Prelude to the Apocalypse

[quash]

Media is in full damage control mode. Take this Huffington Post piece, for instance.

Trump giving feminists everything they've ever wanted is an insult to women, and it's implicitly sexist that he doesn't include men in this plan. Trump could walk on water and the media would spin it as him not being able to swim.

[BulletMagnet]

Go vote for the person who says will do one thing and will turn around and do the exact opposite to please her rich masters.

You're concerned about candidates being too beholden to moneyed interests and you're considering voting Libertarian?

[quash]

Right? Everyone knows they're on the DNC bankroll.

[Bitter Almonds]

They're also against the failed foreign interventionist military policies and spending. They're against the failed war on drugs. They're against mass incarceration. They're against mass spying. They're pro-immigrants. They're not in the money-laundering business that both major candidates enjoy. This alone is pretty damn good and leaps ahead of the two establishment asshats.

[Mischief Maker]

Go vote for goldmansacks.

Hey, I just wanted to let you know you can read The Libertarian Party Platform on their website. Gary Johnson will not win the presidency so your protest vote would just be an attempt to grant legitimacy to that party. I think it's only fair you understand who you're supporting.

Here's a choice excerpt:

2.6 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository institutions of all types. Markets are not actually free unless fraud is vigorously combated. Those who enjoy the possibility of profits must not impose risks of losses upon others, such as through government guarantees or bailouts. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and unconstitutional legal tender laws.

They're a little coy with language nowadays, so you might not realize how hard they're stretching their buttcheeks apart for Wall Street and goldmansacks with that "unrestricted competition" verbiage, so let's see how that read in its original raw form before the spin doctors went to work on it from their 1980 platform, the year they ran with David Koch for vice president (yes, really):

We favor free market banking. We call for the abolition of the Federal Reserve System, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, The National Banking System, and all similar state and federal agencies. Such governmentally sponsored credit agencies as the Federal Home Loan Banks, the Federal National Mortgage Association, the Student Loan Marketing Association, and the various institutions supervised by the Farm Credit Administration must either be abolished or totally privatized. To complete the separation of bank and state, we favor the Jacksonian independent treasury system, in which all government funds are held by the government itself and not deposited in any private banks. The only further necessary check upon monetary inflation is the consistent application of the general protection against fraud to the minting and banking industries. Pending its abolition, the Federal Reserve System, in order to halt rampant inflation, must immediately cease its expansion of the quantity of money. As interim measures, we further support:

a. the lifting of all restriction on branch banking;
b. the repeal of all state usury laws;
c. the removal of the prohibition of interest for demand deposits;
d. the abolition of Federal Reserve control over the interest paid on time deposits;
e. the elimination of margin requirements on stock purchases; and
f. the revocation of all other selective credit controls.

Libertarians are even bigger friends to goldmansacks than the Democrats ever were, however weak Dodd-Frank may be, it's better than what Libertarians would give us.

So why isn't goldmansacks showering Johnson with money? Same reason I'm not voting for Jill Stein. No matter how attractive it sounds, it's still a losing investment.

[BryanM]

Yes, libertarians aren't good on domestic economics for the average schleb. We all know this. Don't be like Dexter's ghost dad or Garfield's thought bubbles.

You're concerned about candidates being too beholden to moneyed interests and you're considering voting Libertarian?

No one votes for the libertarian. They vote against the republican party.

Lesser evil, you see. I hear some people are into that sort of thing.

Not me though. Let's all get back on topic about how Baroque would be objectively better without a 3 minute death timer hanging over you in the town area.

[Bitter Almonds]

Oh, this whole election is a waste of votes. Unless you're at the top 1%, both candidates won't do shit for ya. You are deluded into thinking one is less evil than the other when they're both the same shit sandwich. Again, her voting record - when it mattered - was used against US citizens and people who had the misfortune of being born in countries they wanted to invade and occupy. She can try to rationalise her stupidity now, but it's not gonna fly. $hillary is who she is - the second coming of dick cheney.

[Mischief Maker]

Well it's not a roguelike, but if you're looking for a fun action/RPG on the PS2 with random elements, you might want to try S.L.A.I.

[quash]

Since the likelihood of shit hitting the fan is pretty high at the moment, I've decided to put a significant sum of money aside for stocks I plan to buy the day after the election.

I made the mistake of not preparing for Brexit, but I don't make the same mistakes twice. You all can thank me later, just leave some oil shares for me.

[antron]

Got a letter from my 401k fund manager that everyone in the stable value fund (cash) will automatically be set back to the market at the end of the month. They'd hate for me to miss out on gains they claim. Hmmmm...

Oh, this whole election is a waste of votes. Unless you're at the top 1%, both candidates won't do shit for ya.

Medicaid expansion. Federal insurance subsidies for borderline poor. Elimination of pre-existing condition discrimination.

