Movies you've just watched

[Squire Grooktook]

Nah, BryanM is just a crazy person who thinks OT is shit and only marginally better than PT. He's made that very clear across many threads.

Only thing to do is point to Ghegs sig.

Also I've seen all the old Flash Gordon serials. They have some fun moments, but outside of the charming quaintness, they're not half as entertaining as what they inspired.

Akira Kurosawa anything is classic though.

[Skykid]

Mmmm every time SW comes up, I'm obligated to remind everyone the originals were not good movies.

Yes, and every time you're completely wrong and will continue to be wrong because you don't know what you're talking about.

The objective proof:

Take a New Hope. Replace all the special effects with crap, like cardboard cutouts and sock puppets instead of muppets. Is it still watchable?

Yes. Case closed.

[Leandro]

The Conjuring 2. I loved the first one and loved this one too...

[BrianC]

Mmmm every time SW comes up, I'm obligated to remind everyone the originals were not good movies.

That is why you fail.

[Zen]

Apologies if this a running joke that I am ignorant of but does BryanM really think a new hope is a bad movie?
Hey, BryanM, do you really think a new hope is a bad movie?

Empire is spectacle, meh, its ok. Jedi is unforgivable fucking shit, i'll grant you but a new hope?

Mythology brought to life for the modern age with an inspired rip-off of Holst's The Planets, Lucas (at that time) genius casting, Alec Guinness as your surrogate dad, Lightsaber Excalibur,
incest with the princess, inspired used-universe aesthetic, sound effects that were to die for.
Lucas created a living initiation ritual for the modern soulless man. That film was organic, man. It was alive! It was a door out of this fucking cube.

Perhaps, as many have pointed out, it had to be seen in a certain time, at a certain place, at certain age. Sounds like a cop-out, i'll admit but there is a lot of truth to it.
Perhaps films like the matrix had a similar affect on that generation? I cant say.

[Skykid]

A New Hope was groundbreaking not just for effects, but in the practice of commercial filmmaking editing techniques. That it's an inspired mythology and original fantasy universe that went on to in turn inspire its audience is secondary, believe me. If ANH wasn't a very well conceived and executed adventure movie with a huge amount of appeal, it would only be remembered for special effects and little else.

Empire is the best because it's the best directed, regardless of its theme. Kirschner simply did a superior job with the material.

While Jedi is the weakest it is NOT without redeeming qualities and it is NOT a "steaming pile of shit" as is so flippantly and regularly claimed.

Regarding BryanM he is simply wrong and there's not much else to it - but the one thing that always irritates me in SW conversation is that people always make assessments about the content; how dark Empire is, how shit the Ewoks are etc, when you should be looking at the directorial qualities of the films instead. Ian McDiarmid's performance in Jedi and the confrontation on the Star Destroyer is more important than whether or not you hate Ewoks, and Empire's handling of all its major themes - love, hate, betrayal, redemption, fear and realisation - is done with impeccable grace for a wacky sci-fi Boys Own comic book adventure, which is really all these are when you boil it down.

[GaijinPunch]

and Empire's handling of all its major themes - love, hate, betrayal, redemption, fear and realisation - is done with impeccable grace .

Don't forget dread.

"The longer the note, the more dread."
-Super Hans

[Zen]

Well, I cant argue your Empire and Jedi critique strictly as pieces of cinema, SkyKid. Its pretty much bang on. I guess what I saying is that, for me at least, Empire and Jedi turned A New Hope into false hope.
If left alone, A New Hope was complete. Empire was an action flick (steeped in 100% Stars Wars marinade though, i'll give it that).
Jedi's price of admission was too high for me. All it was short was for the fucking ewoks to be "all singing and all dancing", (oh wait, Yub Nub ) The "Star Wars holiday special" was strong with this one and we, as Luke, found ourselves imprisoned in it, by a Lucas gone full Palpatine. And did we/Luke really need daddy's redemption? I thought we were way past that at the end of A New Hope. Something had gone very wrong.

