Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Skykid]

Bringing back the slightly old topic, what's the opinion on Gunforce II, aka Geo Storm? The first Gunforce is a bit janky, but II looks so wild and crazy and exciting, I can't help but get the feeling it's awesome. Yet to try it, though.

It's a beautiful thing. I'm just bitter about no ending though. One for dream game hackz I think.

[BIL]

OOH GUVNA. Totally forgot to link a rather cool Revenge of Shinobi no-shuriken+no-damage replay ITT. Credit to Vludi for the find:

Love: judiciously applied invincible frames during evasion or attack. When done right they can enhance the fluidity of any game, 2D or 3D. Shinobi III, Actraiser 2 and Silent Hill 4 are some of my favourite examples.

I think you will like this run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Pqv1_L4hQ. Great use of blocking, projectile cancels, i-frames and damage by contact that are otherwise trivial when playing normally.

He's right too, I loved it. This replay is ninja as fuck.

Spoiler

Spoiler

High-execution and also instructive stuff; demonstrates lots of little things even big fans might not be aware of. The r5.2 red car block looks brutally risky, but it's actually a cinch to pull off. My feelings are conflicted on the matter! For although it's fun to do and boosts the stage's pace to interesting effect, I have long found mirth in our Japanese ninja master storming across the Pacific into the heart of Detroit, destroying a T-800 in single combat, then being ran over by a Toyota.

[Sumez]

I tried that game. Multiple times. I really really want to like it but it keeps fucking me up.
So much (senseless, not badass like in hard corps) memorization and terrible controls.
I love Shinobi 1 for being full on Rolling Rhunder, and even Shinobi 3 with its few terrible levels still has some awesome enjoyable stuff, but this one just feels like it only wants to piss me off...


Ps. Trying to type hard corps on a mobile touch keyboard turns it into hars vorps.

[BIL]

At least it wasn't Hard Cocks. ;3

Yeah Revenge/Super has chronic offscreen shooter syndrome. :[ Found it a total bitch to revisit for the first time I could remember, a few years back. While the latter two MD Shinobis were instant additions to my MD collection, SS went ungotten for many months. Eventually it clicked like a motherfucker, though - I have to disagree about the nature of its memorisation. Where Hard Corps tends to be "everything kills you, then nothing does," Revenge is more akin to Alien Soldier's evolving assault course. Learning basic stage and boss data enables progressively flashier styling and profiling, not just mere survival or marginally quicker boss kills. As rampantly satisfying as they are, none of HC's runs reach this sort of sustained audacity.

Also like AS it effectively becomes a one-hit killer at advanced level, since losing POW will slam the brakes on a storming run as cruelly as any checkpoint. You don't wanna peck at bosses like a pussy, you wanna skullfuck 'em clean in half.

Spoiler

The controls and overall handling are ace imo. It's certainly a chunkier-handling game than the AC or subsequent two Super Shinobis, but I like its sense of Castlevania's methodical pace in a doublejumping, i-framing ninja context (obviously there's CVIII Grant and Rondo Maria for this, but the more the merrier!). The autoguard while advancing on enemies is a great mechanic too - much more unique and geared for aggression than SS2's block button (SS2 was only ever a six button game in my world! ta GSK).

The ideal would've been these level designs with SS2's subtly more flexible control, and neither game's offscreen shooters.

If it's of any help, something I somehow never twigged until browsing the US manual (nowhere as beautiful as JP, but I can read it!): the shuriken burst is specifically designed to stomp enemies directly below Joe. It's obviously not ideal, but if you're landing in parts unknown it's useful to follow the burst down.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll be the voice of dissent and say I have kind of the opposite reaction to picking up Revenge/Super vs 3 after a long period since childhood playthroughs of each.

Revenge feels very straightforward to me. Some rough spots here and there, but a classic and charming example of side scrolling fundamentals.

3 I really want to like, but the pacing and level design always prevents me from putting too much time into it. I'm sure authoritative play would boost it considerably, but I never have the attention span to get to grips with it.

[Sumez]

Objectively 3 has some crazy flaws. The maze levels are absolutely terrible, but that is mitigated on subsequent playthroughs. I'll never be friends with the flying-rocks autoscroller, which is just poor level design (and usually the only time I'll lose one or more lives in an otherwise decent playthrough), and the rail-climbing on the Ninja Gaiden 3-wannebe'ish final level only serves to prove that the controls were NOT made for this purpose.
Also, the regular sideways autoscrollers are so easy they feel like elongated cutscenes.

