Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4469
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

Shoryukev wrote: Sounds like I need to try harder to track down a copy of Hard Corps! :mrgreen:
It's an AWESOME game, you gotta pick it up :mrgreen:
It's so badass and sleek and non-stop blazing action goodness

The opening of the game might be one of the most overdriven, get-your-blood-pumping opening in videogame history :mrgreen:

Also it's got a quite cheesy, frantic techno OST (see stage 3) but it's part of the game's charm! over the top music and explosions everywhere!
It also has very sharp graphics IMO. The use of colors is tight, as is the case with all nice Genesis games
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Sumez wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:Shin Contra/Shattered Soldier generally seems well regarded to me. At least, as well regarded as any one game in the series can be (opinions always devided).
I might actually put Hardcorps a tiny bit higher. Greater highs, greater lows :D
The highs in The Shattered Soldier are insanely high! IMO much higher than anything in Hard Corps. Though I am willing to admit that it has mostly to do with setpieces and presentation, rather than gameplay. But I would say that so does Hard Corps.
While I do love "intestines", I am mostly thinking of gameplay. And Hardcorps has a biiit more of that unpredictable, rng chaos that I love. Hardcorps has a number of bosses, not quite as many as Contra 3, that are deathly terror each time. Shattered Soldier has even less from what I can remember.

Not a bad, just a bit more static than Hardcorps (which was already more static than C3 and C1), and thus a little bit more "sterile" feeling to me.

Instestines is rad though.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4469
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

Talks of newer Contra games always make me think of this vid of Hard Corps : Uprising played on a Sony HD CRT
https://youtu.be/gwvYErdz5pI?t=10m28s

God that looks nice. Wish I had a Sony super fine pitch HD CRT as well to play ps3/ps4 games on. But I already have 1 giant CRT >_<

Can't get a second one, that wouldn't be reasonnable, wouldn't it? >_<
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Hardcorps Uprising is very love it or hate it.

I like it. Iconoclast loves it. A few others like it.

Skykid hates it, and a few others do too.

It's flawed, moreso than even Hardcorps roughest moments, but it's air-dashy action is a thing of its own and well worth experiencing.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4469
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

Squire Grooktook wrote:Hardcorps Uprising is very love it or hate it.

I like it. Iconoclast loves it. A few others like it.

Skykid hates it, and a few others do too.

It's flawed, moreso than even Hardcorps roughest moments, but it's air-dashy action is a thing of its own and well worth experiencing.
Cool I will download it and give it a try!
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8740
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

I can see why people wouldn't like The Uprising. I liked it too. There's just something about it that made it way less memorable than every other Contra. Maybe it's just me.
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I'd say it's the opposite of memorability that causes the devision for most people.

The game plays really different, on top of being really rough.

If you like the new thing it goes for (acrobatic extra-air maneuverability and a dash that lets you vault through stages), you'll love it. Otherwise you're gonna fucking hate it.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
Shoryukev
Posts: 651
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:18 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Shoryukev »

Sumez wrote:I feel that anyone who don't own the game should. You'll be fine with a US copy - the Japanese one is insanely expensive, and the life bar is for wussies. 8)
FinalBaton wrote:It's an AWESOME game, you gotta pick it up :mrgreen:
It's so badass and sleek and non-stop blazing action goodness

The opening of the game might be one of the most overdriven, get-your-blood-pumping opening in videogame history :mrgreen:

Also it's got a quite cheesy, frantic techno OST (see stage 3) but it's part of the game's charm! over the top music and explosions everywhere!
It also has very sharp graphics IMO. The use of colors is tight, as is the case with all nice Genesis games
Good to know! I'll try and track down a US cartridge, I've been wanting to play it for awhile now. Konami sure knew what they were doing when programming for the Genesis!
Squire Grooktook wrote:Hardcorps Uprising is very love it or hate it.

I like it. Iconoclast loves it. A few others like it.

Skykid hates it, and a few others do too.

