Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Iran War. When.

2021
3
4%
2022-2025
22
31%
2026-2030
9
13%
2031-2040
6
9%
2041-2050
1
1%
Never
29
41%
 
Total votes: 70

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EmperorIng
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by EmperorIng »

I am sure Bullet and Mischief are happy with Hillary providing a 5/10* performance to contrast with Trump's 1/10 week.

I hope the rest of the folks actually paying attention ( :wink: ) got nervous chills as Hillary antagonized Russia multiple times** and advocated a policy to shoot Russian planes out of the sky in Syria. Now I am not an expert in the subject, but destroying Russian installations in the region and putting down more and more missile bases in Eastern Europe does not seem to me to be a way of deescalating tensions between two nuclear-armed nations.

*Let's be honest: it was 4/10, based entirely on style and not substance. If she wasn't attacking Trump, she offered vague non-answers to questions. Hell, Trump was even able to compliment her better than she him. If anything points out how Trump is "not a politician" that's probably it, lol.

**accusations nonetheless based off of undisclosed evidence
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MOSQUITO FIGHTER
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by MOSQUITO FIGHTER »

Same old foreign policy. Give some weapons to the Kurds and hope for the best.
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MOSQUITO FIGHTER
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by MOSQUITO FIGHTER »

I'm sure she wasn't pandering to potential wealthy campaign contributors. Sure, it was all about that Abraham Lincoln movie. Working both sides of the aisle indeed.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

As opposed to not even having a plan? Trump doesn't even agree with his VP. There's still no evidence he even has a plan, by the way.

Watching Trump's usual 70 year old child / bully act gets old, although his sycophants are even more boring. Hillary could have hit back with a lot of zingers and called to attention many more of his slips of the tongue and outright lies - but I could imagine she doesn't enjoy that personal fighting like Trump does. "Yelling around and interrupting people" is not a set of skills worth a damn for a President, contrary to Trump's opinion.

Prediction for the third debate: Trump will have the sniffles *again,* Trump will announce his crocodile tears over being mean to the Clinton family *again.*

Rather shamefully it seems none of the talking heads noticed that Trump trotted out a bundle of the anti-Clinton women - which he once pretended was something he was reluctant to do - and tried to hide behind 20-year stories to sidestep his own admission of things that happened just 11 years ago. "Locker room talk?" I don't remember people talking like that in the locker room, and this wasn't any locker room - he was sober and it was the middle of the day. Of course Billy Bush takes the fall with a suspension. The guy who said Trump "kills everything he touches" could have gone farther; don't even let Trump talk to you.

One thing is clear - people have no idea how government works. Not only should you not vote for somebody who would be like the worst boss you could imagine, but you should also remember that Trump thinks he's running for king.
MOSQUITO FIGHTER wrote:I'm sure she wasn't pandering to potential wealthy campaign contributors. Sure, it was all about that Abraham Lincoln movie. Working both sides of the aisle indeed.
You mean like explaining your tax returns by not explaining them, or telling your campaign audiences the exact opposite of what you swore under oath before Congress? Those are both things Trump has done.

There is no alternative besides straight-up dictatorship, and Trump showed a lot of his tyrannical impulses tonight. He threatened to run Clinton into prison (as if that's the President's job), asked "how stupid is America?" and looked like a rigidly dogmatic old grump with a bad tan when he said he "couldn't imagine" why we might tell innocent people to flee - in an isolated city in the middle of the desert that he wants to "sneak attack" (and presumably kill all the civilians, just like his pals the Russians).
Last edited by Ed Oscuro on Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

Agree to go to war with Russia in Syria? Even trump isn't that stupid... as $hillary would do, which she will then proceed to say if she were to do it again she'd do it differently. Here's the difference in their poor judgment - when trump fucks up, it's a tax write off or a lawsuit, or a bankruptcy. When $hillary fucks up, tens of thousands of people die. Good going, chickenhawk $hill.
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MOSQUITO FIGHTER
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by MOSQUITO FIGHTER »

How about no more war at all? Oh, wait you can't vote for that on either platform.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Bitter Almonds wrote:Agree to go to war with Russia in Syria? Even trump isn't that stupid...
No, Trump is worse than that stupid. He wants a sneak attack on Mosul, presumably so more peaceful civilians can be killed (there would be little military value in this); he wants to enter a new arms race even though the Russians are at least a generation behind us in military capabilities (and that includes the F-35); he wants more countries to have nuclear weapons; and he is happy to whitewash the joint Russian/Syrian/Iranian attack on Aleppo. You could review some of his comments here.