A lot of this is subjective on my part, I know but damn it, Lucas is no slouch when it comes to mythology. He knew what magic he was casting in A New Hope. A generation was off (for the first time in a long, long time) to find the Golden fleece. In the end, he tried to sell us teddy bears.

Oh and as for BryanM not liking A new Hope thats a bummer, man.

[EmperorIng]

Speaking of pulp, the 1980 Flash Gordon revival is a great movie, and people should watch it for prime time fantasy/sci-fi cheese.

[Volteccer_Jack]

And did we/Luke really need daddy's redemption? I thought we were way past that at the end of A New Hope. Something had gone very wrong.

We needed Luke to ultimately throw down his sword, which means someone else has to take care of all the necessary violence. Also George Lucas has daddy issues.

but the one thing that always irritates me in SW conversation is that people always make assessments about the content; how dark Empire is, how shit the Ewoks are etc, when you should be looking at the directorial qualities of the films instead. Ian McDiarmid's performance in Jedi and the confrontation on the Star Destroyer is more important than whether or not you hate Ewoks, and Empire's handling of all its major themes - love, hate, betrayal, redemption, fear and realisation - is done with impeccable grace for a wacky sci-fi Boys Own comic book adventure, which is really all these are when you boil it down.

Your language here is so vague that I can only guess at what you're trying to say. You seem to be saying that movies contain something other than their content, in direct contradiction to my understanding of English. By extension you imply that actor performances and 'directorial qualities' (whatever the FUCK that means) are not part of the content of a movie. How exactly does Empire being dark fall outside of 'directorial qualities'? Was the director unaware that he was making the movie dark? You say these major themes were "done with impeccable grace" but you don't elaborate defend or support that statement in ANY way, so I can't say anything meaningful in response except "No they bloody weren't."

Empire is the weakest of the OT, much like Two Towers and every other middle entry in a trilogy ever. The first act is over, and the third act is in the next movie, so the best possible outcome is an incomplete thought, a bunch of heroes and villains running around doing things for no reason and with no outcome. But despite being boring wastes of time, they generally manage to have an audience because the second act is the edgy one. Luke has the super-duper deep internal conflict between A) the training that he hates and bitches and moans about constantly, or B) his friends lives. And literally the only thing stopping him from picking B is two annoying old guys who he never listens to anyway (and who don't make any rational arguments against Luke's decision to begin with). This is followed by a pretty cool sword fight and a hilarious overreaction to information about the dad he's never met. Real Talk: Keanu saying "whoa" would have been a more believable reaction. Meanwhile Han and Leia do nothing they didn't do in ANH, but they still get half the movie's worth of screentime, because Harrison Ford fills seats. Lando betrays some people but immediately regrets this decision, so the only actual consequence is Han Solo getting imprisoned inside an advertisement for Return of the Jedi. And he spent the first hour of the movie like that, so who really cares? It's all filler setting up Return of the Jedi, but Jedi sets everything up all over again so it's just wasted effort.

[Squire Grooktook]

and every other middle entry in a trilogy ever...a bunch of heroes and villains running around doing things for no reason and with no outcome.

lol

Speaking of pulp, the 1980 Flash Gordon revival is a great movie, and people should watch it for prime time fantasy/sci-fi cheese.

Indeed.

That ost tho

[TransatlanticFoe]

Speaking of pulp, the 1980 Flash Gordon revival is a great movie, and people should watch it for prime time fantasy/sci-fi cheese.

The whole visual design is the cinematic version of not taking the crayons off a kid when they've finished colouring in. While that does have a certain garish charm, it had twice the budget of Star Wars but the quality of the costumes and effects ended up looking like Battlestar Galactica by comparison.

Worth it for Brian Blessed alone though.

[BryanM]

Apologies if this a running joke that I am ignorant of but does BryanM really think a new hope is a bad movie?
Hey, BryanM, do you really think a new hope is a bad movie?

A New Hope is not a bad movie. It is a bland movie.

It is a 3/5. Which means, some people might argue that it's 4/5 (people who really like it), and others a 2/5 (people who don't find anything much redeeming about it, like me. Or Alec Guinness.). Anyone who thinks it is a 5/5 is an aberration.