It's flawed, moreso than even Hardcorps roughest moments, but it's air-dashy action is a thing of its own and well worth experiencing.
I love it, though it isn't for everyone and I can understand gripes people have about it. I used to be on the PSN leaderboard frontpage with Arcade Mode high scores....though I haven't played it since about 2013 so I'm sure I've fallen from 15-20th to 15,000-20,000th or lower LOL
Squire Grooktook wrote:If you like the new thing it goes for (acrobatic extra-air maneuverability and a dash that lets you vault through stages), you'll love it. Otherwise you're gonna fucking hate it.
I hated it until I saw a friend speedrunning it doing all the maneuvers, then I got incredibly addicted to it LOL. Plowing through arcade mode with a friend going full speed is so much fun!
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8740
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

Shoryukev wrote:It also has very sharp graphics IMO. The use of colors is tight, as is the case with all nice Genesis games
Sort of curious how Hard Corps has pretty much NO slowdown except on rare occasions where the special effects warrant it and it doesn't interfer with gameplay, while Castlevania: The Bloodlines has more slowdown than The Contra III!

Thinking about Uprising (I really haven't played it since shortly after it came out...), as far as I recall, one of the things that caused me to never really get into it was the two modes - the game seemed to be wholly designed around the "Uprising" mode (at least I think that was the one?) that let you upgrade from having pretty much no maneuverability to being completely overpowered.
That was a lot of fun to play, but obviously became far too easy once you got powered up, and if you gotta judge a Contra game, you gotta judge it on its arcade gameplay - and playing Uprising on whatever they called the arcade-like mode where you had a bunch of preset powerups but lacked the ones that made you overpowered, just wasn't as fun to me. You become insanely crippled by lacking certain weapons in certain areas, and the game is LONG for an arcade game.

At least that's how I remember it. I could be way off.
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

To be fair, you get all the weapons in arcade mode. It just uses the system from certain games in the series (Super Contra arcade, Contra 4) where you power up the weapon by picking it up multiple times in a row.

Problem is the upgrades go up to 3, and if you lose that, well...the recoveries can be steep.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
Shoryukev
Posts: 651
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:18 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Shoryukev »

Back when I was really into the game, we would play uprising mode to practice....and then once we memorized everything we went into arcade mode. In arcade mode you have to be really good at holding onto your favorite weapons if you want to power them up, and two players really helps because you can hold different types and make good use of what weapon combinations are best for different areas and bosses.
Squire Grooktook wrote:Problem is the upgrades go up to 3, and if you lose that, well...the recoveries can be steep.
This tenfold LOL. If you're struggling with arcade mode it helps to hold your favorite weapon, and then switch to a blank slot when you think you're going to get hit so you don't lose it. Eventually you get the hang of things and can get through at least the first 2 levels holding onto weapons in both slots, but just try holding onto one at first. It helps a lot!
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 20286
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Sumez you cunning elitist! :O You edited your post in the Bloodstained thread so now it looks like I'm saying "The Contra III" unironically! A clever ruse to cost me standing in our cartridge-sniffing social circles... Image I WONT FORGET Image

Regards, The BIL
User avatar
Shoryukev
Posts: 651
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:18 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Shoryukev »

BIL wrote:Image
I know this is just a GIF, but I can't help but feel sharpened pencils jabbing my ears everytime I see Dr. Wily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIaoMOQjLw
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8740
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

BIL wrote:Sumez you cunning elitist! :O You edited your post in the Bloodstained thread

Read it in detail!
I don't pull punches, I only use the true titles. These cartridges smell like flowers, world peace and a future without digital releases being pulled from online services!
Shoryukev wrote: I know this is just a GIF, but I can't help but feel sharpened pencils jabbing my ears everytime I see Dr. Wily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIaoMOQjLw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmMispgpUs0
User avatar
Shoryukev
Posts: 651
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:18 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Shoryukev »

Call me crazy, but I actually kinda like those god awful cutscenes (especially every time Rush chimes in). It made me laugh my ass off the first time I played Mega Man 8. It's so bad it's good!
User avatar
Volteccer_Jack
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:55 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

The great thing Uprising does is implement a bunch of minor mechanics to enable a feeling of rapid traversal. The terrible thing Uprising does is EVERYTHING ELSE. It's the sort of game which, were I still young and foolish, I would have very fond memories of, forget why I stopped playing, and try again only to suffer the agony all over. Luckily I'm old and wise now, so I don't waste my time that easily. Even more luckily, there exist plenty of other games that emphasize speedy progression and are better.

