RetroUSB AVS - HDMI NES implemented on a FPGA!

[leonk]

The sad truth is that the PowerPak can't emulate all NES ROMs. In fact, it would be in much worst shape today if it wasnt for community controbutions to it.

Has anyone tried to get customer service from RetroUSB? It's poor at best. My PowerPak stopped working. only form of support is email. you get a reply back in 48 hours, if you're lucky. Took only 5 months to get it back.

I said this before, and I'll say it again, $$ is not the bottom line. If it was, then we'd all be connecting our NES via composite and just playing it (most people do this) or game on retron5 (cheaper than both and plays multiple consoles). Or cheaper yet, build yourself a retroPie. $35 and excellent HDMI output.

[BONKERS]

when was the last time the powerpak was updated? it will probably be the same for AVS.

Kevtris has released several updates for the Hi def Nes already. when he finds a bug he fixes it. its also a LOT less expensive and the interface is better.

I will be buying kits when i get some more $.

AVS is plug and play and is an entire NES system in one box. While with the HDMI kit, you have to already have a NES, be willing to modify it and the case and the cost of parts and tools in doing so. For the average user, that means paying for install service. Which is even more money.
Game-Tech was selling pre-modded NESs with the kit for WAY more than an AVS.

In comparisons already so far, the AVS's expansion audio sounds better and closer to the real thing than the HDMI NES as well.


Honestly, the AVS is by far not only the best value but the least hassle to get great quality of it for said price. Plug and play.

720p processing is not a huge issue, and on 4k TVs 720p is 3x3 integer scaling, even if it was 1080p. That's 2x2 scaling to 4k and most TVs really don't upscale it all that much better than 720p. Then you are stuck with 4x 240p scaling with empty space even after upscaling to 4k. Or you spend the extra processing power to get 5x scaling with lines cropped out.

with 720p output, you get full screen 3x scaling to start with and then whatever it's upscaled to after that gets full height output without wasting processing power.


Let's take the PowerPak out of the equation here. Stuff like that in the past was clear hobby level stuff, where as the AVS is basically a full blown fully featured commercial product.

or game on retron5 (cheaper than both and plays multiple consoles). Or cheaper yet, build yourself a retroPie. $35 and excellent HDMI output.

Retron 5 uses laggy emulation, will have inaccuracies thanks to it's low powered android platform and old out of date stolen software. No one should own of these devices. I'd argue for the RP/Lakka option over the Retron 5 for multi system emulation any day. However...

Retropie still requires set up, additional adapters if you want to use a real NES controller and a hardware case for it. Specifically speaking for this one use case for an average user. So for sure a better value than the R5, but not a total plug and play solution.

The AVS isn't software emulation. And until it's proven and shown that the accuracy is somehow significantly off and doesn't support a large amount of mappers and games. It will remain objectively the best value for the most people. No hassle, it just works.

Already above mentioned expansion audio sounding better thanks to being pulled straight from the cart. (Which might not the best if you rely on audio emulation from a romcart since it will be limited to how well it does any individual chip)

[Sumez]

Since the mappers are on the cart, how's the AVS "supporting mappers" even a thing?
I mean, it has to be able to interface with them obviously, but that's a standard part of the NES hardware (writing to registers as addresses in memory), it doesn't have to know ANYTHING about them to use them, so ideally the compatibility should be 100%, right?

[Arasoi]

.

[Josh128]

Anybody have any input lag info on this thing?

[RGB32E]

Anybody have any input lag info on this thing?

Its quicker than using composite from an original console to a FHD TV! RetroUSB has several tweets about lag:

https://twitter.com/retroUSB/status/765633567451975680

https://twitter.com/retroUSB/status/771022874631168001

Check it out!

[orange808]

Anybody have any input lag info on this thing?

Its quicker than using composite from an original console to a FHD TV! RetroUSB has several tweets about lag:

https://twitter.com/retroUSB/status/765633567451975680

https://twitter.com/retroUSB/status/771022874631168001

Check it out!