Star Wars is only notable because it has a first mover advantage - it was the first really big summer blockbuster that sold itself on special effects. It became a cultural phenomon because there wasn't jack shit else to do in 1977. If it was released 1990 or later, no one would give a shit about it. With a good movie, it doesn't matter what decade it comes out in. Alien will always be good.

Coca-cola is not better than Pepsi just because it got into the market first.

The people sniffing their own farts about how great and groundbreaking Star Wars was, are insane. I will now spell insane with capital letters. INSANE.

Those guys want to take all of the good and none of the bad. You know what else Star Wars is responsible for? The empty soulless summer blockbuster special effects movie. Every single Independence Day, every single Transformers, every single unnecessary $100 million Ben-Hur remake - lay it at the feet of the success of Star Wars 1: A New Retroactive Hope.

It's fine to love an average (or horrible) movie, but people go nuts over this very average thing.

Here's another bombshell: The old Teenage Mutant Brothers cartoons are not great. Nor is Family Matters. Nor is The Smurfs. Come at me bros.

Nah, BryanM is just a crazy person who thinks OT is shit and only marginally better than PT.

Incorrect, BryanM is just an intelligent, objective person who isn't moved by the peer pressure of popular opinion or nostalgia.

Also, a single point on the five point scale is not "marginally better". That's the reason we use the five point scale: each point means something firm, measurable, and real.

Flash Gordon CERTAINLY wasn't better than Empire Strikes Back.

WHAT?!?!?!

Those guys want to take all of the good and none of the bad.

peer pressure of popular opinion

These are not the tools of science and reason. They're the gremlins of a fundamentalist religion.

you don't know what you're talking about.

Perhaps I do have a point and you're simply a zealot blind to the truth or the opinions of human beings who don't think STORIES AND FILMS WERE CHANGED FOREVER all because a kid with a mullet got told what to do for three movies and waved a laser sword around. With a slack-jawed expression on his face the entire time.

Yes. Case closed.

You're a liar and you know it.

Case closed.

[Squire Grooktook]

Not a crazy person

And yet you keep using self quotes to hold entire conversations with yourself.

That's definitely a symptom of something.

Perhaps I do have a point and you're simply a zealot blind to the truth

Or maybe you just have bad taste.

Don't worry, there's certainly no crime in that. I'm sure you can still be a functioning member of society.

Though I would get that 'talking to yourself thing checked out with a doctor.

[BryanM]

Not a crazy person

And yet you keep using self quotes to hold entire conversations with yourself.

That's definitely a symptom of something.

It's called a footnote. It's easier to follow than other methods [1] such as (parenthesis).

So, a symptom of efficiency and intelligence? Thank you for the compliment Squire Grooktook. It was nice of you. Good post. A+++ would read again.

Or maybe you just have bad taste.
Though I would get that 'talking to yourself thing checked out with a doctor.

And you're a rude dick.

Good luck being a decent person in the next life. Jesus man. It's just a fucking movie.

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh, we're not allowed to make mild snarks after calling another poster a "zealot blinded to the truth" among other things? I guess I misread the tone of the convo.

Seriously though, I was just messing with you. I didn't mean anything by it. I apologize.

-

But yeah, in general most of these things come down to taste. I don't have a particular attachment to SW (there are video game stories and settings that are closer to my heart, let alone movies or literature), but I can understand why they've been enduringly popular. And no, it's not just special effects or nostalgia. I think they're far above average, at the very least a 4 on a 5 point scale, and whether or not I care too much about them is a matter of personal taste and really irrelevant to how well they've been crafted.

They're like CAVE games in that respect. They might not set your world on fire depending on what you're into, but calling any aspect of them ('cept maybe Cave's late-life pre-rendered visuals) bad on an objective level is just grasping at some feeble justification for a purely subjective (and very niche) opinion.

[Xyga]

It's all because of member berries.

[Mischief Maker]

Is this entire forum trying to troll me?

And did we/Luke really need daddy's redemption? I thought we were way past that at the end of A New Hope. Something had gone very wrong.