But, at the end of the day none of this matters if you are going to be as dogmatic as Trump and believe in Trump just because he says so, contrary to the evidence, and believe anything said against Clinton, again just because of her name.
MOSQUITO FIGHTER wrote:How about no more war at all? Oh, wait you can't vote for that on either platform.
You mean Assad is going to keep killing his opponents, because his political base is basically the Syrian version of Hussein's sectarian minority in Iraq? You should know who to point the finger at for that. (That doesn't even go back to Bush; Assad is basically a mini-me version of his father who also massacred dissidents back in the early '80s; this has been a long time coming).

But Clinton did specifically say she doesn't want to send troops in. Again, if you just want to disbelieve that because it's Clinton, I can't help you. We certainly don't know what Trump would actually do, but it's safe to say that his grasp of diplomacy is very limited, so we'd probably get war.
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

Ed Oscuro wrote:But Clinton did specifically say she doesn't want to send troops in. Again, if you just want to disbelieve that because it's Clinton, I can't help you.
Ground forces are being sent to Syria as we speak, and have been there for months. The only way Obama and co. can mince words on this talking point is by specifying that they're special forces.

In any case, this statement sure does leave a lot open to interpretation. Are we going to conduct airstrikes? Give arms to groups to do the fighting for us? Turn it into a glass parking lot?
We certainly don't know what Trump would actually do, but it's safe to say that his grasp of diplomacy is very limited, so we'd probably get war.
Well, so far he's said that he'd "bomb the shit out of ISIS" and work with Russia and to restore sovereignty to the country. Something about taking oil, too. That's more detail than we've managed to wring out of Hillary, who can't make her intentions public, otherwise she wouldn't have a single vote.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

We just believe in the awful judgment $hillary used when she approved to invade and occupy Iraq... and she's gone on the record for doubling down on assisting isreali terrorists. I mean, for fuck's sake, she praises a war criminal like kissinger and you expect us to believe the swill that she wouldn't get the US entangled in another endless quagmire that'll make her rich friends even richer?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com ... 8b4608/amp
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Trump's plan on Syria is simply to write them off for dead. Either he leaves the dirty work to the Russians, or he joins in. His talk about "bombing the hell" out of ISIS apparently means that he'd really work with the Russians, Syrians, and perhaps even his old friends the Iranians (!) who are part of that fight, which could well wipe out the nearly quarter million civilians who still may be trapped there. We know that the Russians and Syrians are bombing civilians in Aleppo and they are not focused on fighting ISIS, but Trump denies this. He also denies his running mate's judgement that Russian and Syrian bombing is continuing this crisis.

Bloviate about Clinton (because Clinton!) and the special forces all you want. The Brits have special forces in Syria. Clinton said tonight that she might use special forces in an advisory role. What this means, and what quash is incapable of admitting, is that this means supporting local forces who have a right to be there and who will occupy the territory. That doesn't require going in with a full army, certainly not enough of a presence to go in and loot whatever treasures Trump thinks we ought to be looting. Advisory troops put the essential duty to win the fight in local hands, as it should be. The supposedly capable Russian military is reduced to throwing bombs at civilians, instead of going in and carefully rooting out terrorists while protecting civilians, which advisers could help support in a careful ground offensive.

Clinton laid it out in simple terms, simple enough for even MRAs like quash to understand: Assad's regime is murderous; Putin's not much better, and yet there are some sizeable groups in the region that we could be supporting to help counteract that, like the Kurds (that naturally will require some diplomacy with Turkey and Iraq).