Re: CIII, bike stage is legendary but everything else is weak. Suck it nerds. Contra 4 is basically CIII improved in every way except for some reason your dude leisurely strolls through the warzone instead of running. Maybe that was like a meta-"look how badass Bill is" thing, I dunno.
"Don't worry about quality. I've got quantity!"
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4469
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by FinalBaton »

@Volteccer_Jack



You better dig Hard Corps on MD/GEN... or I'll cut you Image
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 20286
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

FB pls, you and Jack are both made members of the Ryukenden Fun Club and must refrain from killing one another. Image

Also don't worry, Jack thinks Hard Corps > The Contra III Image

(as current head of this unit, I am watching over all... with a camera! Image )
Volteccer_Jack wrote:Maybe that was like a meta-"look how badass Bill is" thing, I dunno.
I like Contra 4 but I've since disavowed its depiction of me. My delts are much better-defined IRL.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8740
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Sumez »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:that Treasure-esque fun factor of Hard Corps
A-hah!!
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Contra 4's lack of shooting zako's till the penultimate side scrolling stage automaticly puts it below C3 (even on hard, the standard runner zakos just slowly jog at you and nothing else, enough to throw you off and create some chaos while dealing with other things, but not enough to create the kind of murderous whirlwind that even C3's first stage supplies on hard mode). Great game, and it definitely has some shining moments, but overall it doesn't channel the same speed (both in player and enemies), variety, or pace as C3. The rng chaos is almost there thanks to the nearly omnipresent random runner zakos, but their reduced speed and aggression (along with slightly less driving, more methodical level designs that reward you more for carefully clearing out turrets before advancing, unlike C3 where the best strategy is to PUSH, PUSH, PUSH, GO FORWARD UNDER HEAVY FIRE) ensures that C3's crown of perfect intensity remains untouched.

Like Hardcorps, it also has a few "useless" static setpieces and bosses which can take a while. Probably individually less annoying than the ones in Hardcorps, but on the other hand it's a much longer game than either title. The length is another thing that makes it feel a bit less explosive.

Contra 4 is more of a polishing/refining of Contra 1 then 3. Given how much it tips things towards platforming over combat. I love it for that, and it's another favorite title of mine, but it's no C3. Either in terms of quality or playstyle.


Another correction: The Bike Boss is legendary. The stage itself is actually one of the weaker ones imo :3 Stage 1, stage 3 (outside of the brief climbing setpiece preceding the drill smoosher) and stage 6 are the stuff of legends. Stage 6 is probably the best stage in side scroller history IMO.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 20286
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

I would agree the bike stage is legend quality... for an autoscroller. :wink:

Breaking it down (HARD ver obviously), it's an 80/20 good/meh (certainly no outright bad) split. Opening biker swarm is fine destructive fun; they're effectively a flypast shooting gallery that'll bitch-slap you for getting too carried away with the bubblewrap-popping fun. Gotta keep a close eye on those randomly-distributed grenadiers.

Tank miniboss is one of my favourite little setpieces from games of this Konami/Treasure type. Nothing fancy, but the segue is seamless, pressure from the tank and his jetpack snipers is good, and the scene is geared for aggressive smashing. Coming screaming out of the tunnel straight into the battle, then nailing the speedkill by advancing under the jetter fire while hammering the tank and his destructible shots is basically a much more satisfying variant of the recurring "blow the door down to proceed" bit.

Battleship underpass is a good smorgasbord of tricks and traps as a whole, but Shin Contra's addition of (telegraphed) pursuers would've been welcome at its safer bits (turret trio, roadsweep lasers, big gun). Especially as the lasers are entirely safespottable by hugging the left of the screen. As I said a few posts back, in a game this wickedly intense, I actually appreciate its handful of breathers... objectively though, this should've been tightened up. Gigantic multisprite swinging dong could've easily been a black eye but the autoscroll yanks him off the stage right quick so he's pretty harmless and honestly kinda cute. Prefiguring of the Multi Sprite Madness™ both Treasure and Konami would elevate to an artform over the next few years.