We needed Luke to ultimately throw down his sword, which means someone else has to take care of all the necessary violence. Also George Lucas has daddy issues.

No. That's the natural ending to the series that you could have predicted from ANH...

Spoiler

...because that's the same exact ending twist in The Hidden Fortress. Right when the heroes are captured and about to be sent to their deaths, the evil clan's general considers the righteousness of the princess against the wickedness of his own lord and saves the day by switching sides.

Empire is the weakest of the OT, much like Two Towers and every other middle entry in a trilogy ever. The first act is over, and the third act is in the next movie, so the best possible outcome is an incomplete thought, a bunch of heroes and villains running around doing things for no reason and with no outcome.

No outcome? You call a complete shift in the relationship between the characters, the nature of the conflict, and the stakes involved "no outcome?"

Luke has the super-duper deep internal conflict between A) the training that he hates and bitches and moans about constantly, or B) his friends lives. And literally the only thing stopping him from picking B is two annoying old guys who he never listens to anyway (and who don't make any rational arguments against Luke's decision to begin with).

Meanwhile Han and Leia do nothing they didn't do in ANH, but they still get half the movie's worth of screentime, because Harrison Ford fills seats. Lando betrays some people but immediately regrets this decision, so the only actual consequence is Han Solo getting imprisoned inside an advertisement for Return of the Jedi. And he spent the first hour of the movie like that, so who really cares? It's all filler setting up Return of the Jedi, but Jedi sets everything up all over again so it's just wasted effort.

Luke learns from Yoda that the Force is a much more dangerous thing than he originally thought. The seductiveness of the Dark Side is that it's the quicker, easier option, and as Luke fails, fails, and fails again at his training his growing frustration and impatience makes him that much more likely to fall, as evidenced by his vision in the cave. Obi Wan and Yoda do tell Luke that Darth Vader is torturing his friends to screw with his training and tempt him into taking shortcuts. The one thing they're leaving out, because it's probably the biggest bombshell they could possibly drop on this already erratic and reckless student, is that his father is secretly Space Hitler. (eek! Godwin's Law!)

And without ESB's whole underlying subplot of whether or not Luke will turn evil, his motivation in ROTJ to reverse that scheme and instead redeem Darth Vader makes no sense!

This is followed by a pretty cool sword fight and a hilarious overreaction to information about the dad he's never met. Real Talk: Keanu saying "whoa" would have been a more believable reaction.

You remind me of a story director Edgar Wright told about going to a midnight cemetery screening of "Suspiria" and having it ruined by an audience full of hipsters like you, snarking for the sake of snark the whole way through.

[BryanM]

And without ESB's whole underlying subplot of whether or not Luke will turn evil, his motivation in ROTJ to reverse that scheme and instead redeem Darth Vader makes no sense!

W, what was Darth Vader's motivation in saving Luke, again?

If my memory serves me, he had decapitated about 12.6 billion orphans personally with his laser sword by this point in the series. So wounded puppy dog eyes are right out. The only emotional attachment he had to Luke was the possibility of him being a tool he could use to overthrow the emperor and take his place.

This is the sort of thing that's easily swept under the rug because by this point, the audience has mild attachment to Luke from all the times he was hit in the head by a muppet. They vicariously transfer that emotion to Vader, which should not exist because Vader has not watched any of the Star Wars movies.

[Squire Grooktook]

the orphans thing was added in the prequel trilogy. Although I might point out that irl even the most hardened sociopaths often have an intense love for their children and desire to protect their well being. Blood is a terrifyingly powerful thing, which I suppose further adds to the tension of knowing your father is a monster.

But we don't see Vader personally genocide* or rape anyone in the OT. Star Wars is basically an oldschool fantasy adventure IN SPACE, with the universal archetypes adapted along with it. Darth Vader is the black knight serving the evil wizard who captured the princess. He's not beyond redemption (as far as we know) any more than any such allegorical character.

*Oh yeah, some of his superiors blew up a planet. But at that point Darth is still set up as the black knight who doesn't do much besides fight for his cause and act as a figure head.