GIGO

No info about the digital displays used for testing.

GIGO

[Ikaruga11]

Wow. There's so many different options for playing NES games. Emulator boxes, hardware clones, the real thing in RGB or HDMI, the upcoming NES Mini, etc. Someone should make a tier list based on all factors (picture quality, performance, accuracy, sound, input lag, etc.)

[Brad251]

I think the AVS NES is a very appealing option. It is a lot cheaper than RGB modding an original NES and then buying a framemeister and from the sound of it, input lag between the two should be comparable. You also have many more options with the AVS NES. I mainly care about the reduced input lag without having to spend a fortune.

[RGB32E]

I think the AVS NES is a very appealing option. It is a lot cheaper than RGB modding an original NES and then buying a framemeister and from the sound of it, input lag between the two should be comparable. You also have many more options with the AVS NES. I mainly care about the reduced input lag without having to spend a fortune.

Don't forget that the Hi-Def NES (HDMI mod) is also a great alternative to a NESRGB with a Framemeister and is lag free (only buffers a few lines/no frame buffer) and is capable of outputting a bit perfect image, unlike the Framemeister (not disparaging, just being honest)! Even if you require Hi-Def NES installation services on an existing console, the end price is comparable to the AVS. Lots of good options out there right now and coming soon (NESRGB+OSSC/FM, HDN/Nt, AVS, NESC, Nt-mini)!

Someone should make a tier list based on all factors (picture quality, performance, accuracy, sound, input lag, etc.)

How about that someone be you!

[Guspaz]

If you already have an NES with a BLW or a toploader and a famicom adapter (or don't care about famicom), yes, the cost is comparable. If you don't currently own one, the cost of buying a new NES and BLW (or toploader) and famicom adapter and having an HDN NES installed would cost far more than an AVS.

I'd suggest the HDN is the better option if you've already got the rest of the hardware, but a very expensive option if you don't.

[tacoguy64]

Wow. There's so many different options for playing NES games. Emulator boxes, hardware clones, the real thing in RGB or HDMI, the upcoming NES Mini, etc. Someone should make a tier list based on all factors (picture quality, performance, accuracy, sound, input lag, etc.)

I'll be happy to make such a video if I was donated all those systems
I'll make it a "high quality" YouTube video and i'll go in depth over each of the systems.

[masqdgamer]

I'm fine with the RetroFreak for NES games on an HDTV or my component modded Top Loader on a CRT. I only have around 30 NES games anyway.
Seems like a cool product though. I wouldn't use it enough to warrant the price though.

[leonk]

I think the AVS NES is a very appealing option. It is a lot cheaper than RGB modding an original NES and then buying a framemeister and from the sound of it, input lag between the two should be comparable. You also have many more options with the AVS NES. I mainly care about the reduced input lag without having to spend a fortune.

True.. if you only play NES. But what if you own a SNES, N64, Genesis, Saturn, PC Engine, ...

Framemeister is still your only option!

[orange808]

I think the AVS NES is a very appealing option. It is a lot cheaper than RGB modding an original NES and then buying a framemeister and from the sound of it, input lag between the two should be comparable. You also have many more options with the AVS NES. I mainly care about the reduced input lag without having to spend a fortune.

True.. if you only play NES. But what if you own a SNES, N64, Genesis, Saturn, PC Engine, ...

Framemeister is still your only option!

No.

A VCR, an XRGB-2, an OSSC, and a cheap Dvdo will get you there with about 1/2 frame lag. The Framemeister is slow. (not necessarily used all at once--mind you)

That covers everything retro console from Odyssey to N64.

[leonk]

^^^ r u serious!? VCR? using what? composite video!?!?

Lets get serious. If you spend $$$ on retro consoles, games and are a nut for quality, you'll cheapen out and just buying a FM!?

Personally, I play on a 20" PVM. 0 lag and killer pic. No VCR.

