Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Gered]

I picked up 2 more 20" PVM's today (I now own 3 of them!) I did a lot of tests, and decided to keep 1 and sell off the other 2.

Out of curiosity (since you're also in Toronto), what are the other 2 you're going to be selling off?

[leonk]

Found it!

To fix no OSD on PVM L2 do the following:
(with no signal feed)

- press menu
- press degauss + enter to get into service menu
- press Down arrow to move to deflection menu and select enter
- press enter to get into the Focus sub menu
- the option you want to change is HFV CONTROL

mine was set at 246. Moving it to 247 or down to 242 made the menu come back.

- press Deguass and enter together to get out of service menu

This option did not reset after I powered off the PVM. It might reset after I unplug it.

[leonk]

I picked up 2 more 20" PVM's today (I now own 3 of them!) I did a lot of tests, and decided to keep 1 and sell off the other 2.

Out of curiosity (since you're also in Toronto), what are the other 2 you're going to be selling off?

sorry. all sold.

[DanAdamKOF]

Hi, quick question, and sorry if this was covered before (I used search and didn't find anything).

Are there any converter boxes that can take in 480p HDMI and output 480i RGB, without applying a flicker filter/blur filter? I spoke with a friend who informed me that, to his knowledge, all boxes that output an interlaced signal apply a flicker filter, and this necessitates buffering a frame and applying the filter. In theory, if such a box exists without a filter, then it shouldn't lag, since the 480p HDMI signal can be converted to 480i RGB on-the-fly if there's no need to apply a filter to it. I don't want the lag from this filter, and it will also make the 480i output less sharp, which will look worse when converted to 240p vs sharply doubled lines.

My use case is playing the PS4 port of Battle Garegga and other shmups on my PVM 2950Q (and probably my candy cab once I get it delivered). I'll probably run the output of this box into an Extron RGB Interface to get 240p from it (I'm sure no HDMI->RGB boxes can output 240p directly, and the RGB interface works well for this purpose anyway). Just to be clear, PS4 cannot output in 480i, the lowest resolution that can be selected is 480p. You can run PS4 in 480i in Safe Mode but you can't do anything useful while in that mode.

Or if someone has a chain that goes HDMI 480p -> RGB 480p -> RGB 480i/240p, I'm curious to hear about it. Though my understanding is, there's no magical way to turn RGB 480p into 480i through analog means, all devices that do this buffer/digitize the signal and then output the desired resolution. If there are any devices that do this without buffering the signal I am very curious to hear about them.

Or is there an HDMI downscaler that does HDMI 480p->480i, and if so, do any not include a flicker filter?

Thanks for your time. I'm well aware that the obvious solution is to suck it up and use a LCD, but I think I'd enjoy myself more using my favorite displays to play an old classic .

[Fudoh]

I have no experience with any of the HDMI to analogue scan converters, but on the Extron VSC units (which are *the* standard for analogue HD to 15khz RGB/YUV conversions you can completely disable any filtering. The questions remains though if you really want that, especially when you're going for a 480i to 240p in another step.

Since VSC units cost next to nothing these days I would recommend to get one of those along with a cheap HDMI to VGA D/A converter ($20). Should get you pretty good results.

This said, if you're planing to use this on a regular basis, you should really look into a solution that gives you a direct 240p output from a 480p source (Emotia, UVC, Mino Genius II or iScan HD/HD+), since it's really hard to get a perfect line mapping on a 480i scan converter paired with an interface.

Extron VSC units, Emotias, UVCs and the Genius II are lag free. They work using a line buffer, not a frame buffer. The iScan HD/HD+ has a 6 or 7ms delay, which is pretty much neglectable as well.

[Guspaz]

The problem is that most of those options are either very rare or very expensive. Example: there is only one single Emotia on eBay right now, and after shipping, it's at least $200 USD. At the same time, there are a ton of VSC on eBay, starting at around $50 USD shipped.

[Fudoh]

The iScan HD/HD+ is the most affordable one at a little less than $100 for a HD and a bit above $100 for a HD+. Especially if you don't have the neccessary cabling for an Extron/Extron setup, it would likely turn out about the same.

[Narroo]

So, how the heck do you guys find this stuff? I'd like to get my hands on a reference monitor as well, god willing. There's a few TV stations near buy. I'm thinking of asking if they have anything they don't need anymore, but, I'm not sure that's sane, or how to ask.

Where do you guys get your stuff?

[BazookaBen]

Where do you guys get your stuff?

I got 3 pristine PVM's from these guys:

http://www.tekyard.com/

They're a medical equipment reseller. I found one of their listings one ebay when I did a search for "sony trinitron" within 200 miles of my zip code. Then I just gave them a call and drove over one weekend.