The Military Times lays the relevant passages out briefly enough and it does not come off well for Trump.

Trump's argument for why he's good is something you'd expect from a 6-year-old inhabiting a 70-year-old's body: But they did it too! Also, as long as I'm not cutting off people's heads, you should vote for me, because ISIS also is worse than me! What do you have to lose? It makes me wonder if he's not literally thinking about shooting Clinton on 5th Avenue. After all, that wouldn't be worse than what ISIS does.
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Xyga
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

Don't waste your time Ed, quash's definitely a sockpuppet from Russia's web brigades as they're called, his work is to always minimize the Russia/Syria/Iran side's doings, making them look like the victims, and throw every BS story his employers at the FSB could think of against the diabolic 'West'. Their propaganda apparatus has been hammering US and EU targets using people like him posting in commentaries, forums, channels, blogs, non-stop since the Ukraine crisis.
It's not even far-fetched to think he's not American, and paid for this job.

They're in despair to see Trump win, because basically the future of this war almost completely depends on it. If Trump wins they'll be able to finalize the cleansing of Syria in a matter of weeks, then they'll be on vacation skiing before the blood's clot.
It will also considerably strenghten their position against the EU which they've been trying hard to destabilize by sending masses of 'refugees', actually a mass migration managed by them, because they knew the European people would freak out and turn against their establishments by voting for far-right and euro-sceptic parties (lots of those receiving funds and support from Russia at the same time).
A collapsed EU replaced by nationalist far-right powers is Rusia's wet dream, all the pressure they've received in retaliation for the invasion of Ukraine would go, and even better they would be free to resume their enlargement plans, taking back territories lost after the collapse of the USSR.
A protectionist USA would also make their game immensely since the now many nations Europe would become much more accessible markets, no EU rules nor regulations, no longers any US ambitions in the way, easy corruption, etc. Finally!

It's just sad how easily people get caught in their propaganda, I don't expect anyone to believe me of course, I'm just stating how it is like it or not, most people are receptive to quash's lies and will never try to inform themselves about the methods of those actual web brigades.
It's so sweet to make friends with your enemy, right ?

I don't want to see Trump win because what I said is what'll happen, contrary to the USA, Europe has immensely more to lose, Russia's constant pressure and menace on us is intolerable, it's sad that we're depending on the US and assholes like the Clinton clique again, but in its current state the EU is too stupid and weak to counter them, obviously, which is why Russai's tactics are working so well.
I don't want a world war, I want us to stand firmly against that menace, there's no way we should let powers that are almost the complete antithesis of us decide our future. Better deal with the US's schemes, we're uset to it after all, than with those maniacs.
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

Notice how now everyone is an armchair expert on Syria. Where was this interest a year ago? Six months ago? Why did it take until now for anyone to even acknowledge that the war there is and has been escalating?

I'll answer that for everyone: because the mainstream press finally decided it's worth covering. Makes you wonder why they'd ramp up the narrative of Russia being an antagonist now, of all times...
Ed Oscuro wrote:We know that the Russians and Syrians are bombing civilians in Aleppo and they are not focused on fighting ISIS
We also know that our bombings in Syria aren't focused on fighting ISIS, either; at least, not in any meaningful capacity.
Clinton said tonight that she might use special forces in an advisory role.
Which we already have. Ergo, she is proposing nothing.
What this means, and what quash is incapable of admitting, is that this means supporting local forces who have a right to be there and who will occupy the territory.
Who determines this, exactly? And Christ, we've been supporting "local forces" for years now. Perhaps it's finally time to re-assess whether or not Assad is worth a war with fucking Russia?
Clinton laid it out in simple terms, simple enough for even MRAs like quash to understand: Assad's regime is murderous; Putin's not much better, and yet there are some sizeable groups in the region that we could be supporting to help counteract that, like the Kurds (that naturally will require some diplomacy with Turkey and Iraq).
Assad is definitely no friend of the US (certainly not at this point), but what are the alternatives at this point? Either we keep pushing this and risk a hell of a lot, or let him have his country back.
The Military Times lays the relevant passages out briefly enough and it does not come off well for Trump.
Yeah man, that crazy Trump guy, wanting to assault Mosul. Just get a load of this!
Clinton also expressed optimism that ISIS fighters will be forced from Iraq by the time the next commander in chief takes office in January, adding “I do think that there is a good chance that we can take Mosul” in coming weeks.
Oops.
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