Still, with all that in mind, it's a game that I always feel like playing through multiple times in succession and where hard mode really feels worth playing, even if it all it does it take a chunk off your life bar. The final boss kicks absolute ass, even if he's somewhat slow and methodical. He'll go down pretty fast if you think about what you're doing, but if you're just winging it he will be the one punishing you in a matter of seconds.

For every flaw Shinobi 3 has, I feel like Revenge has the same at least a few times as much. The second stage is usually what kills the mood for me, so full of things that will kill you if you don't know where they are before it's too late.

edit: Much like its schizophrenic level design, the soundtrack of Shinobi 3 is also weirdly varying in quality featuring MegaDrive masterpieces such as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjaW4ZYzVHI

AND ear-eating, headache-inducing atrocities such as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRMcQRDAl0s

[Squire Grooktook]

I...I actually kind of like Rush and Beat

Might even call it a stand out track.

[Sumez]

I might be able to like it a bit if it didn't (literally) make my head hurt. Who the hell thought of putting something that sounding like the ring of a rotary dial phone in there? There are also one or two worse songs on there, though I can't remember their names right now, Rush and Beat just stands out because you'll be stuck on the stage for ages the first time playing the game.

[BIL]

Sumez you pretentious cartridge-sniffing elitist... that's My Dear D in the hate link, isn't it.

Oh wait it's not. I'm sorry lmao!

Still, you'd better not diss My Dear D, you awful YM2612 elitist! For real I have much estimation for that tune! Such a violent, eccentric yet cybernetically tight composition with its pummeling drum rolls, depth-charge bass and bizarre riffs, dusted by fragile arpeggios almost too delicate for such a brutal ruck - at least, if they weren't integrated to the maelstrom with orbital laser precision! I wonder if the composer was deliberately evoking the sensation of fighting against the stage's sludgy undertow with explosive bursts of speed and agility.

Boss (total body weapon HYDRA aka "One Ugly Muhfucka") makes a hearty "BU-WOOOOO!" howl when he dies too, lmao! I like the brutal *PAN* of his rainbow lasor, as well! And how every time you smack him he'll cease retreat to claw you, opening his mug up to yet more punishment, letting the player set the pace in a vicious cycle of face-smashing/claw-dodging!

I thought Shinobi Walk (if I'm remembering the name of waterfront facility's BGM correctly) was a bit self-consciously going for "teh funk" of Koshiro's inimitable Revenge OST, but otherwise I don't have many complaints about III's music. "Solitary" hammers and soars, "Mandara" is damn near as incendiary a boss BGM as Koshiro's "Terrible Beat," and "Ninja Soul" is heavy as fuuuck. Actually relieves the painful tedium of that crappy st2.2 autoscroller!

RE SS1 vs SS2, there personally isn't much in it, but for The Curse of Shitty Autoscroll. My praise and criticism of their movesets and stage design is largely similar, as is my regarding of them as stylish ninja-themed performance pieces first, survival challenges a distant second. I actually really like all three of SS2's maze stages - they're clearly designed so seasoned players can sweep through with minimal diversion, ignoring the various nooks and crannies (or dead ends, in the third's case). The Rush & Beat Factory has a few vertical climbs I adore rocketing up two handholds at a time. The ninja mansion showcases the game's sadly under-utilised walljumping; I think this would've been FC Batman tier with similarly consistent stage design. Regardless I love blasting a sleek, bloody line through all three. SUPER PROTIP for the second's girder breaking - you don't need to wait for bombs to time out (or deliberately trip them), just divekick the buggers and BOOF the floor is gone.

SS2's handful of autoscrolling clunkers is inordinately damaging, however. If you're gonna stop my ninja momentum you'd better give me something cool or at least diverting to do! Only r2.2 is a real snoozer, imo (at least horsey and surfy have some fun mechanics and patterns to play with, on top of looking great with that MD parallax) - but it's to a degree unheard of in SS1.

I'd still put them about even (ie holy fuck, I love deez games) as, although SS2's level design has some gimmicky flab, its moveset is a real treat once you're able to deploy it to maximum effect (again, six button mode is a must - not just for ease of use, it also opens up some neat and otherwise inaccessible tricks like the melee attacks' projectile-cancelling properties). Ultimately I think both should've been easier to play competently (too much stuff calibrated to legsweep newbies), and (moreso SS2) harder to play authoritatively.

[FinalBaton]

I...I actually kind of like Rush and Beat

Might even call it a stand out track.

