Help Choosing Framemeister or Ultra HDMI / SD Via Component

[Dvnrm1]

Hey everyone. I've been having a hell of a time (about a week of researching) trying to figure out the optimal set up for my soon to be significantly updated bedroom entertainment center. I'll be as concise as I can but also want to make sure I get everything in because frankly I'm frustrated and tired of stumbling around from forum to forum to video to article, ad infinitum, attempting to find answers.

Some brief info: I'll be upgrading from my current 37" LCD to an approximately 46-50" LED. The systems in question are an N64, Ps2, and Wii. This increase in size makes picture improvement for at least my N64, but possibly my other systems, a necessity.

In my research I've come across two apparent options for significant image improvement: the SCART/Framemeister option (applying to all consoles) or the Ultra HDMI option (applying to the N64 exclusively.

Here are my questions:

I currently have component cables for both my Ps2 and my Wii. I've come to the understanding that the only real noticeable difference between component and RGB is that component is progressive and RGB is interlaced, even if RGB has a very slight edge color-wise to the extremely discerning or subjective eye. I for one would tend to prefer ED over SD regardless. Obviously this advantage only applies to games that are 480p capable on each system, and those are the minority. But how do the 240p and 480i games running on each system fit in? Does component video give me nearly as good a picture as I could hope for with the Framemeister, without shelling out nearly $400? Or are the upscaling capabilities of the Framemeister really worth such a huge price and all the hassles of modding and proper cable acquisition when comparing with the upscaler in the new TV I'll be getting, which I expect will possibly be better than the one in my current TV. I know that some 480i Ps2 games I've played haven't looked particularly great, even using component cables. Would they look better enough with the Framemeister for such a price?

As for the Ultra HDMI, I've heard that the odd 480i game can produce a fair amount of combing when panning from side to side. I don't know which games are 480i for sure, but I feel I may have a few, and at least one, LoZ: Majora's Mask. Can anyone confirm that this is a serious enough problem to serve as a major deterrent against getting this mod? If it's minor enough, or if there's some kind of fix, considering the "low" price when compared to the Framemeister, I would much sooner choose this option if component cables will do as good a job as anything for my Ps2 and Wii.

I'm hoping this wasn't tl;dr for anyone that could provide me with the help I'm looking for. Like I said, this has been a tough issue for me and I'm getting desperate for a resolution. Thanks in advance.

[BuckoA51]

Component should be fine on your FM with a little tweaking.

comparing with the upscaler in the new TV I'll be getting, which I expect will possibly be better than the one in my current TV.

Don't bet on it, it might be better for film/TV but videogames are a different matter entirely.

I don't know which games are 480i for sure, but I feel I may have a few, and at least one, LoZ: Majora's Mask.

Barely any that I've come across, Some old soccer game (Michael Owen or something). Majoras Mask only uses interlace in the appointment book screen.

[Guspaz]

The systems in question are an N64, Ps2, and Wii. This increase in size makes picture improvement for at least my N64, but possibly my other systems, a necessity.

In my research I've come across two apparent options for significant image improvement: the SCART/Framemeister option (applying to all consoles) or the Ultra HDMI option (applying to the N64 exclusively.

Keep in mind that the N64 does not support RGB (SCART) by default, and so the SCART/Framemeister option would require some sort of RGB mod be performed on the N64. Otherwise, you can run S-Video into the Framemeister.

I currently have component cables for both my Ps2 and my Wii. I've come to the understanding that the only real noticeable difference between component and RGB is that component is progressive and RGB is interlaced, even if RGB has a very slight edge color-wise to the extremely discerning or subjective eye.

It's not quite that simple, in that VGA is RGB at typically 480p, and component can also do 480i. It's true that SCART RGB usually means 240p/480i, and component usually means at least some kind of support for 480p, but it's not always true. For example, the PS2 is such an exception.