[Mischief Maker]

You think Trump wants to abolish the FDA so he can finally unload all those unsold Trump Steaks?

[Bitter Almonds]

Oh, this whole election is a waste of votes. Unless you're at the top 1%, both candidates won't do shit for ya.

Medicaid expansion. Federal insurance subsidies for borderline poor. Elimination of pre-existing condition discrimination.

$hillary would rather invade and occupy Syria before doing any of that.

[quash]

Look at em' go, folks!

[antron]

Oh, this whole election is a waste of votes. Unless you're at the top 1%, both candidates won't do shit for ya.

Medicaid expansion. Federal insurance subsidies for borderline poor. Elimination of pre-existing condition discrimination.

$hillary would rather invade and occupy Syria before doing any of that.

It's already been done, in the ACA. She will protect it. Trump will undo it.

[Mischief Maker]

I just realized something about people like Jimmy Dore and Bitter Almonds.

The opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. Love and Hate are just passion toward another person put through a positive or negative filter. I did divorce mediation for a while and one of the patterns you notice is when the divorce is relatively drama-free and amicable, they weren't really in love. But if this couple was deeply in love from the start, the divorce will be ugly because all that passion that used to go into the love nozzle is now being redirected to the hate nozzle.

Bitter Almonds and voters like him are in hate with Hillary Clinton. Trying to reason with them is just like trying to reason with a woman in a passionate abusive relationship. Facts only increase the romance of their defiance.

"You're wearing sunglasses at night because he gave you a black eye! He's hurting you and it's only going to get worse. You've gotta break up with him before he kills you!"

"No, you don't understand, I know what you've heard but I promise you he's a good man underneath it all!"

"For all her faults, Hillary Clinton isn't pushing to abolish the FDA! Trump is hurting the country and it's only gong to get worse. You've gotta vote against him before you die of salmonella poisoning!"

"No, you don't understand, I know what you've heard but I promise you she's an evil woman underneath it all!"

[BryanM]

Trying to reason with them

You can't make another person into a copy of yourself. You can't make them value things the same exact way you value them. You're asking Almonds to eat dog shit instead of cyanide (at least, it's dog shit versus cyanide in your view. You don't seriously consider the counter-argument that it's arsenic versus cyanide on your end.). He refuses to do either. Obviously it's pretty damn emotional to you, too, since you're sincerely asking someone to eat shit.

I've got this long spiel about how crazy it is to double space after every sentence since any value it had was rendered obsolete by two paradigm shifts, but c'mon! Like the guy with the $5,000 suit would take the time to do that.

in hate with Hillary Clinton

No, Hillary Clinton is virtually a non-entity. You don't get angry at the puppet unless you're a child. You get angry at the hands inside the puppet.

Hatred for Hillary Clinton is but a grain of sand in a vast complex desert of hate.

in hate with Hillary Clinton

She's down in Florida and Ohio this week. Why can't you hate someone who gave the election to this Trump guy you claim to hate so much?

[Bitter Almonds]

It's as if the past 36 years never existed to some of these $hillary voters. The clock started running for them as soon as they pulled the rug from underneath Bernie Sanders.

[Mischief Maker]

You're asking Almonds to eat dog shit instead of cyanide (at least, it's dog shit versus cyanide in your view. You don't seriously consider the counter-argument that it's arsenic versus cyanide on your end.).

The FDA Food Police, which dictate how the federal government expects farmers to produce fruits and vegetables and even dictates the nutritional content of dog food.

Well your analogy would definitely be true if we elected Trump. Once he gets the FDA food police off the dog food manufacturers' backs there most definitely WILL be arsenic in dog shit.

[Bitter Almonds]

By then, we'll be knee deep in terrorist shit, as the US has increased the isreali subsidies to the tune of 3.8 billion dollars. We recall $hillary doubling down on her chicken hawk neo-con Middle East policy when she gave her speech to the isreal pro-settlements lobby.

[Mischief Maker]

By then, we'll be knee deep in terrorist shit, as the US has increased the isreali subsidies to the tune of 3.8 billion dollars. We recall $hillary doubling down on her chicken hawk neo-con Middle East policy when she gave her speech to the isreal pro-settlements lobby.

Now you're changing the subject. But I'll play along.

I agree with BryanM. You should pay attention to the hand inside the puppet. Sources have said when Trump was shopping for VPs, he offered Kasich control of domestic and foreign policy. Presumably Mike Pence got a similar offer, which would make him a very big hand up Donald's ass. So where does Pence stand on Israel? How did Pence vote on the Iraq War 2 vote? Has Pence been a vocal advocate for the TPP? Do you really need me to give the answers or have you figured it out already?