I like it too
But to be honest, the song played through my Genny sounds nothing like that Youtube upload. It sounds fuller and warmer.
Professor G's Genesis OST uploads usually sound super good. Don't know what's up with that one. Maybe the motherboard revision he recorded from has a sound that's less suited to this ong than mine? I don't know. Speaking of that, I don't remember what mobo revision he is recording from...

Or maybe the slight harmonic distortions induced by the DAC in my machine are what gives it a "fuller" sound compared to his direct digital sound capture from the YM2612. Like cassette tape vs a CD

[Volteccer_Jack]

Rush and Beat is better than Whirlwind. Suck it nerds. Also Shinobi III and Bare Knuckle III both have much better music than the overrated schlock of their respective predecessors. Suck it yet again, nerds.

IMO the nursing home elevator is the only real weakpoint of Shinobi III. The two riding levels are on the easy side, but so is the whole game, and they are sufficiently thrilling when playing the no-shuriken run. The real reason Shinobi III has a 3-button mode is to make the no-shuriken run that much more difficult.

[FinalBaton]

Bare Knuckle III both have much better music than the overrated schlock of their respective predecessors. Suck it yet again, nerds.

Disagree regarding Bare Knuckle's OSTs. I like the first one better. In fact it is at the beggining of my jogging playlist

[Vludi]

I like Rush and beat too, the instrument for that part wasn't ideal but still good enough. Also don't listen to Professor G's uploads, he used a pretty bad emulator for those recordings, here some real hardware goodness: https://youtu.be/QPwTddEX7Fs?t=1178

Have you played Shinobi Legions/X/Shinobi Den (Saturn)? As goofy as it looks, and despite some slightly slack handling, I love how it uses Shinobi III's 6-button mode as its foundation. Blocking on reaction, separate shuriken/sword buttons, and a couple really cool innovations like the somersault katana and projectile deflection (which stronger enemies can do, too)... if it had the same killer near-future style and razor sharp sprites of the prior two games, I'm sure it'd be more fondly regarded. I totally consider it The Super Shinobi III as-is.

Sorry late reply . Haven't played Shinobi X yet but I'm optimistic with it and will ignore the cheesy graphics if the game is solid enough.

[FinalBaton]

I like Rush and beat too, the instrument for that part wasn't ideal but still good enough. Also don't listen to Professor G's uploads, he used a pretty bad emulator for those recordings, here some real hardware goodness: https://youtu.be/QPwTddEX7Fs?t=1178

Ah! I had forgotten about dustinodellofficial's YT. I listened to a couple of his uploads, namely Bare Knuckle. I think I had Professor G mixed up with him

Have you played Shinobi Legions/X/Shinobi Den (Saturn)? As goofy as it looks, and despite some slightly slack handling, I love how it uses Shinobi III's 6-button mode as its foundation. Blocking on reaction, separate shuriken/sword buttons, and a couple really cool innovations like the somersault katana and projectile deflection (which stronger enemies can do, too)... if it had the same killer near-future style and razor sharp sprites of the prior two games, I'm sure it'd be more fondly regarded. I totally consider it The Super Shinobi III as-is.

Sorry late reply . Haven't played Shinobi X yet but I'm optimistic with it and will ignore the cheesy graphics is the game is solid enough.

BIL, you just sold me on Shinobi X, I wanna try it now. I remember Joe from Game Sack calling it a good game and I was like "hmmm, interesting...", but now that you endorse it I am fully on board

[BIL]

I like Rush and beat too, the instrument for that part wasn't ideal but still good enough. Also don't listen to Professor G's uploads, he used a pretty bad emulator for those recordings, here some real hardware goodness: https://youtu.be/QPwTddEX7Fs?t=1178

Good catch! Crumbs, I'm even subscribed to Dustin, just grabbed the first link I saw.

My Dear D, good god what a synergy of the articulate and the primally violent. Crystalline cybermelodic stardust over bone-jarring bass, the whole assemblage moving with an eccentric yet relentless force. And aww sheeeit, just segued into the sinister bounce of Trap Boogie. What an OST.

Sorry late reply . Haven't played Shinobi X yet but I'm optimistic with it and will ignore the cheesy graphics if the game is solid enough.

BIL, you just sold me on Shinobi X, I wanna try it now. I remember Joe from Game Sack calling it a good game and I was like "hmmm, interesting...", but now that you endorse it I am fully on board

If nothing else, I guarantee you chaps will like the somersaulting katana, and will probably wish you could do it in the previous two games.

[Sumez]

I know what the game sounds like on hardware, it's the only way I ever played the game.

Rush and Beat is better than Whirlwind.

You're absolutely mad!

[FinalBaton]

I know what the game sounds like on hardware, it's the only way I ever played the game.