I for one would tend to prefer ED over SD regardless. Obviously this advantage only applies to games that are 480p capable on each system, and those are the minority. But how do the 240p and 480i games running on each system fit in? Does component video give me nearly as good a picture as I could hope for with the Framemeister, without shelling out nearly $400? Or are the upscaling capabilities of the Framemeister really worth such a huge price and all the hassles of modding and proper cable acquisition when comparing with the upscaler in the new TV I'll be getting, which I expect will possibly be better than the one in my current TV. I know that some 480i Ps2 games I've played haven't looked particularly great, even using component cables. Would they look better enough with the Framemeister for such a price?

Component video or RGB from a console to the framemeister is going to generally look nearly as good as native HDMI output when comparing to mods like the UltraHDMI or hi-def NES at comparable resolutions, although the framemeister will add a bit more lag than direct HDMI options typically do, since most (but not all) televisions don't have any extra lag upscaling 480p input as compared to direct 1080p input.

That said, there are some options available for the N64 that can improve image quality significantly. Most N64 games feature a horizontal interpolation, where the horizontal resolution of the console is doubled before output by averaging adjacent pixels. Both the N64RGB mod and the UltraHDMI have some form of support for fully reversing this (by taking every other pixel and replacing the averaged pixel with a duplicate of the original pixel), while a simple N64 RGB mod or unmodded N64 will produce a much softer image because the Framemeister doesn't support doing this.

How good 480p component video output from your television will look as compared to upscaling from some other device depends on your TV and the device. The Framemeister, for example, is known to have relatively poor handling of 480p input, being much better suited to 240p and 480i. Many televisions will upscale 480p better than the framemeister, but it's not a hard rule.

As for the Ultra HDMI, I've heard that the odd 480i game can produce a fair amount of combing when panning from side to side. I don't know which games are 480i for sure, but I feel I may have a few, and at least one, LoZ: Majora's Mask. Can anyone confirm that this is a serious enough problem to serve as a major deterrent against getting this mod? If it's minor enough, or if there's some kind of fix, considering the "low" price when compared to the Framemeister, I would much sooner choose this option if component cables will do as good a job as anything for my Ps2 and Wii.

I'm hoping this wasn't tl;dr for anyone that could provide me with the help I'm looking for. Like I said, this has been a tough issue for me and I'm getting desperate for a resolution. Thanks in advance.

One thing of note is that the Framemeister is very slow to switch between 240p and 480i input. Not that many games do this (switch back and forth), but when they do, you may need to wait on a black image for several seconds every time they do it.

[Dvnrm1]

Well considering the huge price of the Framemeister as well as the complexities involved with acquiring the proper cables/switches/etc, not to mention the occasional issue you mentioned regarding the black screen when switching resolutions in game due to menu screens and what have you, it seems like the Ultra HDMI choice might be preferred for my specific circumstances? I can understand someone absolutely needing a quality universal upscaler if they had a number of other different retro consoles, but like I said, I only have these three, and the only thing truly retro about my Ps2 is that it will be used to play the very few Ps1 games I own. As for the Wii, I assume any retro Virtual Console games have already been converted to 480 by Nintendo.

As I'm sure you can understand, I just don't want to spend a ton of money and time on something that I'll ultimately get relatively modest usage out of. My biggest fear is that my Ps1 games will be rendered unplayable on such a big screen once I upgrade, ESPECIALLY if I can't use component cables for them. My current TV has only been able to register a composite signal for my Ps1 games, but I know that can vary for each TV. My hope is that I'll get lucky with my new one.

Anyway, I'm just wanting to be sure I'm not going to take a much more expensive and time consuming option for a modest improvement of limited scope.

[ApolloBoy]

I wouldn't even bother with the Framemeister anymore with the OSSC around these days.

[tacoguy64]

I wouldn't go the Frameister route for most of those systems. A rgb modified N64 paired with the frameister will give you a nice picture for the N64. The problem for you is that Frameister doesn't really do 480p all that well. You might be better off hooking up both Wii and PS2 straight to the tv and getting your n64 modded for HDMI. RGB is not that drastic enough of a difference in quality jump from component so you can keep your other consoles un-modified. Just hope that your TV can scale the lower resolutions quite nicely.