You might say that it's the vagueness of it that makes its characters and plot universal and applicable. Attempting to read "great story telling or character depth" into it is missing the point entirely of a fast paced, pulpy and whimsical fantasy adventure with just enough of an emotional core and sense of drama to make it as exciting and cathartic to the audience as such an adventure should be.

[Zen]

A New Hope is not a bad movie. It is a bland movie.

Also, not true about Guinness. He was bullshitting to beat the band.
What would be your opinion on say, Close Encounters of third Third Kind?

Luke learns from Yoda that the Force is a much more dangerous thing than he originally thought. The seductiveness of the Dark Side is that it's the quicker, easier option, and as Luke fails, fails, and fails again at his training his growing frustration and impatience makes him that much more likely to fall, as evidenced by his vision in the cave.

But we already know of its danger from ANH. Luke's father, Obi Wan's friend, was lost to the Dark Side. Empire is like a soap opera compared to ANH pure opera and Jedi is well, Jedi. For me at least, Star Wars began and ended with A New Hope.
Also;

his father is secretly Space Hitler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

Star Wars is basically an oldschool fantasy adventure IN SPACE, with the universal archetypes adapted along with it.

There ya go. The space setting, in that year/time is of the utmost relevance (which is why I asked BryanM his opinion on Close Encounters) the design, sound and visuals were anesthetics to our doubt and the magic of John Williams cut off our link to the here and now. We were of on the great quest. Not a "made-up" one, like the other films and books of the time but the real thing.

[Squire Grooktook]

I thought we just believed that Lukes father was killed by the empire in ANH, not that he was corrupted.

Also worth pointing out, but the fantasy/quest influence can be seen even more clearly in some of the concept art, which sometimes features crowds of storm troopers wielding swords and shields like a legion of knights.

[Mischief Maker]

And without ESB's whole underlying subplot of whether or not Luke will turn evil, his motivation in ROTJ to reverse that scheme and instead redeem Darth Vader makes no sense!

W, what was Darth Vader's motivation in saving Luke, again?

If my memory serves me, he had decapitated about 12.6 billion orphans personally with his laser sword by this point in the series.

You see? It's just like I said, the awfulness of the prequels is poisoning your memory of the real movies.

Fffffffffuck the prequels! They're non-canon. They add nothing to the original trilogy, and their CG has aged poorly so there's nothing of value that remains there. In ANH Obi Wan describes (pre-Vader) Anakin Skywalker as basically the kind of hero Luke aspires to be, a good friend who Obi Wan was so impressed by, he attempted to train him to be a Jedi. Lucas changing Anakin in the prequels from a hero who fell from grace into a Damien-style bad seed from the start is an even bigger betrayal of the real movies than changing The Force into a bacterial infection.

By the time of the real movies, the once-good character of Anakin has turned into a skull-faced cyborg and has done so much evil that he thinks he's beyond redemption. But the cracks in his facade start to show even in ESB when he fails to kill Admiral Needa (CORRECTION: Admiral Piett) after the Millenium Falcon escapes. He thought he had cornered Luke into a situation where Luke would have no choice but to turn evil, but Luke picked an option Vader hadn't even considered, so later he's uncharacteristically thoughtful on the bridge of his super star destroyer. In the meeting at the bridge in ROTJ Luke further weakens Vader's resolve, as shown by him gripping the rail after Luke says, "Then my father is truly dead." At the end, like in The Hidden Fortress, Vader is considering the good his son is trying to bring out of him against the absolute evil of the emperor and the good man he'd tried to keep bottled up for twenty years finally re-emerged.

Stop watching the prequels and the "special edition" trilogy. Stop listening to hipsters for whom the highlight of the movies is the moment that stormtrooper bumps his head. People are outraged at the changes Lucas made precisely because they fuel opinions like the one you hold.

[GaijinPunch]

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh man, is that actually real? I guess even Zombie Simpsons can get a lucky laugh from time to time

[GaijinPunch]

Oh man, is that actually real? I guess even Zombie Simpsons can get a lucky laugh from time to time

Not sure, but it's awesome.