Xyga wrote:Don't waste your time Ed, quash's definitely a sockpuppet from Russia's web brigades as they're called, his work is to always minimize the Russia/Syria/Iran side's doings, making them look like the victims, and throw every BS story his employers at the FSB could think of against the diabolic 'West'. Their propaganda apparatus has been hammering US and EU targets using people like him posting in commentaries, forums, channels, blogs, non-stop since the Ukraine crisis.
It's not even far-fetched to think he's not American, and paid for this job.
You know, let's roll with this for just a minute. There is always a chance the person on the other end of the keyboard isn't who you think it is, so I won't necessarily fault you for grasping at this, though I'm afraid you've missed the mark quite a bit.

I am most certainly American. I know a few people on this forum personally who can vouch for my origin and my profession.

I don't claim to speak on behalf of my employer, but seeing as my experience with being deployed in the most contested naval region in the world has undeniably changed how I see the world and the US' place in it, I think it is fair to mention this experience and use it as a backdrop for my positions.

I've seen how our posture in the South China Sea has weakened considerably for purely political reasons. I've seen how China and yes, Russia, have taken advantage of this. I realize that Russia, as much as we may not be diametrically opposed, is not necessarily an ally of the US, even if Trump gets into office.

But given that the alternative is someone who has a history of destabilizing nations for political gain, mishandled classified information and is beholden to special interests (including those who are flooding Europe with refugees, but we'll get to that in a second), the choice makes itself as far as I'm concerned.
It will also considerably strenghten their position against the EU which they've been trying hard to destabilize by sending masses of 'refugees', actually a mass migration managed by them
Please provide even one piece of evidence that supports this claim. I'll wait.

In the meantime:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... os-2016-09
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -memo.html
http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/15/leake ... influence/
A collapsed EU replaced by nationalist far-right powers is Rusia's wet dream, all the pressure they've received in retaliation for the invasion of Ukraine would go, and even better they would be free to resume their enlargement plans, taking back territories lost after the collapse of the USSR.
True, to an extent. I don't think the US would want nor allow Russia to take as they please because that'd still pose a threat to our interests, but Ukraine could easily go back to Russia if this were to happen.
I'm just stating how it is like it or not, most people are receptive to quash's lies
This is the second time you've called me a liar and the second time you've provided no evidence of it. Either you start actually arguing something and stop your posturing or this is where I start calling you names.
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Xyga
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

This is the best. You're reading that people ? What a believable avatar: a US military agent hammering pro-Russia/Assad rhetoric against his own country without being bothered by his superiors at all, spewing the same anti-west, anti-democracy, anti-EU, pro alt-right nazi shit the many Russian-hired sockpuppets like him vomit all over the internet.
And you trust him ? You speak with him like he's any normal member who came here because of his interest with shmups and games when he barely posted anything relevant to this community since he's suscribed ?

Again if you took the time to learn about these people and their methods, their arguments and the patterns they use, you'd be troubled.
I won't post any links or whatever, anyone could argue it's biased/influenced stuff, so I let people seek the answers and build their own opinion (not that I care that they'd do it nor agree with me either).

Oh quash you can invite anyone you want to vouch you're really who you pretend to be, it'll be a long way before I trust whatever story you make, and you can call me all the names you want, I don't care, I believe you are what I say so why would I argue with you? Not my problem if people here don't realize it and keep feeding you.