And I also wouldn't say don't bother with the xrgb mini. Still quite a nice device with lots of versatility. With the FBX profiles you can get games looking as nice as most the other upscalers/ line doublers out there.

[gray117]

... so we're glossing that 'son' part? ...

All joking aside - your tv will be the first step. Choose that lag vs. image quality vs. price vs. availability. See how important general image quality is for you - many samsungs in particular take a heavy tumble in image quality in game mode and then a massive hike in input lag when not in game mode... but whether or not that effects your perception/enjoyment is really an individual matter. Then see how well (or not) it handles other inputs (sometimes drastically sometimes more or less identical to 'normal' hdmi), before deciding if/not a scaler would be desirable for certain systems or all systems.

It sounds like ease of use and the n64 are definitely a priority though?
... It might be an evil suggestion for some, but it could be in your case, emulation or next/current/mid gen console + backwards compatibility/download games might be an easier route for some of this stuff...?

Finally, you know fudoh's website? ...http://www.hazard-city.de/
...it's basically a one stop shop for scaling with gaming... could save you a few million hours
(specifically - http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/)

[Ikaruga11]

Just go Ultra HDMI for your N64 and plug it into your new TV. You can thank me later.

[RGB32E]

The UltraHDMI is unquestionably the way to go for the N64 if you're looking for the "ultimate" upscaling solution for the N64. While the mini has more 480i deinterlacing options, it's somewhat pointless in regards to the N64 as the 240p<=>480i transition times are rather heinous.

Also, you should know that to get the most out of the XRGB-mini you really only need to know how to use a few settings - profiles are not required for proper use and can be thought of as training wheels on a child's bicycle!

[Guspaz]

Most people use the profiles since it's much easier than changing the settings every time you change consoles, RGB32E is saying that because he has some sort of weird obsession with trolling the person who made the profiles.

[Dvnrm1]

Well I looked into the OSSC quite a bit and even though I was originally unimpressed considering it's merely a scan converter rather than a full on upscaler like the XRGB-Mini, the more reviews and information I've read through the more it seems like a relatively decent option. I watched the My Life in Gaming video review and even though it still doesn't output at the same level of clarity that the Framemeister does for fully 2D games, when it comes to 3D N64 and Ps1 games, from what I can tell the OSSC can do a pretty masterful job up converting to 480p or even 720p with the line tripling feature. And with no lag to speak of and a pretty vast improvement on intervals of black screen when switching resolutions in game menu screens, it sounds like a pretty great deal for the price.

My biggest issue with it is its purportedly subpar deinterlacing capabilities. I know there's a pass through option for all interlaced signals if you prefer how your TV does it on its own, but considering the majority of Ps2 games (and I would assume GC and Wii games as well) run in 480i exclusively, it seems like a pretty broad and empty gap of applicability. I'm all for my N64 and Ps1 games looking great with zero lag and improved transition times, but with so many games left looking like crap (at least they do on my current 5 1/2 year old 37" LG) it again has me wondering if it's worth the money.

I suppose if I were to get the Ultra HDMI mod for the N64 for nearly the same price, I'd be missing out on any improvements to my Ps1 games even if my 480i games can't be helped in either circumstance. Of course I'd still have to mod my N64 to even output RGB, but if that's not too much money along with the OSSC, perhaps it's worth it just to achieve enhancement for more than just one system? Anyone feel free to toss any more ideas or corrections my way if I'm missing something.

It seems like the 5th and 6th generation systems are the ones that cause the most problems in finding a perfect scaling solution (7th gen in the Wii's case). Get the XRGB-Mini and you get excellent upscaling for all purely 240p or 480i games in exchange for subjectively unacceptable resolution transition times in many 5th gen games. Get the OSSC and you get excellent conversion of all progressive sources with much improved resolution transition times in exchange for mediocre deinterlacing in most 6th gen games.

It might be an evil suggestion for some, but it could be in your case, emulation or next/current/mid gen console + backwards compatibility/download games might be an easier route for some of this stuff...?