[orange808]

^^^ r u serious!? VCR? using what? composite video!?!?

Lets get serious. If you spend $$$ on retro consoles, games and are a nut for quality, you'll cheapen out and just buying a FM!?

Personally, I play on a 20" PVM. 0 lag and killer pic. No VCR.

Good for you. We're all golf clapping for your amazing setup.

Your console collection sounds so little and cute.

Odyssey, ColecoVision, ADAM, Intellivision, Atari 5200 (Dreadnought Factor!), Atari 7800, Sega Master System.

Demodulators make sense for people that.. you know.. spend $$$ on retro consoles.

[leonk]

you know theres rgb mod for inteli and sms is rgb. rest can be modded for composite and fed into FM.

The only flaw of FM is cost. If you add up hdmi mods for consoles (nes, n64, gc) the FM becomes a cheaper alternative.

Back to AVS. If you're naustolgic for original HW then the only thing going for it is OEM power and reset button. Rest is all new as far as I know.

[orange808]

you know theres rgb mod for inteli and sms is rgb. rest can be modded for composite and fed into FM.

The only flaw of FM is cost. If you add up hdmi mods for consoles (nes, n64, gc) the FM becomes a cheaper alternative.

Back to AVS. If you're naustolgic for original HW then the only thing going for it is OEM power and reset button. Rest is all new as far as I know.

Nice pivot at the end. I didn't see any solutions for my Odyssey, KC Munchkin.

Also: The TV overlays don't fit on the big screen, but I still might want to huddle around Pong with my big brother over the holidays. You know, on the big tv with the family--versus huddled around a dinky monitor in the basement.

But, yes, back to the AVS and you acting like a twat about the VCR..

Back to the AVS.

[Guspaz]

Well, cost and lag. It's not much, but it's not nothing.

I've discovered that my projector's got 4 frames of lag dealing with 480i and 240p over composite/s-video, and 2 frames of lag dealing with progressive content.

Except, if I feed it 240p over component or RGB (it'll only accept 15 kHz over VGA if I feed it RGsB), it treats it as progressive, with the base 2 frames of lag, and it does a reasonably sharp job of scaling the image up with the blocky pixels intact. Not razor sharp, but clearly not a bilinear scale, since the edges of the square pixels are intact.

I could add a Framemeister, which would get me a sharper image, but also nearly double my lag. So why bother? That, and I play on my PVM normally anyhow, it's just nice to be able to play on the big screen on occasion.

I will say that it does indicate that I could use some better cables somewhere in that signal path. It's regular RGC SCART cables going into a Shinybow component converter, and then a 10 foot completely unshielded component cable that came with an old Scientific Atlanta cable box going to the projector. It's probably the component cables, mostly.

[leonk]

Nice pivot at the end. I didn't see any solutions for my Odyssey, KC Munchkin.

Also: The TV overlays don't fit on the big screen, but I still might want to huddle around Pong with my big brother over the holidays. You know, on the big tv with the family--versus huddled around a dinky monitor in the basement.

Enjoy your RF/composite output on your 60" LCD. Most people still game like that. For video purists who come to this forum, getting the best out of their consoles (at no cost) this is not an option.

Personally, I play on PVM and enjoy the higher video quality. If I wanted to game on my LCD, I'll use the FM. RF, composite, VCR is not an option for me. It's 2016, not 1983. The world moved on.

[Brad251]

If you already have an NES with a BLW or a toploader and a famicom adapter (or don't care about famicom), yes, the cost is comparable. If you don't currently own one, the cost of buying a new NES and BLW (or toploader) and famicom adapter and having an HDN NES installed would cost far more than an AVS.

I'd suggest the HDN is the better option if you've already got the rest of the hardware, but a very expensive option if you don't.

I looked into the NES HDMI mod and I agree that it would be the better option as there appear to be more features with it and the only input lag with it would come from your HDTV. If you have to buy a new NES before doing the HDMI mod and pay for someone to install it, it is about $100 more than just buying the AVS NES. From what I understand, there is a little more lag on the AVS NES that comes from your HDTV having to upscale the 720p signal.