Not that I will spend all my time bothering you in that thread either, unlike you I have no mission to influence people on the internet, and I don't have the power to kick you out anyway.
Keep doing your job and smile, after all it's working quite well. :wink:
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

Xyga wrote:This is the best. You're reading that people ? What a believable avatar: a US military agent hammering pro-Russia/Assad rhetoric against his own country without being bothered by his superiors at all, spewing the same anti-west, anti-democracy, anti-EU, pro alt-right nazi shit the many Russian-hired sockpuppets like him vomit all over the internet.
If you knew the first thing about what's going on right now, you'd know that there are some very high ranking officials who are also against the US' role in the war in Syria, precisely because we have encouraged it from the beginning. That's not to speak of the amount of personnel total who are aware of what's going on and are fighting against it.

My superiors couldn't care less about what I or any other low level employee posts on the internet as long as it's within the bounds of the law. I realize this is hard for you to understand coming from a nanny state that wants to imprison people for their opinions, but in the US you have something called the First Amendment that prevents that from happening (though Hillary and her ilk are doing their damnedest to change that).
And you trust him ? You speak with him like he's any normal member who came here because of his interest with shmups and games when he barely posted anything relevant to this community since he's suscribed ?
Why shouldn't you trust me? I have absolutely nothing to gain from posting here besides my own satisfaction. Not just on this topic, but on any topic.

Are you seriously doubting my interest in games? This isn't the kind of thing easily feigned.
Oh quash you can invite anyone you want to vouch you're really who you pretend to be, it'll be a long way before I trust whatever story you make
I won't put anyone on the spot like that because nobody should be subjected to the internet liberal lynch mob if they don't want to be. I have no stake in a reputation here or anywhere else, so I'll say as I please.
and you can call me all the names you want, I don't care
Good. You're a brainwashed ignoramus who blindly follows whichever narrative fits what he's been told about world affairs.
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Xyga
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

^ thanks, I couldn't dream of a better post to support what I say about you. more please! :P
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

The battle cry of the ineffectual. :lol:

Dude, I wish I were a HUMINT agent. This thread would've granted me an early retirement.
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Xyga
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

If people don't realize how fake and laughably shallow your avatar is and how exactly the same as those russian propaganda sockpuppets your method/rethoric is, then they've missed most of the story and they're unfortunately very naive. Well, I too can just say what I think as I please, I bet nobody gives a crap, can't help it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

I could link my accounts on other forums going back at least eight years, but I realize that's not enough to convince you.

In any case, you're a moron, and your inability to stage anything resembling an argument is all the proof I or anyone else should need.
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Xyga
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

And I think I've pretty much nailed what you are and why you're here. Good day Sir. :wink:
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Mischief Maker »

EmperorIng wrote:I am sure Bullet and Mischief are happy with Hillary providing a 5/10* performance to contrast with Trump's 1/10 week.
The hell are you talking about? I've been unhappy ever since the primary ended!

She's a terrible person who's lying through her teeth about progressive issues while playing a dangerous game with Russia. Any good that comes out of her administration will need to be fought for tooth and nail.

What part of "lesser evil" don't you understand?
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

Xyga wrote:And I think I've pretty much nailed what you are and why you're here. Good day Sir. :wink:
The only thing you've nailed is yourself into your own coffin.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

Threats now ? yee-haa ! :P
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by EmperorIng »

Mischief Maker wrote:What part of "lesser evil" don't you understand?
It's been getting pretty hard for me to gauge the extent of the bandwagon-jumping going on for the shilldog. I've noticed the curious intellectual turn happen once the primaries concluded, from where when Sanders was still in the race, there was near-universal agreement (among us "younger folks") about the unappealing ickiness of Clinton, to an almost Soviet about-face concerning her real "progressive"/#StrongerTogether values and that attacks on her amount to nothing more than sexism, lol.

Speaking of Soviet, I hope the "tooth and nail" fighting during a Hillary presidency does not involve a titanic amount of effort to keep us from needlessly provoking conflict with Russia. That would be nice. Life would be nice.