Rush and Beat is better than Whirlwind.

You're absolutely mad!

But maybe you have a console with a motherboard revision that has bad audio :3

Just kidding, just kidding!


But, just for kicks though; what Genesis model and mobo revision do you have? I love learning about which systems other people play on :3

[Shoryukev]

I played on a Genesis model 2 with the bad audio revision most of my life.....my ears thanked me immensely when I tracked down my non-TMSS model 1

[FinalBaton]

I played on a Genesis model 2 with the bad audio revision most of my life.....my ears thanked me immensely when I tracked down my non-TMSS model 1

I know right?! It's such a huge difference!

My exposure to the Genesis sound was through my good friend's model 1 Genny, when I was a kid. I remember it sounding pretty bad, and in turn I formed an opinion of the Genny's sound as follow : "It sucks! It sounds horrible! The SNES is sooooo much better" lol

Last year we examined his Genny : well low and behold, it is a VA7 motherboard -_-


now that I have a good Genny revision, I am now a Sega convert, an FM synth apostle God damn this sound spectacular

[Obscura]

Huh, I didn't know there were two different versions of the sound chips on the Genesis.

The only Genesis I ever played was my cousin's, and I always thought the sound was good. Didn't know that a lot of people experienced a worse sounding console.

I wonder why Sega would have put out an inferior hardware revision?

[FinalBaton]

Huh, I didn't know there were two different versions of the sound chips on the Genesis.

The only Genesis I ever played was my cousin's, and I always thought the sound was good. Didn't know that a lot of people experienced a worse sounding console.

I wonder why Sega would have put out an inferior hardware revision?

Yes, not only are there 2 different soundchips found in GEN/MD consoles (either a discrete Yamaha YM2612 or an ASIC Yamaha YM3438), but there are a bunch of different audio circuits used as well! Making for a lot of variants.

Here's a comprehensive guide to what's inside each Genny/MD motherboard revision of both model 1s and model 2s :
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... m-bad-ones

The gist of it is : there are two different excellent audio circuits, used in the motherboard revisions listed below, that stand above the rest.

Model 1 VA2 : crystal clear and with powerful thumping bass. This is likely the best Genny sound but there is one caveat : some loud sound effects might distort. This is because apparently the gain on the preamp runs too hot. In my experience this doesn't happen too often though

Model 1 VA3 to VA6: a tad more muffled sounding than the VA2, but otherwise still excellent. This one has the advantage of not being plagued by the gain problems of the latter, so no distorted sounds ever.



There are of course mods now than can remove the gain problem's of the VA2 without altering it's sound too much. And there's also the MEGA AMP (co-created by the OP of the post I linked) circuit, which can be installed in any GEN/MD and supposedly produce the sound of the VA2 with the gain fix applied. Lots of people seem happy with the MEGA AMP so it looks like it hits the mark.

[Shoryukev]

I'm not sure which revision my Genesis is, but it's a pre-TMSS (aka it doesn't have the startup screen that says produced by or under license from sega enterprises ltd.) so I know it has to be one of the earliest ones. It does distort on some very loud sounds, usually I just turn the headphone output down slightly and it goes away 100%. I'd be open to a mod that fixes it though, since my system has already been re-capped and modded for s-video anyways.

I've heard the non-TMSS genesis's have inferior video quality in RGB compared to other model 1's, but I can't confirm it. It look absolutely fantastic on mine, and I don't get any of the rainbow artifacts I've read about. I immediately booted sonic and stood in front of the waterfalls and looked for the bad image artifacts when I first read about it....but I can't see anything. Maybe it's because it's re-capped?

It's funny you bring up the "SNES is soo much better, Genny sound sucks" argument....I see that all the time. I've come to believe that most of these people who have this opinion must have the bad Model 2 revisions or something (I did for most of my life too). It really is a big difference, my childhood memories are of a grainy, fuzzball distorted sound....but the right Genesis is capable of so much more!

The reason Sega went with an inferior version? Price.....I can't remember exactly, but I remember when I was younger my family didn't get a genesis until the Genesis model 2 came out. I think that was because of a price break.

[FinalBaton]

I'm not sure which revision my Genesis is, but it's a pre-TMSS (aka it doesn't have the startup screen that says produced by or under license from sega enterprises ltd.) so I know it has to be one of the earliest ones. It does distort on some very loud sounds.

Being a non-TMSS makes it either a VA2, VA3, VA4 or VA5. If it has occasional distorted sounds, that makes it a VA2 (unless the crackling sounds are a result of something else gone wrong in the circuitry, like a bad contact somewhere etc).