So yeah, look for someone like that in your region.

[bobrocks95]

Where do you guys get your stuff?

I got 3 pristine PVM's from these guys:

http://www.tekyard.com/

They're a medical equipment reseller. I found one of their listings one ebay when I did a search for "sony trinitron" within 200 miles of my zip code. The I just gave them a call and drove over one weekend.

So yeah, look for someone like that in your region.

Looks like they have warehouses in Minnesota and North Carolina. A good option for anyone near there!

[accaris]

There's a few TV stations near buy. I'm thinking of asking if they have anything they don't need anymore, but, I'm not sure that's sane, or how to ask.

Get the front desk during off-air hours and ask for the master control/operations manager, video engineer, maintenance engineer, or studio engineer. I called my local university's TV station and asked about old monitors this way. Left a message and a guy called me back. He said they dumped all their PVMs like 10 years ago to electronics recycling.

[DanAdamKOF]

Thanks for the replies so far. Fudoh do you live on this thread? Very quick

Due to how the Emotia and VSC average even-then-odd lines and not odd-then-even for 240p output, if I wanted crisp 240p output (rather than "averaged" output) I would need a setup like this if there are no image position options?

HDMI 480p -> [HDMI to RGB box] -> RGB 480p -> [Extron RGB interface] -> RGB 480p (1 line shifted) -> [Emotia or VSC] -> RGB 480i -> [Extron RGB interface] -> RGB 240p

If it can be adjusted down one line, then I should only need:
HDMI 480p (1 line shifted) -> [HDMI to RGB box] -> RGB 480p -> [Emotia or VSC] -> RGB 240p

Just want a confirmation that I'm understanding all of this correctly so far.

Again thanks all for the input, and perhaps if anyone else wants to run a PS4 on a PVM or 15khz cab they can get some help from this discussion.


As for the discussion of finding CRT, I stalked Craigslist for a while in Dallas, TX and found 2 PVM 2950Q for $40 each within a few weeks of each other. I have family who works AV for events and they said PVMs were popular for video walls many years ago, and one of my PVMs came from a (different) events AV company. I also found a Sony KV-25XBR TV (has RF, Composite + stereo, and a weird 34 pin RGB + stereo connector, it was intended for Amigas but any 15khz RGB works on it if you wire it up) for $25 in an electronics surplus store in League City, TX, not far from NASA offices. That TV is stamped with a US GOVT label, pretty neat

[Fudoh]

On the VSC units you don't need the interface in front and on the Emotias you don't need an interface behind them.

If you need that one line shift up front depends on the source. Many titles have in-game option to do that and I would honestly expect that from Garegga as well (given that M2 also converterd Futari on the 360 and here you got all the options you need).

[Narroo]

Interesting....I was looking though medical suppliers and can't find anything in the Northeast. Craigslist is also a bust, except for one guy 2 hours away from me that's selling for $500.

I'll try calling the local station and asking for an AV engineer. I have no idea how that'll turn out. Hopefully they won't hang up on me.

[Shining]

Anyone have any experience with early to mid 90's Mitsubishi consumer crt's?

[tacoguy64]

from what i've seen those mid 90s consumer mitsubishis seem pretty decent.
though they only have up to s-video inputs but they provide a good quality picture.
they also come in big sizes, i think they made a 40inch crt.

[accaris]

Anyone have any experience with early to mid 90's Mitsubishi consumer crt's?

Their CRTs were high quality. Probably on par with Panasonic. Certainly on par with Sharp and JVC. Maybe not quite on par with Trinitron, but they were invar shadow mask.

Of course folks around these parts already know about the Mitsubishi Megaview. RGB capable monitor.

[KnuckleheadFlow]

Anyone ever seen a Sony KV-2080R? I'm about to check one out, but I can't find much info about it online. Seems to be a Canadian model, late 80s, looks like a cross between a regular TV and a PVM.

[accaris]

Anyone ever seen a Sony KV-2080R? I'm about to check one out, but I can't find much info about it online. Seems to be a Canadian model, late 80s, looks like a cross between a regular TV and a PVM.

It's just an 80s Trinitron with a slick, futuristic aesthetic. There's nothing much special about it except it was fairly high quality (for the time) and has composite video output for daisy chaining sets like you'd see in an electronics store.

[KnuckleheadFlow]

Yeah I realized that once I actually saw it in person, looked more special in the photos. I was hoping it was like this 29" PVMish TV I saw on YT. I still picked it up because I'm an idiot. At least I paid significantly less for it than the asking price. I'll try to get it to take RGB, might not be a total waste. I blame the jet lag.
E: seriously what the fuck was I thinking
E2: the guy agreed to take it back, everything had this red tinge.