So you'll be quick to say, "Aha! They're both the same then." No, they're the same in this awful category, PLUS Trump has disastrous budget proposals that involve abolishing the FDA and EPA, adding up to Trump being worse. I live in Wisconsin and I can promise you that a Republican legislature will not reign in a clearly disastrous budget pushed by a demonstratively stupid executive. The lesser evil is less evil!

It's as if the past 36 years never existed to some of these $hillary voters. The clock started running for them as soon as they pulled the rug from underneath Bernie Sanders.

So now you're gonna pull the rug out from under him a second time? He changed the Democratic Party platform to the most progressive platform in decades, he and Warren are in position to lead a powerful progressive bloc in the legislature, and he set up Our Revolution to maintain the momentum of his campaign and provide the grassroots activism necessary to give his legislation the horsepower it needs to overcome blue dog democrats. But you're gonna say, "Fuck you Bernie, your movement is coming to an abrupt end and I'll make sure your legacy is just to be another neolib boogeyman like Ralph Nader because I'm electing Donald Trump! Punishing $hillary is more important to me than any of the issues on your platform."

It's as if the next 36 years (especially Supreme Court decisions) will never exist to you. You're in hate.

[Bitter Almonds]

I didn't change the subject. They're both the same, no matter how much you try to upsell the demorat corporate and military shills.

I don't have to agree with Bernie Sanders on everything and I definitely don't agree about voting for dickless cheney.

[BryanM]

Fuck you Bernie, your movement is coming to an abrupt end and I'll make sure your legacy is just to be another neolib boogeyman like Ralph Nader because I'm electing Donald Trump! Punishing $hillary is more important to me than any of the issues on your platform.

Counterargument: Hillary and her friends elected Donald Trump president. Random Internet Guy #5067 didn't. Get mad at the shit sandwich, not the guy uninterested in eating it.

[BulletMagnet]

They're both the same, no matter how much you try to upsell the demorat corporate and military shills.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's both astounding and frightening how little some us have learned from the brazen assault on our discourse that was Election 2000 and the utterly disastrous results it wrought.

[Mischief Maker]

I don't have to agree with Bernie Sanders on everything and I definitely don't agree about voting for dickless cheney.

Fine, go pout. Debating with you is like trying to give advice to that AtheistGod kid. I was in your same position in 2000 when I decided Gore and Bush jr. were the same and threw my vote away on Nader. (Well actually not because Bush jr. was campaigning as a moderate) I'm telling you it didn't turn out well and you're going to repeat my mistake. You wouldn't have a "dickless cheney" quip to tell if so many voters in 2000 weren't tired of the Monica Lewinsky scandal and decided "fuck it, lets shake things up."

Right now the polls have Clinton and Trump so damn close the independent vote could tip the scales, or it could be close enough that Trump & Co could pull off another stolen election.

I'm having flashbacks to 2004, talking to undecided voters who tell me "John-Kerry-is-a-wishy-washy-flip-flopper-with-no-clear-stand-on-the-issues" and I patiently try to correct them and direct them to Kerry's website to see his clear stand on all the issues but they aren't hearing any of it. Just plug your ears and scream "They're-both-the-same! They're-both-the-same! They're-both-the-same!" until the person telling you inconvenient facts gives up and walks away.

Counterargument: Hillary and her friends elected Donald Trump president. Random Internet Guy #5067 didn't. Get mad at the shit sandwich, not the guy uninterested in eating it.

I am furious that the DNC hoisted such a weak candidate on us. But if you think Hillary is some special case compared to the rest of the DC crowd you're sadly mistaken. Bernie is the special case. At the same time if you think throwing your vote away is the only way to strike back at the DNC, you're sadly mistaken there as well. I want Hillary to be president and I want her presidency to be a living hell with all the pressure Bernie and Our Revolution and other progressive groups bring to bear on her.

She isn't a shit sandwich because she can be pressured and changed. She's already been forced to shift during the election and she will continue to bend under pressure.

But allowing that little bit of hope is scarier than just saying they're the same, wrapping yourself in the wet blanket of cynicism, and calling it a day, isn't it?

They're both the same, no matter how much you try to upsell the demorat corporate and military shills.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's both astounding and frightening how little some us have learned from the brazen assault on our discourse that was Election 2000 and the utterly disastrous results it wrought.

Here's an even more frightening thought. There's an entire generation of voters who grew up under Bush jr's presidency, so that's their conception of "normal." Don't forget earlier in this thread when someone said Trump "won't be a disaster, he'll just be like Bush jr." entirely oblivious to what a disaster that really was.

[BryanM]

I was in your same position in 2000 when I decided Gore and Bush jr. were the same and threw my vote away on Nader.

Now in 2016 you can decide Gore and Bush II are different and throw your vote away on Gore. Maybe in 2032 you'll come full circle again or go full trapezoid and do something else.

At the same time if you think throwing your vote away

Once again: I live in Oklahoma. My only vote was back on March 1. Election's been over for BryanM for a long time now.

is the only way to strike back at the DNC, you're sadly mistaken there as well.

