need to make hypers so ridiculous. Autobomb already fixes the problem of being too intimidating.

[Van_Artic]

just play power style ya pussies~

[Skykid]

But hypers are score building tools. What's irritating about autobomb is that it makes you slack because you know subconsciously that there's no instant death. That makes scoring equally irritating because you get your score buttfucked by a security blanket.

I like 1.5 for what it is, and the scoring is definitely... Unique. But it's a bit oddball overall and doesn't sit quite right for scoring or survival.

[Van_Artic]

But hypers are score building tools. What's irritating about autobomb is that it makes you slack because you know subconsciously that there's no instant death. That makes scoring equally irritating because you get your score buttfucked by a security blanket.

at least autobombs and deaths do the same thing to your chain regardless

[Despatche]

If you let something like autobomb kill your score like that again and again, you've got bigger problems.

[CStarFlare]

Skykid's right, the knowledge that the game will always pull your ass out of the fire encourages a more casual mindset. Score is there, but part of the rush of scoring for me is doing so while surviving. So when survival is a given, scoring had better be fantastically fun (see: Harmful Park) and chaining doesn't qualify in my eyes.

Power Style is the right answer unless you just want to shoot for a 2-ALL that you can tackle in a week.

[Cagar]

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[Despatche]

It encourages a casual mindset to actual casuals, sure, and they're the ones who need it. This community should know better than to let something as silly as autobomb take them away from the game like that. It's not about world record performance or whatever, autobomb is such a basic thing to watch out for.

"chaining" means a lot of different things. Daifukkatsu isn't really like the other games, because it's more about all the crazy stuff you do rather than just chaining. There are a few spots you need to watch for, but the actual chaining ends up more like Guwange or Mountain of Faith in terms of strictness.
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We all know this thread was made because you were amazingly disappointed with autobombing through the game like a total casual, don't lie.

As stated above a million times, the real problem is hypers. Strangely, people feel the need to apologize for hypers and blame autobomb instead, because it's easier.

[Cagar]

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[davyK]

I'm of a fairly low skill level (1.5 Futari Original - level 4 on 1 credit + level 4 boss Futari BL Original on 1 credit) but I don't like auto-bombing in any game.

It's in Futari's novice mode and it would be a much better if there was an option to disable it - thus providing a stepping stone between novice which is far too easy with auto-bombing and 1.5

It's also in Raiden III's training difficulty level - but even I could 1CC that without it so it's pretty redundant.

Auto bombing puts me off in DDP:Res too (I play the 360 version). I'm happy enough for it be there as a training harness - but make it optional. It feels cheap. The fact that is is selectable in BL indicates that even Cave aren't sure about it.

[Cagar]

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[davyK]

I'm of a fairly low skill level (1.5 Futari Original - level 4 on 1 credit + level 4 boss Futari BL Original on 1 credit) but I don't like auto-bombing in any game.

It's in Futari's novice mode and it would be a much better if there was an option to disable it - thus providing a stepping stone between novice which is far too easy with auto-bombing and 1.5

It's also in Raiden III's training difficulty level - but even I could 1CC that without it so it's pretty redundant.

Auto bombing puts me off in DDP:Res too (I play the 360 version). I'm happy enough for it be there as a training harness - but make it optional. It feels cheap. The fact that is is selectable in BL indicates that even Cave aren't sure about it.

But in BL if you turn it off, you can use bombs as hypers. (Which not only cancel a lot of bullets, but can be cancelled off, so you basically get to clear the screen twice + the duration)

Didn't know that - haven't spent a lot of time in BL - have been playing novice and 1.5 in the main. It sounds like Cave were trying to make it more about scoring but scoring isn't fun without risk?

[Squire Grooktook]

I haven't played, but it sounds like the balance of survival tension is off.

For me, these games thrive off a constant threat of extinguishment, which is in a way separate from pure difficulty. Contra 1 might be an easy 1cc/1lc, but the knowledge that a random runner zako could wallop you in the face at any time and end your run is what keeps it exciting, fun, and infinitely replayable even if its one of the most basic and repeatable clears out there.

Take that away and make it all about scoreplay, and the game loses some of its sense of harrowing mortal combat IMO

There are some games I like a lot which give out a few too many resources to be truly tense (Kamui is very close to my heart, but the inability to die for the first few stages, even on hard, has always made the early game feel a bit limp wristed to me despite its excellent carnage), and I feel like its a flaw there. Not a deal breaker by any means, if the game is good enough though.


*edit* Another aspect that I think resource spam tends to bug me from is the fantasy/simulation aspect that I've mentioned before. Whether you're a fighter plane or a fairy, shmups are about being the speedy, fragile underdog who wins the day against overwhelming odds through speed, skill, and hyperactive energy. Such a protagonist shouldn't be able to tank a million hits IMO. That's for beefier, slower heroes. Mech-side scroller territory.

[Vally]

Hmm. Interesting discussion!

I'd also have to say yes, but I don't believe autobombing ruins the game. Especially not in Black Label where it's far more beneficial to turn it off.

While it trivialises survival, the fun for me is entirely in the scoring mechanics. I find I play a lot less for survival and tend to try squeezing score performance out of earlier levels over go for a 1-All but that's just my personal preference.

An autobomb will still destroy your score regardless so triggering = bad. If there was absolutely no detriment to bombing out then that would be a catastrophe, but I'm happy with the trade off.

[monouchi]

I play mostly survival and remember how off I felt the first time I played 1.5.
The tension was gone and it made the game a lot easier. The survival 1cc was quick to get.
It was nice to turn the auto bomb off in BL but I missed the vanilla and clean DFK compared to the mayhem in BL.

Later on I tried 1.0 at a friends place and didnt know that the auto bomb was not present, and it was a blast. Tension came back.
Yes, it has a few bugs but I prolly wont trigger those in the nearest future.

[Despatche]

tldr: the real problem is autobombs, the game is perfectly balanced around hypers. Bombs are what make the game overly easy, not hypers.

Why do you do this to yourself? This is the definition of self-harm.

Hypers eat entire patterns for half a minute or more, and you're okay with it because apparently the game sometimes seems to get too hard for anything else. Bombs are never supposed to be used and completely destroy your score, but you think autobomb breaks the game because it makes ADHD resource spam first clears easier.

I can't even blame Garegga for causing people to worship bombs, because bombs are actually useful and not-broken in that game. I know it was CAVE games giving you a million of them to cheese with that created this bizarre culture.

We need research into no-hyper, I wanna see how far this goes.

[Aldnox]

I personally despise autobomb, but some people like it.