Anecdote: My cousin, who is an up-and-coming actress in our fair city, went nearly apoplectic when my older brother let slip his thought crime that he thought both candidates were scum and that an attack on Hillary was not necessarily an endorsement of Trump. The words started flowing, dribbling, gushing out

"Whaaaat?!?"
"Maybe if you didn't just listen to Fox News' cartoon of Hillary this whole time!!!!"
"The only reason you could possibly support Trump is if you are racist, sexist, or homophobic, and he empowers you!!!!!"
"There is too much on the line now to let a vile man who treats women the way he does in the White House!!!!!!!!!!!"
"I mean are you so privileged that you think you can just not pick a side?!?!?!?!?!"

I mean shit. Fuck.* I honestly think this election has caused people to completely lose their minds. Like, there is nothing left there. Except for shouting.

Tangentially, I am starting to think already that the whole audio leak is a) completely unsurprising, and b) ultimately inconsequential
Ed Oscuro wrote:"Locker room talk?" I don't remember people talking like that in the locker room
Well not that I really disagree, the language reminds me quite a bit of the bravado my all-boys high school, or the bragging of the sexual escapades of teenagers in a Boy Scout troop.

*see if I ever back any of your kickstarter movies again, cousin
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

A good moment to reflect on history again.
Thompson wrote:That’s the real issue this time,” he said. “Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”

The argument was familiar, I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame, but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?

Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.
Voldemort wrote:Good evening my fellow Americans:

As you know, I returned last Sunday night from a trip around the world--a trip that took me to eight countries in 9 days.

The purpose of this trip was to help lay the basis for a lasting peace, once the war in Vietnam is ended. In the course of it, I also saw once again the vigorous efforts so many new nations are making to leap the centuries into the modern world.

Every time I return to the United States after such a trip, I realize how fortunate we are to live in this rich land. We have the world's most advanced industrial economy, the greatest wealth ever known to man, the fullest measure of freedom ever enjoyed by any people, anywhere.

Yet we, too, have an urgent need to modernize our institutions--and our need is no less than theirs.

We face an urban crisis, a social crisis-and at the same time, a crisis of confidence in the capacity of government to do its job.

A third of a century of centralizing power and responsibility in Washington has produced a bureaucratic monstrosity, cumbersome, unresponsive, ineffective.

A third of a century of social experiment has left us a legacy of entrenched programs that have outlived their time or outgrown their purposes.

A third of a century of unprecedented growth and change has strained our institutions, and raised serious questions about whether they are still adequate to the times.

It is no accident, therefore, that we find increasing skepticism--and not only among our young people, but among citizens everywhere--about the continuing capacity of government to master the challenges we face.

Nowhere has the failure of government been more tragically apparent than in its efforts to help the poor and especially in its system of public welfare.

TARGET: REFORMS

Since taking office, one of my first priorities has been to repair the machinery of government, to put it in shape for the 1970's. I have made many changes designed to improve the functioning of the executive branch. And I have asked Congress for a number of important structural reforms; among others, a wide-ranging postal reform, a comprehensive reform of the draft, a reform of unemployment insurance, a reform of our hunger programs, a reform of the present confusing hodge-podge of Federal grants-in-aid.

Last April 21, I sent Congress a message asking for a package of major tax reforms, including both the closing of loopholes and the removal of more than 2 million low-income families from the tax rolls altogether. I am glad that Congress is now acting on tax reform, and I hope the Congress will begin to act on the other reforms that I have requested.

The purpose of all these reforms is to eliminate unfairness; to make government more effective as well as more efficient; and to bring an end to its chronic failure to deliver the service that it promises.

My purpose tonight, however, is not to review the past record, but to present a new set of reforms--a new set of proposals--a new and drastically different approach to the way in which government cares for those in need, and to the way the responsibilities are shared between the State and the Federal Government.