[Narroo]

Hm, finally found something. Someone has a 14m2u for $130. For a 14 inch monitor, that seems a bit expensive for a 14'' screen. Pretty small too. Anyone know much about the 12M2U's? There's that one guy from youtube, I guess.

[FinalBaton]

I have a PVM-1354Q, wich is almost identical to the 14m2u (the 14m2U is the successor to the 1354q and apparently thaey barely changed anything on it).
It's a very good monitor. Great contrast and balanced, colors. Very tight picture 600 TVL for that size is actually a heck of a lot, you get nice full scanline(unless you press your nose hard against the screen) that are chunky and round edged. A super pleasing picture.

But it's small of course. I paid mine $65 on Ebay last year, but most of the time they are sold at $100 and up. So yeah I would say $125 is a bit much. If you're patient you can probably get one for a bit less

[Shoryukev]

I thought 14" was too small until I got my PVM and started using it. If you've got it sitting on a table/desk/etc. in directly front of your face it is still very enjoyable.

[FinalBaton]

I thought 14" was too small until I got my PVM and started using it. If you've got it sitting on a table/desk/etc. in directly front of your face it is still very enjoyable.

14" works well I think! In fact I personnally prefer it to 20", since with 20" you gotta sit at the same distance as a 14" anyway. And the 14" is lighter and easier to carry and takes up less space.

I love playing NES on my 1354Q. the thin blanked lines works best with the small sprites of the NES I think.
Speaking of that monitor, I had an amazing experience with it. Over the holidays I brought it to the familly house and put it on the living room table, with my NESRGB hooked up. I got my nephew to play Zelda on NES on it, and now he's hooked! Every time I see him, he asks me to continue our Zelda game on the "little tv" That was an awesome bonding experience. My bro also couldn't believe how clean and vibrant the game looked, lol.

[Einzelherz]

I have two 14" class monitors and I think they'd be perfect if I had a desk to play them on. They're on my dresser which makes it difficult to sit close enough comfortably.

At this point though I'm of the opinion that if you don't yet have a pro monitor and the price isn't highway robbery, just get it.

[accaris]

If anyone is looking for an HDTV that still has VGA input (in the U.S.,) Vizio's 28-inch LED 2016 model is available. It's not even advertised on the Vizio website, maybe because it's a niche product or just hasn't been announced yet.

I could only find a link for it at Wal-Mart, but apparently Office Depot also has it.

28-inch is not huge by any means, but okay for a small bedroom setup or as an extra screen where VGA is desired. I personally have the 2015 version (which has a center stand instead of two feet,) and the black levels are extremely good due to it being full-array LED. The 480p scaling was also quite good. Input lag was about 25-28ms.

[nissling]

14" is way too small for me. 20" can only work in certain cases, but the small screensizes of CRTs are my main bug with them overall. It's very easy to get used to 55" and up...

[kamiboy]

I could certainly get used to 55", if it wasn't for the fact that such sizes are the realm of fixed resolution displays. I'd take a 14" CRT over any sized none CRT display any day of the week. Of course these sentiments only apply to none HD gaming.

[FinalBaton]

I could certainly get used to 55", if it wasn't for the fact that such sizes are the realm of fixed resolution displays. I'd take a 14" CRT over any sized none CRT display any day of the week. Of course these sentiments only apply to none HD gaming.

yeah, I'm pretty much the same. If I didn't have a big RGB monitor, I'd be gaming on the 1354q and the consumer Sony for everything sixth gen down (except the DC. I'd play that one on the HDTV, except for fighting games).

I would play some playstation games on the HDTV via PS2 from time to time though. Mainly RPGs. Oh and Resident Evil 2 look really good plugged straight into my HDTV via PS2 for some reason. I think the slight interpolation my HDTV does favours the graphics of a game like this.
Well scratch that : thinking about it, I would probably play these PS1 discs on the PS3.
But the games above are the only ones I would play on the HDTV though, because I'm very sensitive to input lag. And I prefer a CRT picture

But right now I'm playing everything on the NEC XM37
(except GBA games where I plug the SRA composite cable straight into the HDTV).

[keropi]

What is your opinion on the PVM-14M4E ?
Can anyone confirm that it will work with composite/luma as sync for Analog RGB IN or does it accept only C-SYNC?
Is the HUE setting in the monitor's OSD menu? (for when you connect a ntsc composite source)

I am thinking of getting one - 14" is ideal for my space. Thanks for any info!