To give them the power to lose, big, to Super Duper Trump in 2020 doesn't do anything to help long term. Nor does having congress locked up by republicans for the next four years. Just pull the plug already man. Stop running down the game clock when its already over. Submit to destruction and go out with some grace.

She isn't a shit sandwich because she can be pressured and changed.

Uh.

someone said Trump "won't be a disaster, he'll just be like Bush jr." entirely oblivious to what a disaster that really was.

Was that me, when I pointed out we're still somehow alive even after all that?

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. You might be projecting things you want to hear versus things that are being said.

John Kerry is very possibly going to lose to Bush II again. It'll be [s]a disaster[/s] great+tremendous. That's the sort of thing that happens here.

Welcome to America. Abortions for some, miniature american flags for others.

[quash]

Right now the polls have Clinton and Trump so damn close the independent vote could tip the scales, or it could be close enough that Trump & Co could pull off another stolen election.

I'm sorry, did you just insinuate that Trump might steal the election?

Have you been paying any attention to this election? At all?

[Bitter Almonds]

See, this is - again - the misguided notion of $hills for $hillary who believe they're right and must "debate" with people who know better. $hillary was given numerous chances to prove where she stood her entire carpetbagging career - and she chose wrong every time. Only when she needs a few more votes from sell-outs, vendidos, and uncle toms does she start flip-flopping on what she truly believes. Frankly, I'm shocked at the irony of obummer visiting the country of Laos, a country which we blew up to smithereens and then goes back to cheer for the cunt who praises kissinger. But, hey, that's what a son of a whore would do.

[Lord Satori]

Do you need to be reminded, once again, that name-calling isn't a shortcut to victory in a debate?

[ED-057]

So now you're gonna pull the rug out from under him a second time? He changed the Democratic Party platform to the most progressive platform in decades, he and Warren are in position to lead a powerful progressive bloc in the legislature, and he set up Our Revolution to maintain the momentum of his campaign and provide the grassroots activism necessary to give his legislation the horsepower it needs to overcome blue dog democrats.

...sounds just like this:

"No, you don't understand, I know what you've heard but I promise you he's a good man underneath it all!"

Apologists continue to apologise.

Anyone who thinks that reforming the system from within is possible (and preferable to the alternative) should consider that this relentless apologism which bends over and surrenders to evil every damn time actually makes reform impossible.

BTW, did you manage to keep a straight face while you were praising the dems for their supposedly new-and-improved platform, courtesy of the guy that they just stabbed in the back? Treachery is a ticket for the ninth circle, you know.

[Mischief Maker]

Do you need to be reminded, once again, that name-calling isn't a shortcut to victory in a debate?

Actually I'm thankful he did that.

I was wondering this morning why I was getting so worked up last week and I realized that I simply misjudged a lot of people here during the primary when we were all agreeing that Bernie was the superior candidate. I guess because Sanders comes across as a rumpled cranky old man I mistakenly thought that all his supporters were voting based on policy like me and not personality-based voters who respond to vapid messages like "I'm with Her" or whenever Trump says he's the only one who can make America great.


"He did not have a [...] huge ego, so he didn't hold out for his name to be highly placed on pieces of legislation. But he did hold out for amendments and changes that [...] helped working people and helped the poor, and I saw it again and again and again."

I didn't think that Bernie was a cult of personality candidate in part because of his record of letting other congresspeople, including Republicans, take the name credit on his bills and amendments to actually get progressive results during the Republican stranglehold of the Bush years. So who cares if Hillary gets part of the credit for his future reforms? He's inspiring to me in a way that Jill Stein isn't because he's results-oriented.

I can't find the transcript for the precise speech, but one part I remember from the Bernie rally I attended was when he said he was introducing legislation to address one of his issues and the crowd erupted in cheers. So here I am saying, remember that legislation you were cheering for? It's more likely to pass under Hillary! And when that only made these guys on the forum angrier I was confused and dismayed.

But this morning I realize we're not operating on the same level. Looking back on this week I was trying to back up my statements with citations and facts, then Bitter Almonds retorts with CUNTCUNTCUNT FUCKITFUCKITFUCKIT! I thought more of him than that, and I was mistaken to do so. Now that I realize that fact, it's a load off my mind.

This is not the time for a protest vote, in terms of a presidential campaign. I ran as a third-party candidate. I'm the longest-serving independent in the history of the United States Congress. I know more about third-party politics than anyone else in the Congress, okay? And if people want to run as third-party candidates, God bless them! Run for Congress. Run for governor. Run for state legislature. When we're talking about president of the United States, in my own personal view, this is not time for a protest vote. This is time to elect Hillary Clinton and then work after the election to mobilize millions of people to make sure she can be the most progressive president she can be.