What is a BLW?

[orange808]

Nice pivot at the end. I didn't see any solutions for my Odyssey, KC Munchkin.

Also: The TV overlays don't fit on the big screen, but I still might want to huddle around Pong with my big brother over the holidays. You know, on the big tv with the family--versus huddled around a dinky monitor in the basement.

Enjoy your RF/composite output on your 60" LCD. Most people still game like that. For video purists who come to this forum, getting the best out of their consoles (at no cost) this is not an option.

Personally, I play on PVM and enjoy the higher video quality. If I wanted to game on my LCD, I'll use the FM. RF, composite, VCR is not an option for me. It's 2016, not 1983. The world moved on.

Real gamers don't move on.

GFY

[orange808]

If you already have an NES with a BLW or a toploader and a famicom adapter (or don't care about famicom), yes, the cost is comparable. If you don't currently own one, the cost of buying a new NES and BLW (or toploader) and famicom adapter and having an HDN NES installed would cost far more than an AVS.

I'd suggest the HDN is the better option if you've already got the rest of the hardware, but a very expensive option if you don't.

I looked into the NES HDMI mod and I agree that it would be the better option as there appear to be more features with it and the only input lag with it would come from your HDTV. If you have to buy a new NES before doing the HDMI mod and pay for someone to install it, it is about $100 more than just buying the AVS NES. From what I understand, there is a little more lag on the AVS NES that comes from your HDTV having to upscale the 720p signal.

What is a BLW?

My 4k screen needs an extra decile of a millisecond to display 720p.

That's 0.1 ms! Practically nothing.

I avoid clone consoles because they aren't 100℅ compatible, but you have to decide how many obscure carts you want to own.

[firepro4life52]

Anyone able to directly compare this to the retrofreak console? I only have the retrofreak, but I feel like it runs and displays NES very well. From what I can tell, the only difference is the AVS has that sprite feature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Brad251]

My 4k screen needs an extra decile of a millisecond to display 720p.

That's 0.1 ms! Practically nothing.

I avoid clone consoles because they aren't 100℅ compatible, but you have to decide how many obscure carts you want to own.

It depends on the TV. One person reviewing the AVS NES said that upscaling 720p to 1080p on their set introduced 20ms of input lag. What model is your 4K TV?

[Guspaz]

What is a BLW?

Blinking Light Win:

https://www.arcadeworks.net/blw

It basically puts the same sort of cartridge connector as a toploader (like the latest NES, or the SNES) in your original frontloader NES, replacing the original ZIF socket. As a result, it essentially solves all reliability issues relating to the 72-pin connector.

[leonk]

^^^ agreed! Only thing that stops working is the GAR. But no one actually uses it. Most are shelf queens.

[Brad251]

What is a BLW?

Blinking Light Win:

https://www.arcadeworks.net/blw

It basically puts the same sort of cartridge connector as a toploader (like the latest NES, or the SNES) in your original frontloader NES, replacing the original ZIF socket. As a result, it essentially solves all reliability issues relating to the 72-pin connector.

That is awesome. I can't believe I didn't know about that. I just spent a significant amount of time restoring the 72 pin connector on my friend's NES to get it working. Had I known about this I would have just told him to get it. Installation is a piece of cake too.

[Guspaz]

I had done the same thing, boiling my 72-pin connector and all, and sure enough it did work with all the games that I had at the time. Then I got a bunch more games, and it wasn't working with some of those ones even with the pins cleaned). Eventually I gave up and got the BLW.

Word of warning: while they've theoretically solved the "death grip" issue with the current version (v2) of the BLW, some of the v2 units still have a death grip like v1 did. If you get such a unit and it's really really hard to get the cartridge out, just reach out to ArcadeWorks and they'll replace it for free. This happened to me: my first v2 unit was nearly impossible to get games out of, but my replacement unit is fine.