The elite gymkata ninja squad are a cut above the rest of the spread. Like the tank, speedkilling is practical and satisfying. It's also a pretty nervy sequence if you don't know what you're doing, but loses no satisfaction once you do. (I will forever find their goofy dying yells a bit incongruous though... :lol: makes me think of Neo Contra's Mission 2 building climb, and its window snipers' comically guttural roars of anguish as they're picked off and sent tumbling down... I feel bad shooting the ones armed only with potted plants!)

Ostrichbot and Rocket Ninja Sasuke, whose influence on Sparkster I would love to know (was he the originator, or did Nakazato/co model him on an earlier creation?), are yet again quality cannon fodder midbosses. They're meant for smashing underfoot, but aggressive enough that doing so never feels like a formality.

Boss is a masterpiece ofc.
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Yeah, except for the weak chickenwalker and safe spottable underpass, it's great fun. But it's a 10/10 when the rest of the side scrolling stages are 11/10 imo :wink:
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
Volteccer_Jack
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:55 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

BIL wrote:I would agree the bike stage is legend quality... for an autoscroller. :wink:
I don't consider that even slightly deprecating, unless of course the auto-scrolling is very very slow a la stage 3 miniboss.
Squire Grooktook wrote:Contra 4's lack of shooting zako's till the penultimate side scrolling stage automaticly puts it below C3 (even on hard, the standard runner zakos just slowly jog at you and nothing else, enough to throw you off and create some chaos while dealing with other things, but not enough to create the kind of murderous whirlwind that even C3's first stage supplies on hard mode).
The utter repugnance of CIII stage 3 prevented me from ever bothering to clear the game's hard mode, but I did play through the first stage, and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It was the Hell of the Fixed Snipers but otherwise unremarkable.

I don't believe CIII has good speed at all, and I believe the variety is entirely negative with a total of about two stages worth of the stuff I'm actually looking for in a Contra game. The second half of stage 1 is pointless, for example, and as I said stage 3 is utterly repugnant barring the brief vertical platforming section right before the boss. It starts with nothing happening excepting dumb rolling things that encourage me to halt forward movement every time a new enemy appears. The we get those flying grabby things and I honestly have no idea what the point of that bit is. Then the 3-phase miniboss where all three phases are tedious and dumb. The final stage is okay but doesn't do anything I can't get from most of the other games.

Anyway ultimately C4 and Shattered Soldier are the best, even though you are hideous in one and have a pulled hamstring in the other. In that sense, Hard Corps is the most "complete package" even though it's not as solid as those two.
"Don't worry about quality. I've got quantity!"
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 20286
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:I don't consider that even slightly deprecating, unless of course the auto-scrolling is very very slow a la stage 3 miniboss.
Or Hard Corps' Jungle Boss! Whose accumulated transition phases are several times as long and don't even have the decency to threaten you.
The utter repugnance of CIII stage 3 prevented me from ever bothering to clear the game's hard mode, but I did play through the first stage, and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It was the Hell of the Fixed Snipers but otherwise unremarkable.
If the snipers are giving you hell you're playing terribly - the idea is to rush in and shoot them. But this also means you've got to play whatever hand the RNG crowd spawner deals, which is exciting, which is why st1's streets is the best free run of the entire JP series next to st6's hive. You could slowly and methodically pick off the snipers, but then the crowd would be even more liable to swamp you.
I don't believe CIII has good speed at all, and I believe the variety is entirely negative with a total of about two stages worth of the stuff I'm actually looking for in a Contra game. The second half of stage 1 is pointless, for example, and as I said stage 3 is utterly repugnant barring the brief vertical platforming section right before the boss. It starts with nothing happening excepting dumb rolling things that encourage me to halt forward movement every time a new enemy appears.
Assuming we mean free-running action/platforming (as all three games are pretty even on minboss duelling/general setpiecery)... III is calculatedly sparing, but particularly since this post is comparing Hard Corps (and especially) Shattered Soldier favourably to it, I'm gonna say it's a triumph of quality over quantity. The latter two games, less so. HC's runs are satisfying rampages, but vanishingly rare and brief, and overall nowhere as lethally volatile as III's bookending masterpieces. Rocket Base is the technical best but it's too damn short! Shattered Soldier's M3 opening firefight with air+ground troops is superb, but it's the only run even approaching the deadly intensity of streets/hive, distantly at that. The rest is always agreeable and enjoyable enough, but lacking truly dangerous enemies or platforming.