Believe me, I've already contemplated all of it. I'm just trying to get something out of all of the equipment and games that I currently own, a lot of which I haven't even played yet. I'm kind of one of those people who has purchased a lot of games and has taken a longgg time to pick many of them up. But obviously it isn't for lack of enthusiasm considering I'm willing to go through all of this to make the experience as perfect, within financial reason, as possible. Taking those routes would undoubtedly let my current games and equipment go to waste while costing more money than it would to figure out and implement my best upscaling options.

[BuckoA51]

Deinterlacing was never the focus of OSSC from the beginning, it was always designed as a next gen line doubler with all the advantages and disadvantages that brings. If you need sophisticated deinterlacing you must pair it with another device.

Most Gamecube and almost all Wii games can run in 480p. A lot of PS2 games can if you use something like GSM too, but certainly nowhere near all.

[Dvnrm1]

Deinterlacing was never the focus of OSSC from the beginning, it was always designed as a next gen line doubler with all the advantages and disadvantages that brings. If you need sophisticated deinterlacing you must pair it with another device.

Most Gamecube and almost all Wii games can run in 480p. A lot of PS2 games can if you use something like GSM too, but certainly nowhere near all.

Yeah, I'm aware of what's necessary if I want a more all encompassing setup with the OSSC. Unfortunately such a setup is outside of my price range and would tend to cost me even more than a XRGB-Mini as far as I can tell.

I swear the more research I do, the more I go back and forth with what sounds the most useful, convenient, and/or cost effective. The Framemeister honestly does sound like it would be the most all encompassing fix across all SD content, though I have heard that 5th gen systems don't look remarkably better. If thats the case, then, considering Ps1 and N64 game enhancement is >50% of my objective, I don't even know what I'm doing considering it as an option. If it is a remarkable improvement, literally the only reason I think the OSSC sounds better is because of its much better sync time, zero lag, and more modest price.

But that in and of itself wouldn't even be a big deal to me if I knew for sure that I wouldn't be facing the 5-7+ second sync time from the Framemeister in select 240p/480i games. And I wouldn't want to deal with it at all. It's a legitimate deal breaker for me. I've been trying to figure out exactly which games do this but so far I'm having little luck. The lag is fortunately something that I've heard most gamers don't even notice. And as for crappy handling of 480p content, I guess my plan would just be to use RGB for every Ps2 game that isn't 480p and then switch out the SCART for component hooked directly to the TV for every game that is 480p. I know I can get a 480p signal with RGsB, but that requires a clean sync and a sync processor. Again, I'm trying not to spend too much money on all of this and due to such a setup's ridiculous complexity and space requirements it's just not a very viable option for me.

I wish I could just spend a ton of money on a gaming PC and say "screw all my current equipment" and just move over to emulation or repurchasing HD versions of what I already own. Unfortunately I'm not made of money.

Sorry if it seems like I'm dead set on proving that nothing will work for me; no one's more frustrated about it than I am. I hate being a perfectionist.

[tacoguy64]

When it comes to the N64 rgb there is a difference in color and sharpness when you jump to rgb but the difference isn't as big as something like the sega genesis. I don't want to say it's underwhelming but if you're expecting emulator like graphics then prepare to be disappointed. But from the videos i've seen the UltraHDMI mods looks pretty vibrant. With all that said, the N64 looks like garbage directly plugged into a HDTV.

I'm not sure which route you'll take but your options are quite limited. I'm not sure if you tried hooking up both the Wii and PS2 though component on your new TV?

[Dvnrm1]

I'm not sure if you tried hooking up both the Wii and PS2 though component on your new TV?

I haven't even gotten my new TV yet, lol. I've only barely started looking. I've been so preoccupied trying to figure out the best option for my retro consoles that it's engulfed the entire scope of my focus. I'm too tenacious for my own good and the closer I've gotten to what I thought was a solid solution only to be met with some kind of technical impasse or glaring caveat, the more I've frustratingly hammered down in any number of different directions to try and solve it.

But from the videos i've seen the UltraHDMI mods looks pretty vibrant.