I've heard the non-TMSS genesis's have inferior video quality in RGB compared to other model 1's, but I can't confirm it.

Really? I thought that all Genesis motherboard revisions had the same quality RGB signal

[Shoryukev]

It probably is a VA2 then, it seems to just be too loud and you get some clipping occasionally on loud sounds...rolling off the headphone volume a tad makes it go away. I could be wrong about the earliest revisions having rainbow artifacts in the RGB picture signal, since I couldn't see any difference. I'll try and find the article that put that idea in my head.

[Sumez]

Just to answer the question, I have both a MegaDrive 1 and 2 (eu both) and a US Genesis 3 (for some reason)
I also have the soundtrack on vinyl.

That track is painful on all of them. It's really strange to me that people can perceive those sounds so differently.

[Skykid]

...Bare Knuckle III both have much better music than the overrated schlock of their respective predecessors. Suck it yet again, nerds.

Shinobi is debatable, although I disagree on the whole. Bare Knuckle isn't debatable. Don't be a fool.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Shinobi Legions is indeed great. Only thing that turns me off a bit is the lack of invulnerability on the running slash, which slows things down considerably.

Bare Knuckle isn't debatable. Don't be a fool.

Oh boy, I've heard this one before. Let's just nip that in the bud: Beat Ambience is awesome, Super Mix is a hackneyed imitation of the original theme, and both Poets are better than anything that plays in the second game.

[Vludi]

Poets is one of the few nice tracks in SoR3 imo and that's probably because it wasn't composed by Koshiro, I don't dislike SoR3's OST but it's not great either. My favorite of the three is probably SoR1, catchy tunes while still capturing a noctunal vibe, SoR2's music is nice but a bit too happy for a beat 'em up.

[EmperorIng]

I think I also lean towards the first OST as my favorite, but BK3's ost is often wrongly maligned. At its best it's great, brutal, hardcore stuff.

BIL's constant praise of Shinobi X makes me want to try it again... Grr, I bet only to be frustrated and disappointed at its lame, lame elevator stage (lacking the coolness and flow of Super Shinobi 2's elevator stage) and finicky platforming.

Too bad that the Japanese soundtrack is so muted and unmemorable. The PAL ost, composed in like a month by Richard Jacques, is an improvement in every sense.

Stage 1 JPN - tonally fitting, but boring!

Stage 1 PAL - Hell yeah, fits perfectly in the Shinobi theme of ancient Japanese ninjitsu + modern-day aesthetic

[BIL]

BIL's constant praise of Shinobi X makes me want to try it again...

Glad to hear! Though I'd describe my sentiments as consistent approval moreso than constant praise. It's certainly got its ropier aspects - I'm not fond of the weak-feeling run, or the wimpy dash sword Jack mentioned.

(Especially after the iframe masterclass of SS2's running slash! Invincible to projectiles but not melee/contact damage during hop, enforcing good spacing. Absolute invincibility during slash, encouraging ballsy aggression and imparting a sense of almighty power. No invincibility whatsoever during sliding stop, punishing sloppiness. That's a lot of great design packed into one move!)

But the conventional wisdom of it being a Contra: Legacy of War-esque fall from grace into kusogeland is enormously overblown. Were it a stunningly produced system showcase ala the previous two games, I've no doubt the same casuals would rave over it. As for me it's a flawed but worthwhile spiritual sequel to the MD Super duo.

For a truly lame 32-bit attempt at Shinobi III-style ninja action, I suggest The Rapid Angel (PS1). Dishwater dull.

Grr, I bet only to be frustrated and disappointed at its lame, lame elevator stage (lacking the coolness and flow of Super Shinobi 2's elevator stage) and finicky platforming.

The elevator's definitely overlong for what it is, but even so it keeps me busy with the nonstop onslaught. Bodies dropping left and right, usually in pieces. With the game's removal of contact bumps, and the wicked rolling somersault katana, I get an almost Metal Slug sense of bloody scrimmage. SS2's r2.2 elevator is technically more sophisticated, but too slow and sparsely-populated for its individual components to work. Those foxhole snipers needed something to stop me idly picking them off one by one. Bits where the ceiling threatens to crush, or the scroll to overtake, lack the resistance to stop me reaching safety long in advance. Either support enemies, terrain hazards or faster scrolling/more rapid deployment... any one of these would've helped.

I compare it to the Famicom and NES versions of Ninja Gaiden III's st2.2 autoscroller (there's those numbers again!). The former's a leisurely, annoyingly slow climb. Just a few strategic enemy additions instantly bring the NES one up to par.