I'm not okay with the reaction speed and shot velocity of III's snipers in its third stage run (here they can't be rushed, due to terrain). But the methodical sweep-through is easily more involving than all but HC/SS's best stuff; it absolutely isn't stop/start when you know what you're doing, least of all because of the rollies (they're sluggish to attack, much like in Shattered Soldier - where they're unfortunately made totally useless by a lack of enemy or terrain support).
The we get those flying grabby things and I honestly have no idea what the point of that bit is.
Same as its direct lift in Shin Contra. Rampant upshotting destruction for massive kill count, with just a hint of danger via the risk of getting a bit too frisky and being grabbed at your jump peak, or torching one that's holding you over the pit. It's fun, try it!
Then the 3-phase miniboss where all three phases are tedious and dumb.
I've got to ask here if you mean you only saw st1 Hard, or if you made it to st3 before giving up. Regardless, Phase 1? You wot m8?

Animated GIF "Notorious Bum Driller"
Spoiler
Image


Whooo! All right, everybody! Rad speedkill. Nervier than it looks, you gotta smash his face in before he can drag you into the drill, and escape isn't without risk either. Phase 2 is no design masterclass, but it has enough economical, persistent danger that I'm mortally affronted to hear it called tedious or dumb in a post rating HC+SS over III. It's shorter and deadlier than many of their clunkers - like HC's momentum-killing st1 Cyclops, or that highway tank I deliberately let spawn all its jetpackers so it has something going for it, or the infamous Jungle walker, or useless Wacky Professor Experiment Arena... or SS's god-awful m2 biker troupe, or that limp m3 eel, or the paint-drying first phase of m3's crawler tank, or the m4 "learn to speedkill it with charged flamethrower or so help me god, replayers" ski-mech). There's an absolute smorgasbord of HC/SS bosses that fall below the modest bar set by III's transitional climb.

As for Phase 3: if you have some means of making the feinting, chasing, multi-hitting Hard variant of this guy tedious or dumb, the entire Contra III Hard Mode Fanciers community is waiting for your expertise. And so am I! Post strats/replays/insights pls.
Anyway ultimately C4 and Shattered Soldier are the best, even though you are hideous in one and have a pulled hamstring in the other. In that sense, Hard Corps is the most "complete package" even though it's not as solid as those two.
I will always and forever believe that were a talented, perceptive editor to reassemble Hard Corps' best material, the result would be a game at least as good as CIII. With a little weapon tweaking, undoubtedly superior. Unfortunately Nakazato was going for replay via "cool stuff to see," not "deadly stuff to master," and the game's best stuff was scattered among others of wildly varying quality. Generally okay... more than occasionally questionable... at a few spots, astonishingly poor by any standard let alone III's. Shin Contra ditched the sightseeing but ended up in roughly the same place, for reasons (this post has gone on long enough already, will elaborate if asked).
Last edited by BIL on Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Volteccer_Jack wrote: but I did play through the first stage, and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It was the Hell of the Fixed Snipers but otherwise unremarkable.
It's all about the fundamentals.

-Omnipresent random elements forcing reaction
-Variety of different types of enemies (snipers, bomb throwers, underground turrets) positioned to require a different action to take out.
-Terrain variety, lots of platforms to jump onto so you're not always just holding right. A good route will make use of them.
-Flashy setpieces (the tank) which actually have some finesse (timing the tank shot right to instant kill the second gunwall)

So basically it brings everything I like. Chaos. Variety. Pace. Speed. Etc.