I'd love to do the Ultra HDMI mod, I just know I'll regret it when it comes to my Ps1 games. Not only that but I do have a couple of games on N64 that run at 480i, Rayman 2 and Battle for Naboo. From what I've seen, the HDMI mod causes a fair amount of combing effect when panning at this resolution.

I think that at this point I've had to accept that I need to compromise. I have quite a few 480i games, mostly on Ps2. I figure that once I hunt down a TV that suits my needs, if the internal scaling and deinterlacing is decent enough to simply make those games approach the minimum range of what I would consider satisfactory, I'll leave them be and accept them for what they are. I'd get the OSSC along with the N64 RGB mod and just use component for my Ps2. If my new TV is temperamental about Ps1 games over component like my current one, I'll just have to use SCART exclusively for those and switch back to component for my Ps2 games. In this scenario I might even get a Ps3 just due to the money saved from avoiding the Framemeister purchase. If the 480i games are subject to dirt poor upscaling and deinterlacing, I'll probably just give in and buy the XRGB-Mini and hope that I don't come across any games that cause the terrible 240p/480i sync transition issue. I posted on another thread asking about whether the Final Fantasy games for Ps1 have this problem.

[FinalBaton]

I figure that once I hunt down a TV that suits my needs, if the internal scaling and deinterlacing is decent enough to simply make those games approach the minimum range of what I would consider satisfactory, I'll leave them be and accept them for what they are.

I think this is a good compromise for your needs. Find a TV that handles 480i decently and plug your PS2 in straight via component and be done with it.

That or get a 27 inch standard def CRT and play your 480i games on that ( PS2 via component and N64 via S-video).

[tacoguy64]

I figure that once I hunt down a TV that suits my needs, if the internal scaling and deinterlacing is decent enough to simply make those games approach the minimum range of what I would consider satisfactory, I'll leave them be and accept them for what they are.

I think this is a good compromise for your needs. Find a TV that handles 480i decently and plug your PS2 in straight via component and be done with it.

That or get a 27 inch standard def CRT and play your 480i games on that ( PS2 via component and N64 via S-video).

This will most likely be your fastest and most pain free way to go about it. A nice consumer crt will give you good size and a good picture for those consoles. Plug both Wii and PS2 to component and N64 will still look good with S-video. And if you really want to you can even do the rgb mod with the de-blur function and buy a scart to component transcoder to get the best out of the N64.

I was only suggesting going with the HDTV if both your PS2 and Wii have a good picture when you hook them up though component. Then all you have to worry about is the n64 which you can get HDMI modded. This way will let you stick with one display and uses the least amount of cables.

[Dvnrm1]

Does anyone know how the Waka Upscan Converter for Ps1/Ps2 compares to the OSSC as far as deinterlacing 480i signals goes?

Weighing my options, if I were to get the OSSC and required N64 RGB mod, it would cost me something like $250-$280. If I were somehow able to find a Waka, my option would be to get that and just get Ultra HDMI for my N64 and disable any "high-res" mode in the 480i games I have to prevent deinterlace combing. This combo would cost me something like $340-$370.

The prices are just estimates, but I feel the ranges are fairly accurate. Does anyone know whether it's worth the possibly extensive hunt and around a $100 more just for the Waka's deinterlacing of 480i?

[tacoguy64]

I have a WAKA upscaler and haven't experienced any problems when it comes to games going from 480i to 480p since it upscales everything to 480p. I think you should be fine with a WAKA if you can find one. Just remember that the WAKA only upscales to 480p vs. 720p and 1080p that the other upscalers and line doublers are capable of. You will also need a display that can do a good jop of displaying 480p.

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

[FinalBaton]

I figure that once I hunt down a TV that suits my needs, if the internal scaling and deinterlacing is decent enough to simply make those games approach the minimum range of what I would consider satisfactory, I'll leave them be and accept them for what they are.

I think this is a good compromise for your needs. Find a TV that handles 480i decently and plug your PS2 in straight via component and be done with it.

That or get a 27 inch standard def CRT and play your 480i games on that ( PS2 via component and N64 via S-video).