I have chosen to do so in a direct report to the people because these proposals call for public decisions of the first importance; because they represent a fundamental change in the Nation's approach to one of its most pressing social problems; and because, quite deliberately, they also represent the first major reversal of the trend toward ever more centralization of government in Washington, D.C. After a third of a century of power flowing from the people and the States to Washington it is time for a New Federalism in which power, funds, and responsibility will flow from Washington to the States and to the people.

During last year's election campaign, I often made a point that touched a responsive chord wherever I traveled.

I said that this Nation became great not because of what government did for people, but because of what people did for themselves.

This new approach aims at helping the American people do more for themselves. It aims at getting everyone able to work off welfare rolls and onto payrolls.

It aims at ending the unfairness in a system that has become unfair to the welfare recipient, unfair to the working poor, and unfair to the taxpayer.

This new approach aims to make it possible for people--wherever in America they live--to receive their fair share of opportunity. It aims to ensure that people receiving aid, and who are able to work, contribute their fair share of productivity.

This new approach is embodied in a package of four measures: First, a complete replacement of the present welfare system; second, a comprehensive new job training and placement program; third, a revamping of the Office of Economic Opportunity; and fourth, a start on the sharing of Federal tax revenues with the States.

Next week in three messages to the Congress and one statement--I will spell out in detail what these measures contain. Tonight I want to explain what they mean, what they are intended to achieve, and how they are related.

WELFARE

Whether measured by the anguish of the poor themselves, or by the drastically mounting burden on the taxpayer, the present welfare system has to be judged a colossal failure.

Our States and cities find themselves sinking in a welfare quagmire, as caseloads increase, as costs escalate, and as the welfare system stagnates enterprise and perpetuates dependency.

What began on a small scale in the depression 30's has become a huge monster in the prosperous 60's. And the tragedy is not only that it is bringing States and cities to the brink of financial disaster, but also that it is failing to meet the elementary human, social, and financial needs of the poor.

It breaks up homes. It often penalizes work. It robs recipients of dignity. And it grows.

Benefit levels are grossly unequal--for a mother with three children, they range from an average of $263 a month in one State, down to an average of only $39 in another State. Now such an inequality as this is wrong; no child is "worth" more in one State than in another State. One result of this inequality is to lure thousands more into already overcrowded inner cities, as unprepared for city life as they are for city jobs.

The present system creates an incentive for desertion. In most States a family is denied welfare payments if a father is present--even though he is unable to support his family. Now, in practice, this is what often happens: A father is unable to find a job at all or one that will support his children. And so, to make the children eligible for welfare, he leaves home--and the children are denied the authority, the discipline, the love that come with having a father in the home. This is wrong.

The present system often makes it possible to receive more money on welfare than on a low-paying job. This creates an incentive not to work, and it also is unfair to the working poor. It is morally wrong for a family that is working to try to make ends meet to receive less than a family across the street on welfare. This has been bitterly resented by the man who works, and rightly so--the rewards are just the opposite of what they should be. Its effect is to draw people off payrolls and onto welfare rolls--just the opposite of what government should be doing. To put it bluntly and simply--any system which makes it more profitable for a man not to work than to work, or which encourages a man to desert his family rather than to stay with his family, is wrong and indefensible.

We cannot simply ignore the failures of welfare, or expect them to go away. In the past 8 years, 3 million more people have been added to the welfare rolls--and this in a period of low unemployment. If the present trend continues, another 4 million will join the welfare rolls by 1975. The financial cost will be crushing; and the human cost will be suffocating.

That is why tonight I, therefore, propose that we will abolish the present welfare system and that we adopt in its place a new family assistance system. Initially, this new system will cost more than welfare. But, unlike welfare, it is designed to correct the condition it deals with and, thus, to lessen the long-range burden and cost.

Under this plan, the so-called "adult categories" of aid--aid to the aged, the blind, the disabled--would be continued, and a national minimum standard for benefits would be set, with the Federal Government contributing to its cost and also sharing the cost of additional State payments above that amount.

But the program now called "Aid to Families with Dependent Children"--the program we all normally think of when we think of "welfare"--would be done away with completely. The new family assistance system I propose in its place rests essentially on these three principles: equality of treatment across the Nation, a work requirement, and a work incentive.

Its benefits would go to the working poor, as well as the nonworking; to families with dependent children headed by a father, as well as to those headed by a mother; and a basic Federal minimum would be provided, the same in every State.

What I am proposing is that the Federal Government build a foundation under the income of every American family with dependent children that cannot care for itself--and wherever in America that family may live.

For a family of four now on welfare, with no outside income, the basic Federal payment would be $1,600 a year. States could add to that amount and most States would add to it. In no case would anyone's present level of benefits be lowered. At the same time, this foundation would be one on which the family itself could build. Outside earnings would be encouraged, not discouraged. The new worker could keep the first $60 a month of outside earnings with no reduction in his benefits; and beyond that, his benefits would be reduced by only 50 cents for each dollar earned.

By the same token, a family head already employed at low wages could get a family assistance supplement; those who work would no longer be discriminated against. For example, a family of five in which the father earns $2,000 a year-which is the hard fact of life for many families in America today--would get family assistance payments of $1,260, so that they would have a total income of $3,260. A family of seven earning $3,000 a year would have its income raised to $4,360.

Thus, for the first time, the government would recognize that it has no less an obligation to the working poor than to the nonworking poor; and for the first time, benefits would be scaled in such a way that it would always pay to work.

With such incentives, most recipients who can work will want to work. This is part of the American character.

But what of the others--those who can work but choose not to?
Well, the answer is very simple. Under this proposal, everyone who accepts benefits must also accept work or training provided suitable jobs are available either locally or at some distance if transportation is provided. The only exceptions would be those unable to work and mothers of preschool children.

Even mothers of preschool children, however, would have the opportunity to work, because I am also proposing along with this a major expansion of day-care centers to make it possible for mothers to take jobs by which they can support themselves and their children.

This national floor under incomes for working or dependent families is not a "guaranteed income." Under the guaranteed income proposal, everyone would be assured a minimum income, regardless of how much he was capable of earning, regardless of what his need was, regardless of whether or not he was willing to work.

Now, during the presidential campaign last year, I opposed such a plan. I oppose it now and I will continue to oppose it, and this is the reason: A guaranteed income would undermine the incentive to work; the family assistance plan that I propose increases the incentive to work.

A guaranteed income establishes a right without any responsibilities; family assistance recognizes a need and establishes a responsibility. It provides help to those in need and, in turn, requires that those who receive help work to the extent of their capabilities. There is no reason why one person should be taxed so that another can choose to live idly.

In States that now have benefit levels above the Federal floor, family assistance would help ease the State's financial burdens. But in 20 States--those in which poverty is most widespread--the new Federal floor would be above present average benefits and would mean a leap upward for many thousands of families that cannot care for themselves.
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EmperorIng
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by EmperorIng »

Ah, now there was a president. I'm sure you and I disagree on "guaranteed income" but there's a whole lot to like in that speech. :wink:
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Mischief Maker »

Yaaay Richard Nixon! Peacemaker! Remember when he got involved in the peace negotiations in 1968? Oh wait...
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

But you're willing to support and vote for grandma nix0n.
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system11
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by system11 »

Mischief Maker wrote:
EmperorIng wrote:I am sure Bullet and Mischief are happy with Hillary providing a 5/10* performance to contrast with Trump's 1/10 week.
The hell are you talking about? I've been unhappy ever since the primary ended!

She's a terrible person who's lying through her teeth about progressive issues while playing a dangerous game with Russia. Any good that comes out of her administration will need to be fought for tooth and nail.

What part of "lesser evil" don't you understand?
Given that he's more likely to not prod Putin with pointy sticks, is Trump actually the lesser evil?
System11's random blog, with things - and stuff!
http://blog.system11.org
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trap15
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by trap15 »

Not going to get into the slap fight, but quash is indeed who he says he is. If he's not, he's a master of sneaking into unoccupied apartments at military bases, and convincing guards.
@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
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