The second half is far from worthless either, though it might be less fun if you're trying to "play it safe". Dashing through the firestorm as fast as possible, without stopping to wait for anything but the fire arc, is intense, brief, and a great platforming focused breath of fresh air from the constant combat of the opening. It's only flaw is that it's entirely static, but the same could be said about 90% of Shattered Soldier.
Volteccer_Jack wrote: It starts with nothing happening excepting dumb rolling things that encourage me to halt forward movement every time a new enemy appears. The we get those flying grabby things and I honestly have no idea what the point of that bit is. Then the 3-phase miniboss where all three phases are tedious and dumb.
The snipers + pits + rolleys are actually quite dangerous on hard, and can and will take many a life. The flies are fairly nervy on hard mode, moreso if you're going for one of the "risky" weapon combos.

Subjective opinions are fine and all, but if you honestly think the deadly, brutally quick, and unpredictable (to the point of fucking up speed runners, as BIL has pointed out) final phase of the walker mini-boss is "tedious and dumb" then I think I'm going to have to revoke your taskforce membership Image

I'll concede that Walkers phase 2 (when he climbs up the wall) is the games biggest blemish, but considering it lasts only a few seconds (far shorter than similar mistakes from Hardcorps*, Contra 4, and Shattered Soldier) I have a hard time caring.


*seriously though, the downtime spent watching dead eye joe crawl up the cooridoors in the jungle stage might be nearly as long as the entirety of stage 3 in c3. And that's assuming you don't follow it up with the doctor boss fight, where you can literally stand in place and shoot from the side of the screen for half the battle.
Volteccer_Jack wrote:The final stage is okay but doesn't do anything I can't get from most of the other games.
It's far more then okay, and I can't think of any other final in the other games that come close.

The intro with the dashing, jumping zakos is insane. At least on hard. The closest analogue is Hardcorps alien lair runner chickens, and Super Contra's lair. But Hardcorp's chickens are hamstringed by a lack of terrain variation which both hurts variety and makes it easy to keep them at bay. And Super is slow as fuck (arguably what makes the game different and characterful, but it can't match C3's laser speed either way) and suffer from a host of other issues that dampen the fun.

The boss rush itself is one of the most well balanced in the series. Every encounter ('cept the xeno hawk) has a noticeable rng pattern to keep you on the edge of your seat. I can't think of a single other finalie in the series (or in any other) that's so consistently intense.



But honestly, if you haven't cleared past stage 3 on hard, then you really don't know much about the game. Come back when you're a real soldier, rookie.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 20286
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Squire Grooktook wrote:It's only flaw is that it's entirely static
Not quite! :O At least I don't think. That rascally Gradius-recalling BUBBLER PIT can sometimes be nice, or sometimes launch a high-velocity lump of molten asphalt right at me bum! Aggressively blanketing with C+C will always work but I don't trust the bugger!
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Oh ha, I was always thought there might be a route for skirting through and shooting downward before any of them can reach you, but I might have been misremembering there.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
Volteccer_Jack
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:55 pm

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

Squire Grooktook wrote:It's all about the fundamentals.

-Omnipresent random elements forcing reaction
-Variety of different types of enemies (snipers, bomb throwers, underground turrets) positioned to require a different action to take out.
-Terrain variety, lots of platforms to jump onto so you're not always just holding right. A good route will make use of them.
-Flashy setpieces (the tank) which actually have some finesse (timing the tank shot right to instant kill the second gunwall)

So basically it brings everything I like. Chaos. Variety. Pace. Speed. Etc
Uh. I just walked right and shot stuff, occasionally turning left or jumping, exactly like in every Contra opening stage. I seriously don't know what you guys are on about. Although frustratingly, picking up the spread gun actually makes it harder due to CIII's idiotic "autofire" fucking with your ability to turn around. And to say it has better variety in terrain or enemies than C4 is flatly outrageous.