This will most likely be your fastest and most pain free way to go about it. A nice consumer crt will give you good size and a good picture for those consoles. Plug both Wii and PS2 to component and N64 will still look good with S-video. And if you really want to you can even do the rgb mod with the de-blur function and buy a scart to component transcoder to get the best out of the N64.

I was only suggesting going with the HDTV if both your PS2 and Wii have a good picture when you hook them up though component. Then all you have to worry about is the n64 which you can get HDMI modded. This way will let you stick with one display and uses the least amount of cables.

Yep. these are 2 very good options that the OP should consider IMO, since he wants to keep his setup simple and is not sure if he wants to add an XRGB-mini

[Dvnrm1]

Thanks for the additional suggestions. Unfortunately my aversion to a quality CRT is a convenience and space issue. This is in my bedroom, and it's a relatively small area. I'd have to put it on a rolling cart in front of my bed and from what I can tell there just wouldn't be enough room.

Here's a picture to give you a better idea: http://m.imgur.com/S1D2SUA

It makes my room look bigger than it is.

I have a WAKA upscaler and haven't experienced any problems when it comes to games going from 480i to 480p since it upscales everything to 480p. I think you should be fine with a WAKA if you can find one. Just remember that the WAKA only upscales to 480p vs. 720p and 1080p that the other upscalers and line doublers are capable of.

I wouldn't be too worried about the exclusively 480p output considering the only feature in question is the deinterlacing. I know I can theoretically get a makeshift 720p by line tripling Ps1 games with the OSSC, but whether my TV will even display it is unknown. I know that merely line doubling should make the N64 and Ps1 games look a lot better.

But to be clear, the only reason I would ever consider spending the extra hundred dollars and potentially tons of extra time to get my own WAKA is if it were THAT much better than the OSSC at deinterlacing and converting 480i to 480p.

[FinalBaton]

Have you looked at HDTVs which upscale 480i decently then?
With that you wouldn't have the need for an upscaler or any additional hardware. Just plug component cables straight into your HDTV and be done with it.

I'm sure there are some. My Flat panel upscales 480i pretty damn well but then again it's a 1027x768 panel so I can't exactly recommend that

[Dvnrm1]

No I haven't looked into that particular feature yet. I was unaware that such a thing could very easily be sought out, or that it could even be discernably sought out at all. I just assumed I'd have to hunt for whatever TV fits the bill based on size, lag, available inputs, and other such specs and then hope to get lucky when it came to quality 480i processing.

[BuckoA51]

Deinterlacing on HDTVs is tailored for video rather than videogames, you're unlikely to find anything as good as the FM can do with the right settings, nor anything as fast as the OSSC can do (except in very early panels). Nevertheless many sets do a pretty decent job, you could always go somewhere that lets you take in equipment to test (I know Richer Sounds here in UK lets you do that).

[FinalBaton]

you're unlikely to find anything as good as the FM

of course not. That's not what I suggeste. I said "handle 480i decently" in the post you quoted.

Sometimes it's worth settling for something that's not the absolute best, if it can simplify your setup greatly


The Sony HDTVs Fudoh reviewed, for example, seem to do a totally acceptable job with a 480i signal through component.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48662

[Dvnrm1]

Thanks, I'll look through that list on his site. I'm also looking for more than just a good TV for gaming though. I have a new soundbar to hook up and with a bigger, better TV it will also be intended to serve the purpose of providing a nice home theater setup - at least for a bedroom, lol. I have been thinking this whole time that I should get a 4k capable TV, but I'm not sure. I've heard they can cause issues with some of this retro gaming equipment. Not only that, but I'm unsure whether I would benefit from 4k, being 8 1/2 ft. away from a 46"-50" screen.

Can anyone say that they've actually compared the OSSC's 480i processing to the WAKA's? I haven't been able to find any videos of the WAKA processing this resolution but have found at least one of the OSSC.

Also, does anyone know if the picture quality is improved with the OSSC's pass through setting, or is it the exact same once it reaches the TV, just no longer analog?

Someone should also let me know if I should be posting these questions elsewhere at any point since I'm aware that the discussion has been somewhat tangential with regards to the title and original post.