[Zen]

I thought we just believed that Lukes father was killed by the empire in ANH, not that he was corrupted.

Technically you are absolutely correct. I have had this discussion before and I feel that we knew wtf was up because of uncle lars behavior and also, Guinness' subtle acting, showed us very clearly that Obi Wan was lying but I will concede that it may be revisionism on my behalf

Fffffffffuck the prequels! They're non-canon.

Now were talkin!

[BryanM]

You see? It's just like I said, the awfulness of the prequels is poisoning your memory of the real movies.

Nah nah nah, I know we're supposed to regard the prequels as non-canon in these formal banters and I mean to cleave to such an arrangement - I am a gentleman, sir.

By "murdered orphans", that was merely my classy short hand way of pointing out that Vader is a mass-murdering asshole, considering all the mass murder he helped commit on-screen in Episode 1. (Slicing up orphans absolutely pales to the monstrosity of that.) If one sniveling son outweighs the billions of deaths at his hands, he's also a narcissistic asshole on an entirely different plane of existence.

And if he's a narcissistic asshole.. why on earth would he kill himself? Low energy. Sad!

What would be your opinion on say, Close Encounters of third Third Kind?

That I was six the last time I saw it.

I'm willing to give it a watch (I remember liking it more than SW) and give you an essay, if it's important to ya.

Technically you are absolutely correct. I have had this discussion before and I feel that we knew wtf was up because of uncle lars behavior and also, Guinness' subtle acting, showed us very clearly that Obi Wan was lying but I will concede that it may be revisionism on my behalf

Aaaah it's a retcon. Not as badly done as Leia also being related to the guy.

The whole thing gives me creepy vibes along the same lines as those people into japanese cartoons with their imaginary wives who have to be "pure", like they have to be a childhood friend for the protagonist to care about them. The whole Luke<>Vader relationship is extremely, extremely unnatural and creepy; the "they're father and son!" trope is used to plaster over that. It would make sense if they had actually met, sometime before Luke became an adult and sometime before Vader did all that mass murder.

I think it'd be much more interesting if they had just became gay for each other in a masochistic way over time. Top Gun showed how well that works.

Also, not true about Guinness.

Nah he hates SW with the fury of a thousand star systems.

[WelshMegalodon]

But the cracks in his facade start to show even in ESB when he fails to kill Admiral Needa after the Millenium Falcon escapes.

Quick nerd nitpick: Needa held the rank of Captain when he lost the Falcon, and the film is supposed to show that Vader did in fact kill him. Even if the actor's appearing to get up suggests otherwise, everything I've seen points to Needa dying in that scene.

I have had this discussion before and I feel that we knew wtf was up because of uncle lars behavior and also, Guinness' subtle acting, showed us very clearly that Obi Wan was lying but I will concede that it may be revisionism on my behalf

People attempting to "analyze" the Original Trilogy without realizing what was retconned is probably my biggest pet peeve as a Star Wars fan, after people who insist on watching them in "chronological order".

In the first movie, Vader was no one's father and Darth was actually his name. Threepio shut down at Ben's house because Anthony Daniels was extremely uncomfortable in the suit and it made sense to let him avoid wearing it whenever possible. Ben doesn't recognize Artoo because they've never met. Luke and Leia are not siblings. The whole "thousand generations" bit doesn't match up because The Phantom Menace couldn't be bothered to get the line right. Han doesn't believe in Jedi because they were implied to have been extinct for far longer than twenty years. The first Death Star didn't take twenty years to build (an issue of the Technical Journal from 1994 actually suggests a date of less than two years).

[Mischief Maker]

But the cracks in his facade start to show even in ESB when he fails to kill Admiral Needa after the Millenium Falcon escapes.

Quick nerd nitpick: Needa held the rank of Captain when he lost the Falcon, and the film is supposed to show that Vader did in fact kill him. Even if the actor's appearing to get up suggests otherwise, everything I've seen points to Needa dying in that scene.

My mistake, I meant Admiral Piett.

Of course Needa dies in the "apology accepted" scene!