BTW, I was not even aware that one-shotting the gunwall required any timing. It pretty much just seemed like a really lame time-wasting imitation of Hard Corps' battering ram intro and the stage would be significantly improved by removing it and giving me more actual stage before the meatball invasion.
The snipers + pits + rolleys are actually quite dangerous on hard, and can and will take many a life.
Just stop moving right the instant a new enemy appears on the screen and don't continue until that enemy is dead. Now that section is nearly impossible to die in. You're welcome. Anyway the only hard part is that spot with like 3 rollies and a sniper in close proximity, and then only because the rollies take soooo long to do anything that you don't have room to move while the sniper takes potshots.
Subjective opinions are fine and all, but if you honestly think the deadly, brutally quick, and unpredictable (to the point of fucking up speed runners, as BIL has pointed out) final phase of the walker mini-boss is "tedious and dumb" then I think I'm going to have to revoke your taskforce membership
I mean I guess if you're speedrunning it probably isn't terrible since you aren't wasting huge amounts of time tediously luring it to the position where you can safely get a few shots in before repeating the tedious luring.
If the snipers are giving you hell you're playing terribly
Well they were by far the most threatening thing prior to that dumb stage 3 miniboss's last phase. *shrug*
"Don't worry about quality. I've got quantity!"
User avatar
Squire Grooktook
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Volteccer_Jack wrote: Uh. I just walked right and shot stuff, occasionally turning left or jumping, exactly like in every Contra opening stage. I seriously don't know what you guys are on about.
Volteccer_Jack wrote: Just stop moving right the instant a new enemy appears on the screen and don't continue until that enemy is dead. Now that section is nearly impossible to die in. You're welcome.
Volteccer_Jack wrote:I mean I guess if you're speedrunning it probably isn't terrible since you aren't wasting huge amounts of time tediously luring it to the position where you can safely get a few shots in before repeating the tedious luring.
Sounds like you're playing on normal or something. Stage 1 still takes lives from me here and there, years after 1lc'ing it, and there's no such "slow strat" on the stage 3 miniboss that I know of. That thing will track you like a motherfucker on hard.
Squire Grooktook wrote: Come back when you're a real soldier, rookie.
*also stage 1 of Contra 4 may have some impressive terrain variety, but outside of the exploding bridge section, it's not nearly as intense or threatening. Slow zako's are slow, and most of the dangerous turrets and snipers are easily picked off from afar, lacking the "pressure" of C3's ever encroaching waves.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 20286
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs

Post by BIL »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:BTW, I was not even aware that one-shotting the gunwall required any timing. It pretty much just seemed like a really lame time-wasting imitation of Hard Corps' battering ram intro and the stage would be significantly improved by removing it and giving me more actual stage before the meatball invasion.
I actually wasn't either - I just roll up in the tank and let rip, bringing the whole thing down and ending the sequence in one swoop. I'm still surprised you'd prefer a cutscene of the protagonist vehicularly fucking up some zako and a midboss to actually vehicularly fucking up some zako and a midboss, tbh. I know the tank's a lot slower than the Hard Corps MurderBago, but in your (still extremely brief) time together it makes the screen shudder while you drive, steamrolls fucking everything, and fires an enormous cannon that brings down a giant wall and kills the prick hiding atop it in one almighty shot!

Eh, I guess it's a playable cutscene but I'm ok with those if they're short and satisfying (which this one is!)
I mean I guess if you're speedrunning it probably isn't terrible since you aren't wasting huge amounts of time tediously luring it to the position where you can safely get a few shots in before repeating the tedious luring.
Again, are we talking about the Normal or Hard version? They're not remotely comparable. The latter's so much more aggressive and relentless with its exclusive rebound/chase behaviour, it's one of III/Hard's many bosses where "speedrunning" (ie killing it before it kills you) is synonymous with survival.

Just the sort of enduring intensity HC and SS are much lower on, incidentally! (I do genuinely enjoy speed-demolishing the latter with excellent charge shot technique, but it's never for any particular survival incentive; often, I'm cramming in the charge shots to cancel redundant pattern cycles)

If you're referring to Hard, and you've got some easy-going safe tech... well first, congratulations! And second, uh, why? There's a few HC/SS bosses I find numbingly tedious that are 110% impossible to kill any faster, so I can't relate.
Well they were by far the most threatening thing prior to that dumb stage 3 miniboss's last phase. *shrug*
If you're running to the right and shooting stuff they shouldn't be much of a problem at all, let alone a hell of one. :/ Uppers miss an advancing player by default, lowers are an easy jumping downshot. I guess if you can handle the stage consistently you've got some method figured out, but it sounds odd they're what stood out to you and not the constant risk of runners spawning/shooting at the worst